Kung fu vs. mma [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Quick step

10-26-2004, 11:31 AM

At first, I believed that the UFC was representative of true street fighting. But now, having talked to some Sifus, I think that kung fu and other stand up martial arts might work in a real fight also.

Before the UFC, no one said that grappling was more realistic for real fighting. People fought for thousands of years, and no one came to that conclusion.

And I've seen Cung Le fight; he knows how to deal with takedowns, and how to perform them.

Even in the early UFCs, when a striker was matched up against another striker, the fight consisted mostly of blows. After clinching, the fighters would separate, and if they went to the ground, they would get back to their feet.

The most impressive thing about traditional martial arts is the ability of the practitioners to break lots of boards and bricks. I'm sure they would break bones in a real fight.

MasterKiller

10-26-2004, 11:37 AM

3.2

lkfmdc

10-26-2004, 11:46 AM

When I first heard about the UFC, I was convinced someone was going to die.... I didn't watch the first three though because I didn't want to waste the money...

Someone later gave me a copy of the first three. My very first observation, despite how open the rules were, most of the participants stuck to their respective art formats, or at least to the stereotype of their art....

The Muay Thai guy had absolutely no grappling skill, he got taken down by a huge Judo guy who suddenly realized he could elbow, it was over quickly

The super ninja tried his famous spinning fall on his back, good for a score in the self defense division of an open tournament, fancy takedown, the karate guy starred at someone lying on his back in front of him and punched him ten million times

The American rules KB dude basicly kickboxed as per American rules

Ken Shamrock disappointed me, I had read about how "shootfighting" was a complete martial art, a month later I met a guy from the old UWF who explained how it was all worked pro wrestling

The only guy who was well rounded and used different tools was Royce Gracie, he obviously knew submssions and wrestling, but he also used kicks, elbows, head butts, knees, etc....

All in all, the early UFC's were pathetic....

Today's MMA fighter trains and fights the way martial arts were supposed to be, ie blanced between striking and grappling, standing and ground. They understand that it's also about attributes, strength and conditioning....

A lot of traditional types still want to talk about "the rules" and how deadly some things are, fact remains, all that stuff was legal in early days, NO ONE USED THEM....

Why didn't the traditional Okinawan Karate dude use some of those things? Or the karate dude? Or the many KF people who came and went? They were perfectly legal back then, the early UFC had no protective equipment...

They didn't use them because usually they were on their backs eating punches before they could think...

Suntzu

10-26-2004, 11:51 AM

Pride is more entertaining............. oh.... and..........

-1.0

red5angel

10-26-2004, 12:45 PM

A lot of traditional types still want to talk about "the rules" and how deadly some things are, fact remains, all that stuff was legal in early days, NO ONE USED THEM....

I"m not one to usually cop the excuse that the rules slow a person down. However, to be fair I think your logic is flawed. While it may have been legal to eye gouge, or break limbs/joints - and somehow I seriously doubt it was legal - anyone with an ounce of smarts knows they would be in huge trouble for doing it. Now if you went into a tournemant knowing those things were condoned, and you werne't going to get into trouble for doing them.....

SifuAbel

10-26-2004, 01:13 PM

OMG, some body got a DNA sample from the burnt carcass of the last dead horse, separated the live cells, cloned another horse, watched it grow, let it come to maturity and then
PROCEEDED TO BEAT IT TO DEATH , AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

p.s. TMA of any kind has more than just the "eyegouge", its such a rediculous thing to cling to. As Ross said. the main weakness was their being used to a certain rule set. They couldn't get it that they were out of their paradigm. Its a fighters main weakness, even for an MMAer. Since time immemorial, its been the same way, people get used to something and some smarty pants comes around and fights outside the box. Entire styles have been based on this practice.

lkfmdc

10-26-2004, 01:18 PM

oh come on Abel, it isn't that bad :D

regarding original UFC rules, only biting and eye gouging were illegal.... how many martial arts are so dependent upon these two tactics and how many martial artists actually practice these techniques? It's a lame excuse

As for joint breaking, it was perfectly legal, and Royce broke an arm (maybe two)

