We need a better analogy!

[YongChun]

Since most everyone is getting tired of the swimming analogy how about searching for a better one.

For example: A piano player is a piano player whether they are playing grade one piano, or are playing concert level piano. A piano player who plays in concerts calls himself a concert pianist. Those who do martial arts are called martial artists. Those martial artists who fight are called fighters. Some fighters used to be martial artists just as some concert pianists used to be piano players. I know this can be picked apart but it's a start.

There are various ways to rate fighters: each level usually looks down upon the previous level. Fighters are level 3 and above the rest are hobbyists and sportsmen.

Level 1:
Practice forms, do drills, do sparring < 100%

Level2:
Practice forms, do drills, do sparring = 100%

Level 3:
Fight professionally in the ring against the Thais, against BJJ, against Western boxing.

Level 4:
Fight for your life on the street, in bars against a pack of Hell’s Angels, in prison.

Level 5:
Fight in a war or as a mercenary or paid assassin or bounty hunter.

Level 1 has been labeled the dry land swimming category.
Level 2 has been called the swimmer category and Terence said he is in level 2.

Now in the swimming analogy, what is level 3,4 and 5?

Maybe:

Level 3:
Swimmers who swim in the wild ocean with the sharks or swimmers who rescue other people or swimmers who compete in the Olympics.

Level 4:
Swimmers who swim in storms and fight with sharks.

Level 5:
Swimmers who jump of high cliffs, fight with sharks, fight with Pihrana, or fight underwater with knives, blowguns and anything else.

Since dry land swimming doesn’t relate at all to what most people do, how about

1. Someone who does mathematics all the time, maybe enters math contests, solves difficult problems vs. the professional engineer who puts his mathematics to use to construct bridges, designs airplanes, and makes atomic bombs.
2. Someone who plays tag football all his life vs someone who plays tackle football.
3. Someone who plays popular piano in bars vs someone who plays Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin in a concert.

Those people all do the same thing but with different emphasis, professionalism, intent and whatever. But dry land swimmers don’t swim at all. So this is a poor ill-conceived analogy.

Each level demands a different kind of training. Most people fall into levels 1 or 2 no matter what the activity.

Perhaps the type of training required for each level can be discussed?

[Ernie]

I like level 4 =)
Or better yet train as if you’re going to have to survive a level 4 environment

But ray you cant quantify a fighter , you can train in the proven methods that produce people with fighting skill [ now define fighting skill in your mind ]
And not just one or two mythical people but a wide range of people from all walks of life

Unless we are at war then we are just training , that training will produce certain levels of efficacy [ insert your definition of efficient ]

Some demand more of themselves and thus turn up the heat and the methods , they will be obviously better
Some don’t take it up to that level and they will not have the same amount of combat skill , now they might have other skills at a higher level but the end result will not be the same as one that trains at a more extreme level

The piano thing doesn’t work for me because music is a subjective thing but combative skill is easily measured tested and refined

But in the end do what makes you happy and be honest don’t reach outside yourself

I know my limitations , I know I can’t get in the ring with a pro anything and survive no matter how much theory and talking and reading and forms and chi sau I do , this is a different level of commitment

To believe or say anything else is to lie to yourself really

Even as my Wing chun skill grows every year I still can’t except to get in and mix it up with pro level people there conditioned to a higher level there mind and body are dialed in for one task

But you can learn from there hard work and training methods and water it down play with it experiment and enjoy the process , just don’t fool yourself into thinking wing chun rules and all will fall in it’s mighty presence

[YongChun]

Ernie,

I agree with that 100% well put.

Ray

[anerlich]

I think dry land swimming is a great analogy and hard to improve on.

The problem with it is it gets boring and loses its impact after you've heard it several thousand times from all sorts of sources.

[AmanuJRY]

I agree with Andrew, the swimming analogy is good, just overused.

I do like using music as an analogy as well.

[Block]

Hi Guys,

I've been off the forum for some time so I'm not really up to date with all the discussions. Forgive me if this has been covered before but it seems to me that the swimming analogy has one fundamental flaw.

That is, if you throw a person into water and they have never swum before (excluding the water babies phenomenon which you could read something else into I guess) then that person WILL drown.

However, a person who has never been taught how to fight or never experienced a fighting situation before can potentially beat their opponent, even if that opponent is bigger, better, stronger or fitter.

I know you guys recognise that the above situation obviously does arise from time to time but do we simply dismiss these types of examples as one offs as the person could probably not reproduce the result if they wanted to.

Or on the other hand are there people who are just natural swimmers?

Cheers
Block

[anerlich]

The dry land swimming analogy refers more to teachers and students of fighting/swimming.

The central arguments are whether you can be taught to fight orswim by someone who claims ot be an "expert" on swimming theory but has never actually been in the water or fought for real themselves;

and,

Whether practicing strokes or techniques on dry land will be of any help when you actually get in the water.

"Or on the other hand are there people who are just natural swimmers?"

I don't know if the experiment has ever been tried (if I were a non-swimmer I wouldn't volunteer); most people these days in rich countries are taught to swim as kids, and in water, due to the proven nature of the approach, and the manifest common sense of the approach.

If we can assume for a moment that swimming is like fighting, i.e. everyone can do it to some small degree without tuition, the questions don't disappear, only change, to:

Will your performance improve quicker, or at all, if you learn to swim on dry land instead of in water?

Will you improve quicker, or at all, if taught by a dry land expert or someone with the same teaching ability who swims daily?

[Miles Teg]

Im not a fan of the whole swimming analogy in the way it has been presented in other threads, but it is relevant depending on how you look at it and what you consider the goal to be.

First up what is the act of swimimg in the water. Is it fighting or sparring. The 2 need to be separated. If it is fighting then sparring is also dry water training.

The way I think the swimming analogy is really relevant is when we consider a person who wants to be a good swimmer but lives in the middle of Africa. It is not that easy to come across a pool of water where he lives. When he finally gets an opportunity to find a pool of water he runs the risk of getting attacked by crocs or snakes. This is like it is with fighting. The opportunities are not so available these days and when they are there is a very real risk of getting hurt by human crocs or snakes.

My conclusion being: we can only do dry water training to various levels of intensity to prepare our selves for the real water.

And as someone asked above, it is possible to learn how to swim by being thrown in. Just as it is possible to be able to fight by just getting in real fights. But there are probably limits to how skilled you get without instruction. You want to be an olympic swimmer or the best fighter around then you're going to need some good quality instruction.

[YongChun]

I have tried just having people fight in the past from day one but it never produces quality martial arts. It just produced knee jerk stiff reactions, awkward looking movements, little control and always a lack of relaxation because the person was just in survival mode. Yet this is the model proposed by Terence. From my experience it is a very poor way to teach beginners any martial art. After the swim or sink approach countless hours if not years are required to get rid of bad habits. Other people may have different experiences.

Ray

[Ernie]

people tend to reach for extremes when they really don't know
like tossing some one into water that can't swim well guess what brainiac
that's what happens when you get attacked and have not dealt with that type of pressure emotional or physical

if that type of intense pressure is not part of your training then stop pretending like it will magically all work out like the kung fu spirit of the dead greats will suddenly take over your body and you will kick ass

you won't you will freeze and choke and maybe die

stop hanging on to what other people have done like it will be the same for you

while you’re at it there is no easter bunny or Santa clause

except you are not really training for an intense combative moment
you are not preparing for anything near that

you are simply enjoying your level of training stop making it more then what it is

with all the clever metaphors and circle runing arguments if your not getting in and hardcore emotional and physical environment then YOU ARE NOT PREPARINGING FOR ONE

and that's just fine be honest with yourself get off the hype and be true

man thus argument is getting ridicules

some times smart people are really stupid

let the ego go

I for one have trained at that extreme level fighting sparring weapons multiple opponents and guess what it is very hard to maintain it takes allot

but when your there and your one man you can just walk through the average martial artist dreamer like a piece of paper

but it is a very very hard road to maintain

it's been about 2 years for me and though my wing Chun has grown I was much more dangerous back then plain and simple
was not the funniest person to be around

not a healthy mind set was hurt half the time
had no social life trained all the time

if I was not training I was doing the solo prep work
running , sprints ,gym work plyo's stretching bag work

the rest sparring in the ring in the street at night in alleys
up at dawn to run then spar then hit the gym then spar at night

I don't miss that

and even through all that tons of people could kick my but there were just better

worked harder , meaner , tougher

that is life

it amazes me that people just cant be honest and say there are simply doing a hobby and not try and make it out to be *real* combat

in the process of trying to be clever you just seem so lost and silly

everybody is not going to be a star , it’s ok to be a regular person and admit the average boxer can beat you down , he works harder then you plain and simple
most traditional martial artist cant fight there way out of a paper bag
if all you can do is name like 4 people [and I’m being generous ] in all of the arts history , guys what it’s not you and those are not great results

if you want to fight then train with some one who has and fight get in the , challenge people on the street go to prison and take on the biggest baddest dude you can find , grab a gun go to irag jump in a trench and go hand to hand stop speculating on what if’s

admit it most of us are not fighters [ killers] and will never be and we don’t have the right to speak on what we have no experience with

now after 2 hours of sparring and 3 glasses of a very good merlot my rant is over please resume your senseless conversation

[Block]

Hey Andrew,

Ah, I see, yes that make a lot more sense.

