Would Mantis kungfu be ok if.....

[red5angel]

my training looked like this:

20-30 minutes of warm ups doing forms and stretching (forms can sometimes accomplish both warming up and stretching)

Form work - 30 minutes

Drills - 1 person, 2 person, bag work, etc... 20-30 minutes

Sparring/fighting - 15-20 minutes

[David Jamieson]

no.

that's completely wrong and ergo, mantis training is not for you.

[lkfmdc]

with a killer routine like that you'd be a monster doing kewl things like http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/087.jpg

You could strike kewl poses like
http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/055.jpg


and launch killer dim mak strikes
http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/102.jpg

[red5angel]

LOL! Seriously though guys, if I were training in a so called TMA, would that regimen I threw out be ok to consider my training legite?

Let's throw in that I competed in some way with others outside my school, maybe not contests but a friday nigt fight club or something. Just so I got some exposure to fighting people not of my style.

[lkfmdc]

once you master the deadly "luk sahp gow sik"
http://www.kungfuusa.net/images/photo_page/087.jpg

no can defend

[red5angel]

am I to take this as a no then?

[rogue]

red for any style that's a rather lite workout.

[red5angel]

It's roughly two hours, that's not too bad if you're doing it each night. You're right, it's not the 8-10 hours some people claimed they train back in the day and some people claim they train now, but it's respectable.

What if I throw in some time to do conditioning, say weight lifting and cardio type stuff a couple of times a week so I'm doing 3-4 hours a day of some sort of training.

[Meat Shake]

R5- We just go at it for 3 hours or so for the most part, 2 times a week. Sometimes we will spend 20 minutes or so on forms or stances, but the rest of the class is either fighting, free wrestling, or throws, and after we are exhausted we start doing groundwork until we cant.
I also go to the gym 3 times a week for 2 hours or so, and work on the heavy bag after the gym for 1 hour or so. Also do rock pole and belt cracking outside the gym and class for about a total of 4 hours a week, and headache bag and cardio for another 2. I also get together sparring matches with random people whenever possible for however long.
And I still dont train nearly as hard as a lot of people.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

(Not directed at Meat Shake)

I wouldn't take too much stock in how much people say they train on an internet forum.

Most likely they are telling you how much they would LIKE to train not how much they actually DO.

If you feel your getting a good work out with that routine than stick with it.

Keeping pushing yourself a little bit more as the workout becomes easier for you.

Right now I'm trying to do 1 1/2 hrs/ day, everyday. Either CLF or Taiji.

Peace. :D

[rogue]

Red, I meant lite because it's seems to be very broken up for just two hours. I'd drop the 30 minutes of form work since you've already done it as a warmup and use the time for the drills and sparring. But a lot depends on what your goals are and what you're trying to get out of the training method.

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
R5- We just go at it for 3 hours or so for the most part, 2 times a week. Sometimes we will spend 20 minutes or so on forms or stances, but the rest of the class is either fighting, free wrestling, or throws, and after we are exhausted we start doing groundwork until we cant.
I also go to the gym 3 times a week for 2 hours or so, and work on the heavy bag after the gym for 1 hour or so. Also do rock pole and belt cracking outside the gym and class for about a total of 4 hours a week, and headache bag and cardio for another 2. I also get together sparring matches with random people whenever possible for however long.
And I still dont train nearly as hard as a lot of people.

**** dude, and you still have time to toke.

[Chang Style Novice]

That regimen looks very similar to what we did at my former school, and one of the reasons I'm wary about going back.

Of course, for more than a year I've done almost nothing, so...

[omarthefish]

I had to re read it a couple times to see why everyone was trashing it. My initial response was just to add up the time and I thought, hey, over an hour and a half...not bad. But then I took a closer look:


20-30 minutes of warm ups doing forms and stretching (forms can sometimes accomplish both warming up and stretching)

30 minutes for a WARM UP!?! 5 minutes is all you need . . . TOPS. You could just skip rope for 3 or 4 minutes and your body will be plenty warm. Me? I don't warm up. But there's not high kicks or anything in my style. It's just not acrobatic enough for me to worry about pulling a hamstring or whatever.

