Contracts

[Lindley57]

" My comment is in regards to the contract itself not the cost. If something is worth the price pay it, I'm not suggesting to be a cheapskate.

The problem is the contract. Can anyone give a good reason that a contract is nessisary? If the instruction is good and the student is happy, there is no need to have a contract. A contract is a legal binding document, what kind of legal binding is required to learn MA? To me, it just seems like bad chess."


__________________
Justin.


If the people are good and the cops are good, then why do we need laws? The above view is one of ideality. Yes, in a perfect world, a happy student would pay their tuition responsibly and a great teacher would be an excellent fighter as well as an excellent translator of knowledge. Unfortunately, in most cases, this is not the case. From one who runs and owns a school of 30 students, I could make a small fortune on the number of "happy" students who decided, for whatever reason, not pay their tuition, albeit on time. They even say they are happy and often times just do not treat the school like they would a bill at home.

I have found that going to a professional collection system has made extreme gains for our schools ability to be professional and provide quality instruction. Our students are happier because of it. One who studies does not have any clue to the stress an instructor may have when the landlord is calling on their left hand and the student tuition pot is dry or low on the right hand. I have had people relate stories to me about schools closing and they did not even know why. Often times they blame the instructor for deserting them.

We do not offer contracts because our school is not my full time financial endeavor. However, I could understand a need for them for those who do Kung Fu instruction full time. The true choice is how an instructor wants to live their life.

I would like to invite School owners and teachers, both big (greater than 15 students) and small, to comment on their experiences with tuition collection and whether contracts are used or not used for their situation.

Good luck in your Kung Fu!

[KingMonkey]

Well you can set up a monthly direct debit without anybody signing a contract and being locked into a whole year's worth of fees.
This ensures the school gets its money every month on time but students are free to leave after 3/6 months if their circumstances change/they dont enjoy the class etc etc.

[YongChun]

I think if you really want to be successful and make a living from teaching then you can't just have a casual approach where students come and go as they please, don't pay on time and pay low fees. If the fees are too low then no one really appreciates what you are teaching them. Bump up the fees, have contracts, have uniforms, have a structured program, hide the rough stuff from the beginners then you can start to succeed. A lot of schools close because they have no good business model.

A lot of people were jealous of Leung Ting because they said their Wing Chun was better than his but he was making all the money. It's because Leung Ting realized that just martial art skill is not enough. To run a real business you have to do a lot more. Maybe that involves propaganda, deception and all kinds of other things. That's the real world.

Some people from WT have used his successful model to make equal fortunes. At the same time he has a lot of happy campers who enjoy what he offers. Whether someone else's Wing Chun might be better is of no relevance. He has good people in his organization who can fight and is not concerned that ALL members are fighters.

So I see the key as consisting of a well planned structured model for teaching plus a solid business plan. William Cheung and Leung Ting both did pretty good in these areas. Many other wing Chun clubs are just out of someone's basement or garage, no formal program, no contracts, no uniforms, low fees, a casual approach. They never make it big. Often this is because Wing Chun is just a hobby and not a living. Both approaches can generate good students and also bad students. The organized approach probably produces more good students.

Not everyone is business minded and understands the franchise idea and ideas of multilevel marketing. To be a real success you need that. The small casual approach can be rewarding depending onthe people that join but sometimes with that approach you wonder if all that time spent is a waste or not. wong Shun Leung said at first he had no concern for money and taught for very little but that didn't support the family as he was told by his wife.

Fun is nice but not at the expense of one's family. I have lots of experience in the latter approach. I would advise anyone wanting to make a livingat it to study marketing, look into business plans and study those martial arts organizations that are successful. These days a lot of organizations find it helps to diversify by offering fitness programs, MMA, BJJ, Thai training, the classical stuff, kids classes, seniors classes, women's classes, etc. Those making the money could care less what others think. They laugh all the way to the bank. quality can be argues forever. Those who cut down Leung Ting or William Cheung haven't been able to prove they have something better for the mass market. For the niche market , they don't care.

[KingMonkey]

I think if you really want to be successful and make a living from teaching then you can't just have a casual approach where students come and go as they please

Lol ! Why dont you chain them up in a basement.

If your main focus is making money, in most cases you would do better investing your efforts in things other than MA's IMHO (obviously there are exceptions).

Mcdonalds are very succesful at churning out lots of hamburgers and profiting from it, but not too successful at making a good hamburger - successful ? yes and no. Depends whether you're the one eating it to a large extent.

[YongChun]

I use the casual approach myself, that's why I'm still poor but happy. However rich people also consider themselves poor if the next rich guy has something that he doesn't have.

Ray

[Lindley57]

I thought YongChun's original reply was insightful. The purpose of this post is to invite real experiences, not people's ideals. There is nothing wrong with making money if you do things in a well organized manner and there is a genuine intent. Too many people still feel martial arts training is mysterious and that instructors must "do it as a hobby". A Sifu's experiences are priceless. If you love Martial Arts, why can't one put the same efforts they would behind a desk? Behind a computer?