It's an interesting analogy to turn over in your mind, especially since the historical approach to Wing Chun training seems to have been much more focused on drilling rather than today’s modern approach of suiting up in armour and going all out.

Yes, those last 2 questions you asked are very good. Can you improve quicker under a sparring type of training regime – I’d say yes you would. You’d get fitter, tougher, hone your aggressive intention faster and learn to adapt very quickly. This approach will probably turn you into a “fighter” faster but not necessarily a martial artist.

Can a dry land teacher make you a fighter at all? Well, I’m not sure what your definition of fighter ended up being but IMO a fighter is someone who is willing to fight when they need to. A dry land teacher can teach you the art but you have to be willing to apply it. Application is the key, train with intensity and realism and you become a good fighter. Don’t and at best you’ll be a bad fighter and worst you’ll be a dead fighter.

Thanks
Block

[YongChun]

I think it's a nice easy way to teach by just having people go all out at each other. A lot of students I encounter are not rough and tough types where that works. I have taught one lady who came from a molestation situation and it took a lot of psychology and step by step work for her to even get to a drilling stage level. Violence just freaked her out. I have another student with a mild schizophrenic condition and violence really freaked him out for a few years. Now slowly he is getting better.

Not everyone has the fighting mentality that Terence or Ernie have when they come in to learn. Most of those types wouldn't even bother to learn some silly martial art. So I still don't think just having people go all out is a good way to teach. It is a good way to teach brawling and crash fighting courses.

There are a lot of those course where someone puts on the gear and you go in beserk mode and go to town on them. It's a good way to develop some natural fighting aggression for some kinds of people.

It's no way to teach proper body mechanics, relaxation and a variety of techniques or to build up their body condition first.

Taekwondo has many kinds of kicks. You just can't become a powerful and fast kicker by just going in from day one trying to kick each other to death. I don't see the need to hurry the process to try to cram this all into one month. I think there is a difference between a brawler and a martial artist. If you have the body for it and the right aggressive mind then brawling is easy to learn. Just do it. But not everyone learning martial arts has that mentality. Yet some can still be turned into fighters with a slower progressive approach which consists of forms, drilling, light sparring and then slowly turn up the intensity and the variety of fighting methods.

Ray

[Ernie]

Ray
There are a lot of those course where someone puts on the gear and you go in beserk mode and go to town on them. It's a good way to develop some natural fighting aggression for some kinds of people.

It's no way to teach proper body mechanics, relaxation and a variety of techniques or to build up their body condition first.


this is the extremist attitude i was talking about
strecthing a realit way out to make something sound better

the exact oppisite the correct body mechanic will only be correct under extreme pressure period

don't belive take that anyone who you 'think has good mechanics and has never been under heavy pressure put them in it and watche them fold like a piece of paper

just reality man

skill is progressive and that progression has to go all the way

i'm not built for the level anymore tasted it
felt it's ''power '' for lack of a better word . but it messes with your mind

i know people on that level they scare me

almost all traditional martial artist in i have ever met don't scare me at all

i'm sure some can put me down easy

but if i compare that ratio to the boxers

boxers will far out number the TMA

and i have no problem with that

just real life

ray--I think it's a nice easy way to teach by just having people go all out at each other. A lot of students I encounter are not rough and tough types where that works. I have taught one lady who came from a molestation situation and it took a lot of psychology and step by step work for her to even get to a drilling stage level. Violence just freaked her out. I have another student with a mild schizophrenic condition and violence really freaked him out for a few years. Now slowly he is getting better.

reality is they probably never will be able to really defened themsleves against a real animal

not that your not a good teacher but your dealing with damaged goods from jumpstreet

just real life man

why gas them up ?

i had a 90 pound girl tht got raped and came to train at gary's school she was a mess an wanted to be able to protect herself

told her the truth buy a gun or some mace

you will never be able to shut down a 250 pound man

real life

ray-Taekwondo has many kinds of kicks

Taekwondo is a joke so is wushu , tap dancing and ballet when it comes to combat

man i think your a great person

but reality is reality


now time for to sleep off the wine and stop being so honest

peace


ray --
Not everyone has the fighting mentality that Terence or Ernie

i think T trains like i used to , i'm not on that level these days

trying to get my body back up to 100% that is more important to me

[YongChun]

Ray
There are a lot of those course where someone puts on the gear and you go in beserk mode and go to town on them. It's a good way to develop some natural fighting aggression for some kinds of people. It's no way to teach proper body mechanics, relaxation and a variety of techniques or to build up their body condition first.

Ernie:
this is the extremist attitude i was talking about
strecthing a realit way out to make something sound better

Ray:
Well from what I have seen in various martial arts schools, good form and position comes first and also fitness. That's not extremist in the slightest but just common sense.

Ernie:
the exact oppisite the correct body mechanic will only be correct under extreme pressure period

Ray:
Maybe for your students who are already fighters and in good condition. There is no way an average non fighter type person can get good mechanics by exposing him to extreme pressure before he can even walk, kick or punch. I have never seen that.

Ernie:
don't belive take that anyone who you 'think has good mechanics and has never been under heavy pressure put them in it and watche them fold like a piece of paper

Ray:
Yes that's the first step after they have developed some mechanics. You expose them to pressure which doesn't even have to be extreme to see them unable to function. Sometimes it takes 6 months before they can function because it is a new environment.

Ernie:
almost all traditional martial artist in i have ever met don't scare me at all

Ray:
Well that's impressive. I suppose. You are a master's master indeed.

Ernie:
i'm sure some can put me down easy but if i compare that ratio to the boxer will far out number the TMA and i have no problem with that just real life.

Ray:
I have no problem with that either. The people in jail who can fight , the people in gangs and the bad guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who can fight probably outnumber the boxers too.

Ernie:
reality is they probably never will be able to really defened themsleves against a real animal not that your not a good teacher but your dealing with damaged goods from jumpstreet

Ray:
When you decide to teach then you usually accept all kinds of students not just the rough and tough types who hardly need any training. I don't view my job as training fighters who can handle 250 pound Thai boxers or 300 pound ex-cons or a pack of Hell's angels. That's not going to happen. If I can't handle those things then I can't teach someone else to either. My job is to improve on what the student can already do. My job is to make him or her better in whatever timeframe it takes. Also we are in a peacful city up here, no 1,000 murders like Detroit, Los Angeles and Washington. So people have a different mindset here. When Emin Boztepe was here he beat the hell out of one of his students to impress us and tried to impress us about the reality of fighting but he read the people up here all wrong. No one was impressed. But he was smart and changed tactics totally the third day and then everyone liked him. We weren't aggressive like people in Germany or the USA. Different crowd, different tastes. If I was in jail or in a gang or in a war then I would have a different training attitude for sure.

Ernie:
i had a 90 pound girl tht got raped at gary's school she was a mess an wanted to be able to protect herself told her the truth buy a gun or some mace you will never be able to shut down a 250 pound man real life

Ray:
I make no pretences and also tell them like it is. But if they still want to learn something anyway, then I oblige and teach them.

Ernie:
Taekwondo is a joke so is wushu , tap dancing and ballet when it comes to combat

Ray:
Depends on what Taekwondo guy you meet I guess. To most martial artists Wing Chun is also a joke but it depends on who they meet. It hasn't produced the goods real fighters expect even with more than one million Wing Chun practitioners. Maybe it's record is worse than that of Tai Chi. Maybe You and Terences movement will change all that?

[Ernie]

Ray:
Well from what I have seen in various martial arts schools, good form and position comes first and also fitness. That's not extremist in the slightest but just common sense.

