Real fight

[norther practitioner]

And I used kung fu..

Dude stepped
I slapped him
He left...

Good cma

[PHILBERT]

What kind of slap was it? Was there internal power to it? Was it open hand or close hand slap? Front or back hand? Was any fajing used? Was it just physical strength? What caused this?

Did the fight go to the ground?!

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by PHILBERT

Did the fight go to the ground?!

Tee-hee! If the BJJ guys are still lurking, you'll probably hear something like, "If it didn't go to the ground, it must not've been a real fight."

Of course, if a little slap stopped the whole the whole thing, then I'd tend to agree.

[norther practitioner]

A Little SLap... no such thing..


Did I mention the dude spilled my pimp juice. That made it to the ground.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Tee-hee! If the BJJ guys are still lurking, you'll probably hear something like, "If it didn't go to the ground, it must not've been a real fight."

Of course, if a little slap stopped the whole the whole thing, then I'd tend to agree.

the mis-conception that a Kung Fu artist can't handle himself on the ground ****es me off so much. I am now a student of BJJ but the hype that the Gracies put on ground fighting ****es me off. The ground is a range of combat and everyone should learn to fight there IMHO, however it is NOT the be all end all. Due to the Gracies, boasting, Kung Fu has been laughed at by the majority of MMA fighters. It has also been said by many a BJJ artist, that BJJ can always overcome Kung Fu. I was actually falling into that mindset until my Sifu patiently explained to me time and time again, it's not the art but the fighter. I understood, but it never sank in. That is until my Sifu actually overcame a BJJ fighter at his own game. The friendly match, was based on the ground with no striking and only submissions. No point system. Not only did my Sifu have the BJJ practitioner, in many a comprimising postitions but he also submitted the BJJ artist 3 times. While the BJJ artist was relatively helpless. This BJJ artist doesn't train by rank but I have gone up against him and he is a very good ground fighter. This is not to say that Kung Fu is now better than BJJ, but it is just to show that it is not the art, but the artist that makes the difference.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
Due to the Gracies, boasting, Kung Fu has been laughed at by the majority of MMA fighters.

Who cares what anyone else says. You do what you do. I absolutely love your signiture BTW, it perfectly encapsulates my entire self-defense philosophy and pretty much says it all... Get REALLY good at what you do, and use it in a fight.

My old Kungfu Sifu told me this great story about a friend of his who never trained in a fighting system at all. The guy was a cement-mixer in Canton. He would stand knee deep in cement for hours everyday using the churning of his legs to keep the cement from setting. Sifu said his thighs were about as big around as an average man's waist. One day a horse went berserk in the middle of a crowded marketplace and started charging around biting and kicking innocent bystanders. When the horse got to Sifu's cement-mixer friend, the guy kicked the horse in the throat so hard he killed it. Sifu said that later some of his Kungfu brothers got mad at him and accused him of teaching the cement-mixer in secret, but the guy had never set foot in a kungfu class in his life.

That's my favorite martial arts story of all time.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Who cares what anyone else says. You do what you do. I absolutely love your signiture BTW, it perfectly encapsulates my entire self-defense philosophy and pretty much says it all... Get REALLY good at what you do, and use it in a fight.

My old Kungfu Sifu told me this great story about a friend of his who never trained in a fighting system at all. The guy was a cement-mixer in Canton. He would stand knee deep in cement for hours everyday using the churning of his legs to keep the cement from setting. Sifu said his thighs were about as big around as an average man's waist. One day a horse went berserk in the middle of a crowded marketplace and started charging around biting and kicking innocent bystanders. When the horse got to Sifu's cement-mixer friend, the guy kicked the horse in the throat so hard he killed it. Sifu said that later some of his Kungfu brothers got mad at him and accused him of teaching the cement-mixer in secret, but the guy had never set foot in a kungfu class in his life.

That's my favorite martial arts story of all time.

very cool story dude. How did he kick the horse in the neck btw. Was it a regular "street" kick, or a "specialized" kick. He must have has some great accuracy, if it was a crazed horse. And that is some strong legs strength. But then he worked with cement, so his leg muscles would be very developed.

And I dont really care what anyone says, especially the Gracies. But when you hear it over and over it kinda gets annoying. It's like dropping water on your forehead. At first you dont mind, but after a while, each drop begins to sound like a bomb going off.

