Reality Check part 1 [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

sihing

11-02-2004, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by YongChun
If the goal is to beat Thai boxers or Western boxers then don't waste your time with Wing Chun because Wing Chun has forms and Chi sau and theories. You don't need those for that. If my goal was to beat the Thais then I would do what Dekker did. It worked for him. He didn't study Wing Chun.

Ray

Not sure if your trying to be sarcastic or not Ray, but I don't agree with your statement. Can a Wing Chun guy beat a Muay Thai guy, yes. Can a Muay Thai guy beat a Wing Chun guy, yes. I don't think we are talking about specific people against one another of different styles. On another forum I'm involved with a thread about how good Muay Thai is as a fighting/self defense system. Most all the people are posting about how awesome MT is and showing clips of great fighters using MT as their system. I went on there and told them that IMO WC is superior for a variety of reasons, and they told that Vanderlai Salva was the best fighter in the world and he uses MT so it must be the best, lol. So I found some clips of him and yes he is impressive, but he's a natural fighter, likes to fight and recieve/dish out punishment. So I told them that IMO if he learned and committed himself to serious WC training he would double his effectivness and most of them laughed at that statement and the others I made too. Not that it matters much to me what anyone thinks.

All systems have effectiveness otherwise they would not be around today, but IMO some are more effective than other and WC is definetly near the top of that list if not at the top.

But I will add that at some point the individual does have something to say about how well they execute the art will determine how effective it is in application. You can have fastest car in the world but if you do not know how to drive it you won't get anywhere fast. Same thing in WC, at a certain point, and that point is when you are in the position of competiting with the top people in the world whether in a sporting event or on the street. It is then that their personal individual attributes will contribute heavily to the outcome of a confrontation or fight.

James

YongChun

11-02-2004, 01:38 AM

I think Wing Chun can do the job too but people spend so much time admiring the training methods of Thai boxers, mixed martial artists, and BJJ while criticizing the things that most Wing Chun clubs do so I wonder why those people bother with Wing Chun? I can't really see that it will give them any big advantage in ring fighting or MMA competition. That remains to be proven against the professionals. At a lower level, lots of things will work if there is adequate training, conditioning, sparring etc. Street fighting and ring fighting are different but they do have things in common.

captain

11-02-2004, 05:10 AM

are you kidding?most of you guys on here,against a dumb fool,would wipe the deck with him!you DO wing chun!!

Russ

Vajramusti

11-02-2004, 06:12 AM

Ernie sez:

what did you see

((Didnt bother to look. Have seen many things in real life and can visualize others))

fights from around the world different ages people and so on

((Sure-been in different places in the world))

when the human factor kicks in it all looks alike

punches , kicks , clinch , elbows , knees, head butts , etc.....

((Looks- but different people bring different developments to their encounters))

just a simple reality check

((You must have talking to some kiddies in mind))

back to lineage and history talks

((not my favorites and several other things similarly so.
Good tan saos are for development.Wing chun provides a great development path. Other systems have their own development paths.Applications involve adaptations... good fighters adapt.
What you can do with the adaptations- is upto the individual But if you dont have a devlopment path- growth stops on the long run and there is nothing to pass on but your own not necessarily or exactly duplicable experience,))

t_niehoff

11-02-2004, 07:28 AM

Ernie wrote: put yourself in the middle of that chaotic mess and ask yourself what training methods will get you out alive

**Excellent question. And I suggest that one just not do the "thought experiment", but actually put yourself in that "chaotic mess" and see how you do. IME those that do will find that a necessary part of their training for becoming better at dealing with that "chaotic mess" is to regularly face that "chaotic mess."

-----------------------------

YongChun wrote: Gary Lam, William Cheung and Emin Boztepe must be as close to a Kung Fu master as is possible. So if they cannot stop these guys then who can?

**You are always looking to others instead of yourself. It is very simple: you get what you train for. If a person doesn't train to be a fighter, they won't be a fighter. If you want to want to be able to beat world-class fighters, you need to train like a world-class fighter.

If the goal is to beat Thai boxers or Western boxers then don't waste your time with Wing Chun because Wing Chun has forms and Chi sau and theories. You don't need those for that.

**Every fighting method has forms (maybe not linked sets, but "forms" of techniques, etc.), drills, and theory. The level of skill anyone obtains depends on their innate talent and how they train.
-----------------------------

sihing wrote: All systems have effectiveness otherwise they would not be around today, but IMO some are more effective than other and WC is definetly near the top of that list if not at the top.

**Stop with the nonsense! Are you just repeating this mantra to make yourself feel better? Where is the evidence? This is like a bunch of fat folks all talking about how their weight-loss progam is superior! WCK is no better or no worse than many other fighting methods. Accept that and move on. The important question is whether or not your WCK training is producing results for you.

But I will add that at some point the individual does have something to say about how well they execute the art will determine how effective it is in application.

**The method and individual development go hand-in-hand into the "mix" that determines their personal level of effectiveness (skill). How I like to put it is that quality of "technique" magnifies (and if poor technique, the factor is a negative number!) the quality of one's individual development level (their "attributes") and that product is performance level.

Regards,

Terence

Ernie

11-02-2004, 08:30 AM

Vajramusti

((Didnt bother to look. ))

nuff said :rolleyes:

((You must have talking to some kiddies in mind))

nope only those that seem to have lost track of what will stomp them
mosly stubborn grown up's with oppinions on things they don't bother to see or do

((Applications involve adaptations... good fighters adapt.}}

agreed so how are you training your people and yourself to adapt to the pressure on the clips , emotion , physical ?

not picking on you joy , just see people talking in circles with the same old catch phrase --- well here are a few examples of real situations -- now we have a common goal
is our training preparing us as best it can [ in the street luck is a factor ] to deal with the physical and emotional stress ?

if you say your version of chi sau does then by all means break it down , if you feel comfortable just picking any average person you train and tossing them in a mass attack sitiation and think there skills are enough to get them out , then awesome
if not then ?

this question is general to everyone

what is your goal ?

self preservation or self perfection or both

are you becoming masters of the [training system] or are you learning to become adaptive in application

there is a huge difference

one has a perfect tan sau in drill envoiroments
the other can apply the concept when needed [ and can recognize when it's needed not just force it ] in a dirty enviroment

there is no right or wrong here just a small reality check

back to sinking you chi and finding your chakra you know the devil is in the details
:D

yellowpikachu

11-02-2004, 08:34 AM

Ernie wrote: put yourself in the middle of that chaotic mess and ask yourself what training methods will get you out alive

I ask a different question.
how far/much one allowed oneself to do the damage.

Ernie

11-02-2004, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Ernie wrote: put yourself in the middle of that chaotic mess and ask yourself what training methods will get you out alive

I ask a different question.
how far/much one allowed oneself to do the damage.

that would be under the ancient scroll saying

you touch me you die

hey keep your tree hugging gushy yodikudo first charka stuff on your threads
this one is meat and potato rare good old fashion passionate as whooping , shoe job
style

but you are more then welcome to contribute on the violent level that this thread is built on
:D

KingMonkey

11-02-2004, 09:28 AM

Ernie,

GRRRR now I feel tense.
Looking at the clips reminded me of the importance of the following areas of training.

1) Conditionning, a lot of fights last more than 3 seconds. If you havent trained for a longer fight and you end up in one you're focked.

2) Basics of a ground game. A lot of those fights would have been very different if the person underneath knew how to shrimp, put someone in a guard, reverse a mount, use a mount properly etc. We're not talking Royce Gracie or anything, maybe 20-30 hrs of no-gi grappling with a decent coach.

3) Chain punching/Straight blast. How many times do you see these guys punching as fast as they can with one wasted hand on a jacket/t-shirt neck. I dont care how many shots you can get in with one hand I can get in more with two.

4) Clinch. We saw very little use of good knees/elbows/headbutts despite plenty of opportunity. Very brutal weapons, you should learn to use them.

5) Simple escapes. You should be able to exit a headlock etc quickly and easily.

Ultimatewingchun

11-02-2004, 09:30 AM

Didn't bother to look.

Because...good Wing Chun doesn't need video clips.

Can't we just bring back the old days?

Yip Man didn't watch videos of non-wing chun people fighting - why should we?

KingMonkey

11-02-2004, 09:32 AM

Good Wing Chun doesn't need video clips.Lol

yellowpikachu

11-02-2004, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
that would be under the ancient scroll saying

you touch me you die

hey keep your tree hugging gushy yodikudo first charka stuff on your threads
this one is meat and potato rare good old fashion passionate as whooping , shoe job
style

but you are more then welcome to contribute on the violent level that this thread is built on
:D

Ernie,

You mis comprehend my question big time.

IT is about reality.

See, you can talk about fighiting training.....etc.... That is fine.

The question which is very real is the believe of a person. One can be real good target hitter ,can have lots of power to damage, and high speed exercution.

But, if one is a person of principle. then, he might run instead of fight. How much kungfu or fighting training matter in fighting anyway? as the chinese street saying Number one is do you DARE. Number two is can you cause damage. Number three only Number three is you Training in fighting.

Similar to in the business world, there are lots of smart guys and wise guys... they are great. But because they have a believe of not step on someone or want win-win. They walks away from deals if it is not according to thier principle.

