taiji today

[SevenStar]

continued from a previous thread:



Originally posted by SevenStar

Is that due to the ignorance of people here, or how it was taught to them? Somewhere along the line, someone had to have only been interested in the health benefits - either that or someone wasn't shown the martial side. Either way, it then caught on like wildfire. Taiji is taught for health in many countries, not just this one...



Originally posted by shirkers1

taiji like mantis has more than one branch. Some schools teach the martial aspect of the art as well as the health. But publicity has giving taiji a title of health. Just like wushu has given mantis a title of flowery exagerated movements that look good but have no martial merit. The practitioners of the art and not a form collector know it's not and respect what mantis has to offer as a combat effective complete system.

A good MAist can see that it's combative, taiji and mantis that is. Just because taiji or bagua styles move slow doesn't mean it's not tactically sound for combat. Good kung fu is like a machine engine, if you get caught up in it's gears it's going to eat you alive and grind you up. Just like a good grappler manipulates once he gets a hold of someone.


yeah, I know there is more than one branch of taiji - wu, sun, chen, yang, chang, etc. But the majority of places you go teach what? yang. why? who popularized it? there was an obvious demand. Why are the combat aspects not taught? surely, you can't think that it's because of the "ignorance of people in this country" as ED said. Yang lu chan trained in chen style, correct? I doubt that he would've taught his sons and not have shown him the combat applications. So, when did yang style begin to focus mainly on health and why?

you're right, a good MAist can see that it's combative. However, the good MAist may not be able to extrapolate the technique applications on his own, much less a poor MA or the avg joe who knows nothing and is looking to train... moving slow is fine, and I don't question that it's not tactically sound. However, you aren't going to be able to use it properly if you are always practicing slowly.

Back to what ED said, How do the current state of taiji and people's perceptions of it AROUND THE WORLD relate to the ignorance of people in America?

[German Bai Lung]

Seven Star: If I am not mistaken, the whole problem with non combative TaiJi starts in PR China. They changed it to somewhat of 24 moves and proclaimed it as good for your health. After that it was going his victory-way around the world.

Now only a few teach and practice TaiJi like it was teached long ago. Here in Germany only a handful of people knows the combative way of TaiJi and can use it so.

my 2 €cent...

[shirkers1]

7 star thanks for moving the convo.

I personally don't know why it is has been more popularized (is that even a word?) as a health driven art. I don't train it and I never have. I do know that there are some guys in the states here that have the combat abilities and will put you on your ass when it gets down to push hands. Which as we all know is just that sensitivity in grappling range, they will manipulate you and send you flying. So it's slow until the explosion. It's not meant to be done 100 miles an hour like you say it has to be to be done right.

Now as for the style I train and can speak more in depth on, everyone has to start somewhere. You can't come out of the box going mach 10 and expect to perform the tactic properly. You have to start slow learn the mechanics. After that you can pick up the pace and "control" (being a key word here). If you are quick to rush the movements while training you will over expose yourself down the road, and leave yourself open for counters if the opponent is worth his grain of salt. I don't care if you or any other ground fighter sees me teaching a "beginner" student a tactic slow and in a controlled situation thinking it's wrong. I'd rather that student have the proper technique engrained in his fiber. Progressing his speed, timing, and control as he gets more comfortable with the movements. It's the way I was taught from boxing to mantis and I'll pass that on.

When dealing with striking, if you come too fast out of the gate all you end up with is poor quality technique and an injured partner. We're not talking about holding hands and hugging each other on a cushy mat.

So are you to say a boxer can't fight? A boxer learns proper mechanics on a bag etc. Moves to ring experience, with protection. With so much more in between but I'm not going into that. But he doesn't just get thrown in the ring and told to go all out without any training. That training is a progression, just like the progression in the way we train. I apply my boxing background to the way we train, so I can speak for that as well.

[SevenStar]

I didn't say you had to go fast all the time - I said if you never go fast you will have trouble when you have to use it for real.


As for boxing, no, you will not be sparring right off the bat. You should be within about 3 months though. And during the three months prior, you will be drilling with a partner, at his own pace, so you are really getting down the timing, distancing, etc. you will also really get hit if you mess up. you have a coach there that will correct you. You learn mechanics at the same time that you are drilling , and later at the same time that you are fighting - the learning process is faster that way. I know somone who spent several months learning one punch in xingyi. I can't see how such a method is practical in any way. I know not all MA are like that, that's just the most vivd example that comes to mind at the present...