SifuAbel

10-26-2004, 01:21 PM

edit above

red5angel

10-26-2004, 01:25 PM

able - I just use the eye gouge example cause it's the most popular.....

regarding original UFC rules, only biting and eye gouging were illegal.... how many martial arts are so dependent upon these two tactics and how many martial artists actually practice these techniques? It's a lame excuse

I beg to differ. Even if joint breaking or bone breaking weren't in the rules, do you believe anyone who entered those competitions felt that they were still "legal"? When you go to a tournemant Ross, do you see in the rules anything about not using guns, knives, tanks, bombs or nuclear weapons? Cause if there ain't a rule against it why not use them?

MasterKiller

10-26-2004, 01:35 PM

I doubt if any professional fighter knowingly steps into a ring without knowing precisely what is and isn't allowed within the context of the fight.

SifuAbel

10-26-2004, 01:36 PM

red, your arguement is non sequitur.

And, eye gouging isn't "popular" it just been repeated so many times. Its one of those "hundreth monkey" situations that the thing has become a cliche.

Quick step

10-26-2004, 08:40 PM

lkfmdc, I was hoping you would respond. You probably don't remember me, but we exchanged posts briefly on www.mma.tv.

I was banned shortly after, but I read some of the long arguments you had with Your Father and the bjj people.

Do you think that San Da might become successful in mixed martial arts? I happened to see Cung Le in K-1 on ESPN 2. Do you think he could beat someone like Frank Shamrock?

And what do you think about pitting boxing against San Da? What is your opinion on pitting someone like Roy Jones Jr. or Antonio Tarver against Cung Le? (They are light heavyweights, right?)

SPJ

10-26-2004, 08:50 PM

San Da people;

Please think big and really really big.

MMA stopped growing once they decided to be set with MT+BJJ.

However, there are so many and many MA's out there.

Think BIIIIIIIII--------G.

:D

red5angel

10-27-2004, 07:39 AM

actually able, go back and read my statment and you'll see it's perfectly logical within the framework of the conversation.

Ross claims that the "too deadly for the ring/rules" excuse is invalid, since in the "old days" of NHB fighting, EVERYTHING was legal, since there "were no rules"

I claim that that is incorrect since society itself places rules on a sporting event of this fashion. Even though it doesn't say I can't kill my opponent in combat to win the match, I know it's illegal according to my societies rules to kill my opponent, orotherwise maim him or use excessive force to accomplish my goals.
but thank you for playing...please come again.

MoreMisfortune

10-27-2004, 07:44 AM

WOW THIS IS A REALLY GOOD THREAD

MasterKiller

10-27-2004, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by red5angel
I claim that that is incorrect since society itself places rules on a sporting event of this fashion. Even though it doesn't say I can't kill my opponent in combat to win the match, I know it's illegal according to my societies rules to kill my opponent, orotherwise maim him or use excessive force to accomplish my goals.
but thank you for playing...please come again. So when Royce was breaking arms, to what societal norms was he subscribing?

red5angel

10-27-2004, 08:00 AM

on example does not set a general rule. Breaks happen all the time in NHB, for various reasons and as far as I know legal repercussions are almost non existant, I assume because they sign a waiver and know what they are getting into. Not tapping out is essentially asking to have something broken.
The broader point is that I believe Ross' assumption that because there "were no rules" in NHB to start with that the excuse that some peoples arts are too deadly does not apply. I'm not defending that excuse by any means, I believe for the most part that any art could be adapted if trained properly for any environment, generally speaking.

Knifefighter

10-27-2004, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by SPJ
San Da people;

Please think big and really really big.

MMA stopped growing once they decided to be set with MT+BJJ.

However, there are so many and many MA's out there.

Think BIIIIIIIII--------G.

:D Many MMA fighters have backgrounds in many of these other martial arts. There is a reason the majority of them have chosen BJJ, boxing, wrestling, and Muay Thai.

lkfmdc

10-27-2004, 10:36 AM

Muay Thai has become popular in MMA because it has the same close minded attitude that BJJ has, ie "we are the only way", so the two camps seem to get along together.....

If you think about it though logically MT has no wrestling, all the basic takedowns and trips are actually illegal. MT also teaches you to have no base, they stay so light (to kick) that they are very easy to pick up... San Da people figured this out a long time ago

San Da has certainly made it's mark in MMA. The best example is Fedor, whose grappling is Sambo but his stand up coach is San Da

Water Dragon

10-27-2004, 10:41 AM

This topic reminds me of the girl you used to date back in High School. You've had it enough to know it's no good, but it's been a while, so you decide to check it out as it might have gotten a little more interesting. Then you find out it still can't give head worth a **** and wonder wtf you were thinking trying to get involved in that $hit again.

Suntzu

10-27-2004, 10:53 AM

H2O has found his little black book and called the correct to see what she's been up to lately.......

Shaolinlueb

10-27-2004, 11:12 AM

kung fu owns all, :D

ShaolinTiger00

10-27-2004, 11:22 AM

The best example is Fedor, whose grappling is Sambo but his stand up coach is San Da

Source? I'd like to see this info.

Knifefighter

10-27-2004, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Source? I'd like to see this info. As would I.

What I'd also like to know is who taught him how to hit on the ground. That's the guy everyone should be learning that part of the game from.

Nick Forrer

10-27-2004, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
As would I.

What I'd also like to know is who taught him how to hit on the ground. That's the guy everyone should be learning that part of the game from.

yeah but he needs to work on the flying headbutt when guard passing

ShaolinTiger00

10-27-2004, 12:02 PM

That's the guy everyone should be learning that part of the game from.

Actually KF, as a "sophisticated ground and pound" guy, my coaches have specific "fedor drills" that we use including wrist control, cross tie ups, pressure base etc..

lkfmdc

10-27-2004, 12:22 PM

I lost the link to Fedor's old web site, but the guy on there is the same guy who brought the Russian team to teh worlds in '99, Fedor is also a member of the Draka Federation, which was once the Russian Sanshou Union....

You don't have to believe me of course :rolleyes:

The guy who beat Cung in HK in 99 also fought in Pride, fought one of the MT guys from Holland whose name escapes me, Russian didn't work enough knees and sat there for too many, but it was still a great match

There are other examples, like Wonderlay fighting in the IVC in Brazil...

ShaolinTiger00

10-27-2004, 12:31 PM

You don't have to believe me of course

Put the inferiority complex aside for 2 seconds little man, I was just asking for your source so that I could research it.

lkfmdc

10-27-2004, 12:35 PM

boo hoo, you're being mean to me :mad:

GunnedDownAtrocity

10-27-2004, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
This topic reminds me of the girl you used to date back in High School. You've had it enough to know it's no good, but it's been a while, so you decide to check it out as it might have gotten a little more interesting. Then you find out it still can't give head worth a **** and wonder wtf you were thinking trying to get involved in that $hit again.

that was gold.

SPJ

10-27-2004, 09:53 PM

This is from what I heard. Meaning hear and say.

San Da and Wushu are still evloving.

No offense to professional fighters and long time martial arts in the forum.

Here are some grass root info heard and said.

Due to long learning time of most TMCA, it is very difficult to popularize CMA in the general public.

San Da is to introduce the public to CMA as a sports. Whoever wants to participate may do so. San Da has shorter learning time to have fun and spar. It is a sport with simple rules so that everybody may enjoy. Thus build huge support from common people.

Most Chinese people think MA are reserved to the elite and the servicemen.

Wushu is to "preserve" the "forms" in the context of gym competition for its "intactness" and "flowness".

On the other hand, San Da is also a serious or professional fight. How do you differentiate San Da from MMA?

The idea is that San Da= MMA +Kung Fu. San Da is hopefully to evolve all TCMA's into a sports. That is the big question. How? That is the challenge for all TCMA schools. San Da has to come up with rules that would allow all schools to compete on the same level.

The purpose of San Da is that you may see Xing Yi Punch (but not the fatal one), Ba Gua push, pull and throws, Tai Ji throws, Mantis throws, etc. and not the fatal moves. So it is up to TCMAer's to come up with "sports" version of their respective arts within the confines of the rules.

San Da is a modern sports version of Lei Tai (fighting platform).

In order to have more Wushu's, all TCMA schools have competition forms, Tai Ji, Ba Gua, Xing Yi, Pi Gua, Ba Ji, Mantis, on and on. Wushu forms are being compiled since the mid 1990's and some as early as in the '50.

In short, San Da games to compete and have fun and Wushu to compile and preserve CMA in "forms".

Phew, I try to cover a lot in a single post.

All the Wushu forms are now included in general MA classes in China. And all the teachers from China also teach Wushu form in addition to traditional forms.

For example, if the teacher is from China, he will teach Tai Ji Wushu form in addition to old forms. So that his or her students want to compete in Wushu, they may do so.

San Da is unfortunately pretty much standing alone without the affections of TCMAer's.

:)

SifuAbel

10-28-2004, 12:03 AM

Apparently the new cloned horse, which has now been brutally beaten to death, has now been incinerated, the ashes ground in to a fine powder, and is now being smoked by hippies in san fransisco.

The dead horse cycle continues...................

Next, people will build a time machine and continually bring back the horse seconds before it was brought back the last time and brutally beat it to death Over and Over again.

norther practitioner

10-28-2004, 03:02 AM

The funniest thing about Abel's post.... It could be on any of about 10 current threads on this forum.

SevenStar

10-28-2004, 03:53 AM

I can't believe this thread stayed alive so long - but then again, I guess it shouldn't surprise me. Since it's still here, I figured I'd read it and add my 2 pesos:

Originally posted by red5angel
I"m not one to usually cop the excuse that the rules slow a person down. However, to be fair I think your logic is flawed. While it may have been legal to eye gouge, or break limbs/joints - and somehow I seriously doubt it was legal - anyone with an ounce of smarts knows they would be in huge trouble for doing it. Now if you went into a tournemant knowing those things were condoned, and you werne't going to get into trouble for doing them.....

I've actually talked to royce about this. he told me that eye gouges were indeed alolowable - you would get some type of small infraction, but you would not be DQed. so, for example, if you and I were fighting and I gouged you, making you unable to continue, I would get a point taken, but I would still win the fight. for such a penalty, you would be fined. fish hooking was also allowed in the early ufcs - it would draw a fine, but was allowed.

SevenStar

10-28-2004, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by SPJ
San Da people;

Please think big and really really big.

MMA stopped growing once they decided to be set with MT+BJJ.

However, there are so many and many MA's out there.

Think BIIIIIIIII--------G.

:D

Why would you think so? the spectrum goes beyond mt and bjj - it's striking and grappling in general. could be mt and bjj, wrestling and boxing, judo and mt, etc.

It hasn't stopped growing at all - these people have found what works and are competing with it. Many of the fighters have a traditional background. sport arts are what they have found to be better suited. When a san da guy enters and does well, guess what? more people will look at san da as an option in mma. the thing about competitive fighting is that it adapts. at the beginning, there were tma and grapplers. then hybrid fighters. it evolves based on what's producing wins.

SPJ

10-28-2004, 06:50 AM

Agreed.

MMA as well as other combative sports or TMA will continue to grow and evolve depending on the practitioners or ring fighters.

Let me continue from my previous post.

My post is directed at events in China.

If JJJ may evolve into safer and more "efficient" Judo and Aikido for "street reality" and ring combat.

If MT and BJJ may evolve into safer MMA-do. Granted MMAer may consist something else depends on the ring combater, but for the most part, MT and BBJ are their prefered combo with reasons.

Now the question is this,

Will Tai Ji evolve to a safer or ring Tai Ji Do?

Will Ba Gua evolve into Ba Gua Do?

Will Xing Yi evolve into Xing Yi Do?

Will Mantis evolve into Mantis Do?

Will any of these become San Da Do? Safe for ring events and "street reality"?

Or San Da is actually MMA with silk Pajama's only?

Edit: "xxx" is sarcastic.

:rolleyes:

red5angel

10-28-2004, 07:00 AM

you know what get's really old? I mean as old as reading threads that have been rehashed, in my experience, a thousand times?

What really get's old is the guys who have been on the forum for a while and get the "been there, done that" attitude about threads and subject matter.
Think about it for a moment - when a new guy walks into your school and starts asking all the basic questions, or wants to talk about something you have to talk to every new guy about, do you say something like "look *******, weve talked about this a thousand times in this school already...."

As long as this forum has been around, ables attempt at humor (WD was funnier) could be applied to ANY thread that doesn't cover some current event. My guess is just about any subject under the sun as it regards TMA, CMA, MMA, or whatnot, that has been around for a ny length of time, has been touched upon a time or two.

Ray Pina

10-28-2004, 11:48 AM

My background is traditional martial arts (Isshin-Ryu, a few external Chinese MA and now internal Chinese MA) and have competed in TMA tournaments and a single San Da event (with a serious effort to train all winter and win one next summer).

San Da is leaps and bounds above TMA tournaments. You can do everything you can do in a TMA tournament but do it for real, with real power and very few limitations on targets -- actually, no limitations on targets. They say don't attack the joints but when in the ring and all that action what can you do if a kick hits a knee?

It is an extremely valuable tool, one which I am thankful exists in a very professional manner in my area and which I think should be taken advantage of by all CMA or TMA. It's a great measuring tool to see how your technique stacks up.

With that said, I have never competed in a MMA event but have played with a few people who train MMA pretty seriously. I think this is the ideal format, and what MA should be aproaching.

Forget style, bring whatever style you study -- including TCMA and San Da -- and bring it to this format of fighting. Allow elbows. Allow the action to continue once someone goes down. Go down with them and ground and pound, or stay above them and try your luck kicking them to pieces .... there is no doubt that this is more real.

For me personally, I won't consider entering a full-on MMA event until at least 2006. I need to prove to myself (and to others) that I can at least stand with San Da. And I don't mean "at least" in a negative way. Some, not all, of these guys are kicking as hard as you can kick. They have good clinching skills. They know their way around the ring. If there was one weak spot that I see in their game, it's their hands. They tend to go for the long range kick and then clinch and then throw. But this could also be because you get more points for throwing, the head gear and gloves prevent serious damage before you get clinched and thrown. And once you throw you are not committed to finsih the fight in that close range because the action breaks. But you can't take anything away from those guys. They are fighters to the core.

SifuAbel

10-28-2004, 12:14 PM

over and over and over and over and over.....................

Thats why many LEAVE the forums due to the utter monotony.

everybody wants to rule the world.................

..even if its just in their own minds.

SifuAbel

10-28-2004, 12:16 PM

san da this, MMA that, TCMA the other. It does get old.

David Jamieson

10-28-2004, 12:31 PM

Abel, I was thinking about what you said about the cloning of the dead horse from a charred dna sample and what not and I've decided that you probably watch too much CSI.

SifuAbel

10-28-2004, 12:38 PM

With 4 to choose from its hard NOT to find yourself watching at least one. I watch CSI Miami when I get homesick. And that just CBS. NBC has at least 2.

But I'm really a Sci-fi buff. Time machines etc.

Ray Pina

10-28-2004, 01:49 PM

But if you don't want to discuss san da this, TCMA that, MMA the other thing .... why are you here?

To claim who blew their nose to discover the correct on their sleave over the proper preperation of flan?

lkfmdc

10-28-2004, 02:15 PM

don't mind Abel, he's just 10,000 years old and a bit cranky today

WinterPalm

10-28-2004, 02:48 PM

I think that with the open format, the UFC did encourage individual fighters to fight each other and represent themselves as fighters. As far as foul tactics, eye gouging or whatever, even if they are allowed in a tournament fight, who would use them? Most Kung Fu has a big emphasis on training the character so you are a good person and would only use those horrible techniques against someone that was going to hurt or potentially kill you or loved ones. So the morality of not doing those things is what makes the debate useless. It was clearly fighter versus fighter and there was no style versus style because in order for that to happen, one would have to attack the other in an alley or whatever, and nothing would be barred. The rules were set so that within a specific format, more than just kickboxing or wrestling could be utilized and it came close to having more potential for people to compete without a whole mass of rules.

lkfmdc

10-28-2004, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by WinterPalm

Most Kung Fu has a big emphasis on training the character so you are a good person

:rolleyes:

red5angel

10-28-2004, 03:18 PM

So the morality of not doing those things is what makes the debate useless.

morality is purely subjective. Some people would say getting in the ring and doing what NHB type fighters do to each other is immoral. Others might say learning to fight period, is immoral.

SifuAbel

10-28-2004, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
But if you don't want to discuss san da this, TCMA that, MMA the other thing .... why are you here?

To claim who blew their nose to discover the correct on their sleave over the proper preperation of flan?

Thats just the point, I'm not "here" alot, I "come over" to see if the odd interesting thread comes along.

"don't mind Abel, he's just 10,000 years old and a bit cranky today"

I think my soul is even older than that. But yes, I'm cranky. Lots of rain in so cal. yesterday and my garage is leaking. **** stupid builders ruined it. So anyway, I'm venting..........

Ray Pina

10-29-2004, 07:06 AM

Good point Winter Palm. Where I train we don't look at any fighting format as sport, San Da, MMA or even TMA tournament, we view it as kill or be killed.

With that said, we also have the though that I'm man enough to fight you, and won't kick your balls or poke your eye. We store the bio weapons for like you said, when the nitty gets to the titty.

WinterPalm

10-29-2004, 05:52 PM

Obviously sparring without trying to kill the person is integral to achieve or train the basic delivery system. Like has been said that without a basic delivery system, the person lacks a foundation to combat skills, this goes along with what has been said about the whloe "I can gouge your eyes if you attack me or kick you in the groin" argument; the basic argument being there is little difference in a well placed normal punch and say a phoenix eye punch. But, although I agree that one still has to have skill to hit with a basic attack to be able to hit with a more aggressive and potentially damaging attack, there is still the manner of mind set. If a fighter has no training in techniques, or knowledge of application of techniques that can kill or maim or whatever, they also may lack the necessary mind frame to actually attempt to really hurt someone with a strike or choke or whatever that you know will really hurt.
This is like all the postering of animals and intimidation fators of fighting including sparring. So when a kung fu person does not use these techniques and mindsets, because you must naturally have the availability of training and knowledge that if the situation gets out of hand, you can resort to "ungentlemanly" techniques. In a competition this is rarely going to be seen and if it were, the person may win if the attack was allowed by the judges but the condemnation by not only their peers and Sifu, but all the other people that view tournament as a testing ground for skill of fighting derived from training. That is not the point of a tournament.
I understand that many other styles have similar techniques or at least ones that kill or damage a person, but the application of a choke hold or arm bar is never taken to the extreme because the person can tap out. Is this not the same as those karate tournaments where if a person would have hit the target in the way they aimed for but pulled the punch they would have killed the guy? Sort of like if I had gone through with that technique I would have broken your arm or made you pass out? One is relying on a different approach to anatomical dissertation, that is, on the ability to damage a person through striking involving accuracy and weakness. The other is based on the leverage assertion that if I pull this arm this way long enough, it will potentially break.

I think both are good but one seems easier to replicate in a gentlemanly fashion without seriously hurting the other person.

Ilkdmcf: why do you roll eyes emoticon at what I said? Is it false for your style of kung fu? Forgive me if I assumed it was a universal characteristic of kung fu.

Knifefighter

10-29-2004, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by WinterPalm
...but the application of a choke hold or arm bar is never taken to the extreme because the person can tap out. Is this not the same as those karate tournaments where if a person would have hit the target in the way they aimed for but pulled the punch they would have killed the guy? Sort of like if I had gone through with that technique I would have broken your arm or made you pass out? One is relying on a different approach to anatomical dissertation, that is, on the ability to damage a person through striking involving accuracy and weakness. The other is based on the leverage assertion that if I pull this arm this way long enough, it will potentially break.
Not the same...
With the arm or leg lock, the submission is being applied with full force and is not stopped until the opponent taps. If the opponent doesn't tap in time he gets his leg or arm cranked or broken. The force applied is the same as when it is being applied for real. The difference when you do it for real is that you crank it back and forth after it snaps.

When pulling a punch, you are doing it quit differently than you would do if you were to actually make contact and strike through the opponent.

SevenStar

10-30-2004, 07:34 AM

knife has just broken the arm of the correct because it didn't tap in time.

WinterPalm

10-30-2004, 01:37 PM

Sevenstar has collapsed the right lung of the correct because he didn't pull his phoenix eye punch soon enough.:D

Quick step

10-30-2004, 06:44 PM

People complain about my choice of thread topic. However, I made two other threads on my first day. I got 4 replies to one thread, on the psi of martial artists, and 0 replies on hand speed and physics. You all can see how many replies this thread has.

If you don't like the topic, please suggest better topics for new people such as myself. Perhaps you can have those suggested listed for every new person when they register.

Personally, I'm confused now if Royce Gracie would beat current UFC fighters, such as Randy Couture, Phil Baroni, Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, and other fighters under 205 lbs., under the old format with almost no rules. Many of the fighters in the early UFCs knew both striking and submissions, but their striking did them no good against the takedowns of the pure grapplers. An example of such a match up was Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shamrock.

For that matter, could Royce Gracie beat heavyweight fighters, such as Josh Barnett, Tim Sylvia, Wes Sims, or Ricco Rodriguez?

It does not have to be Royce Gracie himself, but simply a one-dimensional BJJ stylist. Can the current fighters beat the old strategy of clinch, takedown, and submission? Did striking return only because of the new format, with rules?

ShaolinTiger00

10-30-2004, 07:25 PM

Many of the fighters in the early UFCs knew both striking and submissions, but their striking did them no good against the takedowns of the pure grapplers. An example of such a match up was Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shamrock.

Actually Ken was one of the few who had any cross training. Almost every early fighter was very one dimensional. and in this situation it was very obvious that groundfighters won consistently.

The more crosstraining, the more probabliity that a fighter could keep the fight on his feet, dominate a clinch, and defend on the ground.

Did striking return only because of the new format, with rules?.

Yes and no. Yes because of time limits, gloves, judge's descisions ( which almost always favor an agressive striker even though he may not have dominated the fight) No. because strikers have gotten better, and more savvy. They understand that the key to sucessful striking is avoiding takedowns and being dominant in the clinch. If the opponent isn't very good at takedowns, he's in for a long night vs. a sprawl n' brawl fighter.

lkfmdc

10-30-2004, 10:18 PM

Rickson Gracie is considered one of the top people in Brazilian Jujitsu and is a reliable source on "vale tudo"/MMA

He stated rather directly in Black Belt magazine, and has also in person many times a rather logical observation

A striker who has no grappling will not be able to strike. A striker who has even the most basic grappling (clinch, penetration block, sprawl, etc) becomes dangerous. A guy who can grapple and strike is very dangerous

Too bad a lot of the BJJ people never bothered to take note of this observation

lkfmdc

10-30-2004, 10:20 PM

Also, you might want to look at keith Hackney vs Royce some time from an early UFC

Keith was a normal guy who took part time martial arts classes (he had a 9 to 5 job, his own business he ran). He also didn't come from a very deep grappling base (white tiger kenpo). A few months of grappling prior to his UFC appearance and he gave Royce a hell of a time and landed some shots. Royce said he has never been hit so hard before (that interview was before Sakuraba broke his leg)

ShaolinTiger00

10-30-2004, 11:04 PM

Let's not get too crazy here Dave, Keith was backed in to the fence and held on for dear life while Royce worked to get him free and away from the fence for groundwork. (which he did, and then dominated him on the ground exactly as expected)

He didn't exactly go toe to toe and his one wild swinging strike was his only saving grace to keep him from avoiding the takedown so early. You know that any one in the free standing range has a "striker's chance" of catching someone with a powerful blow. even traditional artists and the untrained.

Too bad a lot of the BJJ people never bothered to take note of this observation

Every bjj guy that I've ever met seeks to close the gap with either a feint strike, a range check & level change followed by a shoot or a clinch into a throw. They're very aware of strikes and seek to get the fight down and in their favor asap. How is this not following Rickson's logic?