So, the first question is how far is one's limit that one allowed when doing a favor for oneself or protecting others? That is a reality check.

Capable to fight is a skill. But what is the urge and what one allow one to cross is the driving force. So, the question is how much you allow yourself to DARE? what is the limit?

As for the Chakras... hahahaha. sure will you allow you first Chakra and second chakra --- the survival and the desire to have fun energy do the job?:D:D:D

There is no violance there is about execution. and is it appropriate? :D:D:D

Ernie

11-02-2004, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Ernie,

GRRRR now I feel tense.

Yep made me get a little heated as well , started going down my mental check list , to see were i have been slippin :mad:

Ultimatewingchun ---Didn't bother to look.

Because...good Wing Chun doesn't need video clips.

Can't we just bring back the old days?

Yip Man didn't watch videos of non-wing chun people fighting - why should we? ---

sure nuff victor ,
that's that same close minded living in the past mindet that puts down modern training methods

i can see the mob now -- burn all the books , stop the video , the world is flat i say the world is flat , if man was ment to fly he would have wings , a horseless buggy that's insane :eek:

Ernie

11-02-2004, 09:51 AM

hendrik
--But, if one is a person of principle. then, he might run instead of fight. How much kungfu or training anyway in fighting? as the chinese street saying Number one is do you DARE. Number two is can you cause damage. Number three only Number three is you Training in fighting.---

i have no principle beyond , let me see how did WSL put it
[[Wing Chun is a very sophisticated weapon, nothing else. It is a science of combat, the intent of which is the total incapacitation of an opponent. It is straightforward, efficient and deadly. ]]

hendrik
--Capable to fight is a skill. But what is the urge and what one allow one to cross is the driving force. So, the question is how much you allow yourself to DARE? what is the limit?--

lets see i have been shot at , pistol whipped jumped kicked etc..

i have hit people with bats , hammers , bottles , put a gun in a dudes mouth same guy that shot at me

all before the age of 18

i have no limit and i have no problem putting some in the dirt if there goal is to harm me

would i try to avoid it of course at all cost .

but there is a saying in the street

when it's on , then it's on

no time for principle , just survival

that my friend is reality raw un cut cold and true

yellowpikachu

11-02-2004, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
hendrik
--But, if one is a person of principle. then, he might run instead of fight. How much kungfu or training anyway in fighting? as the chinese street saying Number one is do you DARE. Number two is can you cause damage. Number three only Number three is you Training in fighting.---

i have no principle beyond , let me see how did WSL put it
[[Wing Chun is a very sophisticated weapon, nothing else. It is a science of combat, the intent of which is the total incapacitation of an opponent. It is straightforward, efficient and deadly. ]]

hendrik
--Capable to fight is a skill. But what is the urge and what one allow one to cross is the driving force. So, the question is how much you allow yourself to DARE? what is the limit?--

lets see i have been shot at , pistol whipped jumped kicked etc..

i have hit people with bats , hammers , bottles , put a gun in a dudes mouth same guy that shot at me

all before the age of 18

i have no limit and i have no problem putting some in the dirt if there goal is to harm me

would i try to avoid it of course at all cost .

but there is a saying in the street

when it's on , then it's on

no time for principle , just survival

that my friend is reality raw un cut cold and true

See, you believe in SURVIVAL, not everyone is like that.

You can take a vote in this forum. How many people can live with themself well when hurting others big time? How many people feeling bad after emotionally hurting others? How many people will fight back? will run? or will freeze? how many will intentionally hurting others and take pleasure? all of these are deeper then fighting skill.

There might be people who is super coward when comes to fight for himself. But if it is about protecting his friends or family people, he is just "unstop able".

You bring up how WSL put it.

I was told there is an incident of Leung Jan was attacked by a Teenage. Cause L J big internal injury and contribute to his death later. and he lets the Teengage walks because L J kill this teenage's father. So, L J had just given it up.

On the other hand, if you love such survival fighting game. Take a look in what is the life span of the Thai Boxers.

Everything has a price and not everyone willing to do the samething. That is the ultimate reality about human.

Knifefighter

11-02-2004, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by KingMonkey
How many times do you see these guys punching as fast as they can with one wasted hand on a jacket/t-shirt neck. I dont care how many shots you can get in with one hand I can get in more with two. Have you ever sparred with a person holding your shirt? A halfway skilled or strong person can really keep you off balance and unable to get your punches off. Some people train to fight this way and are very effective at it. Holding the clothing while hitting with the other hand allows you to keep your opponent off balance, lets you move him around to position him where you want, and prevents him from clinching or shooting Throw a knife into the mix and you are really into deep squash.

I'd be willing to bet that tha majority of martial arts people have never even considered training this way.

YongChun

11-02-2004, 10:16 AM

Terence:
**Excellent question. And I suggest that one just not do the "thought experiment", but actually put yourself in that "chaotic mess" and see how you do. IME those that do will find that a necessary part of their training for becoming better at dealing with that "chaotic mess" is to regularly face that "chaotic mess."

Ray:
Terence, do you follow your own advice or do you just like to talk tough? How many street fights do you have each week? How many times have you been dragged into court for punching someone’s lights out? Are you willing to do major time in jail just to satisfy your Ego or maybe to get a higher taste of fighting reality there?

Putting yourself in that chaotic mess doesn’t mean sparring with your hand selected buddies with your full protection body suits or whatever nor does it mean to practice with air shields with your hand selected special exclusive by invitation only club members rushing at each other to smash into your air shields as you suggested. It means to go out in the street without protection and do what those people in the videos do. So actually do it Terence and then send us the video. Then keep doing it and send more videos. Walk the walk not just talk the talk. Talk is cheap. Also if you let more members into your club you might have a better mix of fighters and also get a better perspective on teaching different kinds of people.
-----------------------------

Terence:
YongChun wrote: Gary Lam, William Cheung and Emin Boztepe must be as close to a Kung Fu master as is possible. So if they cannot stop these guys then who can?

**You are always looking to others instead of yourself. It is very simple: you get what you train for. If a person doesn't train to be a fighter, they won't be a fighter. If you want to want to be able to beat world-class fighters, you need to train like a world-class fighter.

Ray:
You ALWAYS talk how tough you train but never show it. You totally missed that one. Someone made a snide comment that those so called Kung Fu master’s probably couldn’t handle those street situations. I am commenting on the lack of credit given to any of today’s teachers. A good Kung Fu master should be able to handle those situations if master really means master. A master is a master fighter. I don’t know if Gary Lam and such are masters because that’s a relative term anyway. But the comment made was suggesting that any master would have trouble to handle those youths. That could very well be.

All of us fit into the category of that guy in Indiana Jones who when brandishing his sword got shot by Indiana Jones. The man in the street thinks all Kung Fu is crap and now we even have Kung Fu practitioners believing this.

For me the study of Kung Fu means something for you the study all aspects of. I think it is a subject that merits study, a subject with many facets , a subject with depth. Yes killing someone or almost killing someone is a part.

For you, according to one of the posts, maybe Kung Fu is to get some air shields have your 100 pound students hold them and then have 250 pound tackles run at then to see if they can stop them with a punch. Of course, according to another post, you go beyond that because you also sparred with Paul Vunack who everybody knows is real tough.

Real fighting is real fighting, War is real fighting, getting shot at is real fighting, having a pack of youths with machetes coming after you is real fighting. The rest of the training you call real fighting is just another version of Pat-a-Cake. You like to impress on people that your version of Pat-a-Cake is better than other people’s version of Pat-a-Cake. The proof is in the pudding so let’s see your guys do Pat-a-Cake. Then let's see that in the chaotic mess of a street fight as you suggest others, other than yourself, do.

Ernie

11-02-2004, 10:22 AM

hendrik
See, you believe in SURVIVAL, not everyone is like that

-- that's right but everyone must try and survive in the face of a violent situation

and that is the reason for this thread

i don't care how you will *feel* about it after the fact

that has nothing to do with surviving the situation

i don't care about [I was told there is an incident of Leung Jan was attacked by a Teenage. Cause L J big internal injury and contribute to his death later. and he lets the Teengage walks because L J kill this teenage's father. So, L J had just given it up. ]

that's LJ issue , if he couldn't take it that's on him

has nothing to do with surviving the situation

so as i said keep your moral after the fact ''thus i have heard '' stuff on your threads

this *ONLY* about surviving the situation and if *YOUR* training methods
give the tools to deal with this level of real violence

the rest i leave for the dreamers ,story tellers and arm chair theory people
REALITY hendrik

here and now

Kevin Bell

11-02-2004, 10:26 AM

Can i live myself to hurt and pain caused????

Yeup,without a second thought.

I once had to bite someone in the face to survive so bad in fact the guy required surgery the police became involved and i wasnt even cautioned as the trouble was not of of my making and that i tried to diffuse the situation, it was regarded as self defence in the eyes of the law on the fact there is no limit to use of reasonable force in order to protect oneself against assault.

A good example of wing chun though.In the concept of nearest weapon nearest target and regaining the iniative from Bill Jee.

Or do i get labeled a JKD guy???

Ernie

11-02-2004, 10:31 AM

RAY ,
look i know you and T have issues , and that's all good

but your response posed some very good idea's

how do you get as close as you can to that situation with out killing your partner /students

how do you break down the emotional and physical demands
and train them into your current system or training method

not toss out your training but gear it towards dealing with real violent encounters

people seem to think there chi sau programs have it all
and if they do cool break it down , be kind share you might save a life

Terence -
lets look beyond arguments and share training methods
that still keep the wing chun concepts yet bring it up to a functional level

just stuff to think about man

yellowpikachu

11-02-2004, 10:45 AM

See, you believe in SURVIVAL, not everyone is like that

-- that's right but everyone must try and survive in the face of a violent situation ----E

Everyone is a complex deal.
There are three general instictive reaction: Fight, Freeze, and run.

and that is the reason for this thread
i don't care how you will *feel* about it after the fact
that has nothing to do with surviving the situation

i don't care about [I was told there is an incident of Leung Jan was attacked by a Teenage. Cause L J big internal injury and contribute to his death later. and he lets the Teengage walks because L J kill this teenage's father. So, L J had just given it up. ]

that's LJ issue , if he couldn't take it that's on him

has nothing to do with surviving the situation

so as i said keep your moral after the fact ''thus i have heard '' stuff on your threads ----- E

Just because you think " everyone must try and survive in the face of a violent situation "

You cant represent other Human.
Human has complex behavior reaction which is beyond thinking.

this *ONLY* about surviving the situation and if *YOUR* training methods
give the tools to deal with this level of real violence

the rest i leave for the dreamers ,story tellers and arm chair theory people
REALITY hendrik -----E

From a friend's friend,
I heard two incidents last night about what happen in Taiwan years ago.

1, this guy was a teenage then, and went out with his buddies to have a good time in the red light district area in Taipei.

So, what he saw was a guy was pointing fingers to a boss and scolding her with his arm stretch out. And, while he was scolding, another guy, pull out a samurai sword, chop the arm of this finger pointing guy into two and run a way.

What this guy with broken arm did is, pull out his samurai sword with one hand, bow down take the chop arm, clamping in his armpit, jump up on a motorcyle and tell the motorcyle drive " chase that SOB!"

2, The teens were out to have a good time again. while they walked home, they heard rushing foot steps. look back, there are tenth of shinny samurai sword chasing a guy and running toward them . These teenages just lay close to the walls and dont even dare to look up until those people passed him. The next day, the news paper printing about a guy was chop to death. and it turns out later, those street people chop a wrong guy.

And how much fighting training do you think these people in the above two account needs? Tell me how is one going to survive when tenths of shinny samurai sword chasing one, today, tomorrow, the day after tommorow? does one kung fu's in fighting have any use at all ? always remember there is today, tomorrow, the day after tommorow and they always will meet you one day or the other.

So, if you want to live in those survival life and thinking that is the life of hero, the best fighters, ....a must similar to the movies. I rather do my pilates and dream.

But, not everyone will like to live in the environment as what happen in the top two real life incident.

Ernie

11-02-2004, 10:54 AM

hendrik --
Just because you think " everyone must try and survive in the face of a violent situation "

--- cool then you curl up in a ball and die

as for your story , guess what life is a b*tch and then you die
no one , not even the great red boat and allmighty master O
will win every situation

all you can do is try your best

fight for *YOUR* life

and that is what this thread is about
training methods that help give you a better chance

not stories you heard last night :p

there is no room for stories or moral issues when your getting kicked in the face and ribs by a few people

try and keep your mind on the subject please

PaulH

11-02-2004, 10:57 AM

Do the best you can but prepare to accept that when it's time to die, you will die. Death is inevitable. What matters is how you live with your alloted time. ~=~

yellowpikachu

11-02-2004, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Ernie

as for your story , guess what life is a b*tch and then you die
no one , not even the great red boat and allmighty master O
will win every situation

all you can do is try your best

fight for *YOUR* life

and that is what this thread is about
training methods that help give you a better chance

not stories you heard last night :p

there is no room for stories or moral issues when your getting kicked in the face and ribs by a few people

try and keep your mind on the subject please

IMHO, using one's brain then using one's fight has a better chance to live beyond survival.

and my reality is different then yours. life is not a survival but a contribution to good.

yellowpikachu

11-02-2004, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Do the best you can but prepare to accept that when it's time to die, you will die. Death is inevitable. What matters is how you live with your alloted time. ~=~

my kyokushin's sihing's younger brother, a great fighter . survive lots of street action, ordinary and street people has fear even when he stared at them.

So, one saturday night, I rememeber clearlly, after movie, he stop by at the gas station pumping gas. he was attacked at the point he put back the gas pump. dead in an hour. age.20. Sad isnt it? live is precious, once you lost it there is no spare part.

You know Paul, I love Chan because my Chan Monk master told me. Next time if people comes and fight you. 1, you fall on your ass. 2, you then cry to beg their mercy. 3, if they kick you say thank you to them.

PaulH

11-02-2004, 11:08 AM

It may or may not work, Hendrik... Some people are killers without conscience.

YongChun

11-02-2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
RAY ,
look i know you and T have issues , and that's all good

but your response posed some very good idea's

how do you get as close as you can to that situation with out killing your partner /students

people seem to think there chi sau programs have it all
and if they do cool break it down , be kind share you might save a life

Terence -
lets look beyond arguments and share training methods
that still keep the wing chun concepts yet bring it up to a functional level

just stuff to think about man

Hi Ernie,
I don't have negative issues with Terence. This is just a debate. we might not even disagree in reality. Our members have walked the walk. I know what reality is. I don't know about the experience of Terence or his members, he didn't say except he sparred with Paul Vunack.

I am just doing what a good lawyer would do. Terence just left himself open by suggesting that everyone except himself jump in and regularly test themselves in these real situations. He didn't say test themselves in sparring but in these chaotic real fight situations. So then I have to test him, to see if he really does what he suggests others do. All we have heard so far is his training shield thing, sparing with Paul Vunack, being selective with students you accept into the club (people who are not too rough or what?) and regularly beating the hell out of his students to 100% level by actually trying to take their heads off. So now with his comments let's see some action and not just tough talk. I am sure Terence can twist his way around this and try to wriggle out of what he said. That's what he's trained to do.

My position always was :
1. learn the theory
2. learn the forms
3. learn the drills
4. learn chi sa and everything about close range fighting
5. learn to close the gap
6. spar and spar with progressively more speed and force stopping short of injuring your partner with or without protection.

Take what time you need to learn these things properly. There is no rush. If there is a rush get a gun. To learn an ART you learn it ALL.

7. then go and try that against non Wing Chun methods, at first the teacher depending on his background feeds the students other things, then try the real TaeKwonDo, Real Silat, Real BJJ, real Escrima, etc.
8. for those who like to compete, then compete and compete
9. for those who like to street fight, then street fight until you end up dead or land in jail.

The Hung style model was:
1) learn 10 years of Hung style
2) go out and fight

The Tai Chi model was:
1) learn 10 years of Tai Chi
2) go out and fight

The Karate model was:
1) learn 5 years Karate
2) go out and fight

The Wing Chun model was:
1) learn two years of Wing Chun
2) go out and fight

The Escrima model was:
1) learn one year of Escrima (fast basics in 8 weeks)
2) go out and fight

Within those 10,5 or 2 years there is theory, forms, drills, sparring, hitting the bags, hitting the dummy, playing with foreign attacks, conditioning, fitness, weights, weapons study, etc. (even within Tai Chi).

it's as simple as that.

Ray

Ernie

11-02-2004, 11:12 AM

Paul
please keep on subject [ training methods ] not how you feel about life
thank you

hendrik[ please keep the chan b.s. of my threads ] as well as stories
if you can not contribute to the issue that's fine but the story, religious , side track day dream stuff is exaclty what i'm trying to avoid
it has nothing to do with surviving when the chit hits the fan

[[I love Chan because my Chan Monk master told me. Next time if people comes and fight you. 1, you fall on your ass. 2, you then cry to beg their mercy. 3, if they kick you say thank you to them.]]

if you wish to die then that is your role , and if curling up and getting beat down is your answer then you need not add any more that is your [ training method ] cool

yellowpikachu

11-02-2004, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
It may or may not work, Hendrik... Some people are killers without conscience.

Sure, but if you dont want to get drunk stay away from the bar and archohol.. you might still get drunk but there is much much much less chances.

If you want to test your drinking Kung fu without get drunk, then you are looking for it.

ofcause, that is everyone's choice of reality. What one focus in, it become the reality. ofcause there are karma where one stuck in an environement, but is fighting the only resolution or put oil into fire? that, one has to use brain.

This topic is about reality check. I said enough. :D

Ernie

11-02-2004, 11:19 AM

ray,
cool nice list but go beyond the list

that's why i put the clips up , what from the list you gave do you feel gives you a better chance at surviving [ not winning ] just making it home

in your heart and in your mind when that little voice of honesty speaks , beyond system or method

when the pain of the hits and fog of war overwhelms you

what would you reach for , what would wish you had covered

how ould you have trained it

now this is just a game of the mind i know and it can be broken down by many cop out knee jerk answers

but take the high road and answer from the heart

no ego no need to prove this or that lineage or chi sau approach

take a second and put yourself there and let your mind wonder what if ?

