Wai Po Tang.. look at this, what do u think of it?

[Kristoffer]

http://www.martial-art.com/
Wai Po Tang?? He mixed his traditional WC with Muay Thai. sorta. his teacher never wants to speak to him again, his name is Simon Lau.

Have anyone heard of these gentlemen and their schools of Wing Chun?

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Kristoffer]

http://www.martial-art.com/videos/inspbywc.ram

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Sihing73]

Hello Kristoffer,

Do you have direct knowledge of the claims you make or are you simply parrotting the words of others? I ask because you mention Simon Lau and make reference to his desire to speak to Wai Po Tang. How do you know this, did one of them tell you?

Wai Po Tang, unless I am mistaken, did the video "Inspired by Wing Chun". Although I have not seen the video myself I have heard several good reviews of it from others, whom I respect.

May I ask what the purpose of your post is? If you want to find out information about either of these gentlmen I am sure there is a more polite way of inquiring. Look over your post again and see if you can see where it may be taken in the wrong context.

Peace,

Dave

[oldwolf]

I bought the video 'Inspired by Wing Chun' several years ago when it was first released, and quite enjoyed it, in my limited opinion it is a blend of Muay Thais and WC, although I would have hated to have trained in the barn with all that dust. Didn't know he was of a similar lineage to Simon Lau and don't know of any dispute between them.

"And the crowd called out for more"

[wingchun.com]

I didn't see anything bad in what they were doing. A mix of Wing Chun and Muay Thai training. And training for real contact with the pads. Not bad all things considered.

If he has indeed crosstrained with a good MT teacher then he has a great way of knowing how to deal with MT techniques!

Gary Lam in LA (www.garylamwingchun.com) a Wong Shun Leung line teacher has background in both WSL WC and Muay Thai. If you are going to worry about kicks, it is MT kicks to worry about.

Add in dealing with wrestling takedowns, (single/double leg/etc.) and he is a well rounded guy.

[northstar]

Wai-po Tang has trained and competed in Thailand with MT boxers and his curriculum includes low Thai style kicks and a flexible approach to learning fighting through sparring, and also some grappling basics. Tang, along with many other students, left Lau's organization in the 80's due to some dissatisfaction, and Tang was accepted as successor to Yui Kei, the son of Yui Choi (Daai Lik Choi/Big Strength Choi), a student of Chan Wa Shun.

[chi-kwai]

...does not lend itself to round kicks. to round kick, we must unsettle our foundation, shifting our weight around, changing our footing. i don't know everything about MT, but i do touch hands with an MT guy every so often and the kicks most used are round kicks and knees to the body. I have a lot of respect for muay thai, but its not WC, nor is wing chun MT.

am i mistaken in thinking this defeats much of what we do in wing chun?

--
chi kwai

[northstar]

No, it doesn't defeat the WC, it compliments it. WC doesn't have to rely only on the center line punch, which is an impression you sometimes get reading on this board. In addition to the punch, there's already the body turning punch, the kicks including the waang geuk with hip twist, elbows, saat sau chops etc. The centerline punch will always be the most important, but in a real fight or even in a sparring setting, the continously changing angles and distances give ample opportunity to attack with an MT style round house. It's simply a good kick to have, plus it's good to practice blocking and countering it.

[Kristoffer]

Sihing73, Dave,
I cant see the reson for you or anybody to get offended by my post. This was never my intention, all i wanted to know is, IF they are "good", reputated or bogus or whatever.

No, neither one of them told me this smart ass :p
But Simon Lau has mentioned this in intervies with a swedish MA magazine.

What is your oppinion? Do you think WaiPo Tang is good? Do u think he ruins the art of WC? I myself really dont care, im just interested in looking in to his school someday just for fun.

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Sihing73]

Hello Kristoffer,

In reply to your post I would like to revisit your original posting:
You posted the following;
***Wai Po Tang?? He mixed his traditional WC with Muay Thai. sorta. his teacher never wants to speak to him again, his name is Simon Lau****

In looking at the above I see several potential problems. First you state that he mixed his WC with Muay Thai, sorta. This would be fine if you KNEW that for a fact. Also what do you mean by "sorta". I mean either he mixed it or he did not. However the biggest problem is stating that "his teacher never wants to speak to him again, his name is Simon Lau". Again, how do you know this to be true? Are you even sure that Simon Lau trained Wai Po Tang? If so, for what length of time? Statements can always be taken out of context and what may have been said with good intentions can be twisted into something else.

