MANTIS PRACTITIONERS why?

[shirkers1]

Since my threads seem to always get jacked by ignorant garbage talk from people who don’t even study praying mantis kung fu. I’ll just start another one.

Why do you train/study mantis kung fu? Why train a traditional style at all? Why study a style that takes after a little bug? It can’t be useful in combat right? I mean that is the opinion of many MMA’s out there so I’d like to hear what the mantis practitioners here have to say about why they train. I know that some people train for self defense, hobbies, staying in shape etc. Maybe age or body handicaps don't allow the average person to train MMA. Or maybe they just don’t want to bump and grind with another man on a smelly mat. I don’t know. All I can do is speak for myself and ask why you train.

I started off with american boxing, I always had a knack for fighting. I ran across northern mantis when I was 15 and I could see the straight up street value of the art. I never looked back or to an outside art. My teacher has a back ground in Choy, I enjoy some of the tactics and power created by this style. But I love mantis, and I stuck with it. It has everything I need in a style. Over the years the experience and first hand knowledge I’ve obtained through my training has shown me that it’s very effective in combat period. Whether it’s dealing with a boxer, ground fighter, kicker, etc I feel that the training I’ve received has given me the tools to hold my own against these other styles. It keeps my mind and body in shape, and I do it every day. It’s a part of my life and I enjoy it. That is why I still study mantis and train in this style “taken after a bug” to quote others. So tell me why do you study mantis or any other MA for that matter?

[Reggie1]

I think I do it for a lot of the same reasons you do.

#1--I don't care about my style teaching me to beat some guy's tail in a ring. That's not why I train. I'm training because I want something that gets me in good shape, and this is the best thing going for keeping me in shape.

#2--I'm not interested in getting banged up every day when I train by training 100% of the time against active resistance. I'm too old for that.

#3--I'm intersted in self-defense and combat training, but I could care less if some BJJ guy or MMA guy who trains 6 days a week can beat me down. Most of the senior guys in my class can beat me down, too. I don't think I'm going to run into any street fights w/ BJJ or MMA guys. I never did back in my fighting days.

#4--My sifu is awesome. He is the best teacher that I found in town, and he teaches 7* mantis kung fu. 7* is a pretty cool art.

[EarthDragon]

shirkers, I dont think your thread will get many responses on this board as it is sarcastic in content and geared toward and already prejudice in mind set.

your better off asking why would someone who's not interested in a certain type of style come on and ask everyones opionon about it.

be well.

[shirkers1]

The sarcasm is pointed at those who think that a style resembling a bug is useless just because it resembles a little bug. I would like to know why others train this style. This question is directed at MANTIS practitioners not other styles so hopefully I get responses from mantis practitioners instead of garbage from people who have nothing to do with the art we train. Does that make sense now?

[SaMantis]

Pretty much what Reggie 1 said. Except I don't study 7*.

I like the uniqueness of the art overall; I like the introduction to a wholly different culture than my own; I like working with the theory behind mantis fist. There's a lifetime of material to work with and it doesn't matter if you decide to take it into the ring and fight, or just study it on your own. But I guess you could say the same of a lot of martial arts, so it really boils down to "I like this one."

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

EarthDragon
The real question is "Why would someone who's not interested in a certain type of style come on, insult everyone here, and try to convince us to switch to his style?".

Same reason that Jehova Witnesses canvass neighborhoods looking for new converts (and about as welcome too).

Reggie1
Good points.

shirkers1
I started out in Kenpo (multiple flavors), did some TKD and Shotokan because it was convenient, ended up with White Crane. When I moved to central Florida my teacher recommended the Wah Lum Temple. When I got out here I went to an anniversary show and was impressed with the level of skill. Especially Master Chan Pui. I didn't see too much around and the local Kenpo school was closed (plus I was more interested in Chinese Kung Fu at the time) so I signed up.

Wah Lum is a hybrid style with southern influences (which doesn't bother me in the least) but the taste of NPM just stuck with me. I'm still partial to Kenpo (fond, and painful, memories) but don't think I could go back. My other interest is Choy Lay Fut. I see NPM as a game of chess while CLF is a game of checkers.

[Knifefighter]

Why I don't study PM.
- I think there are more efficient ways to learn to fight than by imiating bugs.
- I want to train with and against the toughest fighters.
- I want to be able to use my stuff in a variety of applications including weapons fighting, ring fighting, self-defense, street fighting, and grappling competitions.
- I want to train in something that pushes my fitness levels to 100%.
- I want to train in something that I can practice hard against a fully resisting opponent.
- I want something that has a variety of "dirty tricks" and hard core techniques.
- I want to have the best chance against anyone I might have to face- boxer, BJJ fighter, knife fighter, Muay Thai fighter, wrestler, judoka, or TMA practitioner.

[shirkers1]

Knifefighter

I'm glad you are happy with what you do. It's just too bad you are so closed minded that you can't see that northern mantis has all of that and more. If you came and worked out with me, which you are more than welcome to. You would see that the mindset and tactics are not that different from what you seek. I'll leave it at that, you can pm me with a rebuttal if you like. Don't jack the thread with useless banter.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1

Why do you train/study mantis kung fu? Why train a traditional style at all? Why study a style that takes after a little bug? It can’t be useful in combat right? I mean that is the opinion of many MMA’s out there so I’d like to hear what the mantis practitioners here have to say about why they train.


That is the reason your threads get jacked by mma guys... you ask for it.

I know that some people train for self defense, hobbies, staying in shape etc. Maybe age or body handicaps don't allow the average person to train MMA. Or maybe they just don’t want to bump and grind with another man on a smelly mat. I don’t know. All I can do is speak for myself and ask why you train.

so instead of bumping and grinding with a man, you'd rather live out a fantasy of being a bug? :D Like I said, you ask for it. At my school, we mop the mats after every session. They are NOT smelly...


So tell me why do you study mantis or any other MA for that matter?

I like contact. judo, bjj and muay thai provide plenty.

I like to compete.

The hard training keeps me in shape and on top of my game.

competing against others shows me how well I am progressing and points out what I need to improve upon.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Knifefighter

I'm glad you are happy with what you do. It's just too bad you are so closed minded that you can't see that northern mantis has all of that and more. If you came and worked out with me, which you are more than welcome to. You would see that the mindset and tactics are not that different from what you seek. I'll leave it at that, you can pm me with a rebuttal if you like. Don't jack the thread with useless banter.

lol, now who's trying to convert whom?

I don't think it's an issue of closed mindedness...knife and I have TMA backgrounds. I've trained in longfist, jun fan and karate. knife has trained in wing chun. I work out with my shuai chiao friends when I can and I love it.

[Reggie1]

"I like contact. judo, bjj and muay thai provide plenty."

h-o-m-o.:D

Just kidding. You could probably kick my a** six ways from Sunday.

"I like to compete.

The hard training keeps me in shape and on top of my game."

See, I think it's just different strokes for different folks. I'm not as interested in competing and all of the contact. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind a little contact, and am of the opinion that you HAVE to spar to learn any MA, but I just don't recover as fast from the bumps and bruises any more. And like my first post said--The #1 reason I started an MA was to get in better shape. What I do does that just fine for me.

