Traditional TCMA, or Sham??

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, TCMA bashing seems to be a big thing here, so I want to throw out a theory. My therory is that MOST of what is *Called* TCMA is really VERY modern. Yes, the art may be really old, but in the last 50-60 years or so the *Way* it is taught has changed so drastically that it has been rendered useless.

I feel Forms are tools, not things to be collected. They should be broken down, drilled against nonresisting opponets and progress to resisting opponents.

It seems that in order to make sure what you do works, you need to test against other schools, styles and fighters. I think in the old days, this was not only done, but it was the main stay of the teachings.

What many today "Call" TCMA however is very different from that. You learn forms, and more forms, and more forms. Yes you are conditioned very well, and I feel there is great bennifit from things like stance training, but there is too much of that, and not enough of the "Nitty Gritty".

I think that all those forms based schools with the "Secrets" who claim to be "Traditional" are infact VERY modern, and NOT tradtional in the least.

Comments anyone?

[David Jamieson]

I don't know really. That wasn't my experience and while forms are used to teach, I don't think they are necessarily the mainstay of a great many programs.

They are essentially the "lab" class of Kungfu. But you still, in most schools that I know of, breakdown forms, extrapolate the techniques and drill them.

You still have a lot of sparring that goes on according to the level of skill of the student and you have your competitions and events that are open to any schools that choose to enter.

Every school out there has an opportunity to organize their own event and to invite all the other schools. This goes on with some frequency.

Organizing full contact fighting matches in Canada is not an easy thing to do. The Laws are quite stifling up here in Canada in regards to that and the costs are tremendous and often ground an event before it can get wings. So, we get forms comps, push hands, continuous sparring and point sparring and if you wanna do some "for real" sparring, you're pretty much relegated to keeping it fairly secretive and off the radar of the local law enforcement peeps. :p

But, with the time, money and resources, these things can be organized. As the Nike ads say" just do it".

Don't wait for someone else to do it for you. If it gains momentum, the new idea will fit in with the mainstream and old will become new again.

[Dark Knight]

It seems that in order to make sure what you do works, you need to test against other schools, styles and fighters. I think in the old days, this was not only done, but it was the main stay of the teachings.

I just bought Green Dragons Q&A tape on eBay (Sifu John Allen can talk) He said in China they did a no rules event up until the 1930's. I don’t know if it is true, but he seems to be very knowledgeable.


I think that all those forms based schools with the "Secrets" who claim to be "Traditional" are infact VERY modern, and NOT tradtional in the least.

Here in the US we train differently, with the advent of good training equipment in the late 70's we started better training with protective gear (better than what we were doing prior) There are many schools that teach forms and techniques but do not try to apply it against a resisting opponent.
I have met many older people who were in the arts 30 years or more ago, they talk about when they would spar heavy contact with no gear. 10 years ago I trained with a guy who trained in Okinawa, he like to teach that way, we sparred with no pads. It was not a lot of fun all the time but I learned alot.


I feel Forms are tools, not things to be collected. They should be broken down, drilled against nonresisting opponets and progress to resisting opponents.

I think they were, but in order to keep enrollment up many schools got away from it. I know a couple schools that are easy on the students until black belt. Then they start training with harder contact.

Different concepts on training.

How good you will be is based on how hard you train. Too many schools dont train on strength enough, or the indivuals dont train on it on their own. Then reality training comes in, I agree the forms should be broken down and drilled against a resistiong oponent (work up to it of course)

[Waxwood rod]

You want traditional? Stand in horse stance for five years. Then smash your fist on hard surface repetitively until well conditioned.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't think that is traditional at all, I think crap like that is modern legends that are part of the sham

[lkfmdc]

threads like this spread dangerous ideas that can not be tolerated, you will be reported to the secret council of ancient masters who keep secrets, your name will be noted, they will send ninjas to get you....

you have been warned

[Shaolinlueb]

forms are useless they dont help anyone, blah blah blah, san da rules!

[lkfmdc]

eh, what do you expect from a guy who believes in Shaolin monks? Do you believe in the Easter bunny also?

[norther practitioner]

shhh,

we keep him under the stairs until it is time for class... you should have seen him when we told him that there is no tooth fairy.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!!

[slobo]

He said in China they did a no rules event up until the 1930's. I don’t know if it is true, but he seems to be very knowledgeable.

He is right. In Nanjing around 1930 there was a no rule tournament where the opponents died often because of heavy injury. No weight category and yes no rules at all. First the challengers had to compete in their districts and those that won these preleminary fights could finally compete in Nanjing.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by slobo
He is right. In Nanjing around 1930 there was a no rule tournament where the opponents died often because of heavy injury. No weight category and yes no rules at all. First the challengers had to compete in their districts and those that won these preleminary fights could finally compete in Nanjing.

That's an exaggeration, no one died.

In 1928, one year after Chiang Kai Shek was able to unify China under his rule, the first national competition was held in Nanjing

There were two rules, no eye gouging and no groin striking. Being Confucian and all, they didn't want groin strikes that could mean a man couldn't have children and pass on his family line

It was a round robin event, everyone fought everyone in the first round. But at the end of that round, everyone was so messed up that they couldn't continue. They actually asked the particpants to vote on who they thought might win...

Death in these sorts of things was rare. Many times, a guy would just bow out after one exchange, conceeding he was matched against someone better.

Chan Tai San is only aware of one guy that died in a military sparring championship over something like a 10 year period.

He says no one died in the Guangdong provincial sparring championships, but did say a lot got injured so after the first round you usually only had 6 to 8 guys left standing

In Guangdong these is a little book published that is like a sports and current news almanac. It had provincial sparring results in it. Chan Tai San showed me one from the 1950's, we were kinda shocked he didn't take first, but he said the guy he lost to was extremely good, he also beat Lei Fei San, our sifu's senior.

We were really interested in what the guy did, how he fought, but Chan Tai San didn't give us much details, he just said the guy did Xing Yi, only practiced 6 techniques over and over again but that when he hit, he hit HARD...

[Royal Dragon]

So, the so called "Traditional" schools aren't traditional after all. Looks like in the old days they actually FOUGHT, no rules like early UFC

Thanks ross

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
So, the so called "Traditional" schools aren't traditional after all. Looks like in the old days they actually FOUGHT, no rules like early UFC

Thanks ross

NO problem, that's what I'm here for ....

[Lowlynobody]

So, the so called "Traditional" schools aren't traditional after all. Looks like in the old days they actually FOUGHT, no rules like early UFC

I wonder how many times thats been said before?

[Dark Knight]

david

Is ther any other information on these out there? Anything on line or books?

Thanks

[lkfmdc]

It's a passing reference in a number of books, the one by Draeger and Smith "comprehensive something"...

I think Yang Jwing Ming has talked about it in his long fist book...

The best stuff is still, sadly, all in Chinese....

[SaekSan]

If you go to this page:

http://users2.ev1.net/~stma/Gu02.html

All the way towards the bottom under "The First National Tournament - Nanjing, 1928 ". There's some info on the tournament. It is somewhat biased towards Gu Ru-zhang but it gives a little insight into the era.