Martial Artist's Five Rings

[Gunnar]

Martial Artist's Five Rings.

Has anyone read this book? Thoughts/Reflections?


Thanks!

[MoreMisfortune]

is that Go Rin No Sho (spell?) by Musashi?
if it is, i seriously didnt understand no nothing
too metaphorical imho

[norther practitioner]

It was pretty good. Sort of cliche`, but definitily worth the read.

[Wilson]

Great, very concise, book on strategy. Will teach you something different each time you read it. Not a light read, you will have to put some thought into it. But if you do, you can get a lot out of it.

[tug]

Words to live by...

[Gunnar]

Thanks guys! I have to give that a read!

[Vash]

Bah. Just get the free translation (http://www.samurai.com/5rings/) .

Much better than these targeted translations.

[Vash]

Indeed.

Personally, I'm tired of these "targeted translations," the Martial Artist's Go Rin No Sho, The Businessman's Art of War, et al. Read the original, or as close as you can get. Something is always lost in the translation, and the more you translate, the more you lose.

[GeneChing]

I did my Provost at arms thesis on the Book of Five Rings as applied to modern fencing. That was back in the mid-80's and there were only two English translations available, Harris and I'm blanking on the other one at this moment. I've had to work with the translations since I don't read Japanese.

At the time, I was really into Musashi's work. I've engaged some of the more recent translations - I've always been a big fan of Thomas Cleary's work so I had to read his take on it. Frankly, I haven't been too impressed by martial artist versions where some modern master makes commentaries (then again, that's exactly what I did for my thesis). Later, I got more into the work of Musashi's teacher, Takuan Soho's Unfettered Mind - Takuan was a zen monk who named that yellow pickle that the Japanese are so fond of, so his work is more about zen than strictly swordsmanship, so I find it more applicable. Musashi's work is a bit repetative - constantly saying "you must practice this" but often, what he's refering to is elusive. From a tactical level, there are moments of brilliance, stuff like driving your opponents into furniture (something you don't see in no-holds-barred fighting but always see in real street scenarios). I also enjoy his analogy of swordsmanship to carpentry, although I'm a horrible carpenter so it was a reserved enjoyment.

I think there is a distinct difference between swordsmen and empty-hand martial artists, both philosophically and strategically. People often retort that 'my whole body is a weapon' or something like such, but I still maintain that there's something more to sword, something Jungian perhaps (or even Freudian). I've yet to be able to nail this down very well yet - still working on it - but I bring it up here because I think Musashi's work applies more to swordsmen than other martial arts. I think any martial artist can get something out of it, but swordsmen get far more. I'd also say that about Musashi's paintings.

BTW, I saw a new biography of Musashi in one of the many book catalogs I get sent. It just occured to me that I should put that on my Xmas list.

[mantis108]

But I have to slightly disagreed. The fact that the book is named after the five elements (Earth/center of gravity & balance, Water/hydrolic movements or leverage, Fire/explosiveness, Wind/cardio vascular and Void/one minded or no mindedness) is a deliberate design IMHO to remind the reader that it applies directly to any and all physcial activities/events be it martial or otherwise. Of course his pirority was about fencing. The only problem is today people are conditioned to approach it through a philosophical perspective. While it is okay to treat it as an academic study, you don't quite get the full benefit of it that way. That's why Cleary just doesn't quite do it for me.

Personally, I like Victor Harris (?) translated verson better. He has a Kendo background and could provide a bit better insights. He also provided glimsp to Mushashi's arts works especially his paintings which give the readers a sense of Mushashi's spatial perception and a hint of how he would conduct an exchange.

About the NHB, they do drive the opponent into walls/cage fence and ground. I don't think it productive to take conceptual insights of fighting too literally. So it would apply to hand-to-hand as well IMHO.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[GeneChing]

The other Five Rings translation that I was trying to remember was the Bantam edition. I remember the edition I had had a cover of a samurai fighting a business man and was marketed primarily to businessmen. Book of Five Rings received a lot of attention in the West after Japan's post WWII economic boom in the 80's, because Westerners found that a lot of Japanese business men were well read in the text, so they started reading it. Ironically, in the 1987 film Wall Street, they used this idea, but changed the text to Sunzi's Art of War, despite the fact that no one was really looking at China as a business leader at the time (after all, its communist :eek: ). But that brought attention to Art of War and now there are probably more translations of that text than Five Rings. Go figure.

I should clarify my statement, mantis108, because I do agree with you that there's something in Five Rings for everyone who takes the time to really read into it. It can be universally applied. My point is that swordsmen get more out of it, since there are large sections that address specific moves in fencing. On an abstract level, it's all about timing and distance, but on a literal level, Musashi gives many direct examples of types of sword attacks which only a swordsman would appreciate. And I also like the Harris translation the most, it's a beautiful edition and very poetic, but I enjoy Cleary for his academic perspective. Also, the vast library of Cleary's other translations gives him a certain authority that I respect.

Speaking of Cleary, that new Musashi work is published by his publisher (one of my personal favs) Shambhala Books. Miyamoto Musashi (http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/1-59030-045-9.cfm) is on the top of my Xmas list. ;)