Ernie:
every thing has a natural progression the difference is the honesty of the goal , the sooner you get in front of a person the sooner you face things like distance and timing and adapting to different people , now this can be done early on and during the basic mechanic development stage just can’t put pressure on the yet there not ready keep things light and relaxed , but keep the ‘’goal’’ obvious from the beginning . as there mechanic tighten up the will be developing first hand experience with the tools learning why, when and how . and after all one experience is worth 1000 patternized dead techniques ,
There is a right and a wrong way to train people in a live environment .

Ray:
Maybe for your students who are already fighters and in good condition. There is no way an average non fighter type person can get good mechanics by exposing him to extreme pressure before he can even walk, kick or punch. I have never seen that.

Ernie:
you create experiences that ingrain the worth of the mechanic , they learn to trust in what they do and relate it right away , then when they are doing there solo work there is a immediate purpose not just empty words and theories [ again notice I have not said anything about heavy pressure yet it is developed with time and with safety but the goal is always there to take this person out not to accumulate techniques and become a master of empty non relating motions ]
Only some of the guys I work with are in very good condition the rest need to work on it and yes your right most have fighting experience either wing chun or military or just street , I have the luxury at this time to pick and chose and I wouldn’t even train a out of shape person they would have to get in shape first to prove they were serious and respected themselves , I’m a hard ass that way

Ray:
Yes that's the first step after they have developed some mechanics. You expose them to pressure which doesn't even have to be extreme to see them unable to function. Sometimes it takes 6 months before they can function because it is a new environment.

Ernie:
that’s right maybe longer if there way out of shape , but the goal can be introduced and reinforced very early on , relating and adapting and finding there individual expression , dealing with emotion and learning to relax in front of some one can be introduced early , people spend along time on dead mechanical training then they get to fixed and robotic when they get in front of some one they freeze trying to recreate a drill instead of just flowing and being comfortable

Ray:
Well that's impressive. I suppose. You are a master's master indeed.

Ernie:
now come on Ray you know I don’t believe in masters , there people like anyone else 2 arms and 2 legs , most of the traditional masters can’t even deal with a well set up jab , sure if you fight them in there patarnized way or sit there like a corpse they can pull there game of and stomp you but most traditional systems don’t have simple jab defense or low line kick defense or shoot defense [ I don’t consider Thai or BJJ in that group the can actually fight and there training methods prove that ]
Most masters are pot bellied blowhards living off someone else’s accomplishments , sure there are skilled fighters in all walks of life but the main training methods are not producing that , but there sure can sell and talk it all day

Ray:
I have no problem with that either. The people in jail who can fight , the people in gangs and the bad guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who can fight probably outnumber the boxers too.

Ernie:
most probably box in one way or another =) just gives more natural and faster results again this is life

Ray:
When you decide to teach then you usually accept all kinds of students not just the rough and tough types who hardly need any training. I don't view my job as training fighters who can handle 250 pound Thai boxers or 300 pound ex-cons or a pack of Hell's angels. That's not going to happen. If I can't handle those things then I can't teach someone else to either. My job is to improve on what the student can already do. My job is to make him or her better in whatever timeframe it takes. Also we are in a peaceful city up here, no 1,000 murders like Detroit, Los Angeles and Washington. So people have a different mindset here. When Emin Boztepe was here he beat the hell out of one of his students to impress us and tried to impress us about the reality of fighting but he read the people up here all wrong. No one was impressed. But he was smart and changed tactics totally the third day and then everyone liked him. We weren't aggressive like people in Germany or the USA. Different crowd, different tastes. If I was in jail or in a gang or in a war then I would have a different training attitude for sure.

Ernie:
well live in different worlds sir , here the 250 pound street dude is the guy that will come up and mess with you in the street at the bar anywhere , you just have to be honest with your situation , if this is not happening in your neck of the woods then I am truly happy for you , you are blessed , but I have seen it here all my life so my filter is biased , and when people come to train that is the mental image they are prepping for so conditioning and impact training are a must , just to have some hope of survival or at least be able to run away .
I’m moving to Canada then I can relax =)

Ray:
I make no pretences and also tell them like it is. But if they still want to learn something anyway, then I oblige and teach them.

Ernie: As you should very few people really want to fight even the so called tough guys only want to hit people but don’t like to get hit back ,I know I don’t like to fight or get hit , just happens sometimes

Ray:
Depends on what guy you meet I guess. To most martial artists Wing Chun is also a joke but it depends on who they meet. It hasn't produced the goods real fighters expect even with more than one million Wing Chun practitioners. Maybe its record is worse than that of Tai Chi. Maybe You and Terence’s movement will change all that?
Ernie:
It’s all in the training methods man if there not training on that level it won’t magically appear and that’s my point very few of us are , myself included these days
But traditional systems lack the training methods Taekwondo and mechanical non adaptive arts really lack it , there might be individuals that are talented but the over training system does not produce universal results

Yet people will still talk and theorize and compare fighting that have never fought and probably never will , this is life
If people were honest and spoke with in there personal experience and limitations , or dare I say it , instead of spending so much brain power theorizing about this or that , just went out got in front of the problem and found the answer out for themselves things would be a lot clearer , but as my good friend says that would be to much like right

Ps I have no movement just researching trying to keep my mind on the goal and not get caught up in the fluff

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Ernie,

I’m moving to Canada then I can relax =)
I'm reviewing your application and will get back to you in approx. 4 - 6 weeks
:D

J

[t_niehoff]

The dry-land swimming analogy is based on the principle that if we want to increase our performance level in some activity then we actually need to do the activity itself (regularly). So, folks that never get in the pool and try to swim (the activity itself) will never significantly increase their ability to swim even if they do all kinds of exercises on the side of the pool (not the activity). The analogy is appropriate for many in WCK since they do all kinds of nonfighting activity (forms, drills, etc.) but without the activity itself (fighting) they will never porgress.


Btw, I thought that Bruce had come up with the analogy but found (via Duncan Leung) that Bruce was merely borrowing from Yip Man.

Ray, look at how all fighters train -- they don't learn their "whole system" or even a significant part of their "whole system" before fighting. They take small bits, drill them, and then put them into fighting right away. I don't share your "experience" training folks -- in fact, just the opposite: I see very fast increases in performance training as I advocate. Moreover, if someone needs to fight tomorrow for whatever reason, they have a better chance as they are a better fighter than they were yesterday; they don't need to wait years to have increased performance.

Regards,

Terence

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff

Ray, look at how all fighters train -- they don't learn their "whole system" or even a significant part of their "whole system" before fighting. They take small bits, drill them, and then put them into fighting right away. I don't share your "experience" training folks -- in fact, just the opposite: I see very fast increases in performance training as I advocate. Moreover, if someone needs to fight tomorrow for whatever reason, they have a better chance as they are a better fighter than they were yesterday; they don't need to wait years to have increased performance.

Regards,

Terence

Terence, as I mentioned before we learned the whole system in six months and then did all the sparring. Is that too long to wait? Even the first month we started sparring. Again not all students can learn like that. I already had 15 years of martial arts at that time so it was easy for me.

How long did you study Wing Chun before you went all out 100% as you suggest? How many people have you taught? I think you haven't taught that many yet. Your model is good for some but not for all.

You know Terence, why don't you hang out in Thai boxing gyms instead of wasting your time with whatever Wing Chun activity (that you have never specified) do? Wing Chun provides you with a set of tools. Once you have those tools you go and use them. A carpenter doesn't go back and relearn how to use a hammer each time. When I first learned Wing Chun we were told after two years we can throw away the dummy, throw away the punching bags and just go out and apply our art. So what do you do? Sounds like you are like the carpenter that constantly goes back to relearn how to use that hammer but you never work on a real construction project. You don't seem to be fighting any Thais either nor do you accept the challenges from some other lineage that I read about to test your theories.

The proof is indeed in the pudding. So one video of you going 100% against your students and another showing the result of this against real fighters would be enlightening for us all. At least Ernie and other have dared to show what they do. They have exposed themselves, left themselves open to criticism. That's better than hot air don't you think?



Ray

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ernie
while you’re at it there is no easter bunny or Santa clause


What?????...............my whole world is in shambles.


Originally posted by Block
I've been off the forum for some time so I'm not really up to date with all the discussions. Forgive me if this has been covered before but it seems to me that the swimming analogy has one fundamental flaw.

That is, if you throw a person into water and they have never swum before (excluding the water babies phenomenon which you could read something else into I guess) then that person WILL drown.

I doubt that every person who doesn't know how to swim, if thrown in the water, would drown. I'll wager that some would learn to tread water.

I don't find that as a flaw in the analogy, but there is one. In swimming we are referring to 'man vs. element' and in fighting we are referring to 'man vs. man'. In swimming the water isn't really trying to drown us, it happens as a lack of being able to swim. In fighting, we have a deliberate antagonist.