[SAAMAG]

I've never been taken to the ground in any of my "real" fights. Is that to say that it won't ever happen? No, of course not! But it sure goes against the saying that ALL fights go to the ground. Anything that is so absolute is obviously incorrect, because nothing is absolute except death.

So with that being said....I studied BJJ for a while a couple years back to see what all the hubbub was about. To be honest...it did help me in my confidence level on the ground, and only a couple guys there had the ability to "easily" take me down (granted I wasn't allowed to play my game, only theirs - so no striking or chin na or shuia jiao). I do think it's something everyone should get a taste of at the very least.

And in reference to all the internal fa jing stuff...gimme a break man, he smacked the guy and that was the end of it. All techniques should contain some form of fa jing or vibrating energy. It's what differentiates a weak hit from a stong one. As far as internal to external, you hit anyone hard enough and it will cause internal damage. No need to believe in fairy tales.

[LEGEND]

"This BJJ artist doesn't train by rank but I have gone up against him and he is a very good ground fighter. This is not to say that Kung Fu is now better than BJJ, but it is just to show that it is not the art, but the artist that makes the difference."

OK...so how is he a BJJ artist if he doesn't train with a BJJ ranked school? And how can you judge that he is a good ground fighter unless you have trained with a ranked BJJ guy? Yes...the artist makes a difference especially if he's not trained in the ART.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by LEGEND
"This BJJ artist doesn't train by rank but I have gone up against him and he is a very good ground fighter. This is not to say that Kung Fu is now better than BJJ, but it is just to show that it is not the art, but the artist that makes the difference."

OK...so how is he a BJJ artist if he doesn't train with a BJJ ranked school? And how can you judge that he is a good ground fighter unless you have trained with a ranked BJJ guy? Yes...the artist makes a difference especially if he's not trained in the ART.

He has been training in BJJ for over a year now and has never wanted to go for grading. I am currently a practitioner in BJJ aswell, so I know how it feels to practice with a seasoned BJJ artist. Our teacher is cool and he won't force grading on you. He will still teach techniques to you obviously and you still progress in the art.
There's no need for sarcasm or to be snooty budz. The school we train in (I train with the BJJ dude), is lineaged under Marcus Soares. And I mean a direct lineage, he is the instructor's, instructor.

[Shaolinlueb]

Nice NP. was it a b*tch slap?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
He has been training in BJJ for over a year now and has never wanted to go for grading. I am currently a practitioner in BJJ aswell, so I know how it feels to practice with a seasoned BJJ artist. Our teacher is cool and he won't force grading on you. Most legit BJJ schools don't do "grading". The instructor pretty much just throws the belt at you when he thinks you are ready to be at that belt level. If he hasn't received a higher belt, then he is still at white belt level.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Most legit BJJ schools don't do "grading". The instructor pretty much just throws the belt at you when he thinks you are ready to be at that belt level. If he hasn't received a higher belt, then he is still at white belt level.

maybe I just didn't make myself clear. He doesn't want the rank. He is totally set against ranks. So am I. We see rank as not a representation as skill level.

I personally have no with to be ever called Master/Sifu, Sensei, Sigong, Shihan, Shidoshi, anything. But if that is what you all wish to think, that my boy had/has, no skill then go ahead. It matters not.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
maybe I just didn't make myself clear. He doesn't want the rank. He is totally set against ranks. So am I. We see rank as not a representation as skill level. Sorry, but my BS meter is going off. Having been in the BJJ scene for 10 years now, I have a pretty good idea how things work. It doesn't matter whether or not someone "wants' the rank. The instructor just hands him a belt at the end of the class when the student's skill level demonstrates that he is at that belt level. The student has no say in whether or not he wants the rank.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
We see rank as not a representation as skill level. Really? You train at a BJJ school and you don't see the diffence between the different belt ranks as far as BJJ ground skills? What different belt levels have you grappled against?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
I personally have no with to be ever called Master/Sifu, Sensei, Sigong, Shihan, Shidoshi, anything. How do most of the students at your BJJ school address your instructor?

[pedro_sanchez]

Well mr Knifefighter, I like that you have so much time to disect my posts. And your BS meter is going of eh? Good for you. I should get one of those, I think I'll check Best Buy. Or maybe it's a secret you learned from one of Ashida Kim's books.

