What about HST + a day of triples or fives or something?

[IronFist]

What if you were to do the normal HST program, except on the third workout of each week instead of doing the normal HST routine you did 3 sets of 3 with like 80-90% 1RM? Would that work? Or would that be like shooting yourself in the foot.

HST = Full body workout three times a week, Squat, Bench, back exercise triceps exercise, biceps exercise, shrugs, calves, whatever. First two weeks = 2 sets of 15, next two weeks = 2 sets of 10, next two weeks = 2 or 3 sets of 5, next two weeks = 2 sets of negatives or something but I never do that part cuz I dont' have a consistent training partner. Anyway, you increase the weight each workout by like 5lbs or whatever and then sometimes by 10lbs in the 10 reps and 5 reps times.

So anyway, is that a good idea up there? Or would adding a day of triples be counter productive and I'd make no gains in either part?

So like:

Tue: HST
Thu: HST
Sat: 3x3

[Ford Prefect]

HST = Hypertrophy Specific Training?

From the looks of the routine, adding triples might be a little counter productive. I figure the reason why they cycle the way they do is to prevent CNS burnout, and if you were to add a heavy session every week, you could possibly be messing with their scheme. I wouldn't say that you'd make no gains, but the long term gains of a program like that would be limitted by the additional weekly heavy day. Maybe after the 2 sets of 5's week, you could add a singles and doubles week instead of negatives...

In my ecto-journey, I've never had a huge chest. About 7 weeks ago, I started benching 3x/week and now I'm actually filling in more. I kind of don't even like it because I feel top heavy at times. It helps with catching the cleans though. It sucks. I have permantently bruised collar bones from all the cleans, jerks, and front squats I've been doing. Those are 3x/week too...

[IronFist]

Yeah I think that's what HST stands for.

I was thinking the way I had it set up might be less CNS fatigue than the normal way. Does 3 sets of 3 @ 80-90% 1RM put more stress on the CNS than two sets of 15 @ 50-60%? So I figured by replacing a day of two sets of 15 with 3 sets of 3 that would actually be less stressful on my body. Maybe not. I know heavy weights are more stressful than lighter weights, but I figured the difference in reps and time under tension would make up for it. 30 reps total per exercise vs. 9? I dunno.

Isn't that similar to what Westside does? They have a heavy (max effort?) day each week. Granted, to even be invited to their gym you have to already be an elite level lifter (read: good genetics), but still. I really have no desire to train Westside style but I thought I would point out this similiarity(?).

[fa_jing]

It seems that if you are going to use a canned routine, you wouldn't want to make a major change like that. You can't go for everything at once anyway.


Hey Ford, would you give us a training/progress update? Are you focusing on OLY? Are you getting coached? What happened to the Rugby thing?

[Ford Prefect]

Iron,

Not really the same thing as WSBB. They cycle exercises and rep schemes in order to stay fresh. It's more like combining your 3x3 workout, the sets of 15 and sets of 10 all into one workout.

Fa Jing,

My main focus is on Oly Lifting right now. My hip flexability is crazy now and I'm feeling really good. Overhead squats are like a walk in the park now. It took a while to get used to doing the oly lifts, squats, dl'ing, and benching 3x/week. I can do heavy full snatches, cleans, dl's, front squats, overhead squats, and benching in one session and not even be remotely sore the next day now. Then I go back and do it again the day after... I'm still training lightly for the field sports, but I'll ramp that up more once the winter ends. Right now I'm boxing again and doing soem indoor rock climbing.

[IronFist]

Oh, I forgot to say. The whole reason I was going to do it like that was so I could do heavy DLs in my cycle. Due to a recent back injury I want to begin DL'ing again.

So I was thinking something like this:

Tue: HST - squat, bench, triceps, biceps, shrugs, calves
Thu: HST - squat, bench, triceps, biceps, shrugs, calves
Sat: 3x3 - DL, bench, and then maybe back to HST for my underdeveloped arms.

Back work was left out because my lats, like my shoulders, grow from looking at weights.

So, I want to squat because I want a big squat and I want bigger quads. DL gives me practically no quad work, and just DL'ing makes my squat go down, so I don't want to not squat at all. So, I need some way to do both that won't impede on the progress of either. Any suggestions?

[fa_jing]

"I can do heavy full snatches, cleans, dl's, front squats, overhead squats, and benching in one session and not even be remotely sore the next day now."

wtf

I did DL for just one heavy workset on Sunday, followed by Squat with just 2 worksets. Reps were all 6 or less. I can barely walk still, and it has been 48 hours. Effort level was high, however. Quads, back, and inner thighs are toast.

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah. I had to start with only 2 workouts/week for a month. I had to cut out any extra leg work completely. No sprinting, cone drills, jogging, etc. Then I was able to bump to 3x/week for a month and still no extra leg work. Now I'm at a point where I can do 3x/week and do extra sprint/leg work in low volume. Hopefully by december, I'll be going full tilt again.

Honestly, I've never been able to recover this quickly from workouts before. I'm astonished with the work I'm able to do on such a consistent basis. I still have to go light maybe once every two weeks because I can feel my body heading towards chaos.

[fa_jing]

yeah, sounds like you had a real good base of general conditioning to start with. A backoff week every 4 weeks or so is a good idea, so I hear. It definitely works for me, but I seem to only take a back-off week out of necessity.