When I went to the website I did not see any reference to Simon Lau nor to Muay Thai. What I did see is a version or branch of Wing Chun which claims to trace its lineage back to Ng Chung Sow trhough Yul Kil to Wai Po Tang. So I guess my question would be where you are getting your information regarding Simon Lau and any feelings he has regarding this person as well as what information supports your statement of the mixing of Mauy Thai and Wing Chun.

It would seem that Northstar has some more detailed information regarding Wai Po Tang and he could probably better respond to these inquiries.

As to the remainder of your question I would refer you back to my original post. Having neither met the man nor viewed his video I can not really give an opinion on his ability. Other than the fact that others have given me good reports after seeing his video I can offer nothing more.

My purpose in posting was to simply point out that the way it was worderd could have some negative effect. If I wanted to find out the same information I would have worded things a little differently. But hey, that's just me :p

Example:
**Has anyone heard of Wai Po Tang? I have heard that he does a blend of Wing Chun and of Muay Thai and also that he trained under Simon Lau but broke with him. I would appreciate any information anyone could provide as well as any opinions as to his level of skill.********

Just a thought
:D

I am not trying to be condensending I just want to avoid any unneccessary conflicts.

Peace,

Dave

[chi-kwai]

Then you bring up another point alltogether. When you mix muay thai with wing chun, it is no longer wing chun, nor is it kung fu at that point. WC is a complete system. If you don't know how to respond to certain events, then perhaps you should ask your sifu.

--
chi kwai

[wingchun.com]

I think in the modern world the arts people need to worry about are people with background in the following areas:

Boxing,
Muay Thai and Submission Grappling/Wrestling

These days these three are combined and practiced as MMA. Wing Chun has had an abysmal record against Muay Thai and in competition in NHB events. So far, asking one's WC Sifu doesn't seem to work that well. :confused:

Crosstraining in those styles to REALLY understand their strenghts and weaknesses is a good thing in my opinion. If you don't know how to properly do the Muay Thai kicks how will you know how to deal with them? Same thing goes for grappling in terms of takedowns.

It would therefore seem that Tang's students could very rightfully ask THEIR sifu how to deal with a Muay Thai kick and they would get a pretty good answer from that perspective.

It isn't clear from his website that he has "mixed" or "fused" Wing Chun and Muay Thai.

[northstar]

I agree with Planet WC on this. Many WC people think they're sitting on a "scientific" way to win, just as long as you stick the holy principles. Principles and "science" are excellent, but they are never more than tools.

[chi-kwai]

you speak as though everyone on the street is a muay thai boxer, or that everyone should be concerned with going against one in a ring. it may be that i am a purist, but i feel very strongly against mixing styles, especially non kung fu with kung fu. It simply doesn't make sense diluting one art with another, when you can spend all your time devoted to one art and get that much better and know that much more about it. One might say: "Super Dojitsu Chun Fu just can't work against Muay Kwan Jutsuoeira." I say learn how to make it work. Wing chun is a complete art, there is a response to everything. Because you don't know it, doesn't mean you should fill in the gaps with something else.

I strongly believe that the level of the practitioners involved are what cause "abysmal" outcomes in MT v. WC matches. I said it before, I spar with a Muay Thai boxer on occasion, and while I did poorly at first, but I adapted as well as learned new techniques over time. I can't tell you how effective bok jarn was once I learned its application, when before I had simply tried to step out of the way.

--
chi kwai

[chisauking]

Ah, I’m glad that you can see light at the end of the tunnel, Chi Kwai.

One good punch is better than 100 lousy ones. The same applies to the skill of wing chun. Many, many poor wing chun students, that has only skimmed the surface of wing chun, incorporate bits and pieces from other styles to try to fill-in the gaps in their weak wing chun. They claim that wing chun isn’t complete, when in reality it’s only their skills and knowledge that is so.

The trouble is, they haven’t train long and hard enough for the style to work, so instead of being more diligent in their training, they take the lazy approach.

It’ s what I call chop-suey gungfu -- a bit of this, a bit of that. Jack-ass of all trades, master of none.

