Zhang Zhuan and martial arts...

[Samurai Jack]

I've practiced Qi Gong, specifically standing Qi Gong (Zhang Zhuan), off and on for several years. I'm curious to know if any of you internal stylists could provide any insights into what precise benifit this practice has to a martial art. I've heard so many claims, but have yet to see any benifit beyond the vague "increase in the flow of Qi" explanation.

Does standing have any measurable application to martial arts training? If you had two Xing-yi stylists for example who spent an equal amount of time training form, sparring, etc., would the one who practiced Zhang Zhuan (ala San Ti or Yi Chuan) be more powerful?

[Buddy]

Does standing have any measurable application to martial arts training?

Yes. Standing develops a tremendous amount of static power.

"If you had two Xing-yi stylists for example who spent an equal amount of time training form, sparring, etc., would the one who practiced Zhang Zhuan (ala San Ti or Yi Chuan) be more powerful?"


Powerful? Zhan Zhuang. Fighting? The other guy maybe. Why not do both?

[Samurai Jack]

That's what I'm asking. If you have two Internal stylists who spend an equal amount of time working martial technique, but only one of them spends time practicing Qi Gong, would the Qi Gong guy be a better fighter?

If not, then the reason I wouldn't want to do both would be because the Qi Gong would be a waste of time and effort for my purposes.

In other words, Qi Gong is very difficult, IMO more difficult than practicing a martial art. So my question is from a martial standpoint does Standing Qi Gong provide any benefit?

And what do you mean by "static power"? Fighting is very dynamic, so I'll need to be able to use any power I develop with Zhan Zhuang in movement.

[Zenshiite]

Standing meditation also improves your rooting.

Without a firm root your martial techniques are nothing.

Xing yi, Ba gua, Tai chi are nothing without a firm root. Hence why standing meditation are important.

Peace,
Dawud

[Buddy]

"And what do you mean by "static power"? Fighting is very dynamic, so I'll need to be able to use any power I develop with Zhan Zhuang in movement."

I mean it deveops a lot of power. A lot. But unless you train how to use that power it's of little use. Similarly if you train martial technique but lack power your technique is useless. Unless of course you just use strength, in which case you might as well just study and external style. I could readily show you what this power feels like. Unless you learn to develop neijin, you're not doing IMA anyway.

[Ray Pina]

Helps you become more aware of the connections, also, with time, those uncomfortable postures should become comfortable.

Also, take the popular posture that looks like you're holding a tree. You slowly raise the arms with the breath, but also the mind. You try to use as little muscle as possible, meaning, limit it to the least common denominator. Try to have everybody who is not necessary relax.

Later you do this with a slightly resisting partner. Isolate the guy who does the job.

Later on, this saves oxygen/energy. This is something I was working on about 4 months ago but have been side tracked a little working some other areas.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I've practiced Qi Gong, specifically standing Qi Gong (Zhang Zhuan), off and on for several years.)

If after 7 years of practice you still have to ask others what it is good for, it seems like you probably wasted your time. Maybe your practice is incorrect ? its usage should be self evident.

[Buddy]

Unfortunatley, the leaf is right. Seven years in Zhan Zhuang should make the power pretty obvious. Also EF ,while I like that stance for health, I feel that some form of Santi, whether Xingyi's or Yiquan's modified, better for developing power in all directions.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
I've practiced Qi Gong, specifically standing Qi Gong (Zhang Zhuan), off and on for several years.

Although they sound a lot alike I just wanted to point out that "several" =/= "seven".

;)

[Buddy]

Doesn't matter.

[Samurai Jack]

Sure it does. "Off and on for several years", i.e. once in awhile for three years or less is a far cry from "seven years of (consistent) practice". I agree that if I practiced daily for seven years I should know whether or not Zhang Zhuan would improve my power, connection, structure, and so on.

The reason I came to the internal arts forum asking for Qi Gong advice is that when it comes to Qi Gong, I AM A BEGINNER. LOL at BL and Buddy putting me down for not being privy to their apparently vast knowledge. Too bad they won't share it with a mere mortal. :rolleyes:

[Buddy]

"Sure it does. "Off and on for several years", i.e. once in awhile for three years or less is a far cry from "seven years of (consistent) practice"."

My point was it doesn't matter if it was several or seven. If you'd practiced consistantly for either and didn't get results, several or seven would mean you've been missing something. If you've only been doing it half assed for either no wonder you don't understand it.

"I agree that if I practiced daily for seven years I should know whether or not Zhang Zhuan would improve my power, connection, structure, and so on."


OK fine you agree. Then why didn't you take my answer at face value?

"The reason I came to the internal arts forum asking for Qi Gong advice is that when it comes to Qi Gong, I AM A BEGINNER."

A fact you neglected to mention.

"LOL at BL and Buddy putting me down for not being privy to their apparently vast knowledge."

Son, no one put you down. You received some very valuable comments. You wanted an either/or answer and there isn't one. So do what you want. If you don't want to hear the answer don't ask the question. If you want to hear only the answer you want, join a place with a black belt club.

"Too bad they won't share it with a mere mortal."

I guess you're too busy LOLing to hear any sharing.


__________________
Aikido: Putting the "harm" back in "harmony".

LOL at there being any harm in aikido.

[Samurai Jack]

Buddy, I appreciate the fact that you were willing to give an opinion to my question. I suppose I felt a little persnickity being misquoted and misunderstood. Re-reading you're initial comments, I see that you were offering helpful advice. Sorry to have offended. :o

[Brad]

Some benifits I've noticed when I practiced regularly are better mental focus(in both academic and athletics), better able to control my breathing, increased leg strength, more fluid movement, and better relaxed joints.

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html

(Tips for Zhan Zhuang practice
Establish a regular routine
The best way to achieve that is to start with very little but every day. What is 'very little'? Say 10 seconds - and I do not mean it as a joke! If you start with 10 seconds, you'll eventually be able to go to hours with no problem (if you wish). )


(Pain is not necessary
Pain is distracting. Remember, you are training your mind - if the pain in your legs or arms distracts you, you can't concentrate, so stop practising or change to another posture. If you have pain in any of your joints, stop practising - you should never feel pain in your joints. Muscle pain could be OK, but best to check with someone who would know (for example your teacher). )



Sorry if you read my post that way it was not my intent. But for that amount of time it seems like you should have some idea of what the practices is for. The site listed provides some insights to the practice of standing.