[EarthDragon]

shirker I apologize. I have just been going over this same argument on the main board with no avail.and i thought you came on this board to bash.

For the people that dont think mantis is effective are speaking out of their lack of understanding.
Or they havent fought a mantis player. Our system of mantis 8 step is extremley violent.
We are taught to rip pull and tear. When it goes to the ground we do ground mantis "fighting from a fallen position" This is similar to wrestling but with joint locks as found in BJJ.

We dont fight for sport or points which is why maybe some people have such a closed mind about it and ignorant point of view.
Also they think that the entire system is mimicking the bug. They do not understand that the locking and trapping, moving and dodging is from the insect not the entire fighting system. We have shuai chiao, tong bei, xingyi, eagle claw, and taiji mixed with bagua foot work. What else could make it better? it has a little of everything. it is by far superior to any other tradtyional art i have seen. And has far deeper roots than any hybrid ring or point fighting style used for sport.

Why have I spent 26 in it? please read above.

And also for the internal soft side medicine and healing aspects.

[shirkers1]

E dragon no problem. My bold type was asking for mantis practitioners to respond instead of non mantis guys so my thread doesn't get jacked.... again. But oh well doesn't look like that will happen, but I'm not going to respond to those posts.

So far good answers from the MANTIS PRACTITIONERS.

So all of us seem to have the same views and reasons for training our mantis. Or at least along the same lines or thinking. Just want to make sure we all see this and aren't blinded by other outside forces. Hope to see all of you at the gathering in cleveland next spring. It should be a great time to cross train with other mantis practitioners.

[EarthDragon]

people like seven star are not worth responding to. This guy is supposed to be a moderater on the main board but then made degrading jokes about my dead mother.
I have absolutly no respect for him and plan on contacting everyone at the magazine and the web desingner and have him removed fom his duties as he has no business on here what so ever.
dont waste your time shirkers.. how long have you been training? and where what style

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by shirkers1
It's just too bad you are so closed minded that you can't see that northern mantis has all of that and more. If you came and worked out with me, which you are more than welcome to. ou would see that the mindset and tactics are not that different from what you seek. I'm always willing to be proven wrong. When you come out here to work out with enforcer, look me up and you can show me how good your stuff is.

[shirkers1]

going on 14 years with northern 7 star praying mantis. Under sifu mike biggie in akron ohio. I've been in AZ since 98 and I'm currently teaching out here.



KNIFEFIGHTER I said PM me.

[mexenergy]

Say PM guys, don't let all the inflated mma egos get you down on your art. They seem to go to every forum and post the same kinds of things. It gets old, I know. I don't do PM, I do WC and I understand the way shirkers feels. It's all these guys care about is who they can whoop, what's most effective and ya-di, ya-di ya-di. Dry land swimming, dry land swimmers teaching, blah. You're right in they have no respect for other people's paths in life. Just because they've run across some inexperienced TMArtists, that all of it's a joke. Don't let them get to you. When their bodies break down in time from all that going at it 100% crap, we're be the venerable. As I'm sure they'll have something to say about this post as well. People study PM cuz they like it. People study WC cuz they like it. People study TC cuz they like it. That's why.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Reggie1
"I like contact. judo, bjj and muay thai provide plenty."

h-o-m-o.:D


shhhhhh, that's our shecret! :D


See, I think it's just different strokes for different folks. I'm not as interested in competing and all of the contact. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind a little contact, and am of the opinion that you HAVE to spar to learn any MA, but I just don't recover as fast from the bumps and bruises any more. And like my first post said--The #1 reason I started an MA was to get in better shape. What I do does that just fine for me.

yeah, it's definitely different strokes for different folks - that's one of the good things about MA and training in general - there is no one set way to do it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mexenergy
Say PM guys, don't let all the inflated mma egos get you down on your art. They seem to go to every forum and post the same kinds of things. It gets old, I know. I don't do PM, I do WC and I understand the way shirkers feels. It's all these guys care about is who they can whoop, what's most effective and ya-di, ya-di ya-di. Dry land swimming, dry land swimmers teaching, blah. You're right in they have no respect for other people's paths in life. Just because they've run across some inexperienced TMArtists, that all of it's a joke. Don't let them get to you. When their bodies break down in time from all that going at it 100% crap, we're be the venerable. As I'm sure they'll have something to say about this post as well. People study PM cuz they like it. People study WC cuz they like it. People study TC cuz they like it. That's why.

actually, on the WC forum, many of the WC guys are sport fighting advocates - anerlich, joy, ultimatewingchun, ernie....

as for bodies breaking down, that's not from the art, but from competition. If there were a full contact mantis circuit, you would see similar things happening. You just have to recognize when it's time to stop competing. One of my judo coaches is 75 and still taps guys. He's not broken yet...

[bung bo]

I always like the stuff you post, shirkers1. It's serious and that's very refreshing material compared to the crap on the main forum from the guys who don't train. I want to say that I like what 7* has to say, too. I know you said you only wanted mantis players to respond, but he is mature with his replies and has a lot of combat knowledge. (He's not a d1ck)

Even though mantis gong fu is very combat effective, that isn't the main purpose for me. What I mean is--I train hard for myself, not for kicking @ss. The fact that I train hard and push my limits. Obviously, I woundn't be training it if I didn't think it is combat effective. I like the in-close fighting, the relentless attacking, and adaptability, among other things. Just have Tito Ortiz or any other prizefight fight a real master, the kind who doesn't care about showing off, and Tito will get his lunch eaten. Of course anything martial grew out of a basic need to know how to defend oneself from another. Hence, fight training. Too many people take this too far and think one must beat the sh1t out of themselves and opponent everyday. They say,'This is what real MA is about." This is not what real MA is about. Real MA is knowing yourself and trying hard at your endeavors, and if that is fight training, really train, not just beat your head aganst a wall. Real MA is a vehicle for self-cultivation. That's what Mantis is teaching me.

[shirkers1]

7 star Please PM personal arguments that don't concern the topic. If you're cool then you'll do that, instead of jacking the thread. You know I enjoy your constructive criticism but please don't turn this thread into what the other threads turn into. If you are a moderator than you would respect what I just asked.

thanks,
mark

[Oso]

Originally posted by SevenStar
If there were a full contact mantis circuit, you would see similar things happening.

stay tuned, there is a mantis specific san da ruleset that is apparently used in Poland and China. There is conversation going on about instituting it here. Hopefully it will be a main topic of next years Mantis meeting at the Great Lakes Tourney in Cleveland.





Just have Tito Ortiz or any other prizefight fight a real master, the kind who doesn't care about showing off, and Tito will get his lunch eaten.


c'mon man, I know you're smarter than that...no way to know unless a 'real master' steps up...I don't like Tito that much but there is no doubt that he trains his ass off and is a very good fighter. a 'real master' might beat him. Tito might beat a 'real master'.



The problem is that there aren't any TCMA people fighting full contact (besides San Shou and the very few Lei Tai events) There are no rules in any of the mma events that would prohibit a mantis fighter from competing in them..."What? Oh, we can't poke the eyes or bend the fingers????" Well, guess what, neither can they.