Kevin Bell

11-02-2004, 11:25 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ernie

but your response posed some very good idea's

how do you get as close as you can to that situation with out killing your partner /students

how do you break down the emotional and physical demands
and train them into your current system or training method

By using gameplans,tactics, working off fence,(Man Sau Wu Sau) Cheats,feignts.Verbal, Aggression.Taking what already exists and making it applicable to modern day urban warfare.Trying to ensure anything i do in Chi Sau has a direct application to real fighting etc.

I see people write about bridging the gap.What about letting an aggressor bridge the gap for you??

Yes good to fight against other styles i still workout in Boxing and see some of my TKD and Thai buddies from time to time.Is that the kind person we meet in the street everyday.Unlikely in my opinion.Most guys i know from different lineages or styles etc are all pretty good guys.I train for the guy who switches people off with questions/loopholing wants the contents of my wallet etc etc.I will go to any length to ensure mine or my family's safety and not feel bad for it..

Tom Kagan

11-02-2004, 11:35 AM

"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool." -- Jane Wagner

Why is it that so many just can't enjoy what they are studying instead of trying to make it into something that it or they can never be?

I am not directing this post specifically at you, Ernie. However, if anyone truly believes they are studying martial arts so they can 'survive', I just have to ask the following:

What is your blood pressure? chloresterol level? hom-ocysteine? lipoprotein(a), C-Reactive Protein? Fasting Blood Glucose? Hg1AC?

While driving: Do you wear a seatbelt? Do you speed? Do you leave at least a 2 second gap?

Do you have a working smoke detector, carbon-monoxide detector, and fire extinquisher in your house?

Have you maintained your Red cross first-aid certification? Your C.P.R. training?

I could go on. But, my point is: Odds are, by several orders of magnitude that heart disease, stroke, diabetes, a car accident, or fire will get a person before they are attacked.

If we indeed, want to discuss, as Ernie puts it, "training methods that help give you a better chance," then it begs the question: a chance at what? Because, if we are talking about "survival," most people need to put so much in their lives back in order before they should even begin to consider the KungFu fantasy. :D

If Ernie really wants to keep this thread on the subject of 'survival', it is extremely important for people to be honest with themselves about what they are studying and why. If someone is attempting to improve the odds of survival, then what in someone's right mind is a martial art doing in the forefront of someone's survival/self-defense plan? Wouldn't the above survival "training methods" at the minimum, be on an equal footing as a good punch?

I, for one, don't have any qualms about what I'm studying. Taking an inate ability to hurt, maim, and kill and attempting to make it an artform is inherently nuts. :D There is no rational for it regardless of whether it might in some very unlikely scenarios save my ass sometime down the road.

Ah, screw it. Forget I mentioned anything. Just practice your self-defense moves and await further instructions.

Ernie

11-02-2004, 11:53 AM

Tom-Why is it that so many just can't enjoy what they are studying instead of trying to make it into something that it or they can never be?
I, for one, don't have any qualms about what I'm studying. Taking an inate ability to hurt, maim, and kill and attempting to make it an artform is inherently nuts
-If we indeed, want to discuss, as Ernie puts it, "training methods that help give you a better chance," then it begs the question: a chance at what? Because, if we are talking about "survival," most people need to put so much in their lives back in order before they should even begin to consider the KungFu fantasy]]

a few out of sequence post

first survival in respect to the enviroment of the video clips - not heart or health issues

thus a simple goal ----not an art form

trying to make and art form more important then basic survival skills in a combative situation is nuts :D

if people just said they were in it for nothing more then a good time and to practice an art form

i would have nothing to say except good for you

it's when these same weekend warriors start having oppinions on the combative effectivness of there training systems

then i say , cool then lets get down and dirty and see what your really got

since very few are about cmpetitive ring and mat suff

cool

lets take it to the street

now lets see if your training methods are dialed in to deal with the mental and emotional stress/skills and physical punishment the streets will dish out

if they are , great ! share

if there not

cool be honest and don't talk about combative effectiness

just keeping things real simple

to much intellectual BS floating around

Ultimatewingchun

11-02-2004, 12:22 PM

Got to comment on this quote by Knifefighter (Dale Frank)...

"Have you ever sparred with a person holding your shirt? A halfway skilled or strong person can really keep you off balance and unable to get your punches off. Some people train to fight this way and are very effective at it. Holding the clothing while hitting with the other hand allows you to keep your opponent off balance, lets you move him around to position him where you want, and prevents him from clinching or shooting Throw a knife into the mix and you are really into deep squash.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of martial arts people have never even considered training this way."

Have been training against several different grab-hold-and-hit scenarios for some years now...precisely because it can be a dangerous thing to be up against - as KF suggests. It's not easy to deal with...and chain punches are not the answer.

You have to immediately focus on not only blocking the punching fist - but also GRABBING it...otherwise repeated punches are coming - some of which will probably find their mark...since you are a sitting duck target...because you're being held stationary.

Then turn you're attention back to the arm that's grabbing you - either to knock it free and start punching or possibly go into a clinch/grappling situation.

Ernie

11-02-2004, 12:50 PM

Once the goal has been set [ in this case street situation on the clips ] we need to observe the situation with our blinders off , and just pick out the common denominators ,
One that has been brought up by a few

--- THE CLINCH ----

Dale- let’s you move him around to position him where you want, and prevents him from clinching or shooting Throw a knife into the mix and you are really into deep squash.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of martial arts people have never even considered training this way."-----

Victor -- Have been training against several different grab-hold-and-hit scenarios for some years now...precisely because it can be a dangerous thing to be up against - as KF suggests. It's not easy to deal with...and chain punches are not the answer.—

When observing the clips and from personal experience both in the street and the ring , we see the clinch as a very common position across the board , much more common then the jab , the straight punch , chi sau position , any crossing hand position etc….

Yet most martial arts train in these non realistic positions the majority of the time ?

Sure chi sau gives you the seed of sensitivity and the benefits of reading off of feeling , but how far do you take it and how much time do you invest in non productive reference points ?

The arts we seem to bring up as most difficult to deal with like Thai for example train a large part of there time in the clinch hmmm kind of makes you wonder huh !

So now we go back to setting a plan in motion towards our *goals*
How much time do you have to train ?
How much of that time are you investing in productive goal related training or non productive art related training ?

Now wing chun on paper should be the last art to get put in the clinch or get taken down , since we train such a dominate center line , but paper and reality are not the same

Something to think about

YongChun

11-02-2004, 12:54 PM

ray,
1. cool nice list but go beyond the list

My list is complete because it has forms, drilling, sparring, theory and fighting. There is no beyond the list as far as martial art goes. Beyond the list is to die in battle. You learn whatever art you like. Then you go down the list which gets more and more real until your dead. Some people like to stop short at various spots along the way to enjoy the scenery. Some people climb a hill, some climb mount Everest. Some people can't even climb a hill so they stay with doing that. No use to throw them into the 100% situation. All they can do is try their best to defend themselves if danger strikes. The reality of fighting is not sparring in a gym. It's shooting, bombing, mass attack, sneak attack, holding your family at knifepoint, terrorist attack. To prepare for that go and live in those environments. You still may not survive no matter what you train. For sports events it's a different thing. Two video clips are sports events and the rest is chaotic street attack. Those people in the street attack have no training. So we all can do that. Success depends on who you fight. The more you train the better your chance but meet the wrong guy and your still dead.

2. that's why i put the clips up , what from the list you gave do you feel gives you a better chance at surviving [ not winning ] just making it home

For fighting you need everything on the list, forms, drilling, sparring, theory and lots and lots of fighting. All those are on my list. Furthermore you need to live in the reality environments like gang neighborhoods, jail, war torn countries.

3. in your heart and in your mind when that little voice of honesty speaks , beyond system or method

System is just a particular way of doing something. Beyond system is just training attributes, speed, strength, physical conditioning, aggression,.., last techniques.

4. when the pain of the hits and fog of war overwhelms you

The only way to train some street reality is to have 5 people try to kick your head in when you are on the ground. You don't wear a foam covered suit. With knives you have someone try to cut you. To train reality, fight strangers who hate your guts and who have a backup of friends. Number one is a good body. Not much training will help you if the guy fighting you trains equally hard but outweighs you by 100 pounds. You can increase your chances but you still end up dead. An ant can try to run faster but it still gets stepped on.

5. what would you reach for , what would wish you had covered

Fighting should be simple. Get into shape, develop something you can hit with, train delivery to the target. Train to take pain. Maybe you can train to fight with as broken arm or broken leg?

6. how ould you have trained it

You just train at something all your life. Do something that you can keep up all your life. Train in such a way that you don't get injured more in training then you would in an actual attack. Once you are injured you don't have any martial art left. When you get your knees kicked in, you can no longer kick. Training to 100% will produce crippling injury otehrwise it is not 100%. We all have different levels of Pat-a-Cake games. How can we compare them if we don't try against professional standards? Does surviving those street fights posted prove anything? Does losing mean you can't fight?