[Samurai Jack]

Thank you. This information is extremly helpful. I was a dedicated though unfortunately not particularly advanced Hsing-i practitioner before studying Aikido and have often wondered at the similarity between certain Hsing-i and Pa Kua postures and Aikido's postures.

For example Aikido's Tsuki punch is identical to Beng Chuan, Pi Chuan to Shomen Uchi. "Phoenix spreads wings" is identical to tai-no-henka. Also Aikido is based in large part on movements derived from short spear and katana, while Hsing-i uses spear movements.

I've been interested in exploring the possible benifit of standing practice to my Aikido as a result of these interesting similarities. I've even heard that Pa Kua and Aikido may share a common heritage (though there are many sceptics of this theory).

[Zenshiite]

i suggest you pick up a copy of "Warriors of Stillness Vol 2 The Tao of Yi Quan: The Method of Awareness in the Martial Arts" by Jan Diepersloot. Great book.

Peace,
Dawud

[Buddy]

Jack,
No blood, no foul. If you want to do a search I wrote some stuff about basic neigong (including standing) on this board a while back. It may be of some use.

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks!

[Joseph_alb]

I really think you should have studied more Xingyi before thinking about those similarities. They really couldnt be more different.

Im sure you were dedicated though. Listen to Buddy, he's the man.

[looking_up]

Ugh...please stop saying that aikido and taiji/xingyi/bagua are the same. Shomen-uchi is NOT pi quan. If you do the standing every day (at least 20 minutes) you will understand.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by looking_up
Ugh...please stop saying that aikido and taiji/xingyi/bagua are the same.

I didn't say they were the same, just similar... eerily similar IMO. I'll keep discussing these similarities for awhile since I find them interesting.


Originally posted by looking_up
Shomen-uchi is NOT pi quan.

I'm open to hearing your opinion. I started another thread to discuss similarities and differences between the arts so as not to divert the topic away from my initial inquiry. Anything you'd like to add to back up your opinion should go there. I'm really interested to hear what you have to say!


Originally posted by looking_up
If you do the standing every day (at least 20 minutes) you will understand.

Really the whole reason I started this thread was to see how others were doing with standing practice, and to get some opinions on it's applicability to actual combat. I HAVE stood for lengthy periods and trained with some very good teachers. It's a shame but I didn't see the value in it because it was so difficult and time consuming and frankly it didn't seem to be providing me with any benifits. I'm still open to the possibility that it has value on the other hand, and am eager to find out what long term practitioners of the method have to say.

Now as someone else pointed out, I suppose I could have been doing EVERYTHING wrong, but if I followed your advice it wouldn't matter. Right or wrong, I'd "know" the value of standing practice, and because my experience indicates it, I'd "know" that standing is a collosal waste of time.

Of course that's absurd. It may not have worked for me, but there're lots of possibilities as to why. If a method has worked for others, then those people should be able to explain it.

[Buddy]

Jack,
As I have mentioned, my experience is that standing builds power. As I also said, I could show you this power quite readily. Also a few of my students, and certainly all my seniors. But you live far away so that's impractical. You already have a number of pointers about standing practice, so my suggestion is that you ask (here and other boards) where you might someone in your area that can show you in person.

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks Buddy. I'm planning on swinging down to San Fransisco pretty soon for a George Xu seminar. I'll ask Master Xu what he thinks. Actually, I already know what he'll say, "You just keep standing!", but I'll ask him to check my form anyway.

[Buddy]

I also highly recommend my kung fu brother Bernie Langan just across the bay in Albany CA (just north of Berkeley). He teaches Gao style baguazhang and Pentjak Silat Sera.

[looking_up]

Let's start with this: why was standing so difficult?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Just something i have noticed over the years.. Wuji or Zhang Zhuan is a pretty good indicator of a person's level of dedication and discipline.. by insisting that we begin each class with at least 5 minutes of standing meditation i have watched many student's dedication and discipline evolve and some deteriorate..

From a personal perspective it is a super inventory of current physical, mental and spiritual status.. one can sense Qi trouble spots, can correct almost imperceptable alignment inconsistencies, can calm scattered thinking, and raise the spirit.. all this while cultivating Qi.. not to mention regulating breath.. in my personal practice i begin with Taiji Diagram training for +/- 5 minutes prior to standing to activate Qi so i can more easily sense its presence and movement..

Much wisdom has been posted regarding the necessity for solid grounding, and standing meditations are excellent disciplines for sensing and developing one's connection with the earth.. internal arts are foundationally dependent upon grounding (rooting) to attain any reasonable level of proficiency or power.. try standing in neck deep water where your grounding is compromised by buoyancy and water applies resistance to every move, remaining grounded during movement is quite difficult (but a good practice).. Dr, Yang Jwing-Ming offers an excellent training tool in his "standing on bricks" routine.. stand bricks on end then do your standing meditations and silk reeling while standing on the bricks.. he says, and my experience agrees, that you learn to project your Qi downward past the bricks to eastblish balance and rooting..

For me, standing meditations are as essential as the form itself.. it is the Wuji that supports Taiji..

Be well..

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

Just something i have noticed over the years.. Wuji or Zhang Zhuan is a pretty good indicator of a person's level of dedication and discipline.. by insisting that we begin each class with at least 5 minutes of standing meditation i have watched many student's dedication and discipline evolve and some deteriorate..


I agree wholeheartidly with the above, Bob. On the other hand, Five minutes is a far cry from the hour + of practice that was a part of my early practice! Do you think that briefer standing sessions offer similar benifits to longer ones?

One thing that is becoming clear to me as this discussion continues is that people appear to have differing beliefs concerning what is meant by Zhang Zhuan. Witness the next comment.


Originally posted by looking_up
Let's start with this: why was standing so difficult?

I'm tempted to give you the same answer you gave me (i.e. try it and see), but all teasing aside, daily standing for an hour a day can at times be inconvienent, tedious, painful, frustrating, and it takes time from work/play/school/family (did I mention PAINFUL?).

Lets get past this, anyone who has engaged a daily standing practice for at least an hour a day already knows it can be VERY uncomfortable.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Samurai Jack: Due to time constraints at the school i only ask for 5 min. to show them the "potential", and i counsel them to make standing meditation a part of their daily training.. in my personal practice it ranges from 20 to 40 minutes.. yes, it can be painful.. that is your body signaling areas of concern: blockages; or inconsistencies in alignment, thought or spirit; or poor technique..

I think 20 minutes is minimum to receive real benefits or to make real progress.. i think 40 minutes is maximum due to micro-tears in muscles that become minutely atrophyed, and betond 40 minutes you enter into a meditative state that is somewhat counterproductive to Qi cultivation and manipulation.. i have stood for times in excess of an hour, but find it draining and remarkably difficult to focus on my intent and difficult to exit the meditation without "post-partum" blues.. hence my favor with 20-40 minutes..

One of the miracles of standing meditation is the unfolding awareness of the symphony of processes within the human body.. after a while one can feel/sense many previously unperceived events in the body.. ie: organ functions, blood flow, food processing, etc... then, at some point hopefully, we sense the subtle hum of pure energy (bio-electrical energy/Qi)..

Be well..

[Buddy]

First I will shock the world by agreeing with Bob...at least for the most part.:D Personally I think 20-30 minutes is optimal. Longer and you end up fighting yourself for diminishing returns.

"Wuji or Zhang Zhuan is a pretty good indicator of a person's level of dedication and discipline.. "

Zhang Zhuan is a generic term and does not refer to a specific posture. I think you mean, by the term Wuji, a parallel stance with or without the arms in an embracing posture. WHile I agree this is a good beginning stance and one perfectly reasonable one for health improvement, a stance with the weight distributed uneveny (I prefer 100/0, but as well 70/30, 80/20, etc.) to better for developing power for fighting. Santi is great.


"in my personal practice i begin with Taiji Diagram training for +/- 5 minutes prior to standing to activate Qi so i can more easily sense its presence and movement.."

Do you mean as described in Jou's book? If so the chanszjin exercises from Chen style or the luoxuanjin exercises we have in baguazhang are far superior.

"Dr, Yang Jwing-Ming offers an excellent training tool in his "standing on bricks" routine.. stand bricks on end then do your standing meditations and silk reeling while standing on the bricks.. he says, and my experience agrees, that you learn to project your Qi downward past the bricks to eastblish balance and rooting.."


While I don't intend this to reflect on you or your experiences, I disagree. Standing on the ground is far more productive. Dr Yang is, I have heard, an adept at Bai He. His Taiji is abyssmal. I've seen him and his students countless times over the years and they have no concept of internal shenfa.

When I was teaching a lot of standing even raw beginners would stand for ten minutes, no less. That will evoke a strong response. Re: pain, it's temporary, although a bitc,h. If after a few months you can stand for 20-40 minutes and you still fell pain, you're doing it wrong. You're simply not being taught how to properly relax the body/mind. There are distinct phases one goes through in learning standing and almost everyone I have taught has very similar symptoms. If you learn how to progressively relax, the pain will disappear.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by Buddy
Re: pain, it's temporary, although a bitc,h. If after a few months you can stand for 20-40 minutes and you still fell pain, you're doing it wrong. You're simply not being taught how to properly relax the body/mind.

I suspected as much. Unfortunately it has been extremly difficult to find a teacher skilled enough to point me in the right direction. So much dilution, so many willing to claim mastery after learning a form...

I'd still be doing IMA if top quality teachers were available in my area. As it turned, I went with the only truly good teacher I could find, and he happens to be an Aikidoka.

[Walter Joyce]

FWIW

Mike Sigman was also led to internal arts through his experience with akido.

While Mike is more than capable of expressing his own views, my understanding is that aikido, as he was exposed to it (Mike has a habit of pursuing things in depth) wasn't enough.

Mike is a strong advocate for chen taiji, and has spent close to a decade or more exploring what neijia arts are about and trying to communicate that.

While there may be surface similarities between aikido and neijia arts the degree to which the dantien is developed in chen taiji as the center of all movement is far more intricate than the admonishment to "work from the center" that so many arts advocate, both internal and external.

Mike's view, as I understand it (and I agree) is that many arts have similar reminders about whole body power and moving from the center, but that the question that separates the chinese internals is how you achieve those goals.

The specific qigong and neigong exercises associated with the chinese internals develop a sense of connectivity that is one of the foundations, the use of the dantien is another, and the specific methods of the big three (xing I, taiji, and ba gua) are what give the special flavor, or characteristics of the power generation of each.

An intellectual understanding will only go so far, it is the actual practice that will give you the understanding.


As an aside, after years of training in a variety of disciplines, my advice is to ignore the external similarities of movement. There are only so many ways the human body can move as discernible by the eye (even the trained eye) and fighting arts in general share similar external movements.

What separates the diffferent arts for the most part, is how they develop power, and the startegies they apply in fighting. While there may be some overlap, there are specific practices, many of which are rejected by some as having nothing to do with fighting, that will develop the power that is the hallmark of internalists. It has to be felt, but once you have the differnce becomes amazingly clear.

Peace

[Buddy]

Jack,
I recommend BK Frantzis' book "Opening the Energy Gates of the Body" as an excellant intro to neigong. I learned from him for many years and found this method effective. If you try and have questions, I would be happy to address them here or by email. I prefer here so others may benefit but it's up to you. BTW good to see the "Lohan Lawyer" back in the fray.

[looking_up]

Consider yourself lucky to receive advice from Walter and Buddy. I'm at a point where I can see why many practitioners just stop talking about their practice. Buddy continues to share and it is generous of him to do so.

I'll bow out because our discussion is going nowhere and you'll get better advice from the veterans. The only things I'll suggest are to find the right teacher and to always keep relaxation in mind when standing.

Good luck.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


a stance with the weight distributed uneveny (I prefer 100/0, but as well 70/30, 80/20, etc.) to better for developing power for fighting. Santi is great. Absolutely, and the Qi cultivation is noticably increased..


Do you mean as described in Jou's book? If so the chanszjin exercises from Chen style or the luoxuanjin exercises we have in baguazhang are far superior. The Taiji diagram exercises are similar to Jou Tsung Hua's, but i intend it just to lightly activate the Qi.. i favor Chen style Chan si jin in lower stances for serious internal development..


While I don't intend this to reflect on you or your experiences, I disagree. Standing on the ground is far more productive. Dr Yang is, I have heard, an adept at Bai He. His Taiji is abyssmal. I've seen him and his students countless times over the years and they have no concept of internal shenfa I have trained and pushed with Dr. Yang and found his internal knowledge and prowess to be greatly superior to his external expressions of forms.. (i do not favor his forms).. he is similar to WCC Chen (whom i've pushed with as well) in effectiveness, but they approach internal sparring a little differently.. Dr. Yang's Qinna is quite developed and effective.. the brick suggestion is not intended to be a main training device, just a method of exploring "connections"..