[old jong]

I use the casual approach myself. I don't have a lot of students but the majority of them are very good and dedicated students and I enjoy teaching them and practicing with them.I don't earn my living from my school so I don't worry about the commercial aspect very much.As long as I don't have to pay for teaching!...(But I used to do it in the beginning!) ;)

Maybe I will get more into the business side when I retire from my job at the hospital?...I don't know. ;) It's O.K. for now.

[Ernie]

if the talent is there they will come and stay

quick example my friend[ leave out name for privacy ] has no contracts and clears 7-10 grand a month and only teaches a few hours a day

people line up to work with him

he is just that good

now the difference is it is not a school it's only privates

all the skilled people i have every paid has been the same way i respect there talant and there time

i don't step up unless i have what there asking

no since it's only a private training situation things might be different

but if the talant is there people will respect that

contracts give me a icky vibe --- my POV

[couch]

Contracts?

http://www.templekungfu.com/home.htm

Thank you...
and goodnight. :)

[anerlich]

My instructor has contracts via one of the Executive MA organisations. He changed from one he didn't like to a better one recently.

People can pay for 6/12 months, but they can cancel the contract early, suspend it while they are sick or travelling etc.

The main reason is that monitoring and collecting overdue fees is a time-consuming and huge PITA. There is rent, utilities, equipment, maintenance, etc. to pay.

I've never understood why you can't make a buck out of MA. Samuel Johnson said something long the lines of working for money is among the purest and most straightforward of motives. My brother is a starving artist - it's way overrated.

It's possible to rip people off, but teaching MA professionally and full time allows the teacher to rent premises and tailor them to the purpose, and spend all his time developing curricula, doing research, etc.

"However rich people also consider themselves poor if the next rich guy has something that he doesn't have."

Something of an overgeneralisation, I think. Some but hardly all are like this. If being poor is being virtuous, I'm happy to accpet the burden of any extra cash of which you want to divest yourself ;)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by anerlich

"However rich people also consider themselves poor if the next rich guy has something that he doesn't have."

Something of an overgeneralisation, I think. Some but hardly all are like this. If being poor is being virtuous, I'm happy to accpet the burden of any extra cash of which you want to divest yourself ;)

I'm just kidding OK. I read that somewhere. I believe if you are a good teacher you should get paid for it. To make a living you have advertising costs, equipment costs, insurance costs, accountant costs, all kinds of things not to mention you have to eat, pay a mortgage, school rent etc. etc. If you want to promote Wing Chun internationally then then there are plane trips, hotel costs, video production costs, book costs, it's endless. If you don't get paid a decent amount then you can't really do a good job to promote the art in a big way.

Lat time I looked it cost about $50,000 to make a low budget professional exercise video. I'm all for some good teacher getting paid a lot so he can make a few good videos as well as being able to promote the art to more people.



Private fitness instructor's get $120 an hour in some places. Some music and dance teachers also charge a lot. If you are good then there is nothing wrong with charging a high price. Students are free to go where they find value unless they are tied into a long contract of course.

[couch]

I can believe that collecting monthly fees is much more tedious than all practicioners signing contracts on the same day for X months. And with monthly bills such as rent, light, heat, etc...it would be nice to have a chunk of change sitting in the bank. This may work well for commercial schools as they may have many students.

Even though there are a few of us who are instructed by my Sifu, it is up to our honesty and integrity to pay up each month.

Business is business. If you make the martial arts club into a business, prepare to spend a lot of time on the money side...maybe more than you are training.

Contracts can get silly. I've signed contacts that were 4 pt print on legal paper. Also, I've signed simple ones that stated that if I quit, I don't get my money back for what I've paid up front.

They scare practicioners and help instructors sleep better.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
My instructor has contracts via one of the Executive MA organisations. He changed from one he didn't like to a better one recently.

People can pay for 6/12 months, but they can cancel the contract early, suspend it while they are sick or travelling etc.

The main reason is that monitoring and collecting overdue fees is a time-consuming and huge PITA. There is rent, utilities, equipment, maintenance, etc. to pay.

I've never understood why you can't make a buck out of MA. Samuel Johnson said something long the lines of working for money is among the purest and most straightforward of motives. My brother is a starving artist - it's way overrated.

It's possible to rip people off, but teaching MA professionally and full time allows the teacher to rent premises and tailor them to the purpose, and spend all his time developing curricula, doing research, etc.

"However rich people also consider themselves poor if the next rich guy has something that he doesn't have."

Something of an overgeneralisation, I think. Some but hardly all are like this. If being poor is being virtuous, I'm happy to accpet the burden of any extra cash of which you want to divest yourself ;)

To me having a 'contract' with this kind of flexability doesn't really count the same, it's more like setting up a pre-arranged payment method. That's ok. It's the contracts that state things like 'you will pay X amount for X amount of training, should you decide to quit/resign before that time is up you forfeit your cash' or the instructor requireing X $ for all instruction through X level. If the student decides either the training isn't all that or that he just doesn't jive with the teacher or classmates and wants to leave early and he loses the balance of his payment, that's bogus.

I can understand and appreciate the need to pay bills and maintain the kwoon, equipment etc. I just believe there are better models for accomplishing this than a contract. I've seen some schools that offer both monthly payment and anual and semi-annual deals as well as others, this gives the regular mo. to mo. payment method for the person who isn't sure yet and the option to pay in advance for those who know they are going to be in it for the long haul.