Second problem:

If your forms can serve as a warm up then they are not terribly usefull training devices. Knowing the popular consensus about forms I am reluctant to admit it but...they ..IT actually is the meat of my training. But the form I do used to make me feel like puking afterword. Now I have progressed to simply being too tired to repeat it again untill my legs stop wiggling and the discomfort in my dan tian area goes away.

Form work - 30 minutes

As I just suggested...depends on what your forms are like. I've not seen many that truly qualify as TRAINING. 'Practice', yes. 'Training' no. And when I do devote time to working on the form....a full hour constitutes a "good" session.


Drills - 1 person, 2 person, bag work, etc... 20-30 minutes


That parts not bad. That's about what I did in Muay Thai.

Sparring/fighting - 15-20 minutes

eh....sort of ok. Depends on the overal structure of your class. Just a 20 minute sparring session is not to impressive but if the sparring is not stand alone but rather mixed in with the drill then I like it. I don't always enjoy really structured sparring. I like it when it is more like play. We talk...we argue...we go at it a bit...we go back to our drills...we experiment. I take a lesson from my 2 cats. I like the way they ambush each other, roll around and fight for a moment and then one sprints off. Then they chill for a bit and then go at it some more. I think I learn more that way.

What you described, sounds like about the best that can be typically expected in a classroom setting where time is limited. If you are serious about your training then you need to break it up. I need 90 minutes just for my circle walking sometimes more. My "warm up" may be the 40 minute bicycle ride to the park. I'd hate to waste classs time on those things.

[joedoe]

IMO the warm up in a class should be no more than 10-15 minutes. People go to class to learn, not to do an aerobics class so the warmup should be short and sharp. Leave the cardio work for outside of class.

[TAO YIN]

Red,

For the warm up, I think it depends on your goals. If you want to achieve more flexibility and softness, I think 20-30 minutes is ok. As far as forms, drills and padwork, and sparring, if you are doing all of these things full on for 30 minutes each, you are getting a good workout. If you are doing all of these things 6-7 times a week, very good.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by omarthefish
30 minutes for a WARM UP!?! 5 minutes is all you need . . . TOPS. You ever try an arabesque or chassé without a proper stretch? The man needs to be properly stretched!

[red5angel]

let me break it down into specifics. This regimen is trying to add some "legitamcy" in the minds of those who don't see it in traditional arts.

The 20-30 minutes of "warm up" is not only just to warm up (by the way, some people need mroe then 5 minutes) but stretching and forms work. Ideally you would run through forms already known during this time. Some forms require more warm up so wouldn't be done until the last half of this phase or the beginning of the learning forms phase.

The Forms work itself is to isolate learning new material for the most part, as well as brushing up and making your older material more precise.

The sparring is mainly focused on sparring. Maybe you set up a couple of guys at a time in a couple of different groups, or maybe you just do a continuous round, rotating people in and out. The idea is that not only are you sparring but your working hard enough to get the conditioning out of it as well.

The drilling part of class is a more relaxed situation, where you probably split the class up into several groups and have them work on various drills, some may do bag work, some may do two man drills or what have you.

Hopefully this would normally go to two hours, these are bare minimum times for each section of training. Also, you'd ideally be doing this atleast 4 days a week, with outside fighting, weight training and other unrelated forms of training taking up the rest ofyour available training time - hopefully about 2 hours a day minimum.
If you really wanted to be hard core and could fit it in you could do this sort of regimen 5-6 days a week and add your physical training as well.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with Joe, warm up on your own before. Actually, I would question anything you're doing that requires a warm up .... you have no time to put your leg up on a ballerina bar on the street. Your movements should be natural, compact and easy. Though I know this view may not be a popular one.