****, i'm even starting to sound like a broken record to myself.

and, Seven, see who you can talk to about getting use cool font that actually kicks in at [rant]

that would be cool.
:D

[tkbrewer]

I have always viewed choosing one's martial art style on the same par as choosing your dream car or dream girl. Everyone is different, but looking for similar things. I have chosen mine. (MA Style that is... and a 1963 Corvette... and -nevermind-)

I have studied no less that four styles of karate, two styles of kung-fu, high school wrestler, college boxer and as an active duty Marine I have been forced to participate in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program.

What brought me to Praying Mantis was the effiency and lethalicy of the techniques and the completeness of the system. For me it is a round peg in a round hole. As my training progresses I hope to be competeing in various venues and tournaments in the future. I have no doubt that gloves and rules will aid another systems against me, just I have no doubt that, on the street, Praying Mantis will serve me very well.

Final thought. I do not imitate a bug. The bug was simply the insparation. I do what my Shifu tells me to, I pay attention to my body and I listen to what my kung-fu brothers have to say.

Thanks,

Jeff

[EarthDragon]

Bung bo and tkbrewer,
excellent posts! I find it refreshing to hear from people that are serious in their art and in it for the right reasons.... thier own.
my hat goes off to you both.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso
stay tuned, there is a mantis specific san da ruleset that is apparently used in Poland and China. There is conversation going on about instituting it here. Hopefully it will be a main topic of next years Mantis meeting at the Great Lakes Tourney in Cleveland.

that sounds good. I look forward to seeing it.




The problem is that there aren't any TCMA people fighting full contact (besides San Shou and the very few Lei Tai events) There are no rules in any of the mma events that would prohibit a mantis fighter from competing in them..."What? Oh, we can't poke the eyes or bend the fingers????" Well, guess what, neither can they.


bingo.

and, Seven, see who you can talk to about getting use cool font that actually kicks in at [rant]

that would be cool.
:D


that's actually a pretty cool idea! I'll try to get it instituted.

[slobo]

I am new in this "forum" and I find it quite interesting to share my views with other Tanglang practitioners. Thanks Shirkers for opening an interesting topic...

Why Tanglang? I guess it is because Tanglang covers all the aspects of useful combat skills you need in order to get you out of a tricky situation.

The techniques are logical and are meant to crush the opponent in a devastating way. The rhythm is intensive and surprising and can help you when you have to fight someone for real on the streets.

I have been practising Tanglang few years on a dayly basis and the feeling I get from it is just great. More than art I would call it a science of combat where the body work is well used in order to get the best strengh for all kind of situations that you might encounter.

After that I find that Tanglang has an interesting culural heritage that you do not find in modern combat. Besides the fighting skills I believe that studying its history is also a very important part of the art. How the techniques made their evolution through its history makes you understand well its nature and how these people contributed to make Tanglang evolve on the right path.

Why I also chose tanglang and a traditional practice was also because of the weapons. This is the very martial part of the art.
How much modern fighters such as grapplers or MMA seems to be effective I think what they lack of is mastering a weapon. Their skills are more for a regulated tournament while traditional fighting arts were designed to be adapted to a realistic warfare.

How much they make publicity of their stuff it ain t martial it is just a sport combat. Submissions are for competitions but weapons kill you for real.Back in time mastering the 18 weapons were an important part of your martial instruction. And this what I focus on. This why I try to concentrate on Tanglang.

It takes a whole life to understand it and I am very happy to take that challenge in order to be satisfied. I am not interested at all in tournament since I find them artificial so Tanglang fits my lifestyle when I have to face difficult situations.

Since I knew about Tanglang I wanted to try it and now that I do practice it there is no way for me to stop.

By the way when you read about Tanglang you can conclude that it is a sort of MMA since Wang Lang was said to have "mixed" different techniques from various masters of his time.

I hope I have answered your questions "Shirkers".
Thanks for reading this...

[bung bo]

Oso, what I said about a "real master" was a little out there. It sounded like I meant some hermit-monk who is 109 and pulls boulders with his nut$ while walking on hot coals. LOL. I was thinking about MMAers that think TCMA is BS, and I think Tito is arrogant. I lumped the two together in my head.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by slobo

After that I find that Tanglang has an interesting culural heritage that you do not find in modern combat. Besides the fighting skills I believe that studying its history is also a very important part of the art. How the techniques made their evolution through its history makes you understand well its nature and how these people contributed to make Tanglang evolve on the right path.

not really... in thai and judo, we learn plenty of history. about both the style and the techniques.

Why I also chose tanglang and a traditional practice was also because of the weapons. This is the very martial part of the art.
How much modern fighters such as grapplers or MMA seems to be effective I think what they lack of is mastering a weapon. Their skills are more for a regulated tournament while traditional fighting arts were designed to be adapted to a realistic warfare.

it's not really realistic... what are the chances of you getting caught with a kwan dao or your opponent having one? there are some weapons that will translate to umbrellas and pipes and such, such as broadsword and staff, but there are alot of weapons that are impractical. even a meteor hammer or chainwhip - how many chains do you see laying on the ground and accessible? do you carry one with you at all times? Those weapons were realistic back in the day, but not so much these days...

How much they make publicity of their stuff it ain t martial it is just a sport combat. Submissions are for competitions but weapons kill you for real.

do you think submissions can't kill? put a choke on someone and don't let go... watch what happens. submissions also break bones.

Back in time mastering the 18 weapons were an important part of your martial instruction. And this what I focus on. This why I try to concentrate on Tanglang.

Are the things that were important back then just as important as they are today? Or has that changed?

It takes a whole life to understand it and I am very happy to take that challenge in order to be satisfied. I am not interested at all in tournament since I find them artificial so Tanglang fits my lifestyle when I have to face difficult situations.

what makes your training less artificial than a sport fighter's?

Since I knew about Tanglang I wanted to try it and now that I do practice it there is no way for me to stop.

good answer.

By the way when you read about Tanglang you can conclude that it is a sort of MMA since Wang Lang was said to have "mixed" different techniques from various masters of his time.

no, you can't... the term MMA applies to training a grappling style and a striking style. wang lang may have been able to fall into that category if he practiced ground grappling, but he condensed what he knew into one style, consequently, his students aren't mixed students.

[slobo]

Seven Star,

... in thai and judo, we learn plenty of history. about both the style and the techniques...

No doubt.

it's not really realistic

Well it is. Weapons like the sword weren t invented just to make you look fancy. So what you learn from it and its applications are clearly realistic. Now what you are saying is something else. You are telling me that there are few chance that you will use them. But this wasn t my point. I was just laying the difference between what is martial and what it isn t. Modern combat styles aren t because they don t cover this issue. At least few do it. But maybe I am wrong.

BTW I often carry my broad sword since I train everyday. Of course I am not saying that I am always going to take somebody s head off every time I get into a fight :D

do you think submissions can't kill? put a choke on someone and don't let go... watch what happens. submissions also break bones.

Look if you wan t to kill you don t do submissions...There are surely better ways to kill.But this is off topic. Anyway what I am concerned with is my practice of Tanglang how I can use the best of it.

what makes your training less artificial than a sport fighter's?