[chi-kwai]

But isn't that the mentality of everyone now days?
I know that here in the states, 99 percent of the people want to get their 35th degree black belt in Super Jujustu Chun Fu Keunpo in a year of training, and are willing to pay for it, as if having that title will make them more of a fighter.

Wing chun has a basic concept of a straight line is shorter than an arc, therefor allowing it to reach the target first. It doesn't mean that learning WC will be the same way. Sure, learning is linear, but its not a broken line or necessarily straight. To get from point A to point Z you have to traverse points B through Y...

I have been studying wing chun for about three years. I think I have reached letter G. :)

--
chi kwai

[This message was edited by chi kwai on 08-25-01 at 06:44 AM.]

[Kristoffer]

*YAAAWN* :p
Would you mind giving me your thoughts regarding a blend of Muay Thai and WC? or are u to 'offended' right now?

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[whippinghand]

Our stance does lend itself to roundhouses. Our stance lends itself to a myriad of kicks.

[whippinghand]

Michael Yan Choi, I don't think I could have worded it better, myself. (Well, actually, I probably would have used fewer words.) Very good points.

However, between "complete martial arts", or "high-level martial arts", how to counter this against that, would not even be a question, because the principles incorporated are the same, but the approaches vary slightly.

The problem lies in exactly what Michael Yan Choi & Chi Kwai wrote.

[This message was edited by Whipping Hand on 08-26-01 at 10:36 AM.]

[whippinghand]

Don't you need to add a bit more soya sauce to your wasabi?

[wingchun.com]

What about 2-255?

:eek:

Aside from which wasn't this thread about Wai Po Tang and his "mixing" in Muay Thai? In looking at his website I don't see ANYWHERE where he mentions that.

He may simply crosstrain in it, just as other Wing Chun instructors do.

Like say Hawkins Cheung with Karate and Taiji.

Gary Lam (a Wong Shun Leung instructor) and Muay Thai.

Steve Cottrel who studies other Kung Fu systems.

So getting back to the subject at hand, where does W.P.T. say he "mixed" Wing Chun and Muay Thai? Where is anyone in this thread advocating "mixing"?

Crosstraining is simply pursuing training in a different subject. If you study French and English it doesn't mean you "mix" them.

[Losttrak]

The day a style's effectiveness is measured in fight records is the day the martial arts die.

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

[chi-kwai]

WH: Our kicks, tai gurk, jit gurk, dim gurk and fung gurk, in addition to bong gurk and tan gurk, as well as any other WC kick, punch, or whatever are straight line. This is not a quantitative statement, because there are a few exceptions; pai jarn, pao chun, and a handfull of other techniques. While its possible to do a roundhouse kick or punch from a wing chun stance, why would you? With a rhkick, you have to unsettle your WC stance to get the proper energy. with a roundhouse punch, we all know how easy they are to defeat.

------

PWC: if muay thai is so much greater, then perhaps you should give up wing chun. you quote stats and scores without citing a source.

--
chi kwai

[vertical fist]

"Many, many poor wing chun students, that have only skimmed the surface of wing chun, incorporate bits and pieces from other styles to try to fill-in the gaps in their weak wing chun. They claim that wing chun isn’t complete, when in reality it’s only their skills and knowledge that is so. The trouble is, they haven’t train long and hard enough for the style to work, so instead of being more diligent in their training, they take the lazy approach.

It’ s what I call chop-suey gungfu -- a bit of this, a bit of that. Jack-ass of all trades, master of none." -michael yan choi

I just thought that deserved repeating. :)

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[whippinghand]

The roundhouse kick is not as round as it seems(performed correctly).

[hunt1]

I will do something i see rarely done here.Reply to the actual topic.
Simon Lau was a student of Lee Shing in london in the early 70s.I know because one of my Sifus,Sam kwok was his neighbor and also a student of Lee Shings at that time.
Simon had at one time claimed to be a student of Yip man butage place of birth etc speeak to the acuracy of that statement.Wai-po was one of Simons better students.he was a class mate of Steve Swift under Simon.
For what ever reasons($) many of Simons top students left him and went their own way in the mid 80s.Wai-Po has a reputaion for being a top notch fighter in his younger days.I have never meet him so can not speak to his actual skills.Besides opinions often very on subjective subjects.Perhaps he uses MT in his Wc perhaps not.some say Wc does not have a round kick I can show you where is exists in a WC form.(perhaps not really round but everyone describes things in their own way)

[Kristoffer]

THANK YOU hunt1

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[wingchun.com]

Gee lets see, I only run www.wingchun.com (http://www.wingchun.com) one of the oldest, largest and most visited sites on our art in existence. I've been studying Wing Chun since 1992. My teachers lineage is as a direct student of Leung Sheung, Yip Man's first student in Hong Kong.

1. I am a student of Wing Chun.
2. I don't see any problem with cross training in other arts.

Tell you what if crosstraining is so bad, my question still stands about why you don't ask guys like:

Hawkins Cheung, direct student of Yip Man
(http://www.hawkinscheung.com/gallery06.htm)

Gary Lam, a senior student of Wong Shun Leung(http://www.garylamwingchun.com/photos_hk.html)

Hmm, they don't seem to be "giving up" Wing Chun.
Nor do they claim to be "mixing" their Wing Chun.
Perhaps you should educate them as well.

As to Muay Thai's record vs Chinese Martial arts in general:

http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6d.htm
http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/muay.html
http://www.runet.edu/~jepps/Page10.htm

None of that means one needs to stop training in their mother art.

[Sihing73]

Yes, I am terribly offended right now, LOL I hardly consider this anything worth getting upset over. I would have replied sooner but I have been busy with life, I can't give the internet 100% of my time :( As a matter of fact I was in NYC this weekend training with my Sifu. I was also learning just how little I truly know. I had hoped to be somewhat proficient by the time I was forty now I am shooting for 50 LOL!

As to your question:
I do not know anything about Muay Thai other than what I have seen on video, tv or read. However, from what I have seen/read the style seems to be very power oriented and would lend one to over-committment. As an example of what I mean by this look at the round kick. This kick will, if it misses its target often result in the spinning of the kicker in a half or a complete circle. Now all of this power is great if it lands but I can see several problems if it does not :p

I think that the problem with competing against this style is not so much the styles but more on the level of conditioning different people do. A Muay Thai fighter does a great deal of conditioning and is trained to give and take blows. Much like a western boxer or wrestler they will be a tough opponent simply because of the level of conditioning. However, most Muay Thai fighter have to retire before they are 30 or at least mid thirties. Often, the training has left them with injuries as well. Now, if you really want to make a comparison of the two arts of Wing Chun and Muay Thai I would like to see to older, mid forties to fities compete and then make a comparison.

As to the idea of mixing or blending the two arts together; I don't feel that it would be productive, for me at least. I don't see anything that I would feel beneficial to take from Muay Thai. My biggest problem would be on the emphasis on power and force versus force techniques. But, if I were to learn more about the art of Muay Thai I could change my mind ;)

Peace,

Dave

[chi-kwai]

wh: and still not part of wing chun.

---

pwc: i figured my statement would have been construed as a match for a flame. simply stated, i don't like cross training. do it if you like.

[mun hung]

knee comes up first facing the opponent like a front kick, and then hip turns as the kick is delivered.

[chi-kwai]

sounds to me like we have differences in lineage and teaching styles here. we learn four major kicks in our school. Tai gurk, which is a forward rising kick which makes contact with the top of the foot, jit gurk, which makes contact with the bottom of the foot, toes pointed inwards, foot parallel to the ground, dim gurk, forward flat kick contacting with the bottom of the foot, and fung gurk, a downward moving kick typically issued from the rear leg towards the opponent's knee.

there are others, tan and bong gurk, dok lap ma... but they don't fit entirely into the kick category.

--
chi kwai

[whippinghand]

Not in WC? according to whom?

[jameswebsteruk]

On the thai boxer age thing, have to mention a quote from Wong Shun Lueng, who, let us remember, sucessfully fought thai boxers in the 50s, during his beimo.

When asked how to fight a thai-boxer, he replied:

"Wait till he's 30, or f**k him!"

He later explained that the second option referred to the importance of going straight in with a strong stance, leading with the hips.

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running
around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." ;)

[chi-kwai]

Come off it, man. Perhaps I was wrong in quantitatively saying "Roundhouse kicks are not in Wing Chun" and should have said "In my school, we are not taught roundhouse as part of the curriculum."

Regardless, all I see is you trying to inflame a discussion. For all I know, your lineage teaches tornado kicks, flying uppercuts and spinning back hands. But until you speak up and specifically say this, all you are doing is making waves.

--
chi kwai

[Kristoffer]

thx Dave.

"Wait till he's 30, or f**k him!"
LOL :D

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[whippinghand]

Yes, perhaps.

[Kristoffer]

ttt

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[reneritchie]

I've seen Tang sifu's tape (well produced but I found the more cutting edge, MTV style of camera work distracting when trying to see what he was doing). Looked like they trained hard and it did seem some other stuff was interspersed with the WCK.

I personally don't cross train (can hardly do one thing, let alone two) but as David Williams and others pointed out, its hardly uncommon. The history of Chinese martial evolution is one of cross-training to large extent. If our Red Junk ancestors had stuck with Opera martial arts or Fujian Weng Chun, Wing Chun as we know it today might not have developed. Likewise, many early WCK people in the surrounding villages had prior experiences in White Crane, Hung Fist, Choy Lai Fut, etc. as did many of the modern students of Yip Man, Sum Nung, etc. Some continued training and even teaching other systems as well (Taijiquan especially, but others as well). IMHO, it depends on what the individual enjoys, can digest, and feels gives them the best results. Time, in the end, will prove them better/worse for it.

As for the roundhouse, its my understanding this kick is not an historical part of WCK (or Southern Fist in general) which had relatively simple, short movements whose effectiveness came through their ability to be combined with horse and hand work into an incredibly flexible system. Basically, the common kicks were piercing (front), nailing (side), and in some cases tiger tail (back/side), alongside the horses (which included things like pressing, 7-star, side, etc.)

Being a fairly point-based system, however, like many other elements, if someone knew of a roundhouse kick, they could likely "see/extract" it in/from their WCK and incorporate it that way.

I see two sides to the coin, the preservation of what was and the development of what needs to be. If you forget about the former, you lose the ability to learn from it and compare back to it. If you forget about the latter, you lose the ability to adapt to the sometimes fast-changing realities.

Just some thoughts,

rgds,

Rene Ritchie

[Kristoffer]

Who here thinks muay thai is BETTER than Wing Chun? :eek:

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[chi-kwai]

lets not start this.

--
chi kwai

[chisauking]

I think you are confusing the issue here, Rene. I’m talking about mixing or supplementing your wing chun with other techniques, not cross training.

Wing Chun, as all higher graded wing chun practitioners should know, is a conceptual system, based on certain principles, or idioms. Adhering to those principles, it isn’t always a good idea to mix wing chun with other styles, say, Muay Thai, because it contravenes wing chun’s fundamental principles. However, this isn’t to say that a wing chun practitioner shouldn’t practice other styles, but only after they have completed the whole system and fully understood its principles. Mixing and supplementing your wing chun techniques with other techniques from other styles would only render both style ineffective. It’s like some people that start one project, or style, than go to the next before completing the first project --both projects are incomplete, and therefore useless.

One of the reasons why wing chun is so effective on the streets is because it is a very simple style. There are no flowery and fancy moves that aren’t useable in a fight to the death situation. But once you start adding bits and pieces to it, this is no longer the case. Not only will you make the system more complex and diluted, you will hinder your thoughts process and ultimately slow your reaction time in a real fight. For example, what style would you use in a fight? Wing Chun, Thai boxing, Pakistani jujitsu, Brazilian jujitsu, Dragon claws, five fingers of death, Testicle death touch, or good old boxing? Indeed, what techniques would you choose from your extensive choice of styles? While you are processing all this vast knowledge at your disposal, from years and years of cross training, it might be all too late. The street thug that only knows how to punch your nose would have hit you. After all, it has been said that martial arts only gives you the edge. A microsecond is all the edge an assailant needs to punch you in the eye.

Many, many people are making wing chun far more complex and difficult than need be.

Go back to basics.

[reneritchie]

Hi Michael,

>I think you are confusing the issue here, Rene

LOL! Usually I manage to confuse several, at least I kept it down this time! You're right, I went afield. Sorry about that. I once heard that when you study calligraphy, you must first master one or two established styles before you come up with your own.

As I said, I personally don't cross train 8)

Rene Ritchie

[Kristoffer]

michael yan choi -
good post

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[whippinghand]

"Wing Chun, as all higher graded wing chun practitioners should know, is a conceptual system, based on certain principles, or idioms."

You missed the whole point of Wing Chun.