I don't know what type of drills that person would be doing in that 30 minutes so it be hard to say. But I can say what I like about where I train.

The teacher will come in and give a lecture sort of for about 10 minutes, more of a what we're trying to achieve today sort of thing, the principle behind it, what you should look try to achieve, what you should look out for. Then we put the gloves on and go to work.

If the principle is wedging, we'll start off lined up and train wedging incoming strikes. You work to the level of the guy you're with. If you can handle more pressure, you request it. This can go on for an hour, you switch off and rotate to a new partner every 3 to 5 minutes. Of course the teacher will break the action when he sees something, explains further, etc.

Then we'll break out to the sides a bit and he'll explain how the same movement/shape, can wedge a kick. He'll tell us what to look for and what not to do.

We'll put leg gear on and chest guards, line up, and start kicking. We'll do this for about an hour.

The last hour we could delve into another topic, how what we trained can be used on the groun, or we may train mechanics, and walk back and forth across the hall driving off the back leg, training the relationship with the back/shoulder/elbow/hands .... this will help all the drills.

I like this type of training. Breaking out something specific and training it under as much force as you can handle, want to handle that day.

I'm sure there are forms that have that same principle in it. But how long to learn the form? How long to understand the principle? And even then, you won't know if you can use it until you train it against a training partner, because you'de be foolish to pull it out for the first time against a strange foe. So why not just cut to the chase?

[unixfudotnet]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
(Not directed at Meat Shake)

I wouldn't take too much stock in how much people say they train on an internet forum.

Most likely they are telling you how much they would LIKE to train not how much they actually DO.

If you feel your getting a good work out with that routine than stick with it.

Keeping pushing yourself a little bit more as the workout becomes easier for you.

Right now I'm trying to do 1 1/2 hrs/ day, everyday. Either CLF or Taiji.

Peace. :D


Great answer!

My advice is the same, just do something, then slowly build it up. When starting any training program, the hardest part isn't really the program, it is actually planning and doing it. If you are doing it, then you have done the hardest part.

Work yourself hard, like your teachers do. Just work it period, only way to get better, and good job on organizing and critiquing your training program :)

Keep at it, and you will amaze yourself by the progress you will be making! :)

[unixfudotnet]

In regards to warmup, I see it as getting the blood flowing, stretching, and loosening the joints. Also anything that feels like it isn't right needs to get stretches and rotated, like hips, ankles, neck, etc. It could all easily be 20-30 minutes. In the school that I go to, we spend that much time before actually doing kungfu activities, punches/blocks/drills. Finally at the end, we work on forms, and fist sets.

Many people seem to try to rush everything to get to the "good stuff" when making sure your body is stretched and loose should be just as important, and required part of your training. You should also be able to tell what needs to be worked more if you need it when you start doing your form as your body will just not feel right, that is how it is for me anyways :)

Man, now I want to leave work and go work on my stuff, heh :) *sigh*

[Water Dragon]

Here's my suggestion Red, this is basically how we run our Vale Tudo class and how I was running my Shuai Chiao class when we had the club going. It works, and will give you results if you do it with high intensity. You'll need to push yourself. If you need examples of exercises, let me know.

Start with about a 20-30 minute warm up, but work yourself hard. Do a variety of push ups, a HUGE amount of ab work, bodyweight squats, lunges, bear walks, burpees, Mountain Climbers, etc. The goal is not to increase strength so much as your muscular endurance. You're goal is to create a body that can go hard for extended periods. If the other guy gasses before you, you win. Even if he's better than you.

After your warm up, start your workout. Get some Boxing focus mits and Thai Pads, some hand wraps and bag gloves, and a kitchen timer. Those are the essentials. You can also get MMA gloves, Boxing gloves, a heavy bag, kick shield, etc. If you want to spar, you will need a good mouthpiece and cup as well. Headgear is great and has huge advantages, but is not essential.

You want to work drills for the majority of the class. Probably about an hour to 1 1/2 hours. Set your timer to 2 minutes with 1 minute rest in between. Have each person do 3 sets and switch who holds pads.

Start off with simple combo drills. You can do your Mantis combos, just do them on the mits and pads. It will automatically adjust your technique and give you constant feedback, which is nice.

To begin, do hand combos by themselves and kicks by themselves. Don't worry about locks or throws for at least a good 6 months. Get your hands and feet up to par first as you need to open the door before you can walk in. In about a month, start mixing up punches, kicks, knees, and elbows on the Thai Pads.

Also do reaction drills. The pad holder swing the pad and you come back with a combo. We do it like this. If he thrws a jab, I come back with jab-cross-hook. If he comes with a cross, I throw crtoss-hook-cross. If he throws a hook, I duck under and come back with hook-uppercut-hook. You get the idea. this will train your body to automatically respond to an attack.

During your 1 minute rest between sets either work abs or walk lines. Walking a line means you take 1 movement from a form and repeat walking down a line for a minute. If you do 5 sets on the pads you can get in about 20-30 sets of line walking. Don't do too much form work, it has it's place but don't obsess over it. If you feel you're not getting any advantage, do something else.

After the 6 months, you can work in your throws and locks on your pad holder. Just do the combo on the pads and finsih with your takedown. Pretty simple actually.

Do your formwork at the end when you are already toasted. You'll get more benefit and wont have to hold your stance for more than 30 seconds to a minute if you do it right. Stretch at the end to cool down, not at the beginning to warm up.

[Water Dragon]

Sparring and sparring drills are a whole 'nuther topic, but we can get into that as well if you want.

[red5angel]

just so it's clear, I'm just throwing some hypotheticals out in an attempt to rectify the istuation of TMA not being credible, trying to find a middle ground as it were.

My own training for capoeira goes like this -

15-20 minutes warming up - this means 5 minutes of stretching, and about 10 -15 minutes usually drilling combinations of basic techniques to warm up with.

Once we're done stretching we work through combo drills. In capoiera its extremely important to learn to tie strings of moves in together, working to the point where it comes randomly and without thought. We do what we call walking drills, where you start at one end of the room, do the combo in one direction, then turn around and go back.
Usually we split up to work in 2's or 3's working the stuff we just got done drilling against someone.
We do this sort of thing for about 40 minutes, then do an open roda for 15-30 minutes.
Usually most of us stick around for 10-60 minutes after class to work on refining things we learned in class.

For myself, I'm good with this, my goal is to have fun. I'm not looking to gain more self defense skills, but the ability to move that we learn in cap is nice. I'm not looking to train to fight, but I still spar from time to time. We don't train a whole lot of contact unless we're practicing some take downs, sweeps or other low impact techniques.


throw in some light weight work, some bodyweight work and some running every other day and that's my training regimen.

[red5angel]

WD - I need to do more ab work, I think I'm going to start working more on it, like you suggest.


Here's my take on warming up -

Personally, I have to do it before capoeira, the few times I haven't I've come away with minor niggling injuries.

I also feel that warming up and stretching is necessary for several reasons. It reduces the amount of injuries or the possibility of injury, period.
I also believe that in the long term, warming up and strecthing before high impact workouts, like fighting or training to fight, helps sustain your ability to do it longer. By that I mean if you warm up properly and strecth consistantly, I believe you won't feel the affects of age as much as you grow older.

I could certainly by the idea that you could warm up and not "waste" precious class time, but I feel some class time in the beginning needs to be utilized to warm the body up. Several apropriate ways to do this, from basic calisthenics, to light sparring bag work. I just feel it's necessary and not a waste.

[Ray Pina]

There's actually been some recent studies in medical journals that say warming up, and particularly stretching, can cause more harm than good before exercise or sports. I don't have the link, but it was a pretty big study and I'm sure you can find it online.

I understand why some people do though, and for Cap. it seems like agood idea or for TKD and you want to maintain that ceiling high side kick.

But how hard do you have to work to maintain it? How quick does it go away if you stop?

I see this in surfing alot. Weekend guys come and spend 20 minutes with their legs spread on the sand warming up. I'm in the water 3 times a week, surfing whenever there's waves. It's like sitting down to take a $hit. My body does it all the time, it's a natural movement, don't have to do some knee bends or touch my toes first.

[MasterKiller]

The studies say deep stretching before a workout is detrimental and decreases performance because of decreased tension, I believe. Professional atheletes warm up by slowly going through the motions they will perform later at full speed. Starting any atheletic endeavor "cold" is asking for an injury.

Go to an NFL game sometime. The players will be on the field for 30 minutes before game time running routes, throwing, kicking, long-snapping, etc...You think at that point in their careers, an extra 30 minutes of practice is necessary?

And since when does being flexible ONLY help you with high kicks? I find flexibility sometimes comes into play more on the ground than when standing.

[red5angel]

I've heard the theories about not warming up, I don't buy it. Some people can get away with not warming up and being fine but in my experience it's important to warm up and stretch some. I do believe it's more important to stretch afterwards.

Essentially if I were running a school I'd include it, atleast 10 minutes of warming up.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
There's actually been some recent studies in medical journals that say warming up, and particularly stretching, can cause more harm than good before exercise or sports. I don't have the link, but it was a pretty big study and I'm sure you can find it online.



If you can find it online I'd like to read it.

There's several variables they should consider:

1) Is the person stretching correctly.

There's all kinds of ways to stretch incorrectly. For example, bouncing in your stretches. It can actually tighten the muscles.

2) Is the person stretching, loosening and warming the muscles?

What I mean is. Are you stretching and tonifying the muscles as you warm up? For example, while one leg is stretching the other leg can be supporting your weight and warming up. This also gets the "feeling" of correct structure in the non-stretched leg.

Loosening means gentley rotating the joints so they are capable of the full range of motion. Instead of just stretching the joint in one plane and leaving the joint tight.

[MightyB]

Seriously,

I barely work out and I'm a total bad@ss. I maybe do two forms when I'm not being totally lazy. When I work out with my WC/Tai Chi friend, we do Chin Na and sparring. But I barely work out. Once in a blue-moon, I go Randori with the boys at the Y. I hit the weights because it makes me look good, and I occasionally do some Chi Gung.

The sad thing is that even with my current regimen, I'd be hard pressed to find any non-professional fighter that I'd be afraid to fight.

But I was born a bad @ss, so I don't have to work to hard at it. I spar to keep the edge up, but these rediculously long training regimens that people put themselves through... where do you get the time to have a life.

But then Again, I've actually seen naked women.

[red5angel]

Wattup MightyB?!?!? Where you been man?

[norther practitioner]

You think at that point in their careers, an extra 30 minutes of practice is necessary?

I've watched a Cowboys game this year, and the answer is yes.

[joedoe]

IMO the warmup should be long enough to get everything warmed up and loose enough to avoid injury. That is why I prefer individual warm ups rather than class warm ups because different people need to warm up in different ways.

When I was playing volleyball seriously, we would spend 30-45 minutes warming up before a game. The aim was to be warm enough to provide optimum endurance and power and avoid injury. In training, our warmups were only 15 minutes because the main aim was to avoid injury.

[MightyB]

I've been around. I don't get the time to hang out online like I used to. I didn't realize how easy I had it in my previous job.

I still log on every now and again but I don't have much to say since the collective KFO mentality has went through an evolution that I agree with.


-------
I still maintain that you train for what you want to do. Keep it real, don't get lost in the mumbo jumbo shenanigans, and don't obsess to the detriment of other things in your life.

[red5angel]

well the last post was funny as hell! great to see you around anyway!