It is not the training that I am talking about, it is what you do with it. Gloves and tournaments are artificial. Street fighting or defending yourself isn t artificial. There is no round, no referee, no doctor and surely no ring. It is only you and your opponent, it is a matter of life and death and not about who got the medal. Tanglang wasn t made for the ring I guess. As I see it, Tanglang suits well for various situations in your everyday life and this is what makes it tasty to me. Rings are excepted situations ambushes aren t and practising Tanglang gave me the right answers when I had to take the right stand.

Thanks for reading this.

[Oso]

that's actually a pretty cool idea! I'll try to get it instituted.


sweeeeeet...it would have to be all fiery and ****ed off looking.

i guess it would have to be TrueType font

MATTEROFFACT is kind of cool

Neolith might work...

anyway, it would be funny and cool.




I was thinking about MMAers that think TCMA is BS, and I think Tito is arrogant.

I agree, Tito is very arrogant. But you know, he's won a bunch of fights...he can basically back up his arrogance.

Kinda funny talking that way about a guy that would whip my ass any day of the week.:p

The question to think about is WHY?

Why do mma'ers think that TCMA is BS?

Answer: No pudding.

;)

[SevenStar]

that's the TV tito. tito also donates to several youth charities.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by slobo

Well it is. Weapons like the sword weren t invented just to make you look fancy. So what you learn from it and its applications are clearly realistic. Now what you are saying is something else. You are telling me that there are few chance that you will use them. But this wasn t my point. I was just laying the difference between what is martial and what it isn t. Modern combat styles aren t because they don t cover this issue. At least few do it. But maybe I am wrong.

weapons are real, no doubt about that. What I was saying is how realistic is learning to use a kwan dao, for example. They are heavy, so you gain things like forearm strength, but that is not an efficient way to merely gain forearm strength. Realistic weapons training? IMO - stick, knife and gun.

BTW I often carry my broad sword since I train everyday. Of course I am not saying that I am always going to take somebody s head off every time I get into a fight :D

yeah, I used to carry mine too. It's funny watching the reactions of people to a big black dude walking around with a broadsword. :D

Look if you wan t to kill you don t do submissions...There are surely better ways to kill.But this is off topic. Anyway what I am concerned with is my practice of Tanglang how I can use the best of it.

right. you use a gun. empty handed, what you would do wouldn't be too much more efficient than what I would do...


It is not the training that I am talking about, it is what you do with it. Gloves and tournaments are artificial. Street fighting or defending yourself isn t artificial.

that's not what I was getting at. you aren't training in the street, correct? you are in your cushiony kwoon, just as I am in my cushiony ring. rounds and rules don't matter either way - Throwing you on your head hurts. Leg kicks hurt. a hook to the jaw can KO you in the street or the ring. I think too many people get caught up in the "you are training a ring sport thing" and look over such things. But, that's something to address in a different thread.

[Oso]

Seven, understood. I've heard that before. I'll rephrase: I don't like his 'stage' presence. I realize that there is a % of the UFC thing that is akin to WWF and they need the flamboyant fighters to help sell it...just don't like all the attitude.

[BeiTangLang]

K guys,.....As per "I got hammered", turn this thread around or I will lock it.

[EarthDragon]

One moment BEI..................................

See seven star!
Thats a moderator's job!
To keep the topic martial art realted
To keep everyones posts on the subject at hand.
To keep the forum alive with martial arts disscussion
To keep a professional attidtude and respect the members.

This is why Bei has done so well at keeping this board and all it' threads soley on the subject of praying mantis and does so in a courteous and respectful manor and we apluad him for it.

OK back to the topic.

I was a BB in gojyu ryu and was told of this master from taiwan comming to NY and giving a seminar on praying mantis. I never heard of this style before and wasnt really into chinese arts at the time but was insisted to go.
I showed up in my Gi like a idiot and was picked out of the crowd to be made an example of . I was asked to throw a punch. I was then touched twice and thrown on the ground. I got up and asked if he would do that again........... This time I really tried to hit him (mind you I was fighting full contact on the ISKA circut) he again touched me twice, differntly this time but with the same results I was on the ground.
I got up bowed and asked if i could be his student.
It was then he explianed shui chiao's and its effortless throws. Then he did an iron palm break and showed us some taiji fighting applications.
I was hooked and havent stop training since.

I was amazed to find all that in one style he later expalined that it is not just a style of kung fu but an entire system.
This is something that many people don't understand.
In order to have a complete system you must have the fighting the (hard side) and the internal (soft side), which includes medicine.
Most good systems have these aspects. While more than many do not.
This is what is confusing in the US only the fighting is taught or deemed important. Most of the other part is missing.

These 2 sides make up a whole. The yin yang symbol must be complete. To many people leave out parts of thier sytem which makes it incomplete not that its thier fault but possible they wern't taught, or they think its unimportant and just fighting is all they like.

This is what has happened to taiji. Thats why so many people think its for health and you must were silk PJ's and it has no fighting applications at all.This shows the ignorance of many people in this country.
I mean why else is it called grand ultimate?.

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Why train in Mantis Boxing ? After reading this thread which again seems to be turning into a school yard debate lets get back to the question . If you have never been to a Mantis school or seen first hand the art of mantis Boxing ( or felt the hand of mantis boxing ) then leave this thread because you have no knowledge of the style you are slatting . If you have never experienced it how can you ditch it ? Why train in grappling arts ? Because in your experience it gives you what you want . The same applies to us who train in Mantis style .
There is a vast gap between SPORT MARTIAL ARTS and the traditional martial arts . People should not confuse the two . We train to pass on the heritage of 400 years worth of learning . This is what is important to us . Unfortunatly there are no tournaments for Mantis mainly because it is not a tournament style , it is for real life , for all your life .

[shirkers1]

well said strike.

e dragon, I agree that a complete system such as mantis should be taught as a complete art not just the combative side. If you train properly then you need the medicinal side to help heal the conditioning. As well as internal, applying mechanics to produce power which is internal. Also the internal aspect of iron arm and body.

May I ask who the person was that turned you on to mantis?

[EarthDragon]

Yes shirker, it was Shuyn Kwan Long (James shyun)more can be found about him at www.8step.com

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
[B]One moment BEI..................................

See seven star!
Thats a moderator's job!
To keep the topic martial art realted
To keep everyones posts on the subject at hand.
To keep the forum alive with martial arts disscussion
To keep a professional attidtude and respect the members.

This is why Bei has done so well at keeping this board and all it' threads soley on the subject of praying mantis and does so in a courteous and respectful manor and we apluad him for it.



The southern forum stays on topic, and I am the mod of it as well.

the main forum is the catch all - alot of boards have a general chat forum where anything can be discussed. Maybe you haven't noticed, but KFM doesn't have that. Consequently, it's been accepted that the main forum is the general forum. If you don't like it, don't go there...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon

These 2 sides make up a whole. The yin yang symbol must be complete. To many people leave out parts of thier sytem which makes it incomplete not that its thier fault but possible they wern't taught, or they think its unimportant and just fighting is all they like.

This is what has happened to taiji. Thats why so many people think its for health and you must were silk PJ's and it has no fighting applications at all.This shows the ignorance of many people in this country.
I mean why else is it called grand ultimate?.

Is that due to the ignorance of people here, or how it was taught to them? Somewhere along the line, someone had to have only been interested in the health benefits - either that or someone wasn't shown the martial side. Either way, it then caught on like wildfire. Taiji is taught for health in many countries, not just this one...

[shirkers1]

ALTHOUGH OFF TOPIC!!!!! 7 star

taiji like mantis has more than one branch. Some schools teach the martial aspect of the art as well as the health. But publicity has giving taiji a title of health. Just like wushu has given mantis a title of flowery exagerated movements that look good but have no martial merit. The practitioners of the art and not a form collector know it's not and respect what mantis has to offer as a combat effective complete system.

A good MAist can see that it's combative, taiji and mantis that is. Just because taiji or bagua styles move slow doesn't mean it's not tactically sound for combat. Good kung fu is like a machine engine, if you get caught up in it's gears it's going to eat you alive and grind you up. Just like a good grappler manipulates once he gets a hold of someone. Start another thread if you want to argue these points and leave it at that.

mark

[Oso]

ok, on topic:

I train mantis because

A) It does something for my soul.

B) I feel that at the core, it most certainly can be effective in combat and in sport while still retaining it's mantis flavor.

I just don't think that most mantis people are training it realistically and for whatever reason, refuse to seriously test themselves.

[SevenStar]

sigh...

it's not OT, it's a branch of the discussion. In every day conversation, how linear is the dialogue?


Oso, what do you feel it does for your soul? Is it something you can explain, or is it one of those somethings that is "just there"?

[Oso]

well, for one, 'kung fu' draws me where no other major division of ma does. I like the grappling arts as well ,of course, having started HS wrestling the same year I started kung fu. I have a methodology for transferring stand up to the ground (which is surely based on what minor knowledge I have from folkstyle, jjj, judo, just a smattering of bjj and yes, more than a bit for ninjitsu)

as for mantis in particular: not sure. The particular movement feels 'best' to me, though, at least in Pong Lai, I'm one of the very few endotherms amongst a host of ectotherms...bunch of skinny bastiches...

actually, lately, I liken my attraction to mantis to the fact that I just bought a bass w/o knowing a **** thing about how to play it.

I am a bass player.

I am a mantis fighter.

sounds silly maybe and surely not all the requisite skills for either are in place but I KNOW what it is I want from both endeavors...and it's surely going to take a lot of kung fu for me to become a bass player.:p

I just want to see the art I love so much climb out of the dark ages, retain it's history and tradition, and kick some ****ing ass at the same time.

ok, time for my silly ass to go to bed.

tomorrow is http://www.brewgrassfestival.com

and after my morning workout I've got 7 hours of drinking and music listening to do.:D

[mantisben]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Why do you train/study mantis kung fu?

Well, when I was young, I used to be bullied around alot. I saw a kung-fu movie, and just KNEW Kung-Fu was the way a smaller and weaker person like myself would be able to defend myself against a larger and stronger opponent.

I was already into Gymnastics, Handball, Paddle-ball, break-dancing, and other city-folk things. I was into movement. I couldn't see myself being an effective boxer, since most of the kids who trained in Boxing were already bigger and stronger than me.

I looked in the Yellow Pages, and found a Praying Mantis School on 42nd Street and 6th Ave in NYC. I went there, without knowing a thing about Martial Arts, decided Praying Mantis was going to teach me to defend myself effectively.

And it did...

For THIS, I am grateful and loyal to both My Sifu, the Northern 7-Star Praying Mantis Style, and the Ancestors of this style.

Martial Arts training has taught me respect, patience, tolerance, self-control, and diligence. I don't think I would have learned some of these things if I simply trained with the FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT mentality, although my first motivation for combat training was self-defense.

However, the world is made up of different people. Some people are not at peace unless everyone agrees with their choice of faith, music, art, or fighting method. These kind of people are here to stay.

I may sound like a complacent pacifist, but I've learned to cope with these kind of people. You don't ruffle their pea**** feathers too rough, and their insults dissolve into nothingness.

"A Loud answer stirs up anger, but a gentle one calms it down.", or something like that...

[EarthDragon]

sevenstar,
to jump back a little to what you were saying.........It may very well be the lack or teaching or maybe the lack of knowledge from the sifu not realy knowing what he says he knows, but whatever it is this does not mean with proper knowlege and proper teaching that mantis as well as kung fu in gneral is not one of the most combative and fighting arts in this country. many people see one version of something and make an assumption about it and lump everthing its connected to together, this is what I meant by ignorance. Of course i feel bad for students that learn from unskilled sifu's or stubborn sifu's that are not ready to teach the real deal. I had to call my sifu every year for 5 years before he took me as his student. He would always say he was to busy this year, maybe next year, "you call" he would say. I was persistant ans serious and I proved that to him by calling him every year so when he finally said yes he knew I was here to stay.

[cmcgee]

Originally posted by mantisben

Martial Arts training has taught me respect, patience, tolerance, self-control, and diligence. I don't think I would have learned some of these things if I simply trained with the FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT mentality, although my first motivation for combat training was self-defense.

However, the world is made up of different people. Some people are not at peace unless everyone agrees with their choice of faith, music, art, or fighting method. These kind of people are here to stay.

I may sound like a complacent pacifist, but I've learned to cope with these kind of people. You don't ruffle their pea**** feathers too rough, and their insults dissolve into nothingness.

"A Loud answer stirs up anger, but a gentle one calms it down.", or something like that...

Amitabha Mantisben! You nailed it.

Like it or not, mantis is one of the highest forms from Shaolin. If you notice in this thread the people who study mantis are really a kind and peaceful bunch. It really is a shame when a non-mantis person comes into a forum for mantis and belittles it(especially when it's a moderator). That really speaks poorly on that person.

"The fool who knows his foolishness, is wise at least so far. But
a fool who thinks himself wise, he is called a fool indeed." -Buddha

I study to better myself. Nothing else. If your purpose in training is solely to fight, then you are living a truly dull and shaded life. If it is an adrenalin rush that you seek, then you are no different that a drug addict looking for that quick fix.

Once again, if you study a different art please be respectful to the others in this forum. That should be one of the first things you learn in MA.

[lightnin]

However the world is made up of different people.Some people are not at peace

Precisely.
People in general associate peacefulness ,calmness with weakness.
But we all now we have deep inside a silent strength through our training.
It is a typical reaction to these antics.And treat them as so.A good come back is required instead of overeacting.
Remember we are your Kungfu brothers you are not alone here.
Do not be intimidated,because of opinination.
They may be curious,and rattling the cage is one of the oldest tricks to getting information.

Be aware that this topic is a hot target for those that do not understand the descipline that you are studying.
Ever since the advent of the UFC's of our generation,there is a huge trend to getting involved in the MA's.
Some are mislead by others who want to promote" their" MA.This is nothing new.It has been going on for a long time.
Hmm.. maybe ever since kungfu movies became popular?
Yes it is true that" Hollywood magic" has put a black eye on the effectiveness of the kungfu styles in North America.
But we can change that.