[Brad]

Seven Star: If I am not mistaken, the whole problem with non combative TaiJi starts in PR China. They changed it to somewhat of 24 moves and proclaimed it as good for your health. After that it was going his victory-way around the world.
I disagree 100%. Take a look at that Wu vs. White Crane fight. IMO, that quality is about the norm for people labled as traditional taiji practictioners(heck, that was a wu style lineage holder, if I'm not mistaken!) I doubt that had anything at all to do with the 24 form. Basically, blaming the 24 form is a scape goat some traditionalists use.

Don't get me wrong, I HAVE met at least three people who could fight with taiji quan. Two of them teach the 24 form(one ONLY learned the 24 form and practiced it for years), and the third was a traditionalist from Taiwan(one of the Wu Tan people) who encouraged me to keep practicing it and actually liked the form DESPITE having personal issues with my teacher. The guy from Taiwan I find really interesting, because he hadn't been teaching openly until fairly recently and is somewhat unfamiliar with the modern wushu vs. traditional wushu trashing that goes on, so didn't really posses many ingraned biases. Anyway, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 24 form if you practice the techniques as intended. The issue is with how a lot of people were taught. Being such a popular form and one of the first short forms(thus very easy to memorize) it was passed along quite a bit in book, video, siminars, college classes etc. rather than learned from a qualified teacher with the intent of teaching everything about it(line drills, applications, push hands, etc). A number of other styles had the same problem... look at the Chen Man Cheng style for example. You'd be hard pressed to find someone teaching this as a martial art unless you knew all the details about how he taught each of his students. 24 form is kind of like that, but with an even more watered down talent pool. I think the same goes for Yang Cheng Fu, and Wu styles too.

Anyway, it's more about the training methods, than what form you practice.

I love traditional taiji, though.

[Brad]

I also disagree with shirker's comparison of the 24 form with the wushu mantis competition form. Main differences:

1.24 form is not "exagerated". I think some moves are even smaller than the Yang Cheng Fu form.
2.Mantis isn't really good for combat because mantis basics aren't taught along with it. 24 form has single movement drills, push hands, standing practice, etc.

I think that the whole a good martial artists would automatically know what's good or not arguement is completely untrue too. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so much fighting within the kungfu comunity! Perfectly good martial artists are allways arguing amongst themselves about everything from stance hieght, to more abstract discussions on "qi".

[Brad]

Now, my opinion as to why taiji is mostly thought of as a health art...

1.It's very good for your health! Taiji can be a very good moving meditation exercise and can greatly help people from a health standpoint(more so than a lot of martial arts).
2.A lot of people just aren't that interested in the fighting part of the art, and I do think it works a lot better for my health than some of the un-martial arts related qigong stuff would.
3.With it being good for health and exotic, it's easy to market to non-Chinese. I don't exactly what makes it so popular in China, but I think the fact that it's good for health, and has an established history in Chinese society(founded by a general or taoist monk, taught to royality, being entrenched in Chinese philosophy, etc.) makes it more interesting to them than some new exercise program would.

Taiji's been promoted for its health benifits for a long time, even by some of the original masters like Yang Cheng Fu and Sun Lu Tang.

[shirkers1]

Brad

I never said anything about a 24 form I don't even know what it is...... I hope I'm just reading you wrong but did you just say mantis isn't combative? Which style of mantis are you speaking of? If you are talking about wushu mantis forms then I agree. Please clarify for me what you are talking about.


You are out of your mind if you think a good fighter (MA) shouldn't be able to look at how another person moves or see applications in movements from a hand set. Either you simply just don't know what you are talking about or you are out of your mind. Which one is it? I know I can look at a lot of peoples forms and see that there isn't any direct application to fighting at all and I wonder if they even know why they are doing the tactic in the set at all.

[German Bai Lung]

Brad: I never said, that the 24 form was not for combat. I said the form was the Beginning of the teaching of TaiJi all over the world! That´s a difference.
I agree that people who train the form correctly and care about ALL the TaiJi elements can gain fighting skills.

But most of the people who teach TaiJi didn´t even know the right applications! :(

[sayloc]

I think most people do the tai chi for health.

