Training models

[YongChun]

Here are the training models I was exposed to:

Karate model:
6 months: (Joe Lewis was black in 6 months but traditional is 5 years)
White-> Yellow-> Orange -> Green
At each level fight higher levels to get a ranking
Tournament participation at each level.
Karate fighting quality at black belt level was good against Karate.

Hung style model:
Ten years forms and drills. After that go out and fight.
The Hung style fighting quality was good against other styles.

Tai Chi model:
Three years form, three years pushing hands, three years applications, then freestyle sparring and fighting.
The Tai Chi style fighting quality was good against other styles.

Escrima model:
Eight weeks learn to hit, block, disarm, hit block and walk, disarms, sinawali drills, stick chi sau then fight. Another teacher I had taught everything in a few weeks and then hit you everywhere at high speed to get you used to dealing with speed using natural as opposed to drill methods. He was very fast and learned this way as well. No drills, just fast chi sau and free fighting with padded sticks that still made your head bleed.

The results were pretty good in this period of time but not effective against skilled stick artists who put in more time. It was the fastest fighting program of them all.

Wing Chun model1: learn ¼ of the SLT, learn the sticking hands, learn some dummy, learn punching and moving, train 5,000 punches a day, learn maybe half a dozen techniques, do conditioning by punching the face and body and jog. After that throw away the dummy and fight. The training period was 1 to 2 years. This was the routine of Yip Man student Partrick Chow to generate people to fight the Thais.

The result was pretty good against other styles but no individual was found who wanted to go to Thailand to fight. So the teacher went back to Hong Kong again. However I found people who trained just three months in the Wang Kiu system could all handle these skills because of the limited repertoire.

Wing Chun model2: Within three months cover the SLT, CK, BJ, sticking hands, Lap sau, freestyle fighting. Within 6 months cover the dummy, pole and knife. Do freestyle fighting empty hand, free style fighting with the spear and freestyle fighting with the knife. For freestyle fighting we used leather boxing headgear and fingerless gloves. I was injured about three times but I kept at it. I haven’t seen Wing Chun taught that quickly anywhere else yet.

The result was pretty good against other styles, and police, bouncers and security people who applied this stuff in their work had always reported success. One student beat 5 blackbelts in a Vancouver tournament with just 7 months of training. So we found this stuff to quite street effective and a couple of people tried the tournament approach with also good results. The defect was that compared to the Leung Sheung system, they were miles ahead in refinement so even the street fighters among us couldn’t match Ken in the close range. The success rate was zero. The street fighting types took the attitude that Ken had something to offer as opposed to the attitude that they could take him in the ring. Later this teacher changed over to a three year model.

Wing Chun model3: At this point we made a decision to go the Emin Boztepe route or the Kenneth Chung route. The senior people voted for the Kenneth Chung method and the junior people voted for the Emin Boztepe approach. The vote was evenly split. Emin’s model was more along the reality model to learn to fight quickly while Ken’s model was a slower model to pack in the Wing Chun knowledge first.

Wing Chun model4: I talked to one German guy from WT. Their model was in two years train rough and tough, mostly charge in and chain punch, and kick. Learn fighting applications against all the modern kinds of styles through the Lat sau program. Later refine the system with Chi sau. This guy Hung around with Kernspecht and his gang and reported that a few fighters managed to beat up anyone from any style and that got the whole WT thing going. With that approach whole schools switched over to WT with the effect of making WT very strong quickly because of the ready made champions they absorbed from the other arts. The conquer approach didn’t work in Canada or in the USA. The reason may be just a sign of the times and the MMA movement.

My fast fighting Karate methods were not effective against Emin’s approach or Ken’s approach or against Hung style or Tai Chi. It all comes down to what level of Karate, Tai Chi, Hung style or Wing Chun that one is talking about. Without a lot of training in Kung Fu methods, the natural fighting model that seemed to come out of me was the standard kickboxing style of front kick, sidekick, roundkick, hook kick, sweeps, reverse punches, jabs, hooks, uppercuts, elbows, knees, clinches and various trips, throws and tackles. I didn’t see that it was possible to be a real Kung Fu fighter by rushing through the fighting process.

