What do you get out of sparring

[Jeff Bussey]

To be honest,
The only thing I can see that you get out of sparring over chi sau is you build up your stamina. Is that what all of these debates are over? I use to spar alot, and that was to train for comp's. There's absolutely nothing you can do in any of your clubs that will prepare you for some thought up altercation that you're waiting to happen.
Anyone who's been in an actual fight knows that it happens quick and is usually over quick, 30 seconds to a minute. None of these challenges and stand off BS happens

-Beer bottle to the face, followed by (fill in blank)
-Sucker punched, followed by (fill in blank)
-Swarmed by a group
-blah blah blah

Tell me how your sparring is going to help you then more than chi sau?

J

[IRONMONK]

sparring gives you confidence which you will need in streetfight.Its also a good way to see if ur techinques work under pressure and against resistance!!!

ideally you want to be aware and avoid trouble but if you have no choice preempt ur strike but if the person resists or ur opponent has some kind of skill ur sparring experience and stamina will be important.

Those situations are sh*t situations and there is not much u can do against them but only to be aware.But it doesnt mean you shouldnt train(spar) because of these kind of things .Do you think chi sao alone would help you in those situations?also ur opponent will not offer their hands in a poon sao position for u to roll with them!!!

[black and blue]

And the sparring should be hard and padded up. Not the point scoring, bouncing up and down sparring you see in some Karate and TKD schools. Expect some pain (:D ) it's a requried element.

[Ish]

Sparing can be more effective for working of entering skills and distancing.

The extra adrenaline u get when u know theres a good chance of taking a hit is also well worth experiencing.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys,
I've got to say that I get those things from chi sau and other drills (not sparring).

IRONMONK
I don't need someone's hands in poon sau to do a technique, chi sau also shows you to hit someone when there hands aren't there. As for confidence, if I'm having a shouting match with someone and it's going to lead to a fight, then maybe, but I won't be having a shouting match and if I ever get into a fight it will be because I'm attacked, and I will do whatever comes natural at the time

BLACK AND BLUE
I like playing rough so as far as pain goes I get it dished out to me (from shins up). :D
BTW, we train with and without pads.

I agree stamina is important, but other than that, what else do you get. Maybe I shouldn't have just singled out chi sau and sparring vs no sparring.

J

[Jeff Bussey]

I hope this turns into a good thread. Unfortunatly my day is going to be pretty busy at work but I will check in when I can.

J

[Jeff Bussey]

Sorry IRONMONK,
I didn't answer one of your questions.

Do you think chi sao alone would help you in those situations?
Not anymore than sparring would.
:)

J

[SevenStar]

I agree with what iron monk said. In addition, sparring teaches you to deal with contact...When adrenaline rushes and heart rate elvevates, techniques that are not ingrained go out the window. sparring helps you to keep your cool. It also conditions you to deal with the strike itself should you get hit. spin around 30 times, real fast. see how the world is spinning? thats what it feels like when you take a good shot on the jaw. Now, try to strike... awkward, huh? you learn to roll with punches and minimize impact...there are numerous benefits.

what kind of "comps" were you training for? If they were point sparring tournies, then I understand why you feel this way...

[black and blue]

I agree with SevenStar, it adds another dynamic.

Chi Sau is a great tool for WC, but it has rules and set circumstances: You start already bridged; opening movements will come from Tan, Bong or Fook; body is, more often than not, kept front and centerline facing.

There are rules in sparring too (it isn't, of course, a real fight - the aim isn't to spit in our opponent's face and, if you take them down, stamp on their nuts or their face) but it offers elements Chi Sau can't because of Chi Sau's limitations.

I guess I feel all martial arts, if they are truly going to give you something bordering on preparation for a real encounter, should have forms, bag work, partner drills, sensitivity drills and sparring.

Having all of the above but missing out sparring means you are one part of the puzzle shy. When I was studying WC (now I'm a XingYi nut) we also incorporated aggression training, milling, awareness training (verbal indicators of pending violence etc) and so on and so forth.

It all helps, IMO.

[Mr Punch]

Sparring gives you practise in

1) Making and breaking contact. Sometimes it's necessary to break contact if you can't finish someone immediately with your first wave of attack, and let's be honest, most people can't.

2) Fighting against people who don't use sticking energy. Rarely do you find someone 'in the street' or 'in the ring' who will fight with sticking energy. If only one of you is fighting with sticking energy the dynamics are completely different.

3) Getting hit hard. Regardless of how hard people go in chi sao, I don't believe most people get hit as hard as in sparring. Why? Even with padding, most people hold back. And also, regardless of wing chun supposedly being concerned with short energy, as we are all in some ways learners (and probably also because most of you... er us :p :D... suck) our short range power is usually sadly lacking, resulting in patty cakes, push-punches and girly shoves or slaps.

4) Taking different shots. Related to the above, we are too used to taking only wing chun strikes. Wing chun strikes are supposed to be unafffected by body armour as they are penetrative, so if this is true, either we can't practise 'real' wing chun hits, therefore again we are only using weak shots, or there is no point to armour, in which case we are pulling shots... OR we are not ever practising full powe hits on a living moving target. So we need to practise against other kinds of hit. A boxer will floor most people or deliver a different kind of penetrative punch to most wing chunners, as will a thai kicker etc. If we don't get hit with our own shots, we need to get hit somehow!

5) Fighting people from different styles. If you don't think this is important I think you're kidding yourself. Plus it's fun!!! :D And other styles don't do chi sao.

6) Feints and changes of angle, and engagement distance. Wing chun doesn't use feints, and a good chunner shouldn't be chasing hands so shouldn't fall for feints. But a good feint will mess most of us up unless we practise against them! Some poeple are also very fast at changing angle mid-strike: esp dirty bar fighters, and coming in with a double hit (that old WC staple), and some people can put you out from a longer distance than chi sao will allow you to practise.

[IRONMONK]

Mat , black&blue,sevenstar and ish have made some good points regarding sparring

yes i agree that wing chun should be trained via a COMBINATION OF full contact sparring ,progressive resistance ,drills ,chi sao and forms wall bag training etc

that is what we can do(plus environmental and awareness training) to prepare ourselves for the street.

if i got sucker punched i would rather be a person who has done some full contact sparring then someone without because i might be able to take the punch and continue fighting.

[Vajramusti]

Folks are gonna do what they are gonna do- and people generally repeat their POVs ( including me).
So FWIW, IMO from one wing chun POV.

1. Folks who talk about the limiations of chi sao- often do not know all the possibilities of chi sao. You can take chi sao to all sorts of levels and develop more and more skills- and yes -against resisting opponents and yes not always being in contact-
it can be pretty close to serious fighting without serious mayhem on the other side of the law.

Rather not open up inter lineage issue on what chi sao is about.
Lots of misconcemtions on chi sao- even about what sticking is about.

2. I have done lots of sparring in my time. Good chi sao (not what I mostly see) is much more of a skill builder. And good sustained chi sao also teaches how to remain focussed under fire, remain clear headed, eye control under fire, footwork, yada, yada

Back to the usual mma chit chat programming.

Like JR sez- gotta run!

3. Chi sao takes you where gloves cannot go.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Folks who talk about the limitations of chi sao- often do not know all the possibilities of chi sao. "

Read the above sentence carefully. It implies that there are NO LIMITS to what chi sao can teach you - if only you knew all the possibilities inherent in chi sao.

The fact is...no matter how much chi sao you know - and how skilled you are in it - there are definitely limits to what chi sao can teach you about fighting.

It has it's limits.


"I have done lots of sparring in my time. Good chi sao (not what I mostly see) is much more of a skill builder."

Chi sao builds certain skills...and sparring builds another set of very important skills. Sometimes those skill sets overlap (ie.- at close standup contact range)...and at other times there is no overlap (ie. - longer range footwork and closing the distance skills...striking and kicking from a longer distance, etc.) Not to mention the big difference in adrenaline rush when the sparring entails full contact strikes, kicks, takedowns, groundfighting, etc.

Again...chi sao - even rough chi sao - definitely has it's limitations.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
To be honest,
The only thing I can see that you get out of sparring over chi sau is you build up your stamina.....Tell me how your sparring is going to help you then more than chi sau?


IMO, sparring doesn't help you more than chi sau, especially in technical skill building. It helps you in a different way (and more than just stamina development).

For the person who doesn't get into real fights much, it helps overall skill development a lot.

The main difference between chi sau and sparring is the environment for skill development. In chi sau you are working off of someone who is pretty much doing the same things you are. That is, working WC technique against WC technique. If you are sparring and both trying to employ WC technique, it can be argued that your just doing a more intense version of chi sau. But if you are working other types of fight strategy in, that's more like real sparring, and it becomes a whole other game. In chi sau you know, by the fact that it's what YOU'RE doing, what your partner is going to try, in sparring you can't (or shouldn't) be as aware of what they might do.

To sum it up, I would say that chi sau helps technical skill development and sparring help fighting ability development. To say that chi sau directly improves fight ability or that sparring directly improves technical skill, would be incorrect IMO.

[Ernie]

Jeff,
Think of it this way some people get taught the shell of chi sau , shapes positions , how to roll and hit and block
But never really develop the essence of chi sau there understanding stays on the surface , so beyond the mechanical actions they don’t get much else

And they will never really be able to apply or develop real skill even with many years of chi sau , they just don’t get it


Sparring is the same way you might get in front of people and move around and hit them and get hit with this punch or that kick but that’s all you get out of it

Especially karate types not real skill just car crashing

So if the chi sau guy steps to you and say , yea I did chi sau for a few years and it’s nothing more then trapping hands , no real need for it , you would be like dude hold on there are so many levels , that’s not even skimming the surface

Well it goes both ways if you have never really ‘’ got ‘’ what sparring is about and all the levels


So to ask what is the need for sparring is just like asking what is the need for chi sau

[kj]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
The main difference between chi sau and sparring is the environment for skill development. In chi sau you are working off of someone who is pretty much doing the same things you are. That is, working WC technique against WC technique. If you are sparring and both trying to employ WC technique, it can be argued that your just doing a more intense version of chi sau. But if you are working other types of fight strategy in, that's more like real sparring, and it becomes a whole other game. In chi sau you know, by the fact that it's what YOU'RE doing, what your partner is going to try, in sparring you can't (or shouldn't) be as aware of what they might do.

Nice delineation.

Regards,
- kj

[YongChun]

Sparring teaches about distance, timing, reading the attack with visual clues as opposed to tactile clues. Distance fighting can involve hit and run tactics, which are not a part of normal chi sau although it can be. If someone is swinging a bat at you or an Escrima stick or trying to cut you with a knife then you develop a certain set of distancing, timing and entry skills and pick up on a lot of clues that are different from Chi sau training.

But Chi sau means different things to different people. For some it is just sensitivity training while for others it is a real fight just as much as some people consider BJJ mat wrestling a real fight. In one lineage I trained at, chi sau was everything including distance. That means we started from chi sau, then started from an inch distance, then 6 inches, then a foot, then three feet. The idea was to not throw away all the skills developed in contact chi sau but to change only what needed changing when dealing with distance. So everything was looked at like a continuous spectrum from distance, to chi sau to ground grappling. It was a continuous thing.

Distance fighting taught one how to make the contact. If you are faced with a Capoeira fighter who spends most of his life upside down, then making contact is not easy. Making contact with a hit and run fighter is also not easy. There are all kinds of funny fighters. Making contact with a football tackle is easy on the other hand, because he does it for you. But another set of problems arises with that. With protection on, you might do a simple leg life and block your training partner's roundhouse kick and feel fine. But without the protection you might not like the pain and instead develop better timing, better positioning and better footwork skills to avoid that pain. So padded training isn't always the best but I understand the old argument that Thais and Boxers do it and they are good.

I have seen lots of cases where people go from good Chi sau to being absolutely helpless in the distanced case. It only means they haven't practiced sparring. For a real fight these people would have to manage to get the guy to play their game. In the stories where chi sau guys have won in real fights, it’s because the opponent started in chi sau range or the chi sau guy just used his wits was careful and found a time to close. In a general ring fight they would lose because closing without getting hit is the big problem.

In Chi sau everyone has a chance including a small lady against a much heavier guy. In all out sparring a small lady doesn't have much chance against a 250-pound guy and neither do a lot of small guys unless they are incredibly fast. I tried sparring against a SanDa champion who had 10 years of SanDa. But I outweighed him by 30 or 40 pounds and had longer reach and so he couldn't do much of anything. If he kicked, I just crashed into his kicks with my kicks. His handwork was nothing compared to Wing Chun handwork. He was stiff and tense (relatively speaking) which might be ok if he outweighed me but he didn't. So it was easy to push him, pull him, jerk him and do all kinds of stuff to him. However when he sparred with an equal size opponent he looked very good, could hit well, could throw, sweep, kick hard and do all the good stuff.

So in a way his training may have been dry land training as well in that he didn't apply it against the heavyweights. Perhaps it can be made to work but perhaps not.

To me sparring against equal opponents doesn't do that much. But sparring against a heavyweight relative to your size teaches you something because you can't afford to take one of their hits. With equal opponents maybe you can go all out 100% whacking the hell out of each other but try that against a guy 40 pounds heavier who is more skillful than you and you will have some major health problems happening. If he fights you at 50% then it's not the same as fighting a heavier guy at all.

In martial arts you should assume the guy is faster, stronger and heavier than you. If you can hit someone like that then you have a real martial art, you have real skill.

I wonder if boxers and Thai boxers can handle people who outweigh them by more than 40 pounds any better than martial artists can. It seems the whole premise of martial art is that it is possible for a smaller individual to defeat a larger one. If the large one can’t fight or has less skill then of course it’s easy.

In my opinion, chi sau teaches you what to do when contact has been made. Sparring teaches you how to make the contact. Some people have developed training procedures that almost seamlessly go from one environment into the other.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys

Just finished prepping some blood (HIV) to work with in the lab so I only have a couple of minutes.

BTW, I like all the responses. No one attacked me :p
Yet :eek:

I never said that I'm against sparring. I actually like it. I'm just saying that you can't say that sparring is the shiznit over anything else.

I guess I thought most of you were saying that if you don't spar all the time you won't be able to defend yourself as well as you could, but after reading most of the posts here, I stand corrected.

I've really found that you get all the distance, timing, pressure, pain, footwork etc from chi sau along with sensitivity, redirecting, intent, focus, clear mind, relaxation etc, that sparring doesn't neccessarily give you that much more compared to the time you have to invest into it. It's most probably true that I never fully explored sparring to the extent that some of you guys have but then again, I'm not finished exploring my chi sau so who knows.

J

[brody]

Quick questions...

If you are "sparring" in your club, are you actually sparring against someone who knows another martial art and doesn't use Wing Chun? Or are you just really working on bridging which then becomes the vehicle for what you learn through Chi Sao? I guess a definition of Sparring would help.

In my club our sparring is more of a free flow chi sao rather than the roll and trap and counter the trap, etc.

[YongChun]

Sparring is the process of exchanges that take place when you try to close the distance between your partner so that you can neutralize your partner by hitting, kicking, throwing, locking or submission while not getting the same thing done back to you.

Over time the ratio of hits issued with hits landed should increase unless your partner improves at the same rate as you in which case it might remain a constant making you feel that no progress is being made.

We do Wing Chun vs Wing Chun but also anything against Wing Chun. The more things your partner knows, the more anythings he can throw into the mix.

Pretending to be a Taekwondo guy is not the same as fighting a real Taekwondo guy as everyone of course knows. But if you don't have those kinds of guys around, you just pretend.

Ray

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey guys and gals,

black and blue

Having all of the above but missing out sparring means you are one part of the puzzle shy
I'm trying to figure out which part that is. Maybe I'll only find out through sparring not sure but I don't see things like overcoming fears and dealing with adrenaline rushes are part of sparring. There's always a safety factor involved, if not, then it's not sparring

Mat

1) Making and breaking contact. Sometimes it's necessary to break contact if you can't finish someone immediately with your first wave of attack, and let's be honest, most people can't.
You make and break contact in chi sau which is when your mah san jong (sp?) kicks in
Ya I agree, there's only one wave of attack and that's constantly ;)

IRONMONK

if i got sucker punched i would rather be a person who has done some full contact sparring then someone without because i might be able to take the punch and continue fighting.
Maybe, but boxers and MMA's get knocked out. If it's a real sucker punch, not much you can do to prep for that especially if you spar with head gear, mouth piece, chest pads, jock strap, shin guards...
You know what I'm saying.

AmanuJRY

IMO, sparring doesn't help you more than chi sau, especially in technical skill building. It helps you in a different way
I agree, it's a different way. I just think chi sau gets kinda short changed you know? When you start wing chun you wanna chi sau so bad cause you see your older brothers doing it and how much fun it looks.
I don't know, it just seems to me that the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know.

:confused: :rolleyes: :) :D :cool:


J

[old jong]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if i got sucker punched i would rather be a person who has done some full contact sparring then someone without because i might be able to take the punch and continue fighting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Really!...Getting hit repeatly on the head,even with a helmet,will not get you tougher. It will just get you dumber and dumber as times goes by.One of my friends job is to make these electro brain tests and some of her regular "custommers" are the Quebec semi-pro and pro boxers. She told me that all of them show some brain damages.Most are just on the limit so they can keep their boxing licence. Everytimes,a guy's brain is rattled,there is some irreversible damage,even if there is no "official" KO.
BTW,she scans the local MMA guys too and the toll is starting to show it's face,as better strikers are showing up on the scene,with their smaller gloves.
So,keep on the good training...

BTW,nobody is forced to believe this...It's your brain after all!...;)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
I agree, it's a different way. I just think chi sau gets kinda short changed you know? When you start wing chun you wanna chi sau so bad cause you see your older brothers doing it and how much fun it looks.
I don't know, it just seems to me that the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know.

Jeff,

IMO, chi sau is quite fun, and from the way some people's opinion is read/interpeted it can seem like it gets short changed. It is indespensable for developing good WC technical skills, and is a huge aspect of WC training. The problem, or source of most disagreements, comes from whether or not it develops fighting ability.

[anerlich]

I'm just saying that you can't say that sparring is the shiznit over anything else.

You're right. But the same could be said for chi sao, forms, bagwork, dummy, everything.

Chi sao (depending on your definition) develops structure, skills and attributes at trapping range. I contend it is close to completely useless for developing skills at entry and defense from outside contact range, or dealing with someone who gets past your "iron bridges" :eek: into a tight clinch.

Some forms of technique isolation (at least while learning) and working against progressive resistance must also be included along with completely random training such as sparring.

Good training is about balance and variety, not trying to make one tool do every job.

[PaulH]

I agree with Hendrik. If one looks at chisau as developing awareness skill tool, then sparring is just another form of awareness training. So why do we keep on talking about this? =)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Sparring develops grace under pressure, the more pressure you get, the more graceful you become, working all of the right essential components, dealing with concept, principles and energies. Sparring should make you a smarter fighter. It’s for putting all of your theorys that you learned in and about your system too life, too make it real for yourself. With sparring you should be learning something just has a pro boxer does, they spar too keep up with the game, too fix what is weak too their opponent, and too develop concepts too keep up or beat their opponent. Hence becoming a smarter fighter.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Edmund]

Originally posted by PaulH
I agree with Hendrik. If one looks at chisau as developing awareness skill tool, then sparring is just another form of awareness training. So why do we keep on talking about this? =)

Because it seems like a lot of people don't know what it is! :)

[Simon]

simple test:

spar someone of a similar level from another style who does not like to stick, preferably likes a different range to you.

If you have a problem dealing with distance, timing, hard hits etc then you need to address this - maybe sparring or related drills to build these skills.

[black and blue]

"I'm just saying that you can't say that sparring is the shiznit over anything else."



I don't think anyone was saying that. It's just a part of the puzzle. Not better than Chi Sau, just equally valid and offering different elements and factors.

I currently spar with XingYi training partners and also from someone who studied WSL WCK, and a few people who are very skilled and were once part of the LT WCK system. I don't jump up and down and bounce around Karate style. I move and start hitting whilst keeping good (I hope) XingYi body positioning.

There is adrenaline and as some of the guys are very useful and outweigh me, fear does kick in when I'm on the receiving end and not doing well. We all get hurt, but not badly so. Bruised, sore, a few whacks to the face that shake you a bit (we're are all padded up and wear gum shields).


Joy,

I know from you past posts that you feel your Chi Sau offers what sparring offers. I have seen on Augustine Fong's tapes some kinda light sparring etc and perhaps that's what you're talking about. It was nice, and very controlled, but not like full out sparring.

Would it be possible for you to post up some video footage on your website - perhaps of yourself and some senior students working Chi Sau in a way that offers the benefits of Sparring. Will be easier to judge what your saying, as I think you're implying what you do is different to what most lineages/clubs etc show when doing Chi Sau.

Cheers

[Vajramusti]

B & B sez- responses in brackets-

Joy,

I know from you past posts that you feel your Chi Sau offers what sparring offers.

((Actually much more. Done lots of both- ergo not speaking abstractly. Having done both- if needed... I havea sense of using wing chun with gloves. If I were starting a boxing club- could teach youngsters some things from wing chun.

I actually a year ago investigated buying a spot to train boxers as well as wing chun folks. Capital and prospective overhead costs were massive and prohibitive. Plus in real boxing development programs there is an eventual dirty and repulsive side of human use of human beings.Politics even in amateur boxing- Olympics selection, coaching and training.

Apart from sparring I have watched lots of first class world class sparring.BTW aweek from tomorrow I have a ticket for the Kostya Tszyu- Sharmba Mitchell fight right here in river city( metro Phoenix).Kostya is training here now. Many boxers are superb human beings- but serious boxing or striking arts reacha point of no return relatively early as far as loss of some brain cells are concerned- as Old Jong pointed out ina different post. In a few years Kostya will be history just as Chavez was before him.Of course some skills remain into later years but the cutting edge against younger top flight people erodes fast--- Joe Louis/Marciano, Ali/Holmes. Robinson/Pender.

But chi sao skills can do everything that what is commonly called sparring can and much more. Chi sao teaches so many more lines and angles of attack and combinations and reactions under pressure and use of the other persons pressure.)))

I have seen on Augustine Fong's tapes some kinda light sparring etc and perhaps that's what you're talking about. It was nice, and very controlled, but not like full out sparring.

((Master Fong speaks for himself. We all respect him...but.. His students including me are on their own- no cookie cutter production here partly because of the importance of top flight chi sao development. The good ones develop unique skills via chi sao. None of us verbally put down other wing chun lineages. Most are not on the web.If you saw Danny Chan, Nancy Macdonald, Brian Tufts, Daum, and others in various kinds of testing venues you would know. People do test themselves without jabbering on KFO. Everyone is encouraged to see what other styles have to offer. Brian has done bjj -has a machado belt. Nancy has done major Chinese sword work. Danny is in a class by himself on knowledge, ability and experience.There is no franchise or chain store system. I did not learn from tapes. The tapes give you just some ideas about Master Fong's approach.

To understanf full scale chi sao-the best way is to come a week long annual seminar in Tucson- towards the end of every April and the beginning of every May. That is the best way to understand what I am saying. Films dont do justice. Wing chun is more tactile, hands on rather than visual.

Chi sao skills can be adapted for many kinds of functions- for some you can try it with gloves. First rate pak sao can improve your spiking in volleyball- Danny's spiking is something to behold.
Manny is suberb with nunchucks. My nephew went on to become a high school wrestling champion in Oklahoma with his early hand skills devloped from early exposure to wing chun. Held the fastest HS pinning time for a long time.

A student of mine became a combat shooting champion with wing chun structure and positioning, I an NOT into guns btw.They scare me.,,,because of the culture they breed. Nuff rambling- cheers- Joy PS- You are not doing wing chun- good luck with what you are doing. I am puzzled and amused at some of your criticisms of wing chun- given you dont do wing chun, you had limited exposre to the art and limited survey research. KFO's chi chat forum is hardly the wing chun world.))))

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Joy said:

(Master Fong speaks for himself. We all respect him...but.. His students including me are on their own- no cookie cutter production here partly because of the importance of top flight chi sao development. The good ones develop unique skills via chi sao.

Master Fong is the best for real. If only you guys realy knew.
oh well, who I'm I too say so? the man can fight for real, I mean can realy throw down.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

He is even too good for me to describe. The thing important is that he got his skill by practicing Wing Chun and thinking Wing Chun.Not by trying to fill his "holes" with "something else" (1). This is the lesson everybody in his lineage learn and will learn again.You find your own Wing Chun by being yourself,not by copying somebody else. A real teacher doesn't ask his pupils to be carbon copies.He wants you to reach your best level but with your own personality and colors. This is why nobody speaks for Fong and he himself will never try to control anybody else.

(1) Wich doesn't mean it is wrong to learn other arts for personal reasons. (other than to fill holes! ;) )

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Old Joung is old school, tell it like it is. My man! Stone Killer Jong
! Ill put may home on Fong's fighting skills!!!!!!! Can't touch that!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Ha! Ali!
I feel you are thinking a lot like I do. Being "old school" doesn't mean being blind to other's talent and to what they can bring to us. A good "Sifu" doesn't need slaves or devots. He simply teach without holding back anything to all who want to learn sincerely. ;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Why sho ya right! the very short time that I spent with him, blew my mind, and it's still knocked out the frame.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

TOO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, I WOULD RUN FROM FONG.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
TOO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, I WOULD RUN FROM FONG.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

He is also a very friendly and humble person.His only desire is to share with his students. This is why he doesn't care for big organisations or business franchises and all the politics that go with these things. He's just a nice guy who enjoy Wing Chun,a good laugh and people. Here! (http://www.montrealwingchun.com/gen-michel-patrick-fong.jpg) (Sifu,Sigung...me!) ;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I went too go see him many years ago (Fong), at one of his seminars, as we were working on some drills, and he, or I guess; seen that I was much more advances then others in the crowed, so he took my student and myself, and pull us aside, away from the others. And showed us some stuff that he did not teach to the others who was there. Man that’s was the bomb, and I played chi sao with him a lot, and became his demo partner for the whole seminar. And I wanted to be one of his students real bad. But for some reason I had too go threw his student Ken, in Chicago. Ken said that I would have too changed my religion, to Taoist or something, and I was not ready too do so. I even wrote him a few times,but I could not get threw his people. Than one day my wife called Fong’s home, I don’t know how she got his number, well you know, lady’s and there telephones. She knew that I was hurt, and wanted to try talking to him herself. I didn’t know any thing about what she was up too. My wife ends up talking to his wife for about an hour about that randy Williams stuffs. That’s how I knew she telling truth. Because my wife hates wing chun, and she would never known about that stuff, I
NEVER TOLD HER. Then after my wife said she had to go, from their long conversation, and from what she told me. Fong did not handle all of his business but his students did, but I couldn’t get pass them. Then I knew it was not Fong’s doing. I hate too sound corny, but I almost fell in love with that guy. But I guess, I still have the time too love him as the best of the best. I would love to be one of Fong's students, I will fight anyone that he put me up against, just too show my loyalty too him, as my sifu. If only I could talk too him. Maybe that would happen one day.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
I went too go see him many years ago (Fong), at one of his seminars, as we were working on some drills, and he, or I guess; seen that I was much more advances then others in the crowed, so he took my student and myself, and pull us aside, away from the others. And showed us some stuff that he did not teach to the others. Man that’s was the bomb, and I played chi sao with him a lot, and became his demo partner for the whole seminar. And I wanted to be one of his students real bad. But for some reason I had too go threw his student Ken, in Chicago. Ken said that I would have too changed my religion, to Taoist or something, and I was not ready too do so. I even wrote him a few times but I could not get threw his people. Than one day my wife called Fong’s home, I don’t know she got the number, well you know, lady’s and there telephones. She knew that I was hurt, and wanted to try too talking to him herself. I didn’t know any thing about what she was up too. My wife ends up talking to his wife for about an hour about that randy Williams stuffs. That’s how I knew she telling truth. Because my wife hates wing chun, and she would never known about that stuff, I
NEVER TOLD HER. Then after my wife said she had to go, from their long conversation and from what she told me. Fong did not handle all of his business but his students did, but I couldn’t get pass them. Then I knew it was not Fong’s doing. I hate too sound corny, but I almost fell in love with that
guy. But I guess, I still have the time too love him as the best of the best. I would love to be one of Fong student’s I will fight anyone that he put me up against, just too show my loyalty him too as my sifu. If only I could talk too him. Maybe that would happen one day.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Ali!- I don't get what you mean about this religion thing! I also don't get what you mean by "going trough" a student in Chicago! There also are no ones taking care of his "business" and no one is blocking no one from being in contact with him! What is that?...What is that thing about Randy William?...Come on!...You want to study from him,you just ask him,nobody else.You don't have to change religion!...And BTW,Fong never hides anything from anybody who wants to learn,period. There are no secrets,no chosen disciples with secret techniques,no BS.

BTW,he answer all emails himself.Write to him.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Back in 1988 it was very hard for me to get a hold of him. Then Ken was lying too me all this time. I will call Fong. asap. Thank you so much, Old Jong. :)

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.)

[old jong]

Ali-
I don't see why you should encounter any problems. You love Wing Chun and that's all is needed!...All the best! sincerely. :)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

The legal problems, which he had with Randy, That started up a long time ago. I know the whole story (via) Fong’s wifeBACK IN 1988 or so, and that is the soul truth. Maybe you didn’t know him at that time or something. I respect Fong, so I will not but his business in the street.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Name a master who didn't have to deal with "seminar instant close doors disciples"( you get the idea!) and you win the prize!!! :)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I can see how randy felt that way. If Fong see talent he will make you feel like a personal student, from the time he see if and when you’re serious. Not too say that I’m good, with what I do. But Fong sure maid me feel that way.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Vajramusti]

Response to Ali in brackets:

Man that’s was the bomb, and I played chi sao with him a lot, and became his demo partner for the whole seminar. And I wanted to be one of his students real bad. But for some reason I had too go threw his student Ken, in Chicago. Ken said that I would have too changed my religion, to Taoist or something, and I was not ready too do so.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Ali-Becominga taoist to be a Fong student? Not a grain of truth
to that. Fong's students come from many backgrounds and nationalities. Specific people that I am thinking of over the years- in their own personal backgrounds have been /are..Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, agnostic, atheist, Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu,
Confucian, Muslim, Sikh, Shinto etc in varying degrees and mixtures thereof. Ethnic backgrounds - as diverse as possible.

Because his TCMA and TCM background is considerable some of his explanations uses language at times from that background.
Like all of us he has his own private world- but there is absolutely no religious test for his wing chun or learning from him.

There is no gatekeeping by his students. Of course if a student has him up somewhere for a seminar- the students tend to the organizational details for that seminar.
His own seminars and events in Tucson- he and Mrs Fong orgabize them- again no secret handshake..

Both his practical skills and his wing chun analytical skills are formidable.

Because of his open nature there have been people on occasion who have attempted to take advantage of him. He dores not roam the net and much of the time he does not evn know what is said about him on the net.

He is an incredibly busy person- so email turnaround times can vary.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YongChun

In martial arts you should assume the guy is faster, stronger and heavier than you. If you can hit someone like that then you have a real martial art, you have real skill.

don't assume... spar/compete with people who are in that category.

wonder if boxers and Thai boxers can handle people who outweigh them by more than 40 pounds any better than martial artists can. It seems the whole premise of martial art is that it is possible for a smaller individual to defeat a larger one. If the large one can’t fight or has less skill then of course it’s easy.

I always fight people bigger than me. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lost - I compete at about 220-230, so I am in the heaviest division. I have to fight anyone over 218, no matter how big they are. My most recent fight was with a guy who was 6'3 and 300. I lost by decision.

As far as grappling goes, I am in the same category in judo. I've beaten guys who not only outrank me, but outweigh me by 50 lbs. I've also lost to guys who outweigh me by the same amount. So, can I beat them? yes. Can I beat them all? Nah, but because of my experiences, I'm better equipped to handle such situations.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Ray:
In martial arts you should assume the guy is faster, stronger and heavier than you. If you can hit someone like that then you have a real martial art, you have real skill.

SevenStar:
don't assume... spar/compete with people who are in that category.




All I mean is don't be happy if you can beat up smaller people than yourself. Some people aim too low as in just trying to be better than some classmate. For example for a small lady to beat a larger guy, that takes real skill. My Hung style teacher figured a small lady would need 10 times the skill of the guy to beat him consistently.

Ray

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

In free sparring or developing your wing chun with drills, you should always accept defeat rather then desiring victory. This way you will not have “self” in the way (ego, force and stupidity), blocking your progress.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
In free sparring or developing your wing chun with drills, you should always accept defeat rather then desiring victory. This way you will not have “self in the way (ego, force and stupidity), blocking your progress.Nice thinking.

That's what I always thought.

A lot of people seem to do well with the 'win win win' mentality before ring fights, and I've met some people who carry that over into everyday life too, but can't say I like the attitude.

Nowadays I just punch and kick... and sometimes get submitted...!!! :D There's no ego, only bruises and strains!

[black and blue]

Joy,

Thanks for the long post - interesting, and a shame about the boxing venue plans.

As I doubt whether I'll be able to get your way for a seminar, it would be great to see something in the next-best medium, some video footage. I know it offers little compared to hands on transmittion, but at least shows something.

You are quite right. I don't 'do' Wing Chun anymore, but have a strong interest in it still as I do 'deal' with WCK :) I still meet a number of Wing Chunners and spar, work out with them etc.

And yes, my exposure to the art was small (three and a half years), but I believe a person, with that time spend training hard, can pick up enough to form an opinion that isn't completely out of sorts with reality. I am lucky in that those WCK guys I work out with have 10+ years of experience I can learn a little from. I'm sure they aren't the best practitioners in the world.... but they are good and can fight!

:)

Perhaps you could record some footage from your seminar and post it on your website to illustrate the Chi Sau in relation to fighting etc etc etc.

Cheers,

Duncan

[captain]

is the bottom line,that although wing chun has it's place;against mt and bjj,wing chun simply has too many holes to cope?

Russ

[Vajramusti]

Notes on Russ's post:

is the bottom line,that although wing chun has it's place;against mt and bjj,wing chun simply has too many holes to cope?

----------------------------------------------------

Bottom line of what? Opinions? This ai'nt an election.

But anyone can have an opinion. Mine?:

Conceptually wing chun is a complete art. Period.

But it all depends on individual exponents(dedication, practice,experience) and the ability and depth of the teaching/learning and knowledge of the art..

Many exponents who I have seen over quite some time- should quit wing chun and do mma, jkd, joe's ma- etc- but not call what they do wing chun.

On the short run lots of styles can produce good "fighters". Depends on the teacher and the practitioner.