I dont see a problem with that.

I dont see a problem with mantis for health.

Isnt that why you learn to fight anyway, for health? So no one can hurt you or kill you? Isnt that for health?

I think it is more important to train for a healthy body.
Being over weight, high cholesterol, heart problems and mental problems are a much bigger threat that someone attacking you (In the US that is).


An instructor, whether tai chi or mantis should understand the application and have a fighting background. That Instructor should not promote a student to an instructor level with out that knowledge.

That is why I think there are many systems being watered down.

You can attack my post now.

Have a good day

[Buddy]

Chen Weiming, in his book (1920-1930s?), and I paraphrase, "many people know taji as a superior martial art but few know of it's health sustaining qualities."
The Wu in the vs Bai He fight was Wu Gongyi, son of the founder of Wu style, Wu Jianquan.

[Brad]

Wow, I screwed up A LOT in my posts :( That's what I get for posting long after my usual bedtime :D

I owe shirkers1 and GBL appologies as somehow I combined both your posts into something neither one of you were saying :confused: Everything is a lot clearer this morning :p


I hope I'm just reading you wrong but did you just say mantis isn't combative? Which style of mantis are you speaking of? If you are talking about wushu mantis forms then I agree. Please clarify for me what you are talking about.
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant the modern wushu competition mantis isn't combative :p I assume mantis can work just fine for fighting(like most other legit martial arts I've come across), though I haven't seen any skilled mantis folk going at it yet. There's basically two people here that teach mantis, one pretty much sticks to forms competition type stuff, and the other is primarilly a taiji/baji guy(the dude from Taiwan I mentioned in one of my posts).


You are out of your mind if you think a good fighter (MA) shouldn't be able to look at how another person moves or see applications in movements from a hand set. Either you simply just don't know what you are talking about or you are out of your mind. Which one is it? I know I can look at a lot of peoples forms and see that there isn't any direct application to fighting at all and I wonder if they even know why they are doing the tactic in the set at all.
You'd think people would be able to, but it just doesn't seem that way... I think it's usually more of a case that people often refuse to see certain things due to ingrained predjudices rather than being "unable" to see what's going on in a form. I should have worded my statement differently... Just because a good fighter(which is pretty subjective in the first place) says someone or something isn't good, doesn't make it true.

[Brad]

An instructor, whether tai chi or mantis should understand the application and have a fighting background. That Instructor should not promote a student to an instructor level with out that knowledge.

That is why I think there are many systems being watered down.

You can attack my post now.

Have a good day
I think any system in which info is givin away publicly is going to be watered down in a way. As long as the info is out there, someone is going to try and use if for a profit. It wouldn't be that hard for someone with a little bit of martial arts(or even dance!) experience to teach themselves a bunch of mantis forms off the internet and open up their own school. I think the most people can do now days is make sure they keep detailed records of what they taught to who(to better be able to expose fraud and redirct people to quality training), and make sure people know their stuff before promoting them(like what you said).

[shirkers1]

PHEWWW (whipes forehead)

Brad you were killing me with that post... I thought I was loosing MY mind... LOL Okay all a big missunderstanding.

Well you have one guy in ohio that I KNOW is the real deal, being that I'm from that school I have first hand experience. I do know what you are talking about though. There are a few mantis schools there that are complete nonsense. I don't know about worthington but in the akron, cleveland, columbus area there are quite a few mantis schools. The ones associatied with my teacher are worth looking into. You will see quality northern mantis.

With the whole seeing a good fighter move thing. That is the point I'm making, there are fewer people out there that know what they are doing than there are that don't know what they are doing. Whether they think they can or not. The proof is in the pudding. You sit a group of fighters down and watch a fight. You will see all of them moving there heads and twitching just like they were in the fight. It's engrained in their every fiber. These people can look at another person and how they move and know that the person has something to offer. Or look at a form and know that they are just going through the motions. I know I can, and I know some very good MAist that have it. I also know a lot of people out there don't. But I'm not putting these people down, I'm just saying this is something they need to find within themselves and think about it. These are questions people should be asking themselves. It's part of being a mantis practitioner as well as any good fighter. The ability to size up an opponent.