So my model now is to teach the form, teach some drills and applications, spar in a light way and then turn up the intensity so long as the student doesn’t go into garbage flailing mode and throw away everything to do with martial art. For some people fighting success comes in a few months for others many years (maybe 5 years is the norm) and for still other never but even these people are many times better than when they started.

Ray

[Ernie]

Personally I like *Ray’s Model* the best

Since it is based on your journey and personal experience
You have lived it so no one can tell you it’s not true .

You take from all of your endeavors and remember the moments of clarity as well as the moments of confusion and make a map through that course for then next person .

Sure they will still have to walk their own steps , but perhaps you have saved them time and injury .


Now I have a question which styles of fighting would you predicate ‘’ use as a measuring stick ‘’ and evaluate effectiveness

For me it’s
- boxing
- kickboxing /Thai savate etc
- ground / BJJ and equivalent approaches

if I can have a decent level of consistency training with these types then the street guy is less of a threat [ in theory ]

which styles do I not even place on the radar
- pretty much most traditional arts that only work off themselves and don’t have checks and balances
- anything that is non contact and or has a lot of trouble dealing with the arts I use as a measuring stick as a whole in there training methods [ if they can’t figure it out and produce results then they have nothing to offer me ]


now look at what ever list you have as the measuring stick arts , and study there training methods , research them with a open mind , perhaps even hardcore with them and go through the process , go back to your preferred approach and re evaluate it see were it is good and were t goes astray

try and keep all the parrot head knee jerk answers that traditional marketing has built up to blind you [ stuff like but when your old or that’s just strength and so on ] find out for yourself and feel it in your own body and make the choice , most of those arm chair martial artist points of view came from people that never tried it or never spent enough time to get the real skill or to protect there marketing


Ray you have walked your walk and I admire that , think of all the wonderful stuff you have experienced , and the amazing thing is there is so much more out there as long as we keep an open mind and a pure heart

Keep walking on man

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by YongChun
So my model now is to teach the form, teach some drills and applications, spar in a light way and then turn up the intensity so long as the student doesn’t go into garbage flailing mode and throw away everything to do with martial art. For some people fighting success comes in a few months for others many years (maybe 5 years is the norm) and for still other never but even these people are many times better than when they started.


Ray,

IMO, this is a good training model. The approach we use is similar, both in our WC and our Escrima.

1. Teach basics and fundamental theories. This includes; forms, isolated drills (application intro) and theory.

2. Implement sparring in a controlled environment. Heavy on 'rules' until you develop some confidence in your skill. Turning up the intensity is dependent on the person sparring, their confidence and their ability.

3. Introduce new/more complex technique and strategy as ability to understand and employ them increases.

Everyone has their own learning curve, and to 'force' progress when one is not 'ready' is counterproductive.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie wrote:

"Which styles do I not even place on the radar?
- pretty much most traditional arts that only work off themselves and don’t have checks and balances
- anything that is non contact and or has a lot of trouble dealing with the arts I use as a measuring stick as a whole in there training methods [ if they can’t figure it out and produce results then they have nothing to offer me ]..."

Absolutely right on point.

If there's no real contact training and some attempt to work against some of the other styles that have proven to be street/ring effective...where will it all lead? Not to reality fighting - that's for sure.

For example - if you can't make whatever system you're doing work effectively against someone with good boxing skills...why are you doing it?

Training models for today's world require a constant reality check.

[YongChun]

Hi Ernie,

In my path I didn't encounter Thai boxing, BJJ and MMA. If that stuff was around then I am sure I would have gone for those things too. With what I know now I like the approach of:

1. learn BJJ/submission wrestling etc.
2. learn Thai boxing/boxing
3. learn stick and knife stuff.

After that go and study a classical martial art whether it's Wing Chun or Tai Chi or Aikido, or Hung style or whatever. Once you have gone through 1,2 ans 3 then your fear factor of contact sparring is gone. At least you can do it.

The classical arts do have things in them that can take a lifetime to train. Sometimes it is in the shear volume of techniques, sometimes inthe complexity of the techniques and sometimes it is that the attributes or relaxation and sensitivitiy and being able to pull that of in real time is so difficult. I don't know if an empty hand Japanese guy was every able to handle a real Japanese swordsman but if so then I imagine that kind of skill would have taken a long long time to train. However if you start at age 4 then by the time you are in your 20's you can be pretty darn good and still have another 70 years to train after that.