As far as ranking goes. I have encountered many a BJJ artist. Very good friends with them. But it seems that seeing you've been on the "scene" for 10 years make all of your experiences gospel. right?
A lot of reputable schools dont just throw a belt at you. There are some BJJ schools that grade through tournaments.

I have nothing agains the belt rankings, in any school. I personally dont train for a rank. I have grappled a couple of brown belts and got my ass whooped. I have no shame saying I got beat. I have grappled beginners. I have also grappled a blue belt Judoka. I am not here to write a resume to apply to Knifefighter Inc. So I will not go further as to who I grapple.

I have respect for the Masters etc. I call my Sifu, Sifu and his first name. I call my BJJ instructor by his first name. I call my JKD instrucor by his first name. I respect these men, because they dont require the title. I said I have no wish to be called a Master or Sigong. I only train for my betterment.

Once again mr knifefighter (fitting name seeing you cut up posts). I have nothing but respect for the ranks, it's just they are not for me. I also have nothing against BJJ seeing I have decided to train in it. and btw, I personally, have not trained that long in bjj. Only about 3mths or so.

BTW my Sifu didn't challenge my buddy. My buddy challenged my Sifu. He's was always singing about how BJJ can dub Kung Fu on the ground, and he challenged my Sifu to a friendly grapple match.

Take what you will, I understand you are defensive about your art. I will however not indulge your posturing n e more. I came on this forum to enjoy the learn more and discuss about Kung Fu. Seeing this is after all Kungfumagazine.com.

This post prob extinguished your "BS" meter or set it buzzing so loud it disrubts your night. Either way, I dont have or want to prove n e thing to you or anyone else. So I stand down to you and say you know it all.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
I was actually falling into that mindset until my Sifu patiently explained to me time and time again, it's not the art but the fighter. I understood, but it never sank in. If it is the fighter rather than the art, why are you spending your money to learn BJJ? Taking BJJ is not cheap. Why not just learn grappling from your sifu? After all he did beat a one year white belt, which is actually a pretty good accomplishment.

[pedro_sanchez]

I am taking this like it's a genuine question.

I learn Kung Fu from my Sifu. We dont go to the ground alot. I like grappling, it gives me a great workout, and I dont come out with lumps or get punched in the face on a regular. I like the sparring (grappling) with a partner, I learn a lot of great holds and like I said get a great workout. Besides BJJ is the art for ground techniques. My Sifu encourages me to explore other arts. To "find" my Kung Fu.

I do learn Kung Fu ground fighting from my Sifu, btw. I am not a full time student of BJJ. I take it once to three times a week. I train 2wice a week in JKD and the rest with my Sifu. Kung Fu is my base art. I dont pay my Sifu, and the JKD and BJJ schools are not money grabbers. They teach because they love to teach and they each love to share their art. The JKD school I go to is more of a club n e ways.

My training is for me to find my kung fu. Find my way of fighting. I am still very young in the Martial arts. I've only done boxing b4, the other arts for a little over 4 yrs.

TBH to go into my training is very lengthy, and I dont like typing for long. It is not my wish to be your adversary Knifefighter. Like I said I came to this forum to learn. I love discussing martial arts. You say you have 10 years of experience in BJJ and I would like if I can learn from you. I extend my hand to you in friendship.

[Knifefighter]

OK, then... let's turn this into a productive thread.

Theoretically, in a grappling only match, a person with one year's worth of training in BJJ should be able to beat, or at least hold his own against, someone who doesn't specialize in ground work. Since your training partner had been training in BJJ for a year, he should have at least been able to hang with your sifu, who doesn't really specialize in ground grappling.

From a grappler's perspective what do you think your training partner did wrong?
What things did your he try that didn't work?
What kinds of positions did your instructor have on him?
What submissions did he finish him with?

[LEGEND]

"He has been training in BJJ for over a year now and has never wanted to go for grading. I am currently a practitioner in BJJ aswell, so I know how it feels to practice with a seasoned BJJ artist. Our teacher is cool and he won't force grading on you. He will still teach techniques to you obviously and you still progress in the art."

