Bush Wins!!!!!

[rogue]

I'm going to bed but wanted to say it. And if I'm wrong so what?:p

[joedoe]

Just stirring the pot eh rogue? :D

[MoreMisfortune]

Bin Laden loves you rogue :)
he hopes you love him too :)

[themeecer]

Yeah baby!!! Talk about a range of emotions today. I am glad I can sleep good tonight. The grand ol party cleaned up on all fronts.

And if I am wrong I will deny it. :)

[FuXnDajenariht]

im movin to canada..... :p

[themeecer]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
im movin to canada..... :p

Awesome. :D

Actually .. I shouldn't pick on you ... I don't even know you. But it was fun to say that.

[Toby]

:( I can't believe that that chump is going to be re-elected.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

didnt some weird psychotic clairvoiant guy predict bush was going to win like two years ago and that it was going to bring the armageddon?

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Toby
:( I can't believe that that chump is going to be re-elected.

You misspelled that .... you meant to type 'champ.'

That is one reason he has won again. (And yes he did win the first time ... multiple recounts confirmed this.) People underestimate this man. They try to say he is unintelligent,
Bush had been admitted into Yale with an SAT score of 1206 which was low for Yale but perfectly respectable anywhere else. This would correlate to an approximate I.Q. of 129. In fact, a 1300 on the SAT would have been sