Does opponent size matter?

[Ghostface]

Do you really think Bruce Lee could beat Bob Sapp.

[joedoe]

Size, strength, speed. They all matter. That is why people train in martial arts - to try and negate the advantages those attributes give an opponent.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Ghostface
Do you really think Bruce Lee could beat Bob Sapp.

Nope, poor Bruce is too dead to fight Bob Sapp.

[Chang Style Novice]

No. Size doesn't matter. Neither do speed, skill, power, conditioning, style, fatigue, weapons, or anything else.

I started a whole thread on this topic recently, but for some reason it was deleted.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i didn't know it got deleted.

i tried to follow it, but then people kept arguing about stuff i wasn't motivated enough to learn about.

[Chang Style Novice]

I think the "Size Doesn't Matter" thread is still out there somewhere. The one that got deleted was "Speed and Skill don't matter either."

It's about the stupidest topic I can imagine for an MA board, and I just felt like mocking it.

[MoreMisfortune]

It doesnt matter, as long as your chi is not blocked, of course.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if i come up against a larger assailant i simply squirt them with puss from my naughty places.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I think the "Size Doesn't Matter" thread is still out there somewhere. The one that got deleted was "Speed and Skill don't matter either."

It's about the stupidest topic I can imagine for an MA board, and I just felt like mocking it.

ahh i see. i think so too.

it always ends up being page after page of everyone arguing about everything they agree on if that makes any sense.

[SPJ]

Size and other physical attributes do matter.

If it is a advantage or not depends what you do.

Boxers need good muscle mass, tri and bicep to throw heavy punches.

However, most of the Kung Fu attacks are to the soft spots of the opponent. In that case, you do not need a huge muscle mass to inflict serious injuries.

You only have to do it fast and accurate.

:D

[IronFist]

Hell yes it matters. Would you rather fight someone exactly like you, or someone exactly like you except with 50 extra pounds of muscle?

[IronFist]

Here is where the misinformed comes in and says "someone exactly like you but with 50lbs more muscle would be really slow and stiff and easy to defeat."

[FuXnDajenariht]

yes.


and....


no.

[FuXnDajenariht]

so its actually

yes.


then...


no.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i just finally finished watching supersize me.

i watched the first half like 2 months ago or something, but never got around to finishing it.

im glad i dont like fast food. i dont know if my kid will ever eat mcdonalds again though.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
im glad i dont like fast food. i dont know if my kid will ever eat mcdonalds again though.
Good!

[norther practitioner]

Does opponent size matter?

If you believe Red 5s girl it does....

oh, wait you said opponent...

the answer is still yes.

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by IronFist
Hell yes it matters. Would you rather fight someone exactly like you, or someone exactly like you except with 50 extra pounds of muscle?

But with all that extra mass, they'd be quite stiff and slow. A real CMA player would easily beat them.

Of course, I'm kidding. I agree with IF here 100%. Between two opponents of equal skill, the bigger/stronger will most likely win.

[IronFist]

Hey, would a bigger person have more chi? Cuz if not, that means their chi would be distributed thinner (if a big and small person had the same amount of chi).

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Ghostface
Do you really think Bruce Lee could beat Bob Sapp.


No.

[unixfudotnet]

Originally posted by joedoe
Size, strength, speed. They all matter. That is why people train in martial arts - to try and negate the advantages those attributes give an opponent.

unless, of course, you study internal styles (or have strong focus on internal energy in your hard style), then size and strength do not matter much.

i may be mistaken, but i remember reading the Bruce Lee never got around to internal training and died before he could (which is somewhat sad).

of course, identifying weaknesses as soon as possible also helps a great deal :)

[Meat Shake]

"unless, of course, you study internal styles (or have strong focus on internal energy in your hard style), then size and strength do not matter much."

Ahh.. you just strike a fancy kung fu pose and your chi does the rest, right?

[red5angel]

that depends, do you study wingchun ;):p

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet
unless, of course, you study internal styles (or have strong focus on internal energy in your hard style), then size and strength do not matter much.




That's true, because part of that training is learning to avoid anything that might put your BS to the test.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by red5angel
that depends, do you study wingchun ;):p


Yeah, 'cause then you've got no chance no matter how small the other guy is.

[SevenStar]

Didn't we just have a thread on this exact same topic?

[Meat Shake]

"Didn't we just have a thread on this exact same topic?"

Who knows?
Do a search and there are probably 15 or so on this topic.
:o

[joedoe]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet
unless, of course, you study internal styles (or have strong focus on internal energy in your hard style), then size and strength do not matter much.

i may be mistaken, but i remember reading the Bruce Lee never got around to internal training and died before he could (which is somewhat sad).

of course, identifying weaknesses as soon as possible also helps a great deal :)

If you read what I said very carefully, you almost repeated what I said except that you added a bias in favour of internal arts. Size, speed, and strength matter. That is a given. People train in martial arts in order to overcome those advantages in their opponent. Regardless of internal or external, the idea is to develop skill, timing, and efficient use of your strength to overcome your opponent.

[ShaolinTiger00]

There is a new guy in my school who is about 6'2 and 400lbs.

let's put it this way.. There is not such thing as an closed guard with him and he's deceptively fast and Very strong..

Can I beat him? yes. I am physically and mentally more experienced and in much better condition.

Is it easy? hell no. His mass means that every successful attack has to be done with great leverage, timing, and strength.

[Waxwood rod]

I've heard girth matter's more than length. Any of you judo guys care to clear that up?

[Icewater]

I've heard girth matter's more than length.

If you ask my wife, she would say that a good combination of the two are preferable, but she doesn't practise kung-fu.

As for me, I have reasonable girth (6' @ ~245lbs.) and it usually works to my advantage. Being somewhat large, I do find that I have to relax and be patient or I get tired really fast. Perhaps I shouldn't have eaten that extra slice of pizza today... hmm....

[Apostol]

Conditioning* > Speed & Strength.

Enough said.


*Cardio, ability to take a strike, mental toughness.

[IronFist]

Clearly internal arts are a different story. That's why there's so many internal art NHB champions...

[joedoe]

OK, the best way to answer this is to put forward a scenario.

Take two men, one small and one large, both completely untrained. Put them in a fighting pit and tell them they must fight - manouvering is OK, but running away is not an option. Who would you bet on to win?

[Apostol]

Well, the smaller one could get lucky, but yeah, that's a dumb scenario, since they're both untrained.

Bruce Lee vs. Bob Sapp.

Bruce Lee's strengths: Much better fighting technique, incredible speed, fights without thinking, fast footwork, excellent conditioning.

Bruce Lee's weaknesses: Can not hit incredibly hard due to his size, and possibly may not have the ability to take a punch from someone like Sapp. Has a weak chin.

Sapps strengths: Incredibly strong and large, good conditioning (I think? he was a football player), Hits hard, and can take a punch.

Sapp's weaknesses: Slow, inexperienced, most likely thinks due to his inexperience. Bad technique.

On the street? Lee. In the ring? Sapp.

But that's just my opinion.

[Merryprankster]

I've heard girth matter's more than length. Any of you judo guys care to clear that up?

This from a guy named Waxwood rod? You've cornered the market, methinks.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
I've heard girth matter's more than length. Any of you judo guys care to clear that up?

depends on what you are trying to accomplish. sweeping, for example, cay be better accomplished by a taller guy, as well as various throws, such as harai goshi.

fireplug type guys may be better suited for more of the loading type throws.

Naturally, that's general, as everyone has their strengths and preferences. I am a fireplug type, and I love to sweep...

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by Apostol
On the street? Lee.

lolfl :D

[Mr Punch]

Yes, size matters.

If you have a longer reach you can hit from further away and if you train the right arts that's not to say you don't still have a good inside game.

If you're shorter you have a lower centre of balance so theoretically throws should be better for you, but you have less leverage to apply.

If you are heavier you'll be harder to throw, assuming you're not some unbalanced freak.

etc

etc

etc

But look at fingerprints... there are sooooo many different body types this conversation's pointless.

My karate teacher was 5'10" and really really fat (I'd guess 250 lbs)... and he could move like greased lightning and hit hard.

My jo teacher was maybe 5'7", in his late sixties, really thin, and appeared quite slow, and he could hit me every time with that stick, with adequate power to bruise in very light controlled sparring.

My side-handle baton, riot and restraint teacher was about 6', about 180 lbs and I couldn't get an arm-bar or any joint lock on him, pin him, or effect him in any way by cranking the ends of the side-handle baton into his nerve points if I did manage to pin him... he would not submit.

My MMA teacher is 5'6", 170 lbs, and can take me down and submit me at will. Though his stand up skill are very very strong, if I can keep him out at my range he has trouble... until he decides to shoot and take me down... !:D

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That's just some of the size, suppleness, speed, positioning and training issues in the martial arts. Not including things like fast, strong big people I've trained with who is inherently useless at MA and can't do any techs (like a simple punch!) or get the right positioning... etc. If you think any one of these factors does not matter, you are deluding yourself.




Now that's cleared up (again) let's get onto the meat of the thread... assuming Lee was alive he'd take it easily.

Sapp gasses easily even now, he can't take a punch (in the arm, in the head, anywhere), his footwork and kicking suck and he can't take a kick either, his ground game is to turtle leaving his head open, he has no takedowns.

Lee at least had good conditioning, practised diligently and seemed to have a natural aptitude for MA (so could probably pick up a takedown and submission or two in a week of training rather than Sapp, who doesn't seem to have managed one in three years). We don't know if he could take a punch, but Hawkins Cheung and Wong Shun Leong seemed to think he could, and we don't know if he could punch hard, but ditto, plus people like Jessie Glover can punch hard and he seemed to think Lee was good.

Assuming she got the sucker punch cos of the surprise element of being a sweet little old lady, my granny could beat Bob Sapp.

BTW, he was in the Japanese movie Devilman. As an actor he makes a world champion Pride fighter. :eek: :eek: :D What next for the monotalented Bob Sapp? (I'm assuming he was good at football...!?)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Apostol
Well, the smaller one could get lucky, but yeah, that's a dumb scenario, since they're both untrained.

Bruce Lee vs. Bob Sapp.

Bruce Lee's strengths: Much better fighting technique, incredible speed, fights without thinking, fast footwork, excellent conditioning.

Bruce Lee's weaknesses: Can not hit incredibly hard due to his size, and possibly may not have the ability to take a punch from someone like Sapp. Has a weak chin.

Sapps strengths: Incredibly strong and large, good conditioning (I think? he was a football player), Hits hard, and can take a punch.

Sapp's weaknesses: Slow, inexperienced, most likely thinks due to his inexperience. Bad technique.

On the street? Lee. In the ring? Sapp.

But that's just my opinion.

I disagree. It is not a dumb scenario, because the question is whether size matters. That scenario removes as many of the other variables as possible and addresses the question.

[IronFist]

What about Bruce Lee vs. Mirko CroCop? :D

Bruce Lee vs. Sakuraba?

[Waxwood rod]

Bruce Lee vs. Bruce Lee?

Bruce Lee vs. D1CK the Bruiser?