But, as in all analogies, if you look long and hard enough you will find fault in it.

[YongChun]

Actually Terence I was from a Karate background. We sparred right away. In six months I went through 4 belt rankings and entered a few tournaments already. After two years I joined a Hung style Kung Fu club and found what was very successful in Karate tournaments and Karate sparring was garbage in that club. Furthermore it took several years to unlearn all my bad habits. The teachers I had and the students were fighters but fighters with good form, technique, speed and power. None had sloppy techniques. So I saw some value in learning a thing properly.

If you listen to the TV ads you can learn to play the piano in a week. Is that the quality of your Wing Chun too? Do you have evidence your stuff works against the MMA crowd, BJJ of the Thais. Do you contribute anything on those boards or were you laughed off of those? Can you show any of them that Wing Chun is worth anyone's time of day? If not, then why are you doing it?

Ray

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YongChun
Is that the quality of your Wing Chun too? Do you have evidence your stuff works against the MMA crowd, BJJ of the Thais. Do you contribute anything on those boards or were you laughed off of those? Can you show any of them that Wing Chun is worth anyone's time of day? If not, then why are you doing it? If you want quality Wing Chun, then your approach is better. If you want to be the best, most effective fighter you can be, then Terence's model is better.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YongChun
Actually Terence I was from a Karate background. We sparred right away. In six months I went through 4 belt rankings and entered a few tournaments already. After two years I joined a Hung style Kung Fu club and found what was very successful in Karate tournaments and Karate sparring was garbage in that club. Did you spar full-contact with the Hung students who had the same amount of time that you had in Karate and find that they easily beat you?

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Did you spar full-contact with the Hung students who had the same amount of time that you had in Karate and find that they easily beat you?

I did the regular kind of Karate sparring. In the 60's we didn't go full contact for knockout. I just found their basics were way better in the same amount of time. I'm not saying all Hung style is equal or good. I just felt that what I learned in Karate was a subset of what they learned in Hung style. It's difficult to make real comparison's though as some things depend on the individuals talent too. The Hung style club was more into forms and drilling but they worked like hell and were very fast on their feet. The instructor felt that almost the same could be achieved from his kinds of drills as from freestyle sparring where he said a lot of EGO problems occur and the Hung style quality didn't come out. He said with not enough Hung style training then the results were not Hung style fighting. I have noticed this a lot over the years too. Hung style is known for strong stances and hard punches, good fast entry techniques and non stop motion. I always liked the look of that stuff, like Jet Li's movements. Because the style had a larger repertoire than Karate and many kinds of weapons to learn, the time taken before you really were a Hung style fighter versed in everything was a lot longer. But to reach a level that Karate reached in two years wasn't any longer.

Ray

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
If you want quality Wing Chun, then your approach is better. If you want to be the best, most effective fighter you can be, then Terence's model is better.

Terence would argue his is better on all counts. But I don't mind his opinion. He has a different kind of mix of people to work with and has different experiences from my own. The training in classical arts like Hung style, Tai Chi, Aikido, Preying Mantis, Ba Gua, Hsing I etc. is not something he has gone through so it's hard to relate to. So then one just uses the logic like no Ba Gua guy has beat a good MMA fighter so thefore the Ba Gua training model is deficient. Nothing wrong with these debates but it would be nice to have real evidence against skilled people. In China they used to set up a stage in the middle of town and all issues would be resolved in that way. Those who lost went back to the drawing boards to try again if they were not killed off in the first place.

Some relatives of mine in Holland said that every Friday night they would go down to the canals and have some major battles with other like minded people. That was their entertainment. Both men and women fought. The police would tend to avoid the area or else they would have gotten a beating too. That's another training model.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YongChun
After two years I joined a Hung style Kung Fu club and found what was very successful in Karate tournaments and Karate sparring was garbage in that club. So, you are talking about in terms of looks rather than fighting ability?

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
So, you are talking about in terms of looks rather than fighting ability?

No fighting ability. They could punch me before I could punch them. They had more variety of technique. By looks I mean they had better stances, more solid, more mobile, more flexible. In hitting they had a larger variety of techniques. As far as weapons go, the Karate stuff I learned was very limited.

Ray

[Ultimatewingchun]

Swimming vs. Piano playing?
Drilling vs. Hard contact sparring/fighting?

I don't get the point of these debates anymore.

The real questions to answer, it seems to me, is not whether to do one or the other; but rather, HOW MUCH of each to do...because both are important.

Without time spent on forms, chi sao, wooden dummy, drilling, etc...how can one learn the basic principles, strategies, and techniques of Wing Chun?

And without frequent hard sparring/fighting...how can all of the above be truly measured - in terms of one's actual fighting ability?

Debating exactly how much of each to do...or how to stagger each set of activities...when to stop drilling, chi sao, etc. and start sparring....when to spar with heavy contact...when to go back for a bit and drill - before resuming hard competitive sparring...when to go out and test it against other systems...

These questions are the key questions.

[YongChun]

I agree with that Victor.

In my Hung style club the generation before me trained 7 days a week. They were all Chinese and it was a way for the students to keep out of trouble and to avoid the gambling halls in Chinatown. Classes were from about 5:30 or 6 until midnight. At midnight someone would prepare a soup or congee and everyone would eat that. My generation came just three days a week and we of course were never as good as any of the first generation students.

In one of my Wing Chun training models we covered everything in 6 months because the teacher had to go back to Hollland to return several years later. He wanted to establish a club that would keep going until he returned. Classes were about 4 or 5 hours in length to cover all that stuff. Later when he got back, he switched to the three year model to cover all the material.

In his approach Wing Chun was looked at as consisting of two pieces. One piece was the close range piece. The other part was the distance piece. For the close range part an enormous amount of time was spent on the sticking hands skills in order to build in contact reflexes that would enable you to do the right thing at the right time without thinking. At the same time of course distance stuff was trained but not as intensively. Then in part two the student no longer had to worry about what to do when contact was made and all the effort could be put on training the skills to close of get in. So intensive effort was put into that part. This involved regular sparring and sparring with boxing kind of headgear and fingerless leather gloves. A few people tried tournaments but most didn't have the interest.

Chi sau was very much related to every aspect of the SLT. The CK, BJ, Dummy, pole and Knife training all were related to free style sparring. The Holland Wang Kiu clubs did less Chi sau and more tournament combat then the Vancouver club, Maybe our mix was 80/20 close range/far range and their mix was 20/80 close range/far range. So in theory after the close range was comfortable all the time should be spent on trying to get in. One of our students said it took him 6 months before he could close with the top TaekwonDo guys at the University. He said they could kick very fast and even while backing up. But after six months he was able to use leg vs leg, get in and then they couldn't handle his Wing Chun hands. So he recommended to all of us in the 1980's to do this as well.


Ray

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YongChun
No fighting ability. They could punch me before I could punch them. They had more variety of technique. By looks I mean they had better stances, more solid, more mobile, more flexible. In hitting they had a larger variety of techniques. As far as weapons go, the Karate stuff I learned was very limited. So, you are saying you sparred or fought them and they easily beat you?

[KingMonkey]

We need less analogies.

[old jong]

we need to practice.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by old jong
we need to practice.

You know I'm going to try that sometime.

Ray

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
So, you are saying you sparred or fought them and they easily beat you?

Well I felt their stuff was better than my stuff and that's why I stopped to learn that stuff on my martial arts path. But I didn't complete the training. A classmate of mine went through it and then sparred against the other kinds of arts on a regular basis. So he was really able to use his Hung style whereas I couldn't. My Hung style would be Karate style Hung style. When he sparred it looked like Hung style as opposed to Karate or Tai Chi or Wing Chun. That means he was able to use a large variety of Hung style techniques when he fought. He found the timing and distancing and had the judgement to make that stuff work against people who put in a similar amount of time. He is not a professional he wouldn't be able to beat up a professional fighter in my opinion. I think a good Wing Chun fighter should also be able to use all the stuff in the forms otherwise why have the forms?

Ray

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YongChun
Well I felt their stuff was better than my stuff and that's why I stopped to learn that stuff on my martial arts path. forms? That's not what I was asking. I was asking if you knew their stuff was better than your karate because you actually sparred or fought them or whether you were just assuming they could fight better becasue they looked better and had more tools. So, I'll ask again, did you actually spar or fight them full contact using your karate skills?