I'm sorry...I find this VERY WIERD! I have trained with guys from YAMASAKI...LLOYD IRVIN's...FUSION BJJ and they all have rank. So are u saying u are training in a hybrid program? If you are...that's fine...I don't have a ranking either because I trained through a hybrid grappling program but the reality is a BLUE BELT or higher would tap the **** out of most peeps in under 30 seconds. The skill level and technique of higher level RANKED BJJ guys are unbelievable. From what I'm gathering u are probably training in a HYBRID program simply cause BJJ schools are quite strict on ranking so they don't produce ****TY students.

[Lokkan-Do]

After reading your posts I'd like to make some comments here

Kung Fu guys will not be able to hand the BJJ guys on the ground. (because these guys spend alot of time training there)

Guys who train alot of takedowns..especially low level takedowns will take down the Kung Fu guy....because of the element of suprise


This doesn't mean that the Kung Fu guy is inferior (please don't get angry before you understand what I am saying)

Most of the MMA fights do end up on the ground due to gravity, low level attacks 'shoots' and high level kicks by strikers.



If the Kung Fu guy trains to prevent takedowns he will be okay against any ground fighter. During one of the most recent MMA events most of the fights ended with strikes...because most of them learned to avoid takedowns....they were able to keep the fight standing long enough to end it quickly.

Chin-na, San Shou and Chinese wrestling are a great place to start.

By the way...BJJ is no longer king of the ground....wrestling is the most rated art in MMA. Alot of MMA champions nowadays are strikers who learnt the ground game and learnt how to stay on their feet long enough to end it with a KO.

Lok

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by LEGEND
From what I'm gathering u are probably training in a HYBRID program simply cause BJJ schools are quite strict on ranking so they don't produce ****TY students. Notice how he disappeared once a technical discussion of grappling was set to begin.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Lokkan-Do
By the way...BJJ is no longer king of the ground....wrestling is the most rated art in MMA. Actually, the king of the ground for MMA is wrestling + BJJ. Every wrestler who fights MMA has had to learn the BJJ game and the BJJ guys are working wrestling takedowns these days.

[Samurai Jack]

How do you all think Judo compares to BJJ for aquiring ground skill? Sambo? I'd like to take up some sort of groundfighting art for my police work. I already do Aikido, but I ain't fooling myself into thinking this stuff is gonna work on the ground against someone who knows what they're doing unless I've got control with a joint lock before he goes down. On the other hand, rolling around on the concrete with a gun on my hip is pretty low on my "experiences-I-want-to-have-at-work" list. Better safe than sorry, I guess.

[Lokkan-Do]

"Ultimate Fight in Brazil 1951

In July 1951 Kimura and two other fellow Japanese Judoka were asked to compete in Brazil. Kimura at age 34 was accompanied by a 240 pound (110kg) college champion Yamaguchi (6th degree black belt at the time) and Kado (5th degree black belt). It was to be a Judo/Jiu-jitsu fight.

Kado accepted a challenge from Helio Gracie -- Brazilian champion for 20 years. The loser was determined by tapping out due to a choke or armbar, or by being knocked out of commission. Ippon (clean powerful throws) or osaekomi (pinning) would have no effect on the results of competition. During Kado's fight he threw Gracie several times. Gracie, who was in excellent condition, demonstrated ukemi, breaking the throws with little injury. After 10 minutes of frustration, Kado decided to apply a choke. However, the masterful Gracie applied his own choke rendering Kado unconscious. With Kado's passing-out, Gracie was declared the winner and became a national hero of Brazil!

Weeks later, Gracie challenged the remaining two team members, either Yamaguchi or Kimura, to a match. Yamaguchi refused for fear of injury, however Kimura accepted the challenge. There were 20,000 spectators present. A coffin was brought in by Gracie's followers. Presumably, Kimura was to be killed by Gracie. On the day of the match, the President and Vice President of Brazil attended at ringside.

During the fight, Kimura threw Gracie repeatedly with ippon-seoinage (one arm shoulder throw), osotogari (major outer reap), and haraigoshi (sweeping hip/loin). He also included painful suffocating grappling techniques such as kuzure-kamishiho-gatame (modified upper four corner hold), kesa-gatame (scarf hold), sankaku-gatame (triangle hold). Gracie proved to be a formidable opponent refusing to surrender after 12 minutes of grueling fight. Kimura then took Gracie down with an osotogari followed by kuzure-kamishiho-gatame. During the battle that followed, Gracie bridged out of the pin and right into Kimura's ude-garami (chicken-wing arm lock). The arm bar must have been painful but when Gracie refused to surrender, Kimura applied yet more pressure, and as a result Gracie suffered a broken left elbow.

Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his corner "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had great fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's tremendous will to win."

Read more about Kimura on this site. The Gracies named a technique in BJJ 'The Kimura' after him.

-http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura3.htm


Judo concentrates equally on stand up and submission. BJJ concentrates mostly on submission.

Kimura said..BJJ reminded him of pre-war Judo. (Basically they are the same thing with different emphasis.)

The BJJ player's greatest weakness is his takedowns. They are now training with wrestlers to overcome this problem.


Wrestling's contribution to MMA"

The contribution wrestlers made to MMA was 'ground and pound'. The BJJ gaurd was the Gracies greatest tool until wrestlers learnt to use it agains them.

Some wrestlers train specifically to avoid submissions.


Lok

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Lokkan-Do
"Judo concentrates equally on stand up and submission. BJJ concentrates mostly on submission.Most judo programs are about 85% throws and 15% ground work. Most BJJ programs are the opposite- 15% throws/takedowns; 85% groundwork.





Originally posted by Lokkan-Do
"The contribution wrestlers made to MMA was 'ground and pound'. The BJJ gaurd was the Gracies greatest tool until wrestlers learnt to use it agains them.BJJ has always has ground and pound. All you have to do to see this is to watch some of the old vale tudo footage from Brazil. BJJ's strongest tool is the mount, not the guard. The guard is where you end up when you can't take your opponent down and end up with a top control position. Wrestling's main contribution has been takedowns, which forced the BJJers to play the guard game.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
How do you all think Judo compares to BJJ for aquiring ground skill? Sambo? I'd like to take up some sort of groundfighting art for my police work. I already do Aikido, but I ain't fooling myself into thinking this stuff is gonna work on the ground against someone who knows what they're doing unless I've got control with a joint lock before he goes down. On the other hand, rolling around on the concrete with a gun on my hip is pretty low on my "experiences-I-want-to-have-at-work" list. Better safe than sorry, I guess. If you have to be on the ground, I believe BJJ is best for this because of the advantage it give you in terms of positioning strategy, which is ideally suited for weapon retention or disarmament.

[Lokkan-Do]

"BJJ has always has ground and pound"

If you see BJJ guys doing ground and pound these days....it's because Dan Severn showed us how it's done. He invented the strategy when alot of wrestlers were losing because of the gaurd.

Which UFC do you look at?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Lokkan-Do
"BJJ has always has ground and pound"

If you see BJJ guys doing ground and pound these days....it's because Dan Severn showed us how it's done. He invented the strategy when alot of wrestlers were losing because of the gaurd.

Which UFC do you look at? I have tapes of Brazillian vale tudo matches from long before there ever was a UFC. Ground and pound has been around quite a while before Dan Severn used it in the UFC.

While they will use it from inside the guard, BJJ guys prefer to use the G&P after passing the guard and securing the mount.

[Lokkan-Do]

K perhaps mate.

[LEGEND]

"If you see BJJ guys doing ground and pound these days....it's because Dan Severn showed us how it's done. He invented the strategy when alot of wrestlers were losing because of the gaurd.
Which UFC do you look at?"

Poor statement and research...suggest getting the GRACIE IN ACTION tapes which show footages from the 80's of the Gracie beating the hell out of all stylists in their GRACIE challenge...GROUND AND POUND at it's best. While Royce didn't get a chance to demonstrate the ground and pound...to me he was showboating quite a bit...especially on Pat Smith and Ron Van Clief.

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
Nice NP. was it a b*tch slap?

nah, didn't get to back hand him...

[norther practitioner]

lol that someone "invented" ground and pound.. I've seen many a shoolyard fight where this is THE tactic (pre UFC) and I'm darn sure they didn't go to a Gracie school..

lol at me joking about slapping some dude and you guys end up debating BJJ....

[Samurai Jack]

That's because many people associate b@tch slapping dudes with dry humping them on the floor. Or so I'm told.