[GLW]

" There is a reason it is called Supreme Ultimate Fist you know. "

No..it IS NOT called that. You are using a common incorrect translation of the characters. While you CAN take each character and translate them literally to get Supreme Ultimate Fist, that is not how it translates idiomatically...which is the way things are translated that gives the most accurate meaning.

You combine Taiji (tai ji) into one concept. The Taiji is the concept or representation of Yin and Yang. Quan, while literally FIST, in this context is used to denote FIST method or Martial Art Style or approach.

So, the more accurate English translation is "The Style of Martial Art based upon Yin and Yang".





" But, it must be practiced in the right way to obtain those benefits. Even if your goal is not self-defense. In addition, taiji principle, because of it Taoist philosphy origins, can apply to dealing with conflict and force in other areas of life. "

Quite so....



"As for the government sponsored forms. A lot of that is political. Most of the Taiji experts chosen by the government were not really the best at Taiji. It was political wrangling and left many real high-level masters out of the process simply because they didn't have the right connection or were seen as a threat in some way. Many Taiji masters were jailed by the communists. Also, being the government Wushu expert was a prized position. "


And you base this on WHAT information? While there WERE people that were imprisoned and killed in the PRC that were Martial Arts Masters, the ones having this done when the 24 Posture was created were typically those that had exhibited some reactionary or anti-government leanings. The group of people that did 24 were highly regarded. This continued up until a couple of years before the Cultural Revolutions. For example, in 1960, noted Grandmaster Wang Ziping was the head instructor for the first demonstration team to perform outside of China (Burma). He and others were also invited to state dinners and demonstrations for people like Mao and Chou Enlai....

Now, when the Cultural Revolution started, everything stopped. Practicing was outlawed and many were purged...many died. But that was 1966 - 1976.

[qiphlow]

in my school, we learn and teach for both health benefits and combat application. i believe that the big problem is that taijiquan is percieved outside of the MA community as something that old people and hippies do on sundays in the parkso as to get in touch with their feelings or whatever new age concept is floating around. consequently, as a martial art, taijiquan in the usa is not as popular as some of the more flashy, high kickin' board bustin', styles that are around. we in america are very reluctant to dig deeper and spend the time it would take to really learn the internal styles for combat. what's easier to market? in my opinion, one can make tons more money (if that's what you're after) by teaching a "take my seminar and be an unstoppable fighter!" class than by teaching taijiquan as a purely combat art. i hope this changes, but that would mean a change in the cultural thinking of america and the western world in general, which probably won't happen overnite!

[bamboo_ leaf]

(we in america are very reluctant to dig deeper and spend the time it would take to really learn the internal styles)

I hope your only speaking for your self. I think many known and unknown people in the west might have something to say about that.

I think the state of taiji today is as its always been. Available for the select few who have the time and drive to go to the deeper depths of the art. Same as in any art form.

I have some trouble understanding what all the fuss is about with the old people in the parks. Their practice is inline with their lives and needs. Something wrong with that?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

One of the profound beauties of Taiji is its diversity.. it is a combat art, it is a health maintence art, it is a meditation art, it is a "feel good" dance, it is a philosophy, it is a way of living that doesn't conflict with "most" religious beliefs.. With good marketing Taiji could become the Art of the masses, it can offer something for everyone.. Heck, i even use it to help couples work through issues.. i get them doing a smooth and soft "flat-circle" push-hands set and ask them to start talking about their issues.. and when they feel the other's energies resist or break away they will know they are addressing a sensitive issue.. of course, then it is their job to figure out how to deal with it, but.. the energies don't deceive, there's nowhere to hide..

One of its biggest problems is the elitist attitudes that desire to exclude other aspects of Taiji in favor of a favored perspective.. Taiji is "only" this or "only "that".. when, if we were paying attention, we could get much more interest and much more attention (research) and that would offer all of us more potential for any particular area of interest that we choose to focus on..

Taiji is alive and well.. still in its infancy in this country (USA), but with a potential that is remarkable.. Here in Central Florida we have a Taiji Club that meets Once or more a month and students/teachers from several different schools/styles get along well and promotes greater awareness in our area.. http://taichi.meetup.com/21/events/3463643/.. This is a great way to start a local group..

Be well..