By demonstrating our strengthes at the right places.
By encouraging our masters to demonstrate examples of Chi,and applicabilty of form,and what good and noble virtues come of the training.

Education and example are the key. Practice,practice,practice.
By showing others that it is a practical ,and effective.

Be seen,
By getting involved in the tournaments,of all sorts.

By educating ourselves , realizing that certain aggressive situations can be presented, how we deal with said example may vary but quite very possibly happen.

Like for example..

1/what would you do if you were accosted by one or more individuals,and you fell to the ground for one reason or another<hit from behind,trip and fall..> and the fight is continued on the ground,he is on top in the mounted position,and you are on your butt?

2/Grabbed from behind <bear hug>picked up and thrown
over his head till you land on your stomach and hands.He is on your back Immediately leading to a choke .
What are the chances on taking the fight to the ground?
Chin na comes to mind..
Do you practice your chin na or moves from a form for these situations?
It is always good to have 3 or 4 moves that you know well for self defence purposes.Later on you can add when you have more experience and knowledge.

Sometimes we see our art as a stand up fighting art,not true.It is an adaptable art.We can adapt to ground fighting we just have to have the initiative to do so.
Experiment practice with your friends.Have fun..

By realizing flaws or holes in our training,and learning will help us deal with whatever comes our way.
By asking questions,and posing situations to our Sifu's and how we could defuse those situations.

People will test you,be wary of your surroundings.
Be practiced,and prepared for those situations.
Use "tongue fu"
Sometimes a good comeback,like "hey would like to come to class? I can show you there.." is more appropriate.
To think about what you are going to say,and say it respectfully will go further than an aggresive approach.
But remember one thing,this requires some effort on your part.

These forums are open to all for a reason,and they are in entitled to an opinion.
We are free to do so,are we not?.
So why do you get flustered so easily?

I have had many a discussion about the practicality of the kungfu arts.Heck just look at the other MA forums,like "dragon list" read and know the nature of others.
Because it is going to come up again and again.

Thats it have fun ,and Practice!!
Peace ...
Lightnin...

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EarthDragon


For the people that dont think mantis is effective are speaking out of their lack of understanding.
Or they havent fought a mantis player. Our system of mantis 8 step is extremley violent.
We are taught to rip pull and tear. When it goes to the ground we do ground mantis "fighting from a fallen position" This is similar to wrestling but with joint locks as found in BJJ. To say mantis has ground fighting is about the same as saying boxing has groundfighting.

[shirkers1]

KNIFEFIGHTER, you really are clueless. Why do you post here? Honestly? You have no clue what northern mantis has in it's system. So for you to make very ignorant comments like that last one makes one wonder why you waste your time checking in on a "so called weak style like mantis forum"?

[cmcgee]

Shirk, the sad thing is that they will try to steal our tactics for their own use and think they know mantis and all aspects of it. Like I said in my last post. Those that try to jump in on the thread and belittle it are really clueless and have no morals as a true MArtist. But oh well, a fool is good company for himself. Has anybody taken you up on your offer yet? I highly doubt it.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by shirkers1
KNIFEFIGHTER, you really are clueless. Why do you post here? Honestly? You have no clue what northern mantis has in it's system. So for you to make very ignorant comments like that last one makes one wonder why you waste your time checking in on a "so called weak style like mantis forum"? Probably not as clueless as you think. However, I am willing to be disuaded...
In terms of ground fighting, how much of the last five of your training hours was spent doing ground training?

[shirkers1]

CCmcgee Knifefighter is the only one other than mantis guys to pm me saying they would like to come work out. I don't know if that's what knifefighter wants to do though because it's obviously a waste of his time. Northern mantis has nothing to offer someone who already knows everything. So we'll see what happens.

Knifefighter
Maybe 40 minutes tops training in the past 5 hours. That would probably be a stretch and that's including sparring. In the past 5 training hours, how much time have you trained striking? Doesn't matter if I trained it at all. You're comment was mantis has no groundfighting when in fact it does have dit tang. Traditional sets involving ground play. Ground fighting is fighting on the ground period. Just because it doesn't look like shooting and grinding doesn't mean it's not ground fighting. So your statement is false, don't make comments about a style you have no clue about.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by shirkers1
You're comment was mantis has no groundfighting when in fact it does have dit tang. Traditional sets involving ground play. Ground fighting is fighting on the ground period. Just because it doesn't look like shooting and grinding doesn't mean it's not ground fighting. So your statement is false, don't make comments about a style you have no clue about. My statement was not that mantis does not have any groundfighting, but that it is about as effective as boxing's groundfighting.

[shirkers1]

Well I guess that's you opinion and you can keep it.

But on the other hand I guess you'll never know though how effective mantis is. I mean the odds of you running across a northern praying mantis practitioner willing to workout with you is pretty slim right?

[EarthDragon]

knifefighter,
I 'm not sure what praying mantis you have seen but I can assure you we have an arsenal of low mantis (360 techniques I believe) we also have whats called ground hugging footwork, where you are moving and rolling around your opponent as sen in jujitsu.
Mantis is a complete system, do you really think that after all the centuires of masters as well as practioners killing one another in bare hand combat that our system would never pratice fighting from a fallen position? Come on man, dont make assumptions of something that you have no idea about, it makes you sound foolish. To make such an uneducated staement only shows you dont really know what you are talking about.

We demonstrated 8 step praying mantis in the UFC 6 & 7 with joel sutton whom I trained and he won both bouts!
Do you think he never went to the ground? or that his ground work was ineffective? He won both matches from the ground. So please dont make asinine assumptions, speak from knowledge and expericence not out your a$$

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
KNIFEFIGHTER, you really are clueless. Why do you post here? Honestly? You have no clue what northern mantis has in it's system. So for you to make very ignorant comments like that last one makes one wonder why you waste your time checking in on a "so called weak style like mantis forum"?

what he's saying is you may have some form of groundfighting, but what groundfighting you have is minimal compared to a groundfighter. Just as I wouldn't want to learn stand up striking from a bjj guy, I wouldn't wanna learn ground fighting from a mantis guy...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
CCmcgee Knifefighter is the only one other than mantis guys to pm me saying they would like to come work out.

likely because we will not be in the area... I'd love to, but I have no plans of ever bing in az.

Knifefighter
Maybe 40 minutes tops training in the past 5 hours. That would probably be a stretch and that's including sparring.

that's his point. In the past 5 hours of training a grappler has spent at least 4 hours on the ground. So, to a grappler, to say you "train groundfighting" makes no sense.


In the past 5 training hours, how much time have you trained striking?

5, actually. However, during a normal 5 hours, it would be split at 2.5 hours each.

Doesn't matter if I trained it at all. You're comment was mantis has no groundfighting when in fact it does have dit tang. Traditional sets involving ground play. Ground fighting is fighting on the ground period. Just because it doesn't look like shooting and grinding doesn't mean it's not ground fighting. So your statement is false, don't make comments about a style you have no clue about.

That's not what he's saying, I don't think. If you "have it in the system" that's fine. But, when you don't train it much, how adept are you at it? I know how to do a tornado kick, but I don't do them much. Could I pull one off in a fight or sparring match? No, because I spend little time actually training it. That's his point. The fact that you have some form of ground grappling in your system doesn't necessarily mean anything...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cmcgee
Shirk, the sad thing is that they will try to steal our tactics for their own use and think they know mantis and all aspects of it.

why would we do that?

Like I said in my last post. Those that try to jump in on the thread and belittle it are really clueless and have no morals as a true MArtist.

Nobody is really belittling anything, just offering opinions from a different perspective. compare your ground training to a grappler's and see what you find. Compare your striking to theirs and see what you find...

Has anybody taken you up on your offer yet? I highly doubt it.

Dude, this is the internet. we are all miles apart. I'll show you how that works:

Anyone who'd like to come train with me or anybody at my school, feel free to do so - you are more than welcome.

Now, I have a standing offer for anyone to come. Out of all of the people here, only two would likely come - bung bo and yushan, because they are only 3 hours away from me. However, I may be training with a student of yushan's soon that relocated to my city and is looking for a place to train - I'm looking forward to it, because I've heard a lot of good things about them.

[shirkers1]

7 star I'm sorry but I really feel like knifefighter is giving a very negative opinion of mantis in general. I may be wrong only knifefighter can answer that. But that is fine it's his opinion. But to compare mantis with boxing when it comes to ground fighting is factually wrong. Boxing has NO groundfighting. Mantis DOES have ground fighting. Bottom line yes we are a strike driven style. We like to put people on the ground painfully. We don't really want to go there when we don't have to why wrestle if I have a hold of you then you have a hold of me. If I know you're a grappler my mind is telling me I need to break, hit and move. But that doesn't mean we don't know what to do if we go to the ground either. Don't worry I already know your opinions on this.

I'll throw out the first olive branch since you guys refuse to. Yes on the ground a typical MMAist will have the upper hand on a typical northern mantis practitioner who has no background in ground fighting. But I will have to say that the typical mantis practitioner will have the upper hand on a MMAist standing. So where does that leave us? With the same **** argument. Leaving it up to the individuals involved, situations, and how the fight would play out. Since all fights usually start from the standing position and from my own experience I would give the edge to the northern mantis student. You having the idea that all fights go to the ground feel you have the advantage. Now where does that leave us? With the same **** argument again, so I see no clear-cut winner. The winner is the person who is happy with what they are doing, if they feel they need to "test" their skill against someone of another style then so be it. But the individuals involved will determine the winner of the fight. Those two individuals most certainly don't represent the rest of their given styles. Because there is always someone out there better.

As for the getting together to work out? Seven, where are you located? My teacher is on the other side of the country and I make it out there so what is the problem? I will drive anywhere that's a weekend trip in a heartbeat. I'm always in LA and I'm looking into going out to New Mexico. If you are implying that my offer is empty, then I am sorry you feel that way. I have even offered to put knifefighter up in my house or anyone else for that matter so they don't have to pay for housing. I am honestly open to having anyone come out and train with me. I feel I have something to offer and if that person is willing to come out should have something to offer in return. It's a win win situation. So why try to make it sound like I'm just saying it and don't mean it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Boxing has NO groundfighting. Mantis DOES have ground fighting.

it does HAVE it, but from what's being posted it's not actually TRAINED anywhere near as much. that's his only point. when in a ral life altercation, if you end up on the ground, you may be no better off than a boxer, as you may not be able to use what you do know, as you don't train it much.

Bottom line yes we are a strike driven style. We like to put people on the ground painfully. We don't really want to go there when we don't have to why wrestle if I have a hold of you then you have a hold of me.

I don't either, necessarily. I'd rather throw you on your head. But the point is you may not be able to avoid it.


I'll throw out the first olive branch since you guys refuse to.

I've always had one out - I'm very open to other styles. If I wasn't I would've left when I stopped training TMA.

Yes on the ground a typical MMAist will have the upper hand on a typical northern mantis practitioner who has no background in ground fighting. But I will have to say that the typical mantis practitioner will have the upper hand on a MMAist standing.

not necessarily - that would depend on the MMAist. Take me, for example. All of my experience is standup. I've only been grappling for a few years. When you get to pro level, guys like cro cop, lidell and silva are all primarily strikers.


So where does that leave us? With the same **** argument. Leaving it up to the individuals involved, situations, and how the fight would play out.

Nah, I don't believe it's up to the individual. I believe it's up to their training methods.


Since all fights usually start from the standing position and from my own experience I would give the edge to the northern mantis student. You having the idea that all fights go to the ground feel you have the advantage.

bad assumption. I don't think all fights go to the ground. My only point there is that you may not be able to avoid going there.

But the individuals involved will determine the winner of the fight. Those two individuals most certainly don't represent the rest of their given styles. Because there is always someone out there better.

In a limited sense, they do. thai boxing gyms on avg train pretty much the same way, from what I can tell. Same with many other sport styles. The same may or may not hold true for TMA, but from what I'm seeing on kfm and other forums, it does.

As for the getting together to work out? Seven, where are you located?

TN.

If you are implying that my offer is empty, then I am sorry you feel that way. I have even offered to put knifefighter up in my house or anyone else for that matter so they don't have to pay for housing. I am honestly open to having anyone come out and train with me. I feel I have something to offer and if that person is willing to come out should have something to offer in return. It's a win win situation. So why try to make it sound like I'm just saying it and don't mean it?

I'm not saying it's empty. I'm saying most people aren't gonna travel any extreme distance for that. I've met several people on this board that are in chicago (and one from cali, but he was in chi at the time), but I am in the area several times a year, so that was no problem. Other than that, I wouldn't just travel to see most people on this forum. I fully believe that you have good intentions and would love to work out with anyone, but how many people would likely take the offer?

[EarthDragon]

In my experience and the years Ive been doing this I have found that most fights are fought with untrained people.
Im a big guy, 6'2 and 232 and bounced and done security for many years and have seen, been in , and broken up hundreds of fights and I would say 99% were alcohol induced and by untrained fighters.
When you see a trained fighter stand you can tell just in the way they carry themselves.
Most trained fighters with expericnece do not fight at the drop of a hat. They take more pride in thier skill.

I always warn people before I fight them and I have never struck first. I always tell them to walk away and wait till they try to strike before I attack.

If and when 2 fighters that are skilled are going to fight they usually can tell and it dissolves. Not always but usually. Therefore its really hard to test stand up to ground with 2 skilled fighters unless its in a controlled enviornement.

I tell my students the same thing about knives.
If someone is not skilled in knifefighting they will flash and wave the blade in an attmept to scare and intimidate you.This is your chance to run or back down, fo they dont really want to stab you.
if they are skilled you will never see the blade, only after you have been stabbed will you know they have one.

[shirkers1]

I give up. With you guys something that is clearly the color green is black to you and I'm sick of trying to point out the obvious. It's been fun guys.

E dragon great points, I see what you're saying and I agree 100% That is why I don't go to bars any more or if I do I leave before the beer muscles come out..... These drunk idiots (usually in packs of 5) see a skinny white boy and think that they can run their mouths or try to intimidate the smaller guy. 9 times out of 10 they are the one's that get peeled because they wouldn't let it go or were "over confident".

later

[isol8d]

Because I enjoy it. I have a good time, not always during class, but almost always after class, when I've got a good workout buzz going.