Of course, a bit less intensity will go along way in terms of getting more exercises in. I was surprised recently though. I warmed up with power snatches among other things, then when I went to try some cleans I was surprised how much I power I had lost in the warmup. I've had the same experience doing some moderate deadlifting, not going anywhere near a rep max in any set, then not being able to power snatch at all afterward. I don't necessarily have to feel a painful fatigue in order for this to be the case.

Anyway, sounds like a serious athlete's workout you have there, Ford. Seems like alot of top athletes do a surprising amount of volume in their workouts.

[Ford Prefect]

lol! I wouldn't ever confuse myself with a serious athlete. ;) I just enjoy seeing what I can get my body to do. (no jokes pervs) My typical workout looks like:

Warm-up with the bar
Snatch exercise (power and full variations) 5x1-5 rep range
Clean exercise (power and full versions) 5x1-5 rep range
Clean or Snatch DL 5x1-5 rep range
Overhead press (jerk, press, etc) 5x1-5 rep range
Front or Back Squat 5x1-5 rep range
Overhead Squat 5x1-5 rep range
Bench variations 3-5x1-10 rep range
Mon-Wed-Fri

I make steady progress in all the lifts and always have enough in the tank to attack the bar for every exercise. It took a bit to get here though. During that first month, I could pretty much push it to the max every day with only 2x/week workout. When I started 3x/week, I'd take a wokout every 2 weeks and use light weight and on some occasions I'd cut out a set of an exercise or do another exercise with light weight. I just went by how my body felt. Maybe in 3 months or so, I'll be able to fo balls to the wall every workout and every day with extra work.

Still, I have to balance this with at least 8 hours/day at work and keeping the wife and my friends happy, so my total work probably encompasses the total warm-up time a serious athlete uses in a week...

Iron,

I'd probably just a DL on after the squat in the regular workout. 3x3 whouldn't be too bad. Cycle the weight in weekly waves.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I just enjoy seeing what I can get my body to do. (no jokes pervs)*Quietly closes raincoat and slinks away*

At the end of my PTP cycles I'm pretty much stuffed. I couldn't do much more volume. I used to do squat and deadlift in the same cycle, but dropped that because I was getting fatigued. But it worked before I was pushing my 5RMs. I did dead first IIRC. I find dead harder, so that's probably why (plus I can cheat on squat if I feel I'm not gunna make it).

I wish I could do oly lifts :(.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
lIron,

I'd probably just a DL on after the squat in the regular workout. 3x3 whouldn't be too bad. Cycle the weight in weekly waves.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

[FatherDog]

Hey, Ford's back! Good to see you, FP.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by IronFist
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Would you DL after squat every workout (3 times per week), or just once a week?

For some reason I feel like that will be overkill, especially as the weights get higher toward the end of the HST program. DL'ing after 2 sets of 15 on squat will suck.

I dunno, DL'ing rules but I want the quad size and strength that comes from squatting. We'll see I guess.

[Ford Prefect]

You could put it in front of squatting if you like for 1 or 2 workouts/week. Make sure that some upperbody exercise is between the squat-dl, or you'll be too wiped. Doing weekly waves will make sure you never burn out.

wk 1: 80%
wk2: 90%
wk 3: 85%
wk 4: 95%

Wk5: 80% (+ some weight)
... repeat weeks with added weight.

Doing it before the squat and seperating the two with some upperbody work will ensure that you can still wear out the legs with squatting.

Dunno. That's the way I'd do it.

[unixfudotnet]

Your muscles may need more time to heal than that, especially for full body, otherwise you are just burning the muscle that you torn up and is healing from last time. So you may be counter productive. Two full body workouts 2 times a week spread out with like 3 days, may be better, and work cardio and some resistance (the martial art fake kind) stuff may be a better idea to do the other days, with one day of total rest, or light run or something in the morning.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet
Your muscles may need more time to heal than that, especially for full body, otherwise you are just burning the muscle that you torn up and is healing from last time. So you may be counter productive. Two full body workouts 2 times a week spread out with like 3 days, may be better, and work cardio and some resistance (the martial art fake kind) stuff may be a better idea to do the other days, with one day of total rest, or light run or something in the morning.

Depends on the volume of each workout. Bulgarians bench press up to 11 times per week. It's very possible to do a full body workout 5 days a week and not even come close to overtraining.

[unixfudotnet]

Oh ok, cool :)

Learn something new everyday :D

[IronFist]

^ Cool.

Yeah, traditional, big volume each-bodypart-once-per-week bodybuilding routines would kill you if you tried to do them every day because the volume is so high. But lower volume stuff can be done every day.

Examples:

Traditional bodybuilding chest routine:
Bench press - 3 sets of 10
Incline bench press - 2 sets of 10
DB flies - 2 sets of 10
Cable crossovers - 3 sets of 10
Each with like 1-2 minutes rest.

^ Or something like that. If you tried to do that every day you would overtrain very quickly.

Lower volume powerlifting routine:
Bench press - 2 sets of 5
5 minutes rest between sets

^ You could probably do that every day and not be overtrained. In fact, you would make better gains by doing it frequently than by doing it once per week.

In fact, you could probably do a set of 1 rep every hour for an 8 hour period during the day and make good strength gains, too. I don't know, tho, I'm just speculating. But I've heard of programs similar to this before, so...

[Toby]

Originally posted by IronFist
It's very possible to do a full body workout 5 days a week and not even come close to overtraining. Like me :D.