7. now this is just a game of the mind i know and it can be broken down by many cop out knee jerk answers but take the high road and answer from the heart

You train and train according to the time you have available to train. Some people train intensively, burn themselves out and then never train again. Some people can train all their lives and do things to minimize their chances for getting attacked. Some people go out looking for fights to prove their manhood until the get crippled, end up in jail or end up dead. Reality is not a Claude Van Dame movie where you train and train to beat the bad guy in the ring.

9. no ego no need to prove this or that lineage or chi sau approach

Everyone's lineage is OK. Chi sau is different things to different people. Most Wing Chun I am aware of does: theory, forms, drilling, sparring and fighting. Not everyone does all of the above. Not everyone likes to injure others. Not everyone likes to get injured themselves. The closer to reality, the closer to death. Some people can get pretty close. Some like to keep further away. Some put their life on the line on a daily basis. We are all in different circumstances.

10. take a second and put yourself there and let your mind wonder what if ?

There are too many what if's in a real fight. An dog doesn't think: what if a cat, what if a bear, what if an alligator, what if a monkey, what if another dog? Puppies play fight. Later they all can fight if they need to fight. We all play fight. Later we can all fight if we need to fight. Every art has a training model. most have a theory, have drills, have play fighting. Beyond that is to go out and fight. Going out to fight has it's risks. Most people evaluate those risks and try to avoid real fighting. but if it happens, it happens and you do your best. If you don't have time to train then keep your art as simple as possible. Train how to move and hit. Train reacting while getting hit. If you want to learn an art in depth then that's a different thing. Arts developed in war are one thing, arts developed in peacetime is another.

Kung Fu is an art that can be used for fighting. Kung Fu for fighting went downhill with the invention of the gun. The biggest factor in a fight is your killer instinct and willingness to survive. Next is your physical conditioning. Next is your weapons. Last is your techniques.

Tydive

11-02-2004, 12:57 PM

Honestly most of my skill is in avoiding or difusing those situations. I have been in enough street fights over the years to know that I am best served by avoiding them. It's been 15 years that noone has tried to kill me and I would like to keep that going.

When I was in that violent environment my training was focused on what worked and what I could do to take advantage of my strengths while minimizing my weaknesses. I trained hardcore full contact and with realistic partners. Part of that was supplementing with knives, guns, mace, sticks, steel toe boots and a bulletproof vest. Hand to hand combat is fine, but I would rather not be empty handed vs an armed opponent.

Now that I have taken myself out of those situations I focus my training on getting stronger and smoother. I avoid full contact because my body has enough scar tissue and I don't want to cut anymore years off my life. There is no way I would enter a ring fight in my current condition.

All that said, I still have a belief that I could handle most attackers who tried to mess with me on the street... I may be dead wrong but that is the fun of having an ego.

Tom Kagan

11-02-2004, 01:09 PM

Recently, a well known and highly skilled martial artist was in NYC. He's a bit of a playful instigator especially after several drinks. At one point, he started in on someone with a bit of "I'm not touching you. III'MMM NOOOOTTT TOOOUCHHINNGG YOOOUUU!" routine. It was very funny.

But, in my mind, I'm thinking: "I'm not running you over with my car. III'MMM NOOOOTTT RRRUUNNNNINNNGGG YOOOU OOOVERRR WITTHTHTH MMMYYYY CAAARRRR!"

Combat is not a duel, or even a brawl.

On your video clip, no one appeared to be seriously injured. I doubt even the person hit with the bottle was seriously injured. So, if we want to cut the "intellectual BS" and talk about survival in a combative situation, then our training methods need to be discussed within the framework of combat. I didn't see any examples of that on the video - just a bunch of people having some perverse fun. So, to me, performing well in the environment shown is still just an art-form. (Or, as you have put it in the past: "Two men enter, one man leaves.") :D

From your history mentioned here, I don't think you need to be reminded that the stress of looking over your shoulder for payback - or planning it - is quite a different beast altogether.

Regardless of a person's political view, make no mistake: this is combat. (http://www.bushflash.com/year.html)

No one trains what it takes to survive in combat by studying martial arts today. Tell me, what possible tidbit could anyone, including you, give here in this forum, which could prepare you for being too scared to close your eyes?

Don't get me wrong, discussing training methods which can improve your stand-up, clinch, or ground game, is all well and good. I call that refining an art-form. You disagree with my use of terminology. I can accept that. However, you want to call it survival. Even if I limit it to the realm of a combative situation, I have trouble accepting your choice of terminology and am sufficiently compelled to try and burst the bubble of people's fantasy of what is combat - just as you try to burst the bubble of people's fantasy of what I'll call a duel or a brawl. ;)

Ernie

11-02-2004, 01:18 PM

Ray-My list is complete because it has forms, drilling, sparring, theory and fighting. There is no beyond the list as far as martial art goes

--- how do you develop each , towards a effective goal ?
everybody in every art can say they have these things

yet there training methods vary so do there results

Ray-System is just a particular way of doing something. Beyond system is just training attributes, speed, strength, physical conditioning, aggression,.., last techniques.

--- good now were getting to the meat , most people train that list in reverse :D and talk about results :p

Ray - The only way to train some street reality is to have 5 people try to kick your head in when you are on the ground. You don't wear a foam covered suit.

yes to a degree , i havve been through that type of training getting the shoe job in a drill and in real life , there were similarities

what i felt and emotional had to go through , so if we adrees it from a mental and physical level , we are creative ceatures we can come up with ways to train with out killing one and other

we learn from experience , yet we are good at creating experiences to draw an idea from

just takes work

Ray-Training to 100% will produce crippling injury otehrwise it is not 100%. We all have different levels of Pat-a-Cake games. How can we compare them if we don't try against professional standards? Does surviving those street fights posted prove anything? Does losing mean you can't fight?

cool then we should never speak on fighting or training for any type of conflict since no one has ever been able to train or develop fight skill with out killing or being killed
that makes perfect sense

lets throw in the towel and go do tai chi :D

does doing a form prove anything does doing chi sau prove anything and so on and so on

way to much going in circles

there is a problem in front of you , you have deal with a violent situation , do you have ehough gas in the tank , can you handle the pressure and pain , do you have the heart to do what you have to do

simple goals , no need to get all huffy about well if it's not like this the screw it all

set the goal . be honest . research the training method that produces the desired results

or best not to speak on it , speak on forms and breathing and stories of past greats [ not aimed at you in general]
people are losing faith in traditional kung fu because it doesn't work like the old stories , the training methods don't fly
sure there are a few special people here and there that get some good skill , but not the normal person
people are exposed to more reality now , the want results not stories

so either we can stay in the past or stride for results

Tydive

i'm with you tired of being injured , want to protect my frame , so we must be creative in our training ,keep the skills we had from the hardcore days , yet do it in a safer way

it's a fun journey

Ernie

11-02-2004, 01:34 PM

Tom

no bubble to burst , just focusing on what is
there is nations fighting
and there is the individual stuff we have to deal with
we all train to punch and kick
and talk about how much better [wing chun] is :p

yet are the current training methods producing these results

why do people have to blow stuff so out of proportion like , the video clip of a war torn county and storied of 12 samurai sword wielding people

to evade the simple question

were and how are you investing your training

if only for art's sake cool don't speak on street situations or ring situations

speak on art situations

if you’re training for self preservation then your goal and training methods should reflect that
is it such a sin to state the obvious

this is a combative method not ballet

or is it just another form of dance with forms and pretty routines

it’s cool if people want to take shots my way I got thick skin , but to me they’re just avoiding the question [ lip sau ]

I didn’t say I have all the answers or the superior wing chun lineage or stuff like well if you knew proper wing chun or chi sau then you wouldn’t ask , that’s all BS blow hard stuff

If you have effective training methods you would just state them

Victor and Dale had no problem offering up some of their idea’s and things they have tested

Yet every one else comes back with stories and war clips and well the only way is to get in a million street fights and so on

I find these mindsets very interesting

It’s like the well I can’t do it so it can’t be done thing

Again just wanted to get people to think and ask themselves questions

Funny how people react

YongChun

11-02-2004, 02:09 PM

Ray-Training to 100% will produce crippling injury otherwise it is not 100%. We all have different levels of Pat-a-Cake games. How can we compare them if we don't try against professional standards? Does surviving those street fights posted prove anything? Does losing mean you can't fight?

Ernie:
cool then we should never speak on fighting or training for any type of conflict since no one has ever been able to train or develop fight skill with out killing or being killed
that makes perfect sense

lets throw in the towel and go do tai chi

Ray:
Are you doing real fighting or playing Pat-a-Cake games? What you talk about is not outside of anyone's training model. Look at Millitary training, that's for combat. There are enough shows about that, so most people understand training for combat. It's 100% effort but not 100% trying to kill each other. Terence claims 100% trying to take your partner's head off is the way to go and furthermore to do that from day 1. I think the approach should be more gradual and stop short or trying to injure your partner. It's very easy to injure one's partner. If someone takes you down and gets you in a certain hold and you haven't trained for that then tough luck, your toast. I don't know how to get out of a triangle choke nor do I care. To me chi sau and sparring is the same as what the Gracies do except standing up, except not even that since chi sau can go to the ground. Chi sau and sparring is Pat-a-Cake. Fighting is different, you aim to hurt your opponent. Fighting is learning stuff, mental and physical conditioning. A smart instructor can figure out all kinds of scenarios that approach in his mind, the physical and mental stress of fighting reality. Play fighting can cover a lot.