[Block]

Hi Justin

I doubt that every person who doesn't know how to swim, if thrown in the water, would drown. I'll wager that some would learn to tread water.
Well as Andrew said I don't think that it's ever been tested. However, water is the most foreign type of environment you can find and our natural instincts are to grab hold of something or to try and stand. I guess it's possible for someone who has never been in water before to work out how to tread water but they won't have very long to figure it out!

HERE's another analogy - I don't know if it's been used before though. How about that of a pilot.

A pilot has to learn a lot of technical information and theory before they get into a plane. They have to know what all the different controls do, what to do with those controls to achieve the outcomes they want and what different environmental conditions will have on the plane and how to then handle them.

They are then put into a flight simulator to test their ability and knowledge. I guess you could say it's a bit like our sparring environment - a simulation of reality.

Then after all that they get into a plane and have to do it all for real, with their lives actually on the line. Much like a real street confrontation.

Come to think of it I'm sure you've used this analogy before???

Cheers
Block

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Block
A pilot has to learn a lot of technical information and theory before they get into a plane. They have to know what all the different controls do, what to do with those controls to achieve the outcomes they want and what different environmental conditions will have on the plane and how to then handle them.

They are then put into a flight simulator to test their ability and knowledge. I guess you could say it's a bit like our sparring environment - a simulation of reality.

Then after all that they get into a plane and have to do it all for real, with their lives actually on the line. Much like a real street confrontation.
I believe the majority of pilot training involves a lot of actual flying time under the guidance of an instructor. Lots of actual flying while learning to be a pilot.

[anerlich]

Reminds me of "Aliens" when Ripley and the marines are about to drop onto the alien-infested planet, and one of the grunts asks the ****y Lieutenant something like

"How many drops have YOU taken, lieutenant?"

To which his reply was:

"Thirty-seven ... simulated."

To the general disgust of the other marines.

[Block]

I believe the majority of pilot training involves a lot of actual flying time under the guidance of an instructor. Lots of actual flying while learning to be a pilot.
Yes, of course you are right. Does that type of training equate to our sparring practice or our competitive fighting? In my mind the equivalent to a trainee pilot with an instructor would be going to the nearest ghetto with a large escort, picking a fight with a street gang and hoping your escort breaks things up before you get killed or seriously hurt.

I think our training probably lies somewhere in between the simulator and the real life flight. Hence as realistic as you can get – safely.

Reminds me of "Aliens" when Ripley and the marines are about to drop onto the alien-infested planet
Oh, how I love that movie! :D

I guess that example would be the same as turning down an alley, 2 guys step out in front of you and another two cut off your escape route from behind and your mate turns to you and asks "how many times have you done this" and you reply "hundreds of times ... all simulated"

Of course sparring is not 'real' fighting, but it is the closest we have to work with while staying within certain safety parameters

Cheers
Block

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
That's not what I was asking. I was asking if you knew their stuff was better than your karate because you actually sparred or fought them or whether you were just assuming they could fight better becasue they looked better and had more tools. So, I'll ask again, did you actually spar or fight them full contact using your karate skills?

So I can't get off so easily? I sparred with them regular Karate style. In those days we didn't do full contact. It was just a friendly match. I saw the same happen in a 1982 tournament in Vancouver. At that tournament the Seattle Hung style club cleaned up against the other styles. What I saw was that they had very fast closing footwork. I don't know exactly what kind of attacks they were doing but must have been recognizable to the judges.

But my experience against Hung style doesn't count for much because I wasn't the best representative for our Karate club. I do know the best Hung style guy from the club competed in one Karate tournament in Toronto and did well. He also spent a lot of time, years actually, just working on getting in quickly against fast kicks. The rest of the experiences from the club members were street fights because the white guys didn't like the Chinese much in Toronto. I wasn't involved in street fights.

Ray

[Miles Teg]

I have a similar experience as Yong Chun. I did Karate for 10 years and there was a lot of sparring involved. I didn’t find it particularly valuable, except to make me appreciate W.C more. Now I don’t do any sparring although I’m looking to do some physical art like kick boxing or BJJ while I’m stuck in Japan with no W.C.

Anyway I don’t know what the thing is with sparring. Everyone seems to be defining it as swimming in water. The swimming in water is real fighting. Sparring is dry water training – just on a more intense level than chisao (although that depends on how you do Chi sao). So you’ve got Ernie and Neitof (spelling?) saying that you’ve got to condition yourself to intense environments with sparring to various degrees, where I imagine they refer to something that comes extremely close to a real fight. That’s fine and that will probably make you more conditioned to the real thing more than anything else. But it is still dry water training albeit quite possibly the best dry water training you can do. When I sparred in my Karate days it didn’t come close to the experiences I had in real fights. I don’t know about anyone else but in my experience my adrenaline goes through the roof, I freeze up and get tense. This is not something I ever experienced in sparring. Its not the same. Even when it was my turn to go up against (in sparring) someone good who I was afraid of, I still didn’t have adrenaline problems etc.

That’s what I mean by dry water swimming and swimming. Varying degrees of dry water training can get you close but it will never be swimming (real fighting).
That’s why I said we can only do dry water training in preparation of when we may need it for the real thing. If you want better chances for the real thing, then you probably want to increase the intensity and break comfort zones like Ernie suggests.
Of course intense training on its own is not as effective without quality technical instruction. You need a coach who picks up on little errors and corrects them, if you want to be a competitive swimmer – the same as in high level fighting. But I imagine a combination of both quality training and intense sparring is ideal.

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
i had a 90 pound girl tht got raped at gary's school

I hope you don't mean this like it reads.


she was a mess an wanted to be able to protect herself

Quite reasonable.


b]told her the truth buy a gun or some mace [/b]

Fair enough. As I've said many times - if my only purpose in training was for fighting or self defense, I'd spend a lot more time at the shooting range and on other defenses instead.


you will never be able to shut down a 250 pound man

real life

Ernie, I do understand where you are coming from with the reality check, and I can agree with that. I also understand your curt style of communication and that your meaning is often deeper than your words. So I'll ante up as the devil's advocate on this one ...

Ergo, you implied to her that she should just give up???

I wouldn't even imagine such a thing in the presence of a rape victim, let alone imply or suggest it to her.

Like you, I do not believe in living in a world of illusion. If she was under the illusion that martial arts was going to be a panacea, then you did her a service in helping her to avoid such a hazardous fallacy.

At the same time, it is also critically important in this life to work toward and maintain some semblance of hope. God forbid, no less for a rape victim.

It may be that you offered her more than mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if you offered her some very good tips or sound guidance that may or may not have anything to do with martial arts or Wing Chun. Or perhaps you referred her to a source of help more knowledgeable and skilled in counseling or coaching someone who's been through that type of experience. If so, good going.

Nonetheless, if she happened to enjoy the practice and pursuit of martial arts even for their own sake, and came by some benefit as a result, I would encourage her in eeking out every ounce of utility from those skills should she need to do so (in addition to every other life experience and skill she can muster to the task). To me, that's essentially what this is all about.

For me, it's not about NHB's or fight clubs. It's not about "proving" things or guarantees. It is about personal growth, having some fun, and acquiring some things that can reasonably help to increase our odds should we become targets of violence despite our best efforts in minimizing exposure to it. To me, this is very reasonable, and sufficient justification for martial arts training.

However, since we have proven through prior forum discussions that folks like me are stupid on the one hand, and have no right to comment on martial arts or fighting on other, I'll offer an appeal to authority in that Sanford Strong agrees with me on this.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Vajramusti]

"How many drops have YOU taken, lieutenant?"

To which his reply was:

"Thirty-seven ... simulated."
-------------------------------------------------------
Reminds me of an oft repeated WW2 story- when "dropping" behind enemy lines was in its early stages.
A new Brit officer asked a group of Gurkhas to volunteer behind German lines. Few did. The Brit was surprised because of the reputation of the Gurkhas for bravery.
Later- the Brit asked a Gurkha who spoke better English - why the Gurkhas turned down being parachuted behind German lines. The Gurkha was somewhat surprised (broken telephone lines even then)--- you said drop ..you said nothing about providing parachutes:-

Some broken telephone lines on the disjunction between dry land and wet swimming. You can begin with shallow water--- go deeper and deeper--- before trying shark infested or crocodile infested waters. The dry versus wet disjunction is overdone
and overdrawn. Wrong premises and wrong analogy.
gotta run- to bring home the bacon.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dry water swimming?!

Dry water?! No such thing. The analogies are getting prepostorous.

Light contact sparring will not pump the adrenaline as much as heavy contact...and heavy contact sparring is still not actual fighting...but it comes much closer to reality fighting - and can therefore serve as a means of working on the adrenaline rush not resulting in tensing up, loss of focus, etc.