[unixfudotnet]

Master Yang Cheng Fu slowed it down, took out high kicks and all that for the empirical court. They did not want to get sweaty and all that, they wanted to learn a martial art. This is how it was explained to me/read in "Mastering Yang Taijiquan" by Master Yang Cheng Fu, please excuse anything I may have wrong, I lent out the book.

Seems even the masters have taught it as only/mostly for health reasons... It isn't taught like that at the school I attend, yet I am not developed enough to use the martial aspects enough anyways, heh.

Like anything else, it all depends on the teacher, and his students :)

A downside of martial arts schools is that anyone can just open one up and claim to be this and that. Many people will never stick with it long enough to use Taijiquan to any real degree of martial ability anyways, most people stick around for a few months and then disappear. I could understand that if teachers only held out knowledge to these students and only taught the whole deal to devoted students.

The loudest voice of a subject is not always the majority voice of it either.

There are a ton of people out there that practice their taijiquan every day, silently doing their own thing, and just going about their business. Many people like it like this.

I know definitely more than one person to state that the internet is one of the worst things to happen to martial arts.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I don’t agree with your premise. To think that the Manchu princes were lazy is also an error. the story about why or what YCF changed is a marketing ploy repeated by people who have something to sell, or dont really understand the art.


(I know definitely more than one person to state that the internet is one of the worst things to happen to martial arts.)

you use it well

[unixfudotnet]

I love the internet. I am a programmer. Using the internet and tcp/ip is my job :)

I think the internet is one of the best things to happen to mankind.

[unixfudotnet]

Also again, I may be wrong on all I know of the history of Taijiquan. I am certianly no expert, and misunderstand things that are said to me at times :)

[bamboo_ leaf]

Some history http://users.cybercity.dk/~ccc6881/history.html

(Not long after, Lu Chan was invited by Wu Lu Ching, a distant relative, to teach his martial arts in the capital of Beijing. Wu Lu Ching was a government official of Emperor
Tao Kuang.

Upon arriving in the capital, Lu Chan was a guest at the home of a wealthy businessman named Mr. Zhang. Mr. Zhang’s business was small at first, but later became very large and prosperous. Their organization also included instruction in various types of martial arts training.

The first occasion to meet the Zhang family was
during a banquet in which everyone was to perform his respective martial art. One of the heads of the Zhang family saw the thin body of Yang Lu Chan, and as an insult, placed
Lu Chan behind an ordinary martial artist preparing to demonstrate. After Yang Lu Chan performed his style, Mr. Zhang asked if the “.Cotton Fist of Yang Lu Chan could actually defeat an opponent. Lu Chan replied by saying that except for bronze, iron, and rock, his fist could defeat anything with flesh and blood.

Consequently, the man asked if Lu Chan would take a challenge from him. Lu Chan agreed without hesitation not only to
take a challenge from this man but also from anyone else at the banquet. Following, the guests went out into the garden court to witness the contest. When the contest first began, a martial arts master came running toward Lu Chan as fierce as a tiger. As the two met, Lu Chan raised his arms and the man flew back several meters through the air.

Immediately following, another master came up and challenged Lu Chan. Without completing one technique, the man was thrown back several meters onto the ground. After seeing this, the others did not dare challenge the skills of Yang Lu Chan)

Another point that is often overlooked is that the term taiji originated with the yang style which was named after the yang family. YLC did not call his art chen style, it was called a number of different names before the term taiji was applied to it. His style was distinct enough from the chen style that it was and is known in its own right.

If we take taiji as a philosophical idea expressed in a martial art it matters little what it looks like or who originated it. the only point would be if it followed the taiji ideas.

To state as some that chen style is the first or oldest taiji style I would say is incorrect, as it also would be included in the family of arts that are now called taiji at a later date. This does not take away anything from chen style taiji or any style of taiji. There all expressions of an idea handed down to us from the great masters of the past

[bamboo_ leaf]

What many seem to allude to is weather taiji works as it did in the past. To this I would say yes based on my own experience, but as in the past only very few really reach the point where they can use it.

Many talk of proving the style, and why we don’t see many exponents as in the stories of the past. My own thoughts on this are that just as the Gracias and some other more modern arts. Taiji was proven by the past masters many times over.

The exponents of it today, the ones said to be high level know it works. Its self evident, weather their famous or unknown, people seek them out. If you meet some one good in taiji it should be very different.