And I stick to it. I've lifted weights and run on and off over the years, but I can't say I really enjoy doing either.

I will never be a serious MMA in the ring, I've got kids and a life that prevents studying martial arts for anything other then a personal enrichment. I can hold my own in a fight if it came to it, but I try my ****dest to take myself out of these situations at this stage in my life.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
In my experience and the years Ive been doing this I have found that most fights are fought with untrained people.
Im a big guy, 6'2 and 232 and bounced and done security for many years and have seen, been in , and broken up hundreds of fights and I would say 99% were alcohol induced and by untrained fighters.{/b]

I completely agree with that. I'm not gonna just assume that everyone I run into will be untrained because of that though.

[b]Most trained fighters with expericnece do not fight at the drop of a hat. They take more pride in thier skill.

that one I don't agree with as much...a lot of the wrestlers I knew fought at any given opportunity.


I tell my students the same thing about knives.
If someone is not skilled in knifefighting they will flash and wave the blade in an attmept to scare and intimidate you.This is your chance to run or back down, fo they dont really want to stab you.
if they are skilled you will never see the blade, only after you have been stabbed will you know they have one.

I agree with that to an extent. If you do see the blade and they have a heaven grip on it flashing it, yeah he's inexperienced. If you see the blade and he's got an earth grip, I'd be extremely weary.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
We demonstrated 8 step praying mantis in the UFC 6 & 7 with joel sutton whom I trained and he won both bouts!
Do you think he never went to the ground? or that his ground work was ineffective? He won both matches from the ground. So please dont make asinine assumptions, speak from knowledge and expericence not out your a$$ Interesting you should bring up Sutton's fight, since I just watched the old UFC 7 and saw his fight.

1- Yes, his groundwork showed that he didn't really know what he was doing there.

2- He won on ref stoppage because his opponent was bleeding heavily from a headbutt that occurred while they were standing.

3- When the fight ended, Sutton was mounted by his opponent.

[Knifefighter]

Shirkers:
Here's a request for you. Get a copy of UFC 7. Watch Joel Sutton's fight. He was trained by a "recognized expert" of PM, so it would be safe to assume that that is how a mantis practioner fights, right? Watch the fight and see what your impression is of a mantis fighter trying to use his stuff for real against a resisting opponent.

[shirkers1]

I stopped watching those after the 3rd one when I decided that the rules of UFC were geared around the fighting style of the creator. So I could give two ****s about sport fighting. First off I take Northern praying mantis, he was an 8 step praying mantis fighter. Right away completely different styles. I'm not going to judge what I do against what he does. But from what you explain the fight was stopped because of an injury aquired while standing? Hmmm.

I judge from my own "fighting" experience in the street. As well as my personal experience with sparring with grapplers. That's all I can speak for, I'm not going to say ground fighting doesn't have it's uses. Just like you shouldn't say that striking in mantis doesn't have it's uses or make assumptions that mantis isn't combative. For one you don't have anything to guage what me and my style have to offer. You can only assume. Have you personally faught a northern mantis practitioner? In the ring or out of the ring? If you lost would your mind be changed or would you say it fell down to circumstances of the fight?

I'm not going to try to convince you of anything, so you should probably stop trying as well. Because my mind isn't going to change, and I doubt yours is either. Keep up your training and be happy with that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
I stopped watching those after the 3rd one when I decided that the rules of UFC were geared around the fighting style of the creator. So I could give two ****s about sport fighting. First off I take Northern praying mantis, he was an 8 step praying mantis fighter. Right away completely different styles. I'm not going to judge what I do against what he does. But from what you explain the fight was stopped because of an injury aquired while standing? Hmmm.

the injury was an accidental headbutt - the two fighters collided and he got cut.

[shirkers1]

7* and your point is? Come on you're not saying that because it was accidental it doesn't count as a win are you?

Oh I thought everything in a fight was intentional and nothing accidental ever happens. <---- sarcasm That is why a majority of street fights end up on the ground. Accidental slippage, the guy didn't know how to defend, etc. Not because he was a master grappler and wanted the fight to go to the ground.

That's why I say circumstances in a fight. The better fighter doesn't always win. He didn't bring his A game, caught with suprise shot, etc.

That's no excuse bro, he suffered a fight ending blow. Whether he did it to himself or whatever the situation was, he still lost.

**** it!!! see I got sucked in again. This is all off topic.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
7* and your point is? Come on you're not saying that because it was accidental it doesn't count as a win are you?

not at all. What I'm saying is that he didn't win off of his skill. so talking about his ufc win isn't really saying much. He would've lost had it not been for the cut, which he did not intentionally produce. Since it did happen though, he got the win. kudos to him.

Oh I thought everything in a fight was intentional and nothing accidental ever happens. <---- sarcasm That is why a majority of street fights end up on the ground. Accidental slippage, the guy didn't know how to defend, etc. Not because he was a master grappler and wanted the fight to go to the ground.

true. but we're not arguing the superiority of the avg joe in the ufc. ED is talking about the skill of sutton. But, it wasn't sutton's skill that won him the match.

That's no excuse bro, he suffered a fight ending blow. Whether he did it to himself or whatever the situation was, he still lost.

he sure did. crap happens. but that's not what ED is saying.

**** it!!! see I got sucked in again. This is all off topic.

dude...it's discussion. That happens.

[EarthDragon]

sevenstar, you said to my comment

that one I don't agree with as much...a lot of the wrestlers I knew fought at any given opportunity.

Granted there are those who need to show off, test thier skill or see how they measure up to another. But when you have done that and you have matured and are confident in your skill then theres no reason, for confidence will make you react differently. and you wont have to fight for any "given opportunity".

I broke some guys elbow outside a night club while I was trying to throw him out. I felt extremly bad for it for years as I later found out he was trying to defend his girlfriend from her crazed women beater ex- boyfriend. But all I saw was this guy swinging. But when you realize that you can really hurt someone it makes you think twice about it.

If 2 unskilled fighter's fight its almost funny to watch the haymakers and missed opportunites but we are martial artists, taught and trained to break mame, dislocate our opponents joints.
Is that not what you think about before you engage in fighting?
or are you thinking how you can cripple someone?

knifefighter,
the fact still reamins he won! in sports.. if they run out of time and one team is ahead they still win! the other team may have played better but that doesnt matter does it?

actually the other guy was twice as big as him also, the other guy was like 6'6 2630 or something crazy like that cant remeber uz its been a long time. Did you watch 6? joel fought and won in that one too. better fight in my opionon. but watch it and tell me what you think

[Knifefighter]

I'll see if I can dig up UFC 6.

In the meantime, let's see if we can turn this into a somewhat productive discourse. You have said yourself that Sutton didn't perform well in the UFC 7 fight because of nerves, the crowd, etc. How about giving a critique comparing and contrasting what he did, both standing and on the ground, with what he should have done as a mantis practitioner.

[BeiTangLang]

I tried to let the discussion go on....
& on...
& on....
But there has to be an end & this is it.