Just one of the many benefits of heavy (full) contact sparring.

[Ernie]

Kathy
The girl in question would get very emotional while training and really try to hurt the guys going from chi sau to clawing and kicking out of nowhere
She got a few good scratches in on my face and was shaking , you could feel the anger coming off her , so I pulled her a side and asked her what was going on , then she told me what had happened to her and this is why she was taking martial arts , to regain some form of control in her mind I guess ,
I was very honest with her and told that even with all my training and the fact I’m in shape dealing with a much larger violent assailant would be very difficult [ not like the movies ]
And I told her to hit the gym gain control of your life by doing something as controlling you physical appearance and conditioning , I have seen so many people change and gain confidence from seeing the change they can make ,
Told her about Kathy Long a pro kick boxer I have trained with and how amazing she was , referred her to they gym she coaches at , told here she was spending to much time dwelling in the actions that remind her of her pain and she needs to pull away and work on her spirit and come back after she gets some balance , she was on a path of getting hurt or hurting some one .

Miles

I came up in HWA RAN DO pretty much a fancy Karate . I have been to many karate schools and a few tournaments and trust me what karate people do is not spar
At least not in the skill development sense , to dudes crashing on the line and forcing their way is not sparring at all ,

Distance, timing, footwork , reading a person , setting them up learning to catch and create a clear opening , finesse , sensitivity , balance , recovery initiation speed , combination speed , recognition speed , slurring timing , breaking rhythm , being relaxed , soft , and going slow clear and calm in the face of speed and rage .

These are a few elements that constitute what sparring should focus on and develop , there is isolated sparring picking one element or a combination of these elements and allowing your body to take the time it needs to absorb and understand the information it is receiving .

[ sounds a lot like chi sau huh ?]

this is how I was taught to spar , the balls out sloppy car crash style was always looked down upon

notice I didn’t bring up types of techniques , it’s about the attributes and the skill development

perhaps this is chi sau for some perhaps an extension for others , this type of training will allow you to work off any one , style discipline .
I really don’t see what the big deal is

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Block
I think our training probably lies somewhere in between the simulator and the real life flight. Hence as realistic as you can get – safely.

If you are referring to you training, whether it is light or heavy sparring, 'realistic as you can get - safely', you are still in the simulator 100%.

If you are in between the simulator and real life, that would mean a portion of your training involves going out and getting into real fights.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
i had a 90 pound girl tht got raped at gary's school
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kathy-Jo:
I hope you don't mean this like it reads.

That's what I was thinking. It sounds like one of Gary Lam students raped that lady.

Ray

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YongChun
Originally posted by Ernie
i had a 90 pound girl tht got raped at gary's school
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kathy-Jo:
I hope you don't mean this like it reads.

That's what I was thinking. It sounds like one of Gary Lam students raped that lady.

Ray


you mean you guys don't do that as part of your body to body chi sau :p

[kj]

Way to go, Ern. Knowing you, I figured there had to be something more substantial to the story.



Originally posted by Ernie These are a few elements that constitute what sparring should focus on and develop , there is isolated sparring picking one element or a combination of these elements and allowing your body to take the time it needs to absorb and understand the information it is receiving .

[ sounds a lot like chi sau huh ?]

You say to-mae-to, I say to-mah-to.

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

Originally posted by kj
Way to go, Ern. Knowing you, I figured there had to be something more substantial to the story.




You say to-mae-to, I say to-mah-to.

Regards,
- kj

People are funny the getso hung up on things it's all a process
a way to experience and grow

if you are aware of the sklls you are developing

you can walk into many different lab's or enviroments and develop those skills

it's like by putting on a pair of gloves you suddenly lose are your skill and have to change your format

that's silly

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie

Ernie:
Distance, timing, footwork , reading a person , setting them up learning to catch and create a clear opening , finesse , sensitivity , balance , recovery initiation speed , combination speed , recognition speed , slurring timing , breaking rhythm , being relaxed , soft , and going slow clear and calm in the face of speed and rage .

These are a few elements that constitute what sparring should focus on and develop , there is isolated sparring picking one element or a combination of these elements and allowing your body to take the time it needs to absorb and understand the information it is receiving .

[ sounds a lot like chi sau huh ?]

this is how I was taught to spar , the balls out sloppy car crash style was always looked down upon



Maybe you hit on the problem right there. What you said is probably one of the more constructive comments on this whole swimming analogy thread which seems to have permeated all topics on this forum.

Bruce Lee said all that stuff in his various books but it didn't change to many classical arts training methods. It only produced all kinds of variations on the Jeet Kune Do theme but perhaps started the whole MMA craze.

Terence just talks about going all out 100% to really try to take your training partner's head off. To me that's totally idiotic. It's just the same as doing my Karate sparring except to bump it up a notch such that injuries of all sorts are the norm rather than the exception.

What you describe sounds very useful. It sounds like you were TAUGHT to spar. I have seen very few teachers in the classical arts that teach one to spar. For years and years I looked for training methods, books, tapes, seminar instruction for good methods to teach this missing link. The pickings were slim. The Karate world had a few things like Dan Anderson's guide to sparring. Chung Kwok Chow produced a tape on how to spar. I didn't think Chunk Kwok Chow's tape was good enough but it was a start for those who have never sparred before.

I was very happy with the Wing Chun chi sau approach in that it was a very step by step method that could lead smoothly and continuously all the way up to intense close fighting. However the distance instruction by anyone was severely lacking.

I don't agree with the trial and error approach of just going to fight Thai boxers, getting your legs splintered up, your nose broken or whatever else happens. That's what I didn't like about Karate training, nice forms and drills but they had no relationship to what was used in a fight. I tried that, I done that. Everyone can spar but spar intelligently?

If you teach chi sau the same way as just starting from contact and going all out then I doubt any kind of skills will be developed. Yes you will be a rough and tough close range fighter but what kind of art and skill will you really have?

So perhaps the answer is to just borrow the training technology from the boxers and the Thai boxers. One Wing Chun teacher in England who produced seems to have done that, although he was criticized by a lot of people for not doing pure Wing Chun. The tape was "Inspired by Wing Chun - by Wai-Po Tang." The tittle suggests he is not doing Wing Chun but is just inspired by Wing Chun. In the tape it seems he does some Wing Chun and then breaks off and does kickboxing or Thai boxing so sort of a Dr. Jekyll mr. Hyde approach.

The last time I discussed this I was told that the best way is just to jump in and do it because there are no step by step ways that lead to full contact sparring. This time there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

I am hoping for the sake of lots of future Wing Chun practitioners that people like Gary Lam, who has real experience against the Thais, and whoever else has produced good fighters, does produce some tapes to fill the gap in sparring instruction. So far what Gary Lam has produced is good but it is just the regular classical stuff. However I still admire his contributions to the art. He is a doer and not just a talker.

Lot's of classical schools spar and spar with intensity and protection yet that sparring does not bring them up to the level of a real fighter nor does it seem to give these students the ability to use their art in a way that's any different from a Karate student.

But to borrow all the training methods from boxers and from Thais might just turn you into a boxer or Thai fighter instead.

[old jong]

This is taken from Ho Kam Ming's website ,who is not a stupid idiot when it comes to talking about Wing Chun:
.................................................. .................................................

Q: Is Ving Tsun more like a fighting skill, or is it an exercise for a healthier body?

Ving Tsun has the best of both worlds. It is a very powerful combat /self-defense system, at the same time an excellent exercise for your body. For instances, our first hand form “Siu Lim Tau” already contains Chinese "Chi Kung" exercise. It certainly makes your body healthier.



Q: Does Ving Tsun require intensive physical exercises?

Ving Tsun emphasize more on skills, namely balance, position, timing, and control of other’s energy. Appropriate physical exercises such as jumping and running can help to build up your stamina, which in turn supports your skills. Basically, a set of relatively mild physical exercises is enough to support your Ving Tsun skills. However, if you would like to be a professional fighter, you will need to go through a set of intensive physical training.



Q: What body type is Ving Tsun traning most suitable for ?

Ving Tsun is a sophisticated self-defense system suitable for all.As we mentioned above, Ving Tsun focus more on skills rather than muscle strengths.
.................................................. .................................................. .....

BTW, Ho Kam Ming trained full contact fighters in his Macao times.
If we read carefully: "if you would like to be a professional fighter, you will need to go through a set of intensive physical training." Does that mean "Train like a MT guy" or..."Add intensive physical conditioning to your Wing Chun training"?...There is a nuance there (IMO)

[Ernie]

Maybe you hit on the problem right there. What you said is probably one of the more constructive comments on this whole swimming analogy thread which seems to have permeated all topics on this forum.

Bruce Lee said all that stuff in his various books but it didn't change to many classical arts training methods. It only produced all kinds of variations on the Jeet Kune Do theme but perhaps started the whole MMA craze.

Terence just talks about going all out 100% to really try to take your training partner's head off. To me that's totally idiotic. It's just the same as doing my Karate sparring except to bump it up a notch such that injuries of all sorts are the norm rather than the exception.

What you describe sounds very useful. It sounds like you were TAUGHT to spar. I have seen very few teachers in the classical arts that teach one to spar. For years and years I looked for training methods, books, tapes, seminar instruction for good methods to teach this missing link

----- Ray that is exactly how it’s supposed to be done , you build up slowly , by isolated sparring , and then putting it together but skill refinement and getting it clean and clear it the goal , it is not skill if it’s just go in crash and may the tougher lucky guy win

I’m a wimp and non competitive I have no desire to prove I have the biggest balls , I would rather kick the guy in the balls , if you are being serious about really wanting to develop this step by step process , man talk to me offline this is what my attribute stuff Is all about , I have no problem sharing my Information and training methods with you , well there not mine I can’t take credit I just have a wing chun skill based over lay , but on the real tip man all I got is yours if you want it . no promisis it’s a work in progress =)


I was very happy with the Wing Chun chi sau approach in that it was a very step by step method that could lead smoothly and continuously all the way up to intense close fighting. However the distance instruction by anyone was severely lacking.

----- yep every one I meet that tells me they got it down from just chi sau as soon as I move around with them and give them a non traditional read it shows , there is something missing


I don't agree with the trial and error approach of just going to fight Thai boxers, getting your legs splintered up, your nose broken or whatever else happens. That's what I didn't like about Karate training, nice forms and drills but they had no relationship to what was used in a fight. I tried that, I done that. Everyone can spar but spar intelligently?

---- you don’t need to get hurt , sure you might run into something in a controlled environment , but that’s an accident , but getting messed up all the time is not productive for anyone


If you teach chi sau the same way as just starting from contact and going all out then I doubt any kind of skills will be developed. Yes you will be a rough and tough close range fighter but what kind of art and skill will you really have?


--- how much wing chun has become just what you describe , all the talk of skill but when things get hot hell Mary chain punches and bumper car structure not much skill in that


So perhaps the answer is to just borrow the training technology from the boxers and the Thai boxers.

----- not so much borrow but convert it to your skill development needs , some people have better ways of developing certain isolated skills , no need to re invent the wheel others are not conducive to wing chun skill but the method might work , won’t know until you try .



The last time I discussed this I was told that the best way is just to jump in and do it because there are no step by step ways that lead to full contact sparring. This time there is a light at the end of the tunnel.


----- the right approach the right group of training partners and leave ego at the door good things will come

I am hoping for the sake of lots of future Wing Chun practitioners that people like Gary Lam, who has real experience against the Thais, and whoever else has produced good fighters, does produce some tapes to fill the gap in sparring instruction. So far what Gary Lam has produced is good but it is just the regular classical stuff. However I still admire his contributions to the art. He is a doer and not just a talker.


---- not sure if Gary will ever do a free fight tape , he is old school get in and fight style figure it out , he does share his experiences with us , but he even admits much of his experience is dated fighters have evolved so we are encouraged to get out and research for ourselves , all he ask id to try and find a wing chun answer for the problem this way we can give back to the training system , he invites fighters [ like my friend Robert and others ] to come and do seminars at his school so his students have exposure to what is out there , he is very confident in his wing chun so he doesn’t mind others coming in and showing there skills , most traditional types would not be able to let some one else shine , for fear of losing students or money , but that is not the case with Gary he is more interested in the research and growth , one of the reasons I still stick around



Lot's of classical schools spar and spar with intensity and protection yet that sparring does not bring them up to the level of a real fighter nor does it seem to give these students the ability to use their art in a way that's any different from a Karate student.

---- they spar thinking technique trying to prove there ‘’way’’ instead of thinking individual attribute development this lets you use what ever tool you prefer , when you are forced to make your static technique work you have just trapped yourself and mad the system more important then the individual and this is a recipe for disaster

But to borrow all the training methods from boxers and from Thais might just turn you into a boxer or Thai fighter instead.

---- not if you know what skill you are seeking only if you follow blindly

my 2cents

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I was very happy with the Wing Chun chi sau approach in that it was a very step by step method that could lead smoothly and continuously all the way up to intense close fighting. However the distance instruction by anyone was severely lacking." (Ray)

The distance instruction was indeed lacking....

"But to borrow all the training methods from boxers and from Thai's might just turn you into a boxer or Thai fighter instead." (Ray)

Not necessarily...

"Bruce Lee said all that stuff in his various books but it didn't change too many classical arts training methods. It only produced all kinds of variations on the Jeet Kune Do theme but perhaps started the whole MMA craze."

And with this, Ray, I believe you may have answered your own question. Why not take Bruce's training methods into the Wing Chun class? There can be a bridge between chi sao and sparring that runs similar to some of Bruce's original ideas.

One such bridge is to take some isolated techniques out of chi sao and train them from a distance...and then start to string a number of them together to form a bigger (but still a somewhat limited) drill...and then a more spontaneous drill with many techniques...and then eventually glove up and start sparring free style. And of course at this point other strategies and techniques not found in close-contact range chi sao will have to come into play as well.

So experimenting in order to find a more efficient/comfortable/up-to-date delivery system (ie. - longer range footwork and some longer range striking and kicking strategies) is part of the equation...and this is part of what can be gleaned from boxing or Thai boxing...from TWC footwork...JKD footwork...Gary Lam (WSL's lineage) footwork and entering techniques, etc.

Hence my remark earlier about the distance instruction being lacking (in "classical" wing chun training).

Now what do I mean by taking isolated techniques out of chi sao and train them from a distance? Here's one very basic example that is known to everyone here, I'm sure - dan chi sao. The palm strike comes and the other person does jut from his fuk sao to deflect the strike downward.

Well...What about someone coming in from a distance from his...say...left front stance and trying to put a stiff low left lead straight punch underneath your lead arm and into the side of your ribs or gut? (You're in a right front stance with a right hand lead)...So here's an opportunity to train the jut sao from a whole different place...and with a whole different footwork response - because of the distance.

The possibilites are endless...but the door leading away from chi sao and into sparring is now open...Or maybe he trys a rear front kick to your gut or groin (from the longer range distance)...and you respond with...whatever (ie.- you raise your leg and kick/deflect his kick - or perhaps you sidestep out of the way, etc.)...and then he throws either the punch I alluded to or the rear front kick...and you have to differentiate between the two and respond appropriately...and maybe your response to either of his moves has taken you to the inside close contact range - and more of your chi sao moves may now come into play (lop, pak, bong, etc.)....and maybe he backs out and contact is lost - and you're learning how to respond to that...with whatever? move...

And the game is afoot. Step by step...bridging your chi sao skills into and out of various ranges...and eventually padding up and sparring spontaneously and with more and more intensity and contact.

Which is not to say that you stop doing chi sao as a separate drill...you have to...otherwise the whole contact "flow" aspect of chi sao will either be lost (through lack of frequent training) or won't be developed adequately in the first place. And the flow aspect of chi sao contact reflex sensitivity is essential (as a Wing Chun fighter) once the inside contact position has been gained during hard sparring/fighting, etc.

[YongChun]

Now we are getting constructive and that's very good.

Ray

[R Clausnitzer]

Bravo, Victor......at last someone who has managed to breach the impasse and allow common sense and reason to start shining through, instead of coming from ego :)

As Ray suggests, this could be the start of some fresh, "new" thinking, where people are prepared to drop their conditioned thoughts.

The detail is not that important, it's more about reflecting on, expressing, and testing the concept, to see what works for you. Whereas you, Victor, might use a jut sao in dahn chi, I might prefer to use a forward moving jum sao, but from that point one starts to test it, gradually, from static to mobile, from rehearsed to free style, from low intensity to increasing intensity, against a variety of attacks......and if one finds oneself in a position where a backfist is the quickest amd most direct way to score, then that should be utilised, because that is an expression of a Wing Chun concept.