One day a week, outside regularly scheduled classes, we have an informal gathering to work on specific areas of interest (Qinna, weapons, meditation, pushing, etc) or concern.. this may be 2-4 hours.. where i often suggest, a good 30 minute standing meditation, but.. i do not force that regimen, i only counsel the student regarding the limitations a lack of standing meditation imposes on their progress.. Perhaps someone can assist me, here.. it seems that group standing meditation for lengthy periods don't work well in my experience.. i sense that conflicting energies and conflicting levels of expertise distract the students at some level i cannot manage.. perhaps the proximity to others working at differing issues adds an overall element of chaos to the experience.. i don't know, just fishing and going on intuition..

Thanks, Buddy.. (humble bows)..

Be well..

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi there - just wanted your take on what I do at the moment, and how it might be improved.

I train 6 postures, but all in 50/50 - i dont move my feet once I've started, just change the height and facing of my hands. I tend to work to breaths rather than minutes - 13 breaths per posture works out at about 12-15 minutes standing time. I have been taking the postures deeper over time, rather than doing them for longer.

So, my questions:
1) is time more valuable than depth for Standing Post?
2) if working 80/20, what postures are best? (describe them physically please - e.g. left mountain climbing stance, left hand at ward off, right hand palm down around the hip (brush knee basically)
3) I tend to only get pain in my thighs which I take to be tension as I can relax out of the pain - should I be changing to a different posture at this point?
4) is it ok to mix different weightings during one session?
5) are silk-reeling exercises of equal efficacy for root in your opinion?

[Buddy]

Ok I'll give it a shot. Remember I'm a bagua guy not a taiji guy but in my opinion these styles along with xingyi share a basic body method.

"So, my questions:
1) is time more valuable than depth for Standing Post?"

Yes. Standing is more than just leg strengthening. It is excellant for that but reread Bobs post about all the other things it develops. My expereince is that the heavy rooting effect it produces is just the beginning stage. Formerly my neijin was heavy as I 'bounced' my power off my root. Now it all mostly comes from the yao/kua (waist, lumbar, inguinal area) and the power is much more crisp and penetrating.


2) if working 80/20, what postures are best? (describe them physically please - e.g. left mountain climbing stance, left hand at ward off, right hand palm down around the hip (brush knee basically)


Because I also practice xingyi (it's a part of Yizong bagua) I favor Santi. This is a back weighted posture with the lead hand at at about mouth height palm forward arm bent at about 120 degree angle with the elbow rotated downward pointing to the ground (luoxuanjin). The rear hand is in approximately the same posture in front of the navel.

3) I tend to only get pain in my thighs which I take to be tension as I can relax out of the pain - should I be changing to a different posture at this point?

Sure, or just keep relaxing/expanding. This is an ongong process (yin ceasingly changing to yang).

4) is it ok to mix different weightings during one session?

Why not?

5) are silk-reeling exercises of equal efficacy for root in your opinion?

Different animals. Silk reeling is all about how to use whole body power centered on the hips amd waist.
Buddy

[Ray Pina]

"I can see why many practitioners just stop talking about their practice."

Actually, I've yet to find any martial artist -- internal of otherwise -- who won't shut up if you play a little stupid and interested.

Truth be told, you won't learn what you want from being here. Even if someone here has proven they know what they are doing, AND have made it work for them in both health AND* combat, how are you to learn it over the net or through a book?

Find yourself a good teacher. You'll know when you do. Just be honest with yourself.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yes, let's be honest.. i have no intention of "teaching" here.. i share insights in hopes of learning how others gained their insights.. and, maybe one or two of my insights may be helpful in pointing others toward a useful experience.. Cripe, it's a passionate addiction, i enjoy dialoguing with others on this subject.. i enjoy even the contentious exchanges, it helps me manage emotions and hone my conflict management skills.. this forum is no substitute for a teacher, but it may help someone discern a knowledgable teacher from a BS artist..

The forum should be a happy place where we can share and gain insights, get some training tips and discuss theories, etc.. not the playground of poorly intended egos and trolls.. but, it is what it is and it beats many other similar venues..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Taichi Bob, my post was not directed at your or anyone in particular -- I enjoy your posts.

I think it was directed at us as a collective, to remind us that it is a never ending practice. I would venture very few of us are "experts" or have achieved a level we are comfortable with. At least I haven't.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Equally so, EF.. but, i agreed with your premise of honesty.. and, i thought it prudent to state my position.. as much for my own sake as anyone else's.. <respectful bows>

Be well..

[Kaitain(UK)]

thanks a lot Buddy and Bob - info much appreciated

[Kaitain(UK)]

Bob - regarding group Standing Post: I find it lacks any benefit for anyone bar beginners due to the varied times that people need to work to to gain benefit. I do a short 5 minute session at the start of a lesson followed by about 10 minutes of silk-reeling exercises (some Chen, some CMC that I picked up).

I find I have taken the same approach as you with students - I explain why it is important to maintain the practice. Usually I tell them about my own experiences - I stopped standing post for a long period, believing that the form was sufficient in itself to build root and strength. Over time my form deteriorated to the point that I became very frustrated - I went and spoke to my instructor who said he'd been waiting for me to come to him. He told me I wasn't going to like it but the only way to improve and have something worthwhile was to work on my ZhangZhong. As soon as I started training that again, my form was fine.

I tried working a much higher posture today and did about 25 minutes (4 minutes per posture) - it is noticeably different to what I have been doing. I get the shaking but without any discomfort, and I also find myself able to work on my breathing more and feel more of what is going on. With the standing post my instructor gets me to do, it is a battle of endurance. Upon consideration i think that's because I have been going too deeply without guidance (I havent trained zhangzhong in front of him in years) - I guess he works that deeply because he has built up to it over many years. I'll have a chat with him next time I'm in for a lesson.

I'm going to run with the higher posture (I'm going to stick with 50/50 for now) for a few months and see how it goes.