Tai Chi is not something for old people. It's just another way to fight. A Tai chi fighter goes through the same model: theory, drills, forms, sparring, hitting bags, hitting dummies and then fighting. Tai Chi in a fight is not much different than Wing Chun in a fight. Someone punches you, you punch them at the same time. Just your mechanics are a little different. Even you could probably fight with Tai Chi. It's got punches, kicks and arm breaks. It's got taking a force and dishing out a force. If you watch William C.C. Chen train then you would swear they were doing Western boxing. They put on the gloves and really hit. They hit as hard as any I have felt. They go with the flow like Escrima dudes do. It also has a health aspect which people confuse with combat Tai Chi. Tai chi on the surface looks useless the same as does SLT on the surface. It has similar principles than Wing Chun or Judo or Aikido of not going against the force. Yet they all can and do go against the force depending on the circumstance. What the majority of people do in Tai Chi doesn't define the fighting art.

Some arts have less things in them and hence are quicker to learn. Some people put on a bit of protection and just go at each other every day. That's a way to learn to fight. The training model of one of my teachers was Saturday to Sunday spar with other arts, Friday night do chi sau in the kitchen with the teacher. In the chi sau there were no drills, just getting pushed, pulled, jerked all over the place while getting tips on the fly. He found that worked good enough for his purpose. It wasn't the teachers job to train in the reality of combat. That was left for him to explore on his own.

Ray

YongChun

11-02-2004, 02:34 PM

1. Spend 8 weeks learning some Arnis/Escrima
2. Put on a helmet and try to whack each other all over the place for a couple of months
3. Over time you will be able to use more and more of what you learned in those 8 weeks when you get a better sense of distancing and timing and just being able to see what's happening at high speed.
4. After that if you are so inclined go and fight in a competition somewhere.

That's what we did before.

Now take that model and apply it to knife fighting, fist fighting, fencing, spear fighting, wrestling or whatever.

When you got that out of your system, continue to learn the art in depth. Only a subset of any art works in competition at high speed.

Ray

Ernie

11-02-2004, 02:40 PM

Ray-Look at Millitary training, that's for combat.

now that is the best advice you have put up so far

to be honest i draw alot from military training not so much as there exact approach but there method of breaking down the mind and building it back ---stress over load

as for the Tai chi thing bottom of the list of places i would go for fighting skills right next to needle point , well needle point might be more effective they have weapons :D

my training partner has a decade in tai chi , and is a biker from new york and ex punker

real street dude

he loves his tai chi but fights with wing chun , though he still tries to get me to do tai chi when i'm old and have to make a choice between golf , checkers , dominos , or tai chi i will cross that bridge

ps , just because you put on gloves and hit each other doesn't mean you have the skill ,
talk to me when they can pull tai chi off on some good kick boxers and it's consistant and the learning process is quick

Ernie

11-02-2004, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by YongChun
1. Spend 8 weeks learning some Arnis/Escrima
2. Put on a helmet and try to whack each other all over the place for a couple of months
3. Over time you will be able to use more and more of what you learned in those 8 weeks when you get a better sense of distancing and timing and just being able to see what's happening at high speed.
4. After that if you are so inclined go and fight in a competition somewhere.

That's what we did before.

Now take that model and apply it to knife fighting, fist fighting, fencing, spear fighting, wrestling or whatever.

When you got that out of your system, continue to learn the art in depth. Only a subset of any art works in competition at high speed.

Ray take that same model and apply it to the clips , how would you train, break down the situations and build a progressive program if you had to train some one or yourself for that

then try and answer it with a wing chun asnwer but a more dialed in training method

fun huh!

Tom Kagan

11-02-2004, 02:45 PM

I'm not evading your question. I am discussing what I believe can be reasonably discussed via the written word and what interests me - as are you. I can procrastinate as well as you can on the internet. :D If you consider what I write as "taking shots" at you, that perplexes me. If Victor and Dale are better at describing other aspects which they believe can be reasonably discussed via the written word - and that interests them - then more power to them. That, however, is beyond my meager capabilities and/or interests in this case at least.

You bring up self preservation. Now, *I* know what you mean. But, I feel compelled to voice how trivial marital arts is in relation to it. This is why I prefaced my first post by saying it was not to you directly. Perhaps you disagree with my opinion. But, how you managed to infer that I am somehow claiming "superior wing chun lineage", or whether "you knew proper wing chun or chi sau then you wouldn’t ask", or "I can't do it it can't be done" or any of the other stuff you characterize as "BS blow hard stuff", well that escapes me. That was not my intent nor my point of view.

If there are such people, even those who train via a method to give them 100% effectiveness in a combative situation in the stand-up, clinch, and ground are not training self-preservation. Why do I say this? Because fighting by mutual consent. I don't have an issue with that and I've participated myself on occasion. ;) But, I'm just trying be honest.

I don't see how you and your methods are training for "self-preservation." If I am to believe you, there should be no sin in pointing out my perspective of your methods, either. That's what interests me about your topic - and about you - not getting hung up on some method or technique. :D

You say you want "to get people to think and ask themselves questions." I consider that a noble goal that you and I share. I think you've been, on occasion, successful. I hope I manage to do the same.

I'm not completely sure you perceive how close our viewpoints on martial arts really are. The major difference that I see between us is that it seems to me that you enjoy opening the can in your avatar, whereas I don't, because I know from my own personal experience that I'm looking for my car keys when and if I manage to open it. :D Anything less is just fun and games - and quite a perversely enjoyable artform. ;)

Jeff Bussey

11-02-2004, 02:53 PM

What up people?

Training for reality.
Now I think we can all agree that if you street fight enough you're gonna get seriously hurt at some point and not to mention the occasional nights in jail, buying new clothes, having your girl yell at you when you get out of the tank in the morning... :)

Having said that, a couple of things that are involved in street fighting

- unpredictablity
- raw emotions
- fast and strong hitting
- groups of people
- weapons
- no rules

So what do we need to do to defend against this?

I think you need at least two things conditioning (like Ernie's said before) and your mindset

You don't need to be a master to fight, you don't need to be training in any system to fight (I'm talking about being successful at it, not the ability to fight that everyone has)

Training in Ving Tsun can help you if you're a fighter but just because you take Ving Tsun or any art doesn't make you a fighter.

So how do you train your mindset and your conditioning?

Mindset, hmmmmmm that's a tough one. Your mindset comes from within, if it's not there then there's nothing you can do to train it. You can be a real gentle person and if someone attacks your child you can turn into a killer (literally). We can train our intent with drills in class but I think you probably have to be a bit of an a$$4ole to really have your mindset with you all the time.
Either that or a stimulus for it to surface.
(kinda like nice guys finish last and as a side note, I've been told I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet :p )

So conditioning, I'd actually like to hear some thoughts on this. Solo vs partner.
Anyone with any good solo drills that they find bring up their conditioning levels?

J

YongChun

11-02-2004, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
as for the Tai chi thing bottom of the list of places i would go for fighting skills right next to needle point , well needle point might be more effective they have weapons :D

talk to me when they can pull tai chi off on some good kick boxers and it's consistant and the learning process is quick

How about this? I know there are more effective fighters but I don't know their names so I offer the bottom of the ladder. I know your comeback will be that this is not the right kind of fighting. Yet army combat isn't either nor is fighting the local gangs, so it's hard to get just the right kind of fighting.

http://www.williamccchen.com/maxcchen.htm

His most-recent championships:

Oct 2004 8th Annual Hall of Fame Open International (Akron, OH)

July 2004 Int’l Chinese Martial Arts Championships (Orlando, FL)

June 2003 US San Shou Team Trials Championships (Atlanta, GA)

July 2003 San Shou Shootout III (San Jose, CA)

July 2002 San Shou Shootout II Championships (San Jose, CA)

July 2002 Taiji Legacy international Kung-Fu Tournament (Plano, TX)

Max began his martial arts training at age four with Sifu Howard Lee, who taught him Northern Praying Mantis and T'ai Chi Knife. At the age of 11, he started the study of T'ai Chi Chuan under the guidance of his father, Grandmaster William C.C. Chen. In addition to his San Shou accomplishments, Max has won 12 gold medals, four silver medals, and three bronze medals in T'ui Shou (Push Hands) since 1995.

Max has been a teaching assistant at Grandmaster Chen's school in New York City since 1997. He teaches Tai Chi and San Shou at the school, and teaches San Shou training and conditioning classes/workshops in New York and Europe.

There is also:
http://www.williamccchen.com/tiffanyfchen.htm

Tiffany began competing in Women's Lei Tai San Shou (Chinese Kickboxing on a raised platform) in 2003. She won her first world championship in the event the same year, at the 2003 World Kuoshu Women's Lei Tai Championship in Sao Paolo, Brazil. She was also awarded the tournament trophy for The Best Lei-Tai Performance by a Female Athlete. As of October 2004, her record is 7 - 2.