Despite the romantic view (and I used to subscribe to it), Wing Chun does not even have to look like WC. In other words, if you were a boxer and able to understand the value of and rationale behind WC concepts, you could enhance your boxing skills considerably. I am pleased to say this is already happening. Thanks to the vision and confidence of a good friend and colleague, Mannie de Matos, who is an outstanding and innovative western boxing coach as well as martial artist, one of my lifelong dreams is coming true, ie the enhancement of boxing via an infusion of WC concepts and limited techniques/energies.
Mannie has explored a number of CMA, and decided that WC made more sense. He has a lot of respect for WC, but has criticised the general lack of testing it against "uncooperative" opponents. At this point, only two WC guys have taken the bold step of cross training with Mannie's boxers, but it's paying off after just 3 months. When the guys regularly visit and spar with boxers from regular boxing clubs, they do very well, unsettling their opponents with their aggression, wider repertoire, changing stances and footwork, etc

A former student, who has now become an outstanding teacher in his own right, has in the last three or four years, taken his WC to a new level and trained students who have held their own, in friendly sparring as well as serious challenges, against western boxers, bjj grapplers, and judo exponents, amongst others.

What has so far stopped me from introducing heavy contact sparring is the unavailability of head gear that prevents concussion (even the Fist/RedMan products are designed for moderate contact only).

There is so much I'd like to contribute to this discussion, but unfortunately I am too busy in my semi-retirement with other matters.

So, good luck, and perhaps some new knowledge and understanding may emerge.

Rolf Clausnitzer




Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"I was very happy with the Wing Chun chi sau approach in that it was a very step by step method that could lead smoothly and continuously all the way up to intense close fighting. However the distance instruction by anyone was severely lacking." (Ray)

The distance instruction was indeed lacking....

"But to borrow all the training methods from boxers and from Thai's might just turn you into a boxer or Thai fighter instead." (Ray)

Not necessarily...

"Bruce Lee said all that stuff in his various books but it didn't change too many classical arts training methods. It only produced all kinds of variations on the Jeet Kune Do theme but perhaps started the whole MMA craze."

And with this, Ray, I believe you may have answered your own question. Why not take Bruce's training methods into the Wing Chun class? There can be a bridge between chi sao and sparring that runs similar to some of Bruce's original ideas.

One such bridge is to take some isolated techniques out of chi sao and train them from a distance...and then start to string a number of them together to form a bigger (but still a somewhat limited) drill...and then a more spontaneous drill with many techniques...and then eventually glove up and start sparring free style. And of course at this point other strategies and techniques not found in close-contact range chi sao will have to come into play as well.

So experimenting in order to find a more efficient/comfortable/up-to-date delivery system (ie. - longer range footwork and some longer range striking and kicking strategies) is part of the equation...and this is part of what can be gleaned from boxing or Thai boxing...from TWC footwork...JKD footwork...Gary Lam (WSL's lineage) footwork and entering techniques, etc.

Hence my remark earlier about the distance instruction being lacking (in "classical" wing chun training).

Now what do I mean by taking isolated techniques out of chi sao and train them from a distance? Here's one very basic example that is known to everyone here, I'm sure - dan chi sao. The palm strike comes and the other person does jut from his fuk sao to deflect the strike downward.

Well...What about someone coming in from a distance from his...say...left front stance and trying to put a stiff low left lead straight punch underneath your lead arm and into the side of your ribs or gut? (You're in a right front stance with a right hand lead)...So here's an opportunity to train the jut sao from a whole different place...and with a whole different footwork response - because of the distance.

The possibilites are endless...but the door leading away from chi sao and into sparring is now open...Or maybe he trys a rear front kick to your gut or groin (from the longer range distance)...and you respond with...whatever (ie.- you raise your leg and kick/deflect his kick - or perhaps you sidestep out of the way, etc.)...and then he throws either the punch I alluded to or the rear front kick...and you have to differentiate between the two and respond appropriately...and maybe your response to either of his moves has taken you to the inside close contact range - and more of your chi sao moves may now come into play (lop, pak, bong, etc.)....and maybe he backs out and contact is lost - and you're learning how to respond to that...with whatever? move...

And the game is afoot. Step by step...bridging your chi sao skills into and out of various ranges...and eventually padding up and sparring spontaneously and with more and more intensity and contact.

Which is not to say that you stop doing chi sao as a separate drill...you have to...otherwise the the whole contact "flow" aspect of chi sao will either be lost (through lack of frequent training) or won't be developed adequately in the first place. And the flow aspect of chi sao contact reflex sensitivity is essential (as a Wing Chun fighter) once the inside contact position has been gained during hard sparring/fighting, etc.

[captain]

when i first saw wing chun [not that long ago],i thought it was the most weird and strange looking style i had ever seen.some of it work instantly for me and other bits ive had no chance to use in anything other than slt.
wing chun is a nasty,weird and puzzling ma.and forever,it will leave people questioning it's pros/cons.perhaps it really is a gift from the chinese,and their success with it is due to the pragmatic lifestyle many are forced to live [endure] with.perhaps we could all post pics or mini films on here to highlight and further proper discussions.

Russ

[R Clausnitzer]

Originally posted by captain
when i first saw wing chun [not that long ago],i thought it was the most weird and strange looking style i had ever seen.some of it work instantly for me and other bits ive had no chance to use in anything other than slt.
wing chun is a nasty,weird and puzzling ma.and forever,it will leave people questioning it's pros/cons.perhaps it really is a gift from the chinese,and their success with it is due to the pragmatic lifestyle many are forced to live [endure] with.perhaps we could all post pics or mini films on here to highlight and further proper discussions.

Russ

Hi, Russ

Another posting that strikes a chord, particularly the bit about its being a gift from the Chinese......I've been saying that for some years now and perhaps one day it will be recognised as such.....it's interesting that martial arts tend to be overlooked, for whatever reasons, when it comes to evaluating cultural, scientific, and other contributions to mankind......"everlasting springtime" and "in praise of springtime" make perfect sense, as WC will never grow old and is in a constant process of renewal and development.......in my opinion, the widespread attempts to link it to some historical beginnings and to claim that it is really not that different from numerous other CMA and their concepts and techniques is somewhat misguided and inaccurate. True, it has been influenced by them, but more as a reaction to them and as a response to seeing combat afresh......a simple analogy might be the way aspects of Japanese culture, whilst clearly having had their roots in Chinese culture, have developed and evolved into something so different that today they display greater differences from Chinese culture than either may have with aspectc of, say, European culture.

Regards.

Rolf

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Bravo, Victor......at last someone who has managed to breach the impasse and allow common sense and reason to start shining through, instead of coming from ego...

As Ray suggests, this could be the start of some fresh, "new" thinking, where people are prepared to drop their conditioned thoughts...

Despite the romantic view (and I used to subscribe to it), Wing Chun does not even have to look like WC. In other words, if you were a boxer and able to understand the value of and rationale behind WC concepts, you could enhance your boxing skills considerably. I am pleased to say this is already happening....

At this point, only two WC guys have taken the bold step of cross training with Mannie's boxers, but it's paying off after just 3 months. When the guys regularly visit and spar with boxers from regular boxing clubs, they do very well, unsettling their opponents with their aggression, wider repertoire, changing stances and footwork, etc

A former student, who has now become an outstanding teacher in his own right, has in the last three or four years, taken his WC to a new level and trained students who have held their own, in friendly sparring as well as serious challenges, against western boxers, bjj grapplers, and judo exponents, amongst others.

What has so far stopped me from introducing heavy contact sparring is the unavailability of head gear that prevents concussion (even the Fist/RedMan products are designed for moderate contact only)."
(Rolf Clausnitzer)



Thanks for the kind words, Rolf...and your account of the WC people working with boxers and other stylists with success doesn't surprise me. I've been using the training scenario I described in my earlier post for years now - and it works well. Always adding, subtracting, and experimenting with it - it's still a work-in-progress. Come to think of it...it will probably always be like that...As for mixing some boxing with wing chun - I'm all for it - and have incorporated some boxing concepts (ie. - using a jab as an attack strategy to work off as a means of gaining the inside position...some footwork and longer range kicking techniques for the same purpose) - for some time now. Been inspired to do that not just from watching great boxers through the years - or Bruce Lee - but have also seen William Cheung do some similar things witht the jab and some kicks upon occasion as well. But mostly - I came to this conclusion simply by sparring through the years with some folks with good boxing and kickboxing skills. The outside game is critical to gaining the inside "wing chun" position.

As for headgear - I have a suggestion for you. I've taken the facemask off some standard martial arts headgear and replaced it with the hockey face mask that some sporting good stores here in New York sell separately. This particular facecage is made up of a number of very thin horizontal and vertical metal bars that completely protect the face - but are thin enough not to impede vision.

Good luck.
Victor