[qiphlow]

my 2 pence:
standing has helped me to connnect my body, thus putting me on the path to MUCH better rooting than before i started standing. it has also helped me calm the mind, so i don't forget my forms when i have been lazy to practice. it has helped my push hands immensely--my listening/sticking/following is WAY better these days. i think that with daily practice, one would eventually develop a high degree of sensitivity to touch and of touch. on a general note, i've done the sporadic standing bit, and the dedicated standing bit, and i have to say that in addition to the benefit to my taijiquan, i notice that my entire life is more enhanced with standing--less stress, more energy, better mood overall. my routine for the past 4-4 1/2 years has been 25-40 min/day, unless i'm REALLY tired or i'm sick.
my strong opinion is that one gets more benefit with regular practice: 10 min/day is preferable to 60 min once per week...
i was taught not to change posture during the session, although i have heard of that approach. as far as depth of stance, i like to start high in my stance--i tend to sink as the session progresses.
keep at it--you'll see results with time. remember that the internal work takes years!

[cam]

I was wondering how the other styles of taijiquan view standing. In chen style it seems to be a cornerstone of the training and I find it to be most useful.
Correct posture, rooting and just learning how to relax(loosen, lenghten) the body. I've been practicing wuji steady for the last year and a half, up to 30 minutes a day and I still find it challenging, always feeling little tensions in my lower back and hips but it has helped.

[Surf Taut]

Remember that standing practice at it's core is isometrics. Properly done you should notice your strength and power increase over time. IMO, focus on this and don't get all wrapped up in the Qi cultivation thing.

I agree with Bob & Buddy in that 40 min. is max. When I trained in Yi Quan we would hold 8 postures a max of 5 min each. My teacher said that any longer was counter productive. One of the best write ups on standing practice I have seen is in the book Xing Yi Nei Gong - Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development edited & compiled by Dan Miller & Tim Cartmell. Tim does a chapter on standing practice which is really straight forward & easy to understand.

[jun_erh]

changing the postures evolves naturally I think. You get tired of the first posture but still have energy left.

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by cam
Correct posture, rooting and just learning how to relax(loosen, lenghten) the body.

There is more to Zhang Zhuan than "don't just stand there, do nothing!", although most people continue practicing Zhang Zhuan for years and years at this level without progressing.

Of course, while using ZZ to improve ones rooting, posture, isometric strength, relaxation etc is useful and important, the more important goal is to learn to move one's energy both inside and outside the body. However, very very few people were taught the method, so this "doing nothing" method became the norm as most people are doing it this way although it is not entirely correct.

Take the Xinyi San Ti stance for example, when practiced properly, not only does one developes the ability to withstand a strong push, but one would also develope the skills to "fire" someone out with incredible power without much effort.

Even the Wing Chun Tan Sau stance is immensely powerful, yet hardly anyone knows how to practice it properly, and turn it into a pure isometric conditioning exercise. Many people practices this great art for years without even knowing the energetics behind this most fundamental exercise.

The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few.

Cheers,
John

[cam]

Yikes! I really have to learn how to spell.
Now as I have already stated, I am a raw beginner, my skill level is just slightly past zero. In fact over the last year my ability to get formal training has been next to impossible due to work retraints though I have been practicing what I have learned daily. I can't wait for my teacher to tell me how badly I've messed things up:(
Now John, while I appreciate all comments, when someone says that they have the true secrets, the secrets that most everyone else are missing, my bull**** alarm just starts screaming.
I have seen demonstrations of Wu style, Eddie Wu's senior students, a high level Yang stylist and various Chen stylists and they were all equally impressive. I have also seen things that, well lets just say I keep a tight grip on my wallet

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by cam
Now John, while I appreciate all comments, when someone says that they have the true secrets, the secrets that most everyone else are missing, my bull**** alarm just starts screaming.


Hey, there is NO SECRET. There are people who are willing to teach you the real thing for next to nothing. The problems is, those people who really know their art are usually not good businessmen so they may not have big famous schools, so you may have to really dig around China to find them.

And because they go against the flow of popular methods, people won't even bother to learn from them. For example, the Tian Style Bagua is a very very powerful style of Bagua; but reject by popular public because it is different from the main stream. There is a good teacher in Sydney that teaches it for AUD$15 per 2hr lessons but he has only a small student numbers because he is not a good businessman, and he is doing it for love not fame and fortune.

If someone, one day, decided to teach you something that goes against what you have learned, are you going to accepted it with an open mind, or dismiss it as incorrect?

MacDonalds is the most popular burger restuarant in the world; but do they make the best burgers?

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by crimsonking
On the lucky few in ZZ - would you care to name some of the lucky few?

I don't want to sound biased, so I will only give examples outside the Yang Jian Hou tradition; and only the ones still living, less famous but **** powerful none the less:

Pan Yue (Xinyi) in Taiwan
Tian Ke Yan (Yin Yang Bagua Zhang) in Beijing
Tsui Seuong Tien (Wing Chun) in Hong Kong

I had personally met, and get "fired off" by TKY and TST, yet to meet PY, although a friend of mine had met him and was most impressed by PY.

If you have a chance, meet them, get hit/bounced by them and experience for yourself.

Cheers,
John

[cam]

How about Chen Xiaowang, Feng Zhiqiang, Zhu Tiancai........ would any of these individuals make your list?

[Buddy]

"The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few."

Oh brother.

[BAI HE]

What did you expect? Did you look at his site?

[Anjentao]

Interesting view on the total amount of time to practice the ZZ. Just to clarify, is the general concensus 40 min. total on each leg or 20 min. each leg for a total of 40 min.?

What about diminshing returns? Has anyone experienced adverse or negative results? If so, what were they?

Any other practices before or after ZZ that people do?


"The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few."

John, I take that to mean that if you are diligent in your practice and you practice properly, you can consider yourself lucky enough to experience the benefits of this training. Is that what you meant, or am I off base?


Best wishes!

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by cam
How about Chen Xiaowang, Feng Zhiqiang, Zhu Tiancai........ would any of these individuals make your list?

Yes, of course, these people are most powerful and I respect their abilities. I did not include them in the previous post because they are famous enough and everybody knows them already. I just wanted to point out a few powerfulful ones and less famous.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by Anjentao
John, I take that to mean that if you are diligent in your practice and you practice properly, you can consider yourself lucky enough to experience the benefits of this training. Is that what you meant, or am I off base?

Hello Anjentao,

If you practice well with the right methods, you WILL improve in skills and power very very quickly. In matter of months, not years. But of course, even with inefficient methods, you will still improve, but slowly.