Tiffany is a teaching assistant of Grandmaster Chen since 1996. She started teaching her own classes since 1999 to individuals, group instructions to companies and their employees while training for her next competition.

Ray

Ernie

11-02-2004, 03:11 PM

Tom ,
my rant was not directed at you , it was a rant on the knee jerk stuff we hear all the time that traditional types use to escape the obvious

as for lineage stuff I could give a rats a$$ about that ,

only training methods ,and results
what are we training for
what are we giving back

instead of getting all verbose about the situation victor and dale immediately identified with it and offered their concepts and methods

which goes back to personal experience and instead of looking for a million reasons why one can't do something
they researched and test

this is healthy

feeding off the system and not giving back is well lazy in my mind .
now how each person researches and tries to figure stuff out , is the cool part , sure we will make mistakes and go astray and maybe even just re enforce the stuff we were already given
but we go through the experience , ask questions , push ourselves this is important

--- Tom -- don't see how you and your methods are training for "self-preservation." ----

in my mind first and foremost you have to be clear about what is most common in a non mutual contest , some one or a group trying to bring you harm
now first we should run , so we have to be able to run -- fitness
then if we have to fight we need the ability to take punishment , mental and physical -- conditioning

we need to be able hit on the go --- foot work , timing ,and adaptability

we need to be able to escape compromising positions and inflict damage in those positions --clinch , ground etc

there is more , and this of course if you are in a position to fight back you might just get dropped , but then no training will save you so who cares =)

so when you look at your training methods [ not art ] are these bases covered , if so great
if not then were you allocating your time and energy ?

as for my whoop ass can , nah I’m not a fighter just honest about what I know I have to try and do when the time calls for it , my mind is very open I was hoping people would step and offer training methods with in there wing chun system that covers these ideas with results
that would be great
and we can all learn and experiment as a family

we all train in a combative system so I put up some clips that are not sport related as a question , I don’t see what the big deal is , we should say cool no problem at may school we approach that this way

yet that does not seem the case

YongChun

11-02-2004, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
take that same model and apply it to the clips , how would you train, break down the situations and build a progressive program if you had to train some one or yourself for that

then try and answer it with a wing chun asnwer but a more dialed in training method

fun huh!

The training for Wing Chun, boxing, Escrima, Tai Chi, Hung style is all the same. Learn the basic moves. Hit the bags to develop power. Do lots of air training and shadow boxing for pure speed and flow. Then spar with one opponent and go heavier and heavier, faster and faster. Then try multiple opponents unarmed. Then try multiple opponents armed. With Wing Chun you ingrain the movements: the hand work, the footwork until those things are natural to you. Then you fight, lose, fight, lose, fight lose, and so on for 50,000 times until you can get that to work in a pressure situation. You try not to get injured otherwise all is for nothing and you have no martial art. Arts like Thai boxing, boxing, Escrima and may others have training models to borrow. Wing Chun is just another form of boxing with high mobile footwork, straight punch, uppercut, hook punch, elbows, knees, grabs, sweeps, throws, locks, you name it. The art is to hit without getting hit. It's an ideal that is not totally achievable.

Ray

Ray

Ernie

11-02-2004, 03:17 PM

Ray
those are individuals , there will always be great individuals that can use any method

it's th training system that is not geared towards combative results as a whole

that is my point

we can not base our growth on individual awards ,

now we could research there training methods and see was it the traditional path or how did they supplement

that would be interesting
;)

jeff good post

Ernie

11-02-2004, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by YongChun
The training for Wing Chun, boxing, Escrima, Tai Chi, Hung style is all the same. Learn the basic moves. Hit the bags to develop power. Do lots of air training and shadow boxing for pure speed and flow. Then spar with one opponent and go heavier and heavier, faster and faster. Then try multiple opponents unarmed. Then try multiple opponents armed. With Wing Chun you ingrain the movements: the hand work, the footwork until those things are natural to you. Then you fight, lose, fight, lose, fight lose, and so on for 50,000 times until you can get that to work in a pressure situation. You try not to get injured otherwise all is for nothing and you have no martial art. Arts like Thai boxing, boxing, Escrima and may others have training models to borrow. Wing Chun is just another form of boxing with high mobile footwork, straight punch, uppercut, hook punch, elbows, knees, grabs, sweeps, throws, locks, you name it. The art is to hit without getting hit. It's an ideal that is not totally achievable.

Ray

Ray now your talking brother
i really liked this part --Wing Chun is just another form of boxing with high mobile footwork, straight punch, uppercut, hook punch, elbows, knees, grabs, sweeps, throws, locks, you name it. The art is to hit without getting hit. It's an ideal that is not totally achievable

very clear

now we just have to research and experiement with training methods that make it safer to go harder with out it turning into patty cake :D

YongChun

11-02-2004, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
now your talking brother
now we just have to research and experiement with training methods that make it safer to go harder with out it turning into patty cake :D

Ok take it away Ernie, Terence,..?

A hard patty cake hurts.

Your very fast on the (writing) draw Ernie.

Ray

Ernie

11-02-2004, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by YongChun
Ok take it away Ernie, Terence,..?

A hard patty cake hurts.

Your very fast on the (writing) draw Ernie.

Ray

Ray ,
you should see my pak sau:D

look you know i like to stir up things , i will never be awing chun yes man or a sifu say's kind of guy
i feel we each have to make out own way , but we can all help each other
so what i think may or may not be right what T thinks may or may not be right
it's group effort

so everyone's voice has equal wieght
i just ask people to break down there statements and support them with proven training methods

not just --well chi sau has it all --- or at my school we don't have that problem , or when you find good wing chun blah blah blah

just support it that's all

and what one persons views as results may not be the same as another

-- so i picked these regular street fight clips to put us all on the same page

and then proceded to pour gas on the fire :D

YongChun

11-02-2004, 04:06 PM

Ok, another practical thing. Your partner throws low roundhouse kicks at you during a sparring session. His main weapon to get you with is the low roundhouse kick but it’s mixed in with other stuff so that you don’t quite know when it’s coming. Mostly you get kicked a lot at first. You try to be mobile and use the triangle kind of steeping like Escrima people (Bill Jee and dummy stepping) do to get into a safer less pressure zone. The Karate , Taekwondo kicks are more focused to deliver maximum power to a specific point in space. The Thai low roundhouse are more like a machete that cuts right through. So you find with the Karate and Taekwondo maybe more success with the triangle footwork although the kicks come at a faster clip and eventually to other forms of kicks. The Thai kick can turn into a jackhammer Thai kick approach with kicks coming at the rate of 80 a second if the first one is not stopped or evaded. So against a low right Thai kick, you try to move out, you try to move straight in, you try to move in on a diagonal away from the kick, you try to lift the leg, you try to counter kick straight, you try to counter kick to the support leg, try to press the knee, if too much force you use the press just as a spacer to move yourself away by an inch. Over time by getting kicked enough you get the distance down better so that you have the time to pull off the above. This is training to get used to the low Thai kick in a combative situation of general sparring.

Into the general sparring mix you throw other kicks, punches, clinches, knees, headlocks, waist grabs, sweeps and takedowns but those are less intense then the roundhouse kick. The goal for your partner is to make the roundhouse kick work. The other stuff doesn’t matter. Your goal is to minimize the damage of the roundhouse, the other stuff doesn’t matter.

You go on the net and tell people your experience and ask for some advice or try to get people to share their experience. Some people tell you that you are stupid. So you tell them to get lost. Others tell you it is personal find your own way. Others tell you to just keep doing it. Some people offer their advice and experiences. Some people offer some new ideas so you go and try those.

Taking this idea into chi sau, your partner can have the goal to grab your throat. The main goal is to grab your throat. Substitute that with a foot sweep headlock or anything else. That’s put into the general mix with everything else but the only thing that counts is to pull off that attack and to counter that attack.

Then create a distance, and move in, your goal is to implement that chi sau attack. Somehow you are moving in to pull off that attack.

In Karate one person got everyone with a low grab to the groin. That was this guys main move. It was mixed into the general sparring mix but that was the finishing move. You knew sooner or later he would get the groin it in. It was only a matter of time. At first you know exactly what’s coming but you can’t stop it.

When I first started sparing in Karate as a white belt against the Blue belts, the stuff was just too fast. This blue belt only did a roundhouse kick but it was too fast to stop.

In Escrima the teacher would whack you everywhere at high speed he only had one speed which was fast. That’s how he learned, that’s how he taught. Over time the speed didn’t seem as fast. Someone who trained with him for 10 years and teaches his art told me that he still can’t deal with his speed. He said the teacher is just too fast.

Although most knife training is unrealistic it might be useful for the guy with the knife as he trains to counter every counter attempt move. One drill is to just go up and down the floor stabbing and poking from all angles. Your job is to only touch without getting cut. His job is to counter the touch by cutting the arm, by poking to a new angle. When you hit the wall, do a disarm and trade roles. In real a knife is rarely seen, it’s only felt. But it’s fun and just another way to train Wing Chun hand reflexes and footwork.

Ernie

11-02-2004, 04:15 PM

good stuff -- isolated sparring working on idividual skills then putting them back in the mix

the most important thing is , being creative and experiencing different things

now if some one were to come out and say well i would do this or that or my sifu do this or that
yet had not tried it themselves
i would not think much of there view

one thing i would like to add one should not think technique , think more how the body generates that line of attack , what it needs to be effective and work on removing that

YongChun

11-02-2004, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
one thing i would like to add one should not think technique , think more how the body generates that line of attack , what it needs to be effective and work on removing that

If I work on removing what is effective, then I'm not going to be left with much.

Hey this thread is starting to fizzle out, I guess everyone is busy voting. I'll be watching that tonight.

Ray

Ernie

11-02-2004, 04:34 PM

ray--If I work on removing what is effective, then I'm not going to be left with much.

remove what is effective for the opponent to use there body to generate power

and use it makes things alot easier that way

peace man

let this thread rest in peace ;)

lets see what the future brings

Tydive

11-02-2004, 06:01 PM

I like to use stress overload training. After finding an area that needs improvement and a partner who is better than you are at that skill. Set up some ground rules on what you are trying to accomplish so it does not degenerate into a bash fest, then slowly ramp up the pressure until you go into spaz mode or freeze. Once you have been overloaded back off to discuss what caused the overload. Then slowly work up the pace/pressure again.

This works much better if you have a coach who can watch and give pointers on what is causing you to lose it. I also advocate using a video camera and doing a debrief with someone who can give you constructive criticisim. Make sure you take notes (and review them), it is easy to forget the little tips and fall back into bad habits.

Ernie

11-02-2004, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Tydive
I like to use stress overload training. After finding an area that needs improvement and a partner who is better than you are at that skill. Set up some ground rules on what you are trying to accomplish so it does not degenerate into a bash fest, then slowly ramp up the pressure until you go into spaz mode or freeze. Once you have been overloaded back off to discuss what caused the overload. Then slowly work up the pace/pressure again.

This works much better if you have a coach who can watch and give pointers on what is causing you to lose it. I also advocate using a video camera and doing a debrief with someone who can give you constructive criticisim. Make sure you take notes (and review them), it is easy to forget the little tips and fall back into bad habits.

B_I_N_G_O

yep and after every session we all sit down and give our perspective on what we felt and what it felt like , we tell the other person what they were doing and what it looked like from our end
so next time we can tighten things up

i will be leaving in a few to go coach a few guys on exactly what you brought up

always try and have 3 percpectives
what you think you are doing and why
what the recieveing party thinks is going on
and what the coach sees

this keeps it honest with no ego
real family mindset with each persons best interest at heart

great post man

t_niehoff

11-03-2004, 06:36 AM

Ernie wrote:

i feel we each have to make out own way , but we can all help each other

**That's a nice thought but I think we can only help those that are looking for the same things as us.

so what i think may or may not be right what T thinks may or may not be right
it's group effort

**Yup, and I've been wrong many times but I keep examining, questioning, analyzing, testing, thinking, etc. -- continually trying to increase my performance level. I'll listen to anyone producing results (it may help me produce results). In the same vein, I don't want to waste my time listening to "theoreticians" argue how this or that should produce results.

so everyone's voice has equal wieght
i just ask people to break down there statements and support them with proven training methods

**That's exactly right -- I don't mind anyone making claims, just provide the evidence (results) to back them up.

not just --well chi sau has it all --- or at my school we don't have that problem , or when you find good wing chun blah blah blah

just support it that's all

**IMO a great many people in WCK are lost in chi sao, lost in "history", lost in myths, lost in lineage, lost in "streetfighting", etc. -- focusing on everything except what matters: results.

and what one persons views as results may not be the same as another

**Therein lies the problem -- fighters like wrestlers, boxers, bjjers, muay thai'ers, MMAists, etc. all have the same idea of what results are (increased fighting performance with their method); nonfighters have all kinds of "different views".

Regards,

Terence

CFT

11-03-2004, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**Therein lies the problem -- fighters like wrestlers, boxers, bjjers, muay thai'ers, MMAists, etc. all have the same idea of what results are (increased fighting performance with their method); nonfighters have all kinds of "different views".Yes, because they all have a forum for testing their training methodology - and the results are normally clear cut.

So how does someone who doesn't take part in these competitions validate their training? How can Ernie really test his training except get in dangerous streetfights?

You can set goals, train attributes to achieve these goals, but the crunch is in the actual real life testing. During training your partners aren't really trying to kill you - ideally lots of pressure applied to force you to adapt and take it to the next level.

But outside of the training environment, how do you test what you've done and against whom?

I think there have been some really good ideas thrown up in this thread, and "common sense" seems largely to have come to the fore. But there needs to be honesty about testing as well as training too. I hope I have made the distinction between the two clearly enough.

Ultimatewingchun

11-03-2004, 09:34 AM

I don't really pay much attention anymore to the testing process used in TWC - in terms of testing my students - and I've never been in a big hurry to continue testing towards the final Master Level for myself - having achieved the Level 10 Gold Sash and a few other grades after that (now at Provisional Master Level 3)...

but the testing process model that William Cheung originally instituted - not without it's flaws...nonetheless...contained a few things worth mentioning in the context of this thread.

Many martial arts of all denominations have covered the bases I'm going to mention - but I don't think many WC systems/lineages have done so (and certainly not in terms of actual gradings/certificates/sash's being given out - for I realize that few WC lineages actually have continous gradings and ranks other than student/sifu/Master)...

but TWC tests usually contained not just the performance of forms, punching, kicking, attacking techniques, chi sao, wooden dummy, footwork, combat techniques against this or that kind of punch or kick being thrown at you, random cross-arm sparring, etc....

but also...self defense techniques against such things as a headlock, bear hug, chokes, someone grabbing your arms, grabs from behind, a knife or club coming at you this way or that way, vs. multiple opponent's, etc.

Not saying all this to toot William Cheung/TWC's horn - for in fact I think the testing process has never really lived up to it's potential - and has been plagued by too many flaws and watered-down changes through the years...

but the point is - working against these other "reality" situations on a frequent basis (beyond forms, chi sao, wooden dummy - even sparring)..."reality situations" wherein a knife might be coming at you, or you've been bear hugged from behind, or someone is choking you, or there are three guys coming at you, etc...

is key to your martial arts training - as Ernie and some of the other folks who've posted on this thread have pointed out so clearly, and at times eloquently.
Just because you train these things in a controlled setting wherein serious injuries are avoided doesn't mean that this kind of training is worthless; on the contrary, where would you be on the street if you had ZERO time spent working these scenarios - and all of a sudden - there it is - a knife, or a group of hostile guys are staring you in the face, or someone comes from nowhere and puts you in a rear bearhug?

And there's no place to run? You have to fight! To you want to at least try and be prepared? Or do you want to plead for just a chi sao match instead?

Ernie

11-03-2004, 09:44 AM

CFT

You can set goals, train attributes to achieve these goals

Yep ,
That is really what it comes down to , not how to out kick a kicker or out punch a puncher , this is the ring and mat one on one same tools against same tools , competition mentality , just as useless as wing chun vs wing chun , except there is more realistic levels of pressure ,

Better to work off guys that are singular minded , ring and mat guys and learn to circumvent there game under there pressure , this way you learn to read and pick up cues one what people favor and you just take there game away from them , the better you get at that the better you develop the ability read body language and intent of attack , this is much more conducive in a street situation then just squaring up and trying to out gun the other dude .

Hard times come when you mess with good MMA they have more then one game plan , but most tend to favor a certain aspect just got to break it down ,

But even all this is still just a game , like moving from machines to free weights your increasing the load but still on the same motion

In the end all you can work on is your attributes , speed , power , timing , distance , and adjustability

The rest is up to luck

Interesting dialogue people

YongChun

11-03-2004, 10:15 AM

I think the most important factors in a fight are speed and strength (includes conditioning) with technique a third. But I think the order of importance when learning is technique first where positioning , sensitivity and timing are a part. Speed and strength are last. The analogy is you learn to control and drive a car first and then you can put your foot on the accelerator and floor it to go whatever speed you can.

Many people are still at the technique level and don't know how to control the car yet and so they can't go too fast otherwise they will have a serious accident. They are not yet ready to drive in the rain, in the fog, in the night or on ice let alone in a high speed car chase. A lot of discussion is at this technical control the car level and that should not be mixed with the driving in a race type of discussions.

The Gracies said this another way. One of them said if you weigh less than 180 pounds then you will not be strong enough but if you weigh more than 190 you will not be fast enough. I think the guy saying it was 185. Of course you can argue a bit with the numbers. I found this to be true from my own experience. Against a smaller guy they just don't have the strength to get out of some holds. Against a larger Jujitsu guy I had a match with, he just couldn't get into position fast enough to control my standard wrestling moves.

Again, a modern trained athlete can be both very big and very strong so that argument breaks down in those cases. In high school a friend and myself beat a lot of people bigger than ourselves in shotput because we had better mechanics, better technique. However at an Olympic level those guys are bigger, faster , stronger and have better technique. So the smaller guy is just out of luck.

In real fighting the equalizer is the weapon which can include the gun, the knife, a stick, brass knuckles, mace, tactics with projectiles (salt, acid, hot tea), friends helping you or whatever. In sports fighting your trained attributes play the biggest part.

Ray