Some of my current training ideas also relate to my age and injuries and of course the type of student mix I have.

I wouldn't look down on anyone's training model. Also people tend to evolve. Maybe each of use will have quite different opinions about everything at age 30, 40, 50 , 60, 70 , 80 and 90.

The whole martial arts scene might change in 20 years. Maybe SanDa will be the rage and everyone will be doing that?

[Ernie]

Hi Ernie,

In my path I didn't encounter Thai boxing, BJJ and MMA. If that stuff was around then I am sure I would have gone for those things to. With what I know now I like the approach of:

1. learn BJJ/submission wrestling etc.
2. learn Thai boxing/boxing
3. learn stick and knife stuff.

After that go and study a classical martial art
--- if you got good at the above list you probably wouldn’t go back to classical unless you want to kick puppies and make them feel bad =)
whether it's Wing Chun or Tai Chi or Aikido, or Hung style or whatever. Once you have gone through 1,2 ands 3 then your fear factor of contact sparring is gone. At least you can do it.
--- a few months in any of them will kill your fear of contact , you will be focusing on personal development right away unless you with a bad group and all they do is pound rip and tear , then life will just suck


The classical arts do have things in them that can take a lifetime to train
--- this line really bugs me , it makes no combative sense if your looking towards being efficient , if it takes a life time then what do you do in the mean time , just get beat up and hope for the magic day the skill is born , and if and when that magic skill is born will it really be so advanced that you will just walk through all other guys , or is there still a pretty good chance the average 20 year old amateur boxer will knock you out on a good day .
taking a life time to develop sounds like a ironic trap , like the day you get your super powers you just drop dead , or your to old to really use them .
. Sometimes it is in the shear volume of techniques,
--- already a non efficient concept , most people know it’s not about how many but a few that work well [ battle tested ]
sometimes in the complexity of the techniques and sometimes it is that the attributes or relaxation and sensitivity and being able to pull that of in real time is so difficult.
--- here you say *sometimes* this would not be enough for me personally it would have to be more like most of the time and for most people , and when you get in and play or pressure test [ to your level] there is a greater chance of developing these skills , now age injury and commitment might be different factors , no problem at all , have to be honest with yourself

I don't know if an empty hand Japanese guy was every able to handle a real Japanese swordsman but if so then I imagine that kind of skill would have taken a long long time to train. However if you start at age 4 then by the time you are in your 20's you can be pretty darn good and still have another 70 years to train after that.
--- this is speculation perhaps you will just die , goes either way and kind of wishful thinking that gets us beat down =)


Some of my currents training ideas also relate to my age and injuries and of course the type of student mix I have.

--- Ray I’m right there with you , that’s why I research other systems and modern approaches were I see older guys still doing things at a high out put and not getting all messed up , my health and the safety of the people I work with is way more important then knocking some one out , that being said the challenge is to keep pushing the boundary , to the best of your ability

I wouldn't look down on anyone's training model. Also people tend to evolve. Maybe each of use will have quite different opinions about everything at age 30, 40, 50 , 60, 70 , 80 and 90.
--- For sure each year self preservation becomes more important to me and one day all the hitting might not be worth it but the experienced gained will stay with me ,
like the difference when you meet an old fighter and an old technician that never fought but can do the moves in a fixed environment
on the out side they might seem similar but when you get in front of them there is a big difference


The whole martial arts scene might change in 20 years. Maybe SanDa will be the rage and everyone will be doing that?
--- maybe but more likely to keep getting ore modern in approach as time goes and the old myths just don’t hold water anymore and no one really shows up on the seen with great old school skill and a training approach that will develop that , people just won’t buy it anymore

[YongChun]

Ray:
1. learn BJJ/submission wrestling etc.
2. learn Thai boxing/boxing
3. learn stick and knife stuff.

After that go and study a classical martial art

Ernie:
--- if you got good at the above list you probably wouldn’t go back to classical unless you want to kick puppies and make them feel bad =)

Ray:
Some people just get tired of competitive, maybe because of age, maybe because of injury or maybe they juts get philosophical and start thinking about the Universe and the five elements and all that kind of stuff.

The classical arts do have things in them that can take a lifetime to train

Ernie:
--- this line really bugs me , it makes no combative sense if your looking towards being efficient , if it takes a life time then what do you do in the mean time , just get beat up and hope for the magic day the skill is born , and if and when that magic skill is born will it really be so advanced that you will just walk through all other guys , or is there still a pretty good chance the average 20 year old amateur boxer will knock you out on a good day .
taking a life time to develop sounds like a ironic trap , like the day you get your super powers you just drop dead , or your to old to really use them .

Ray:
Hi Ernie,
I think it takes a few years to get to 80% fighting level. With the three things on the list maybe it's a lot sooner. Then the other 20% of the time which takes most of your life you are just polishing and working on very fine points and details. These don't add a lot to overall skill and are not the things that stop a 20-year-old boxer from beating you up. The 80% stuff does that. But maybe those things are what separate experts such that one can dominate over another. Maybe it doesn’t relate to fighting at all but more to the art of it. Maybe in the beginning you are working on distancing, timing, power, sparring ability. Maybe later you work on other factors to compensate for aging but those factors are a lot harder to pull off than the use of pure power and speed, which most young people have. For example I can bulldoze my way through a smaller person but to use less strength than him to do it, maybe this is game playing, to use less energy than he uses, that takes more doing. Now if my opponent is much bigger than me then I can't smash and speed my way through him. He might train just as hard as me. We are both fighters but he is physically better. Then maybe some new idea in my fighting might be able to take care of some perceived weakness in his approach. Maybe the Tai Chi people figure that a highly developed level of sensitivity can tip the scales. But they need the 80% fighting ability first. A lot go for the 20% enhancements and never train the base 80% so that's what's the problem.

In classical music, art , dance or anything like that it takes one at least ten years of heavy duty work to get to a good level of skill. Those things are all physical as well. Just taking Tai Chi pushing hands skill, from my experience that kind of skill takes a long time to develop. Some people take years to relax. Whether that is useful for fighting is a different topic. Yet it is a kind of skill that has something to do with fighting. It is a skill you put on top of a fighting base to enhance one's skill. Once you age, you need some other factors to try to compensate for a decline in strength. The Gracies use smart techniques.

Ernie:
. Sometimes it is in the shear volume of techniques,
--- already a non efficient concept , most people know it’s not about how many but a few that work well [ battle tested ]
sometimes in the complexity of the techniques and sometimes it is that the attributes or relaxation and sensitivity and being able to pull that of in real time is so difficult.

Ray:
I learned basic wrestling. Now when I look at BJJ, they seem to have countless techniques. There are counters and counters to counters. That stuff just adds up. To an experienced guy it doesn't seem like there are any techniques because it all just becomes a feeling. But to the beginner trying to learn the stuff, it seems like there are millions of techniques.

Some arts like Aikido have just accumulated lots of stuff over history. Some people like to keep the trend going and don't like to throw away all those things and then risk someone having to re-invent it all again.

Choy Lee Fut was probably the last major Kung Fu style to have been invented. In one of my books it lists about 115 forms. A teacher maybe is good at a few things but to pass on the art, he has to learn it all. If you were to drop stuff from the art then would you drop the spear, the Butterfly knife, the pole, the fan, the dummy, the Crane stuff, the Tiger stuff, the Leopard stuff? Which? You can't really drop stuff; it's part of the classical art. Modern arts don't need any of those things just like modern rock music doesn't need Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin and all those other guys. But some people like to keep that stuff alive and don't have a taste for the modern.

Some people agree that the modern stuff is good but they are stubborn and want to keep the classical stuff alive too.

Ernie:
--- here you say *sometimes* this would not be enough for me personally it would have to be more like most of the time and for most people, and when you get in and play or pressure test [ to your level] there is a greater chance of developing these skills , now age injury and commitment might be different factors , no problem at all , have to be honest with yourself

Ray:
To me I see going through the pressure testing stage , being able to fight, being satisfied that you can fight and then what? Some people are bored with fighting in the ring every week. So some say, ok let's take this crap art called Tai Chi, Ba Gua or Aikido and let's see if we can make that work. Let's see where it succeeds and where it breaks down. Let's see how that can be turned into something useful. For each art you have to do what they do. Not all arts can follow the model of putting on boxing gloves and helmets and going at it. For example locking and counter locking can not be developed easily doing that. BJJ cannot be developed by wrestling with boxing gloves and helmet. You have to do what those folks do. Ba Gua people feel that without the root and the rooted mobility you cannot make the art function. They say the circle walking develops this and that this process takes years. I never tried that stuff so what do I know? Those people have been doing that for centuries so maybe they know something? I know modern Ba Gua guys that also mix it up but they didn't throw away their classical training approach. Some people aren't in any hurry and like to slowly digest their art.

Ray:
The whole martial arts scene might change in 20 years. Maybe SanDa will be the rage and everyone will be doing that?
Ernie:
--- maybe but more likely to keep getting ore modern in approach as time goes and the old myths just don’t hold water anymore and no one really shows up on the seen with great old school skill and a training approach that will develop that , people just won’t buy it anymore

Ray: I think SanDa is China's effort to modernize the old Kung Fu training methods. As a test of their theories they fight against the Thais. From all the discussions we are having I would think you guys have to agree with that approach

[Tydive]

Very interesting reading.

I would break out my training into a few different methods.

1. Theory: Meaning that the instructor would demonstrate a technique to the entire class, we would practice it a number of times in the air then pair off to practice the new technique. Then an instructor or assistant came around and provided corrections. As you learn the forms you are rewarded with rank, you become an assistant, and get more one on one time with the main instructor.

This seems to be the primary model found in TMA environments.

2. Practical: As a group we all do the same drills, then break out and do individual drills depending on what our weaknesses are (as directed by your group leader or primary instructor). Then we have bouts where you can choose to focus on specific techniques or not. Your group and any available instructor can provide feedback. You are judged and points are awarded, ranks are based on the outcome of your bouts.

This model is closer to what I have seen in "sport" or competition environments (Boxing, Fencing etc...).

Most places that I have trained had a combo of the two modes, some more theory based others more practice based.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by YongChun
Choy Lee Fut was probably the last major Kung Fu style to have been invented. In one of my books it lists about 115 forms. A teacher maybe is good at a few things but to pass on the art, he has to learn it all. If you were to drop stuff from the art then would you drop the spear, the Butterfly knife, the pole, the fan, the dummy, the Crane stuff, the Tiger stuff, the Leopard stuff? Which? You can't really drop stuff; it's part of the classical art. Modern arts don't need any of those things just like modern rock music doesn't need Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin and all those other guys. But some people like to keep that stuff alive and don't have a taste for the modern.



Honestly, 115 forms is a joke.
There are really about 3 main forms in Choy Lee Fut.

Same goes for Eagle Claw. There's a hundred plus forms.
Really there's 3 main ones. And if you look at those 3 critically it's padded with a lot of variations of the same basic ideas.

Learning all that extra stuff is really just for fun.
The skill of the art is pretty much covered by 3 or so forms. Less really.

A lot of art is just "for the sake of art". It has no purpose outside of itself. Saying every art is 100% eventually useful after 20 years is way too lenient. More often than not it's just an excuse for being 90% useless.

If some difficult technique is useful and you spend 20 years practicing until you finally master it, can you really say it's an important fighting technique to learn? Really you're just learning it out of interest not necessity.

As far as martial arts students are concerned, most stick with it due to gaining an interest not out of necessity anyway. Which is why classical arts like your Aikido, Bagua and Taiji survive and thrive. Fighting skill level doesn't factor in much.

[Kevin Bell]

Training models i was exposed to:

Amateur Boxing (junior):8 years. 1985-1992

Taekwondo:1995-2001

VT:1997 till present

I agree with Ernie about measuring yourself/exposing yourself to a good Boxer,i still pop in the boxing club workout - skip,shadowbox and spar a few times a month.

Things i would like to look into:BJJ/ground fighting.

I've also had worked out with guys in the military who've had exposure to Krav Maga weapons fighting drills and work out with Tai boxing buddys whenever Time allows.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Edmund
Honestly, 115 forms is a joke.
There are really about 3 main forms in Choy Lee Fut.



I just read that in one of my Choy Lee Fut books.

In my Hung style there was:

1. Eagle claw form
2. Double ten form
3. Another version of double ten from another master
4. 36 movement form
5. Budda form
6. a few other forms
7. Pole
8. Trident
9. Butterfly knife
10. Sword
11. Butterfly knife and Shield
12. Wooden bench
13. 9 section steel whip
14. Spear
15. Lion dance
16. Butterfly knife vs empty hand
17. Butterfly knife and shield vs Trident
18. Quan knife
19. Pole vs pole
20. Spear vs sword
21. Some fist vs fist patterns
22. Wooden dummy
23. Some two people wooden dummy
24. Some more stuff

This was a village style Hung style. The other kind had the 5 animals and 10 elements.

From what I remember of the Choy Lee fut stuff, it had much of the above as well as many more weapons, the animal forms, various things against other things, some fan work, some point hitting forms, various types of dummy forms so it all added up.

The core stuff is probably contained in just a few forms and all the rest are variations from various masters. I think there were 18 classical weapons. If you combine some of these against each other then you get some more forms.

In my Hung style no student did the same forms. The forms were tailored to the student's characteristics. This a long armed guy might do crane stuff and a short sticky guy might do tiger stiff. A tall guy would do the long pole and sword, a short guy might do Butterfly knife and spear. One guy did a Trident form and nobody else did that. Another guy did the Butterfly knife and shield and no one else did that. An so it went. Then eventually whoever would learn it to teach, would learn all the rest of the stuff. There was one form that everyone did which contained all the basic handwork and footwork. Different weapons had different tactics and patterns of use. Thus a Quan Do which was heavy used downward movements to make use of gravity but the spear had a lot more upward cutting movements and thrusts.

Then in Hung style there was also 108 wooden hoop movements, iron ring work, bean barrel stuff to train the hands, and all kins of supplementary exercises. also there were various types of arm smashing type of conditioning drills.

One of my teachers was from Hung style and the other from Choy Lee Fut. So I saw a lot of stuff but that was only a subset of what I read about for those styles.


Ray

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by YongChun
Now when I look at BJJ, they seem to have countless techniques. There are counters and counters to counters. That stuff just adds up. To an experienced guy it doesn't seem like there are any techniques because it all just becomes a feeling. But to the beginner trying to learn the stuff, it seems like there are millions of techniques.


IME this isnt quite true. There are about five positions for the guy on the bottom and about five positions for the guy on the top. Then there are about five bread and butter submissions i.e. arm bar, kimura, americana, Rear naked choke and triangle which you learn to apply from the different positions and how to flow from one to another as your opponent tries to counter each submission attempt. Its true that guard passing and sweeps from the guard do have many variations but once you understand the underlying principles of leverage and bodymechanics they're not that hard to pick up.

[YongChun]

Hi Nick,

Ok, that's encouraging. So there should be no excuse for anyone not to learn a bit of that stuff.

Ray

[YongChun]

Hey I was wrong about the 115 Choy Lee Fut forms. An Australian website says there are 190 so I stand to be corrected. It puts my Hung style stuff to shame, I only learned about 10 forms in that.

http://www.choyleefut.com.au/

"The Choy Lee Fut system has over 190 forms classified into 3 levels of learning. These forms include the following:

traditional fist and weaponry forms, either in solo or multiple person sparring sets,
Shaolin wooden dummy forms for hand techniques and weaponry,
sand bag techniques and forms,
qigong (internal) forms and traditional Chinese medical theories; and
lion dance sets.
The external sets are harder and faster, designed to condition and to benefit muscle and bone and to increase stamina. The internal sets are slower, flowing and more relaxed. They promote internal organ harmony, correct breathing and a healthier stronger body."

Ray

[Edmund]

All those 115->190 forms are just for fun.

Just learning for the sake of learning.
It doesn't have anything to do with becoming a "real Kung fu fighter". People just add more and more.

Even the weapons. There's 4 basic weapons in Chinese Martial arts: broadsword, straight sword, spear, and staff. If you know how to use those you've got most of the real weapons skills.