My quest to seek knowledge had taken me to see famous and popular school who had basically given me nothing; had spent thousands of dollars on teachers who taught me "secret techniques" who were basically just trying to cheat me money. Had spent years of practice and hard work with only minimal improvement.

You see, there are teachers who would cheat you money by charging you a lot of money to teach you useless techniques; and there are ones who knows powerful techniques but would never teach you, and just tell you to "practice hard" and somehow you will get it miraculusely after 5 or 10 years. By then, when you realise you are not getting it, he had already made 5 years of money out of you and again you walk out with nothing.

I was lucky in the end to see some real powerful masters in China who shared many useful methods with me. I just do not want others to waste their time and money like I did many years ago and start improving their skill level quickly with proper methods.

So often, you offer free advice to people to help them overcome their inefficiencies, yet because your method is "different" from main stream you ended up with eggs on your face.

My advice is, if your teacher is genuine and nice and putting his/her heart into helping you and want to share everything he/she knows with you, stick with him/her! He/she is the type who you can trust and will always be there for you! But if your teacher does not care how you practice, does not constantly guide and correct you, does not want to answer your questions and just tell you to "practice", or charge you an arm and a leg for some secret techniques, then you know there is something wrong.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Thanks, agreed on TST.

Hello Crimsonking,

Yes, first time I met TST was almost 20yrs ago. He told me the Key to the Tan Sau Stance was to imagine the structure as a cone, and he kept on repeating "Gone Chut Hui" which means "rush it out". Of course, at that time, I could not understand how on one hand you are not moving, and yet you have to rush it out, and to rush "what" out. So, all those people who practice the stance for hours without "rushing it out" are not developing their power as efficiently.

It was only over the past 7-8yrs that I could understand what he meant. Luckily, I did not just dismiss it and forgot it.

Cheers,
John

[cam]

Hi John
Yes, when you talk about spending lots of money and more importantly time on the "secrets", only to later find out it was rubbish, it tends to make one sceptical. At least that's how I feel about it, it actually takes you further from your goal, as I had to spend time unlearning the nonsense that was drilled into me. Luckily for me I have had the opportunity to get on the right track, with the help of a high level Taijiquan sifu.:)

[Three Harmonies]

Secrets= one of two things.....
1- Teacher will milk you out of mucho $$, and most likely teach sh!t.

2- Teacher does not know something, is too proud too admit it, and too lame to find out and help their student.

The secret is training hard. Period. If you are told something else (I do not care how high level your teacher is) run like the wind, because you will waste your money, but worse yet time! I can earn money back. When time is lost....it is lost forever!
I agree with the addage (as does my teacher Tim Cartmell) with a max. of 20 min. Whether that is standing in San (10 minutes each leg) Ti, or Yi Chuan.
I am not sure what to think about some of these people who stand for hours a day, practice no striking drills or other similar drills, and then say they can fight better than anyone! I do not dispute their claims of power, but how do you become a better fighter without hitting something/one???? By just standing???? :rolleyes:

I also agree that one should not "just stand there doing nothing." Tim explains it like this.... imagine a crazy nut job, standing just out of reach with a giant axe waiting to cut off your head. As soon as he moves you attack! That is the type of Yi (intent) one should have when standing. Otherwise you are just....standing. :)

My two cents...
Cheers
Jake :D

[Anjentao]

I have read several books (like Sun Lu Tang's Study of Form Mind-Boxing/Jerry Alan Johnson's Essence of Internal Martial Arts/B.K. Frantzis' Power of Internal Martial Arts) that all elude to standing practice being up to an hour (San Ti Shi posture).

I got the impression that meant total, so I started to gradually build up my time to 20min/side in a San Ti posture (with a slight difference in the placement of the posterior arm/palm). My entire stance keeping takes an 1hr and 15 min with stretching before and centering after. I feel that this amount of time is beneficial and have not experienced any negative effects.

On Tim's Discussion board (www.shenwu.com) you can do a search for "Standing Practice" and find a discussion on this topic where Tim writes:
"Since walking the circle while holding postures is referred to as "Xing Zhuang" (moving post) and stance keeping is "Zhan Zhuang" (standing post) it's apparent that the Chinese view the two practices as of the same training methodology. Personally, I think there is benefit to practicing both methods. In most schools of Ba Gua Zhang, although emphasis is placed on the Xing Zhuang, there is also at least one or two stationary postures that are practiced. In the Gao style, practitioners often stand in the "Guard" posture, "Xian Tian Zhuang" or Pre-Heaven Posture (the basic circle walking position) as well as a variation of the San Ti Posture of Xing Yi Quan, called "Hou Tian Zhang" or the Post-Heaven Posture. I think that spending some time on stationary postures is very beneficial no matter which style is practiced.

Xing Zhuang cultivates the ability to hold the upper body in a unit (correct alignment) and to focus the intent through a particular posture while in constant motion around an opponent.
Zhan Zhuang cultivates the same type of power while emphasizing stability. So basically the two variations of post training emphasize stability and focus of power and intent while staionary and while in motion."
Also:
"As beneficial as stance keeping is, there is a limit. My Yi Quan teacher said that 40 minutes of standing was very good, an hour was the maximum for beneficial returns, and that if you had time to stand longer than that, you need to go out and get a job."

He also clarifies that is should be 40Min. total.

Has anyone tried different sets of standing? If so, have you felt a benefit from it? I am curious because I have recently started to do some Yi Chuan (25 min) in the afternoon and meditation (15 min) at night in addition to San Ti (1:15) in the morning. Just curious...

Happy training!

[Surf Taut]

Anjentao,

Are you studying Yi Chuan with Tim? This is where I received my standing/Yi Chuan training. We did 8 different positions for 5 min each standing. Then other moving exercises called "testing power" [shir li?] and mud stepping [mocu bu?]. Tim has some videos of his teacher, Gao, demonstrating some things informally. Pretty cool stuff.

[Anjentao]

Surf Taut,

No, but I wish I was studying Yi Chuan with Tim!

Actually I have very little Yi Chuan training so far. I have gotten that information in bits and peices and combined it with the details/principles I have gotten for standing practice.

There's a Jerry Alan Johnson book (listed above) that also details eight main postures with a ready posture at the beginning and end. I imagine it's very similar to what you practice.

I'm sure over time I will learn more of the Yi Chuan.

Practice. Patience. Persistance!

Happy training!

[Buddy]

How do you know about Gao style?

[Surf Taut]

How do you know about Gao style?

Buddy, I'm assuming that is directed at my reference to Gao above. Tim Cartmell's YiChuan teacher is named Gao Liu De. Tim taught a class in YiChuan for a brief period of time. Not to be confused with Gao Yi Sheng style BaGua which I learned from him also.

[Anjentao]

I have been reading a lot about Yi Chuan/Dadengchaun on various web sites. I have also seen quite a few books available on the subject. Does anyone have any suggestions as far as well written books go?

[Three Harmonies]

Tim Cartmells Xing Yi Nei Gong book is the best reference on standing. I have all of the ones in English, and Tim makes it very simple and has a down to earth style (just like his teachings).
Cheers
Jake :D

[RickMatz]

Websites

www.yiquan.com
www.yiquan.com.pl
http://www.tapmax.com/yq/index.html
www.i-chuan.net Best articles on practice on the internet

Forums

http://www.yiquan.com.pl/support/
http://www.tapmax.com/yq/forum/index.php
www.tomabey.com
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dachengdao/

My own contribution:

http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/martarts/yiquan01.html

I've been standing regularly for a little over 4 years now. I find that when I train regularly, my mental state is equal to whatever challeges arise. I've also found that my reaction time is better. I can't really say that I'm faster, or there is a sensation that everything has slowed down, but I just seem to have more time.

What has worked well for me is to work on one posture for a week or so. Standing anywere from 30 minutes (or whatever I can get in, if I'm busy or travelling), to over 70 minutes (at which point my feet tend to fall asleep and I fall down). One combat posture, and one shi li exercise. The next week go on to something else.

The first goal in standing is to relax. After becoming relaxed, it's important to work with visualizations. Visualization may not be the best word. I know of people who try to "see" the balloon, tree, springs, or whatever. It is more like "feel as though you are holding a balloon." The difference is subtle, but important.

Best Regards,

Rick

[qiphlow]

EXACTLY! i agree 100%.

[Elliott_Hall]

Just a point of clarification, Zhanzhuang practice alone does not equate to Yiquan practice. Alot of people are familiar with Han XingYuen's 8 postures, but they represent a small percentage of the yiquan postures out there, and in that an even smaller percentage of the total Yiquan practice. They're great postures, don't get me wrong, and a very important practice that I would urge any martial artist to investigate, but by themselves, they aren't Yiquan.

[RickMatz]

To further expand on Elliot's post - Zhan Zhuang + <insert martial art> isn't YiQuan either. YiQuan consists of a complete body of exercises, one of which is ZZ.

[Palmer]

To be honest when practicing Yiquan I'm not actually looking for a "style." I realize that there may be dozens of standing postures that are practiced within the community of Yiquan but I do not believe they are all necessary to practice Yiquan. I always felt it was about concepts.

[Elliott_Hall]

Its quite true that the specific postures don't necessarily constitute Yiquan practice; what does are the seven parts; zhanzhuang, shi li, fa li, mocabu, shi sheng, tuishou and sanshou. What does is things like various mojin and structure testing. I practice Beng Chuan, is that now my XingYi practice? I sometimes practice Chicken Steps, am I practicing Ziranmen? No, I'm practicing a part of Ziranmen. I'm practicing a piece of Xingyi (a piece by way of Taikiken, so there is some symmetry there). I'm not saying don't stand, very much the opposite, stand, please; :D and I'm definately not saying don't cross-pollinate your practice, just be aware that its a tiny piece that you're practicing.

This kinda brings me more to the real point of mentioning this: just standing isn't Yiquan. Why? well there is a Wang XiangZhai quote I like that makes it fairly clear. "In Yiquan, zhanzhuang is most basic, but shi li is most important". You really can't do Yiquan zhanzhuang without doing shi li. You will lack the basic internal understanding of developing hunyuanli and mojin feelings through zhanzhuang practice without it. Its critical.

[Palmer]

Honestly depending on what complete means to someone I can safely say that I do not practice any style completly. In my Yiquan practice I only practice a few postures but the important concepts of expressing outward in a minumum of six directions and using "opposite force" in every posture and stretching the frame as well as other concepts are what is important for me ( this is also not including all the mental imagery that is utilized.) My teacher doesnt use a whole lot of Chinese terminology so I am not familiar with the term shi Li.

[Elliott_Hall]

Honestly depending on what complete means to someone I can safely say that I do not practice any style completly. In my Yiquan practice I only practice a few postures but the important concepts of expressing outward in a minumum of six directions and using "opposite force" in every posture and stretching the frame as well as other concepts are what is important for me ( this is also not including all the mental imagery that is utilized.)

I've said my piece. Whatever works for you.


My teacher doesnt use a whole lot of Chinese terminology so I am not familiar with the term shi Li.

Shi li = seeking force/strength. The moving part of Yiquan. Starts with arm movements that lead to full body movements and are later combined with mocabu to eventually form part of jianwu. Its where you find the opposing forces and directional forces that lead to hunyuanli, or 'six-directional force' (I still think 'omni-directional force' migh be a better translation though).

[Palmer]

I've said my piece. Whatever works for you.



Shi li = seeking force/strength. The moving part of Yiquan. Starts with arm movements that lead to full body movements and are later combined with mocabu to eventually form part of jianwu. Its where you find the opposing forces and directional forces that lead to hunyuanli, or 'six-directional force' (I still think 'omni-directional force' migh be a better translation though).


Thank you for that translation. And your right its all about what works for you. :D

[Anjentao]

Rick,

Thanks for the suggestions on websites/boards. I knew of a few of them from www.chinafrominside.com and have started digging into some of the others.

Elliot,

Thanks for your input as well.

Both of you make valid comments and clear points on the practice.

I soak up as much info as I can and it either validates something I am doing (like the archive on Rick's site) or it adds a peice that I might think about or try in my own practice.

I have been doing stance keeping for about three and a half years, which for me, has been long enough to realize the benefits and know that the continuous training will only improve these benefits.

I think it's clear that only Yi Quan is Yi Quan, much in the way that only Xing Yi is Xing Yi, etc. and as far as "cross-pollination" I agree with Elliot in that these are small peices of something that in itself is a complete system.

I practice Ba Gua and within the training we are taught standing practice.
IMO the standing practice that I have maintained has made a significant difference in my ability to practice everything else. I am sold on it! Obviously, I can only practice what I have been taught and try to perfect it.


Thanks again for the links and info...



Practice, Patience, Persistance

[Anjentao]

A few questions have come to mind that I would be interested in hearing some opinions on.

If you do not live near a Yi Quan teacher, are the seminars really worth the money? Obviously, it depends on who is leading the seminar, but even with the ideal instructor, would it be benificial enough to justify the cost?

I have gathered that learning something like Yi Quan from a book would be nearly impossible-I, for one, would not argue that point. However, if previously trained in IMA would this make the practices/concepts any easier to grasp?
I would be interested to hear from anyone who has studied an IMA and moved to Yi Quan practice-particularly about the similarities/differences.

In the study of Kung Fu, I learned of Ba Gua, Tai Chi and Xing Yi and wanted a deeper understanding-In the study of Ba Gua I have learned of Yi Quan and now I would like a deeper understanding of this...

Best regards,

[RickMatz]

Where are you? There are people practicing across the country of greater and lesser skill, who could get you started. If you want to send me a PM, I'll try to point you in the right direction.

[Anjentao]

Rick,

I tried to PM you with no luck. A message pops up saying you do not accept emails? Maybe I did something wrong...

I live in Denver, so if you have any info, you can PM me or post it here. Either way works for me.

Thanks!

[BAI HE]

In Denver?

Go to Emptyflower.com and look up the member "Iwalkthecircle".
There is a hotbed of Gao style practitioners and SC (through John Wang Laoshi)
happening there.

There also may be a group forming through one of the Taiwan Yizong Seniors happening in the fall.

[RickMatz]

Bai He is right. There's good BGZ to be found in Colorado. To me, it's more important to find a great teacher, no matter what style he teaches.

As for YiQuan, I don't know of any teachers or study groups in your area, however, with a solid background in stance from BGZ, you could certainly profit from seminars when they come your way.

It wouldn't hurt to keep an eye on some of the websites and forums I've indicated to keep up with what's going on in the Yiquan world, and who may be coming to your area (or to a place you might travel to). For example, Fong Ha was in Iowa of all places not too long ago, which wouldn't be a bad ride from Colorado, if you really wanted to learn.

Good luck in your training.

[BAI HE]

If you do these "seminars", make sure you engage the teacher respectfully and ask a lot of questions.

I see so many people who get awestruck at high level skills and turn into wallflowers and walk away without seizing the opportunity to really pick their brains.
I see so many seminars where the "Master" is rather bored. Enthusiasm breeds enthusiasm. If you pay your money, don't expect something to be handed to you.
Come prepared with a list of questions and ask respectfully . It is rather discouraging for some of these people fly over 11 hours to try and share this stuff.
Most of the ones I've met, don't do it for the money at all. They do it to meet people like you and I.

Again, PARTICIPATE.... Don't waste your time or theirs.

One of the greats I met once said:

" They ask the wrong questions and they don't ask enough of them."

[Three Harmonies]

I am no master, but I do teach here in Albuquerque, NM. which is not terribly close, but not terribly far from Denver. I teach Yi Chuan, Shanxi Xing Yi, and a bit of Taiji. You are always welcome if interested.
Cheers
Jake Burroughs

[Buddy]

"Uncle" Bill DeThouars and his seniors are out that way as well, teaching Kuntao Silat.

[spiraler]

standing meditation is similar to a horse stance which is much more rigorous, stnding meditation aids in relaxation and natural balance freeflowing in movement and choosing the natural path of less resistance. an excellent way to build strength(not power as much) is to modify reps into a static ex.(lift and hold)but start with very light weight first(even gravity is enough resistance for a static excercise) the emphasis is on the amount of time held suspended, building willpower, and resistance to muscular fatigue it is a workout for your mind as well as your body and i dare not leave out the most crucial component BREATHING!try to stay calm as you exert. do not overstrain yourself its not necessary, always try to relax. to build power though you should focus on lifting heavier weight in small bursts or reps this method is commonly used by powerlifters and will aid in your ability to lift heavier weight. static excersises bring out the full potential energy of your existing muscles. i recommend training in both, but really stress static postures, if you really wish to improve learn a set of static postures. hung gar uses them, i have a system that works well for beginners just holler.

[RickMatz]

As described, this is a much different type of standing than YiQuan uses.

[Anjentao]

Thanks to all for the suggestions. That definitely gives me a lot of options.

I am starting to look into everything as I have time.

Happy training!!!



Practice, Patience, Persistance

[iWalkTheCircle]

In Denver?

Go to Emptyflower.com and look up the member "Iwalkthecircle".
There is a hotbed of Gao style practitioners and SC (through John Wang Laoshi)
happening there.

There also may be a group forming through one of the Taiwan Yizong Seniors happening in the fall.


hey thanks for the ad....


we crossed hands yesterday at 5:30am~8am, a very nice workOut.....


we had fun.... i got to practice some sc throws on him too....



cheers,
JH =)

[Anjentao]

I'll second all of that! It was very nice to practice with someone who knows other styles. Very rewarding!

Thanks for the hook up Bai He.

[BAI HE]

De nada guys.

Glad you had a good workout.

[YiQuanOne]

Looks like their used to be some people on this forum that were aware of the benifits of standing!.

I wonder what happened to them?.

[SPJ]

yes. most of them are also posting in emptyflower

now rumsoakedfist.

:)

[GeneChing]

Today, well actually yesterday, was my seminar with my Shifu Shi Decheng on Luohan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?44742-Shi-Decheng&p=1315653#post1315653), which was great (gonna be so sore but the endorphins haven't quite worn off). Now I'm trembling with qi. This used to happen to me in my youth. The fire qi gets overstimulated - or at least that's the tcm explanation. I'm physically exhausted after a brutal 2 hour workout but I can NOT sleep.

I've always suffered from insomnia (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71484-Insomnia). Sifu Wing Lam diagnosed my sleep issues and it's connection to my training decades ago and he had this weird meditation solution of looking to the horizon in zhangzhuan (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?33379-Zhang-Zhuan-and-martial-arts) while tucking my chin. Sometimes that helps. I haven't had it so bad in years. I'm totally tweakin, as if I just quaffed a triple espresso. It was good to feel that Shaolin qi come through me again but tonight, I'm paying for it. Fortunately, I have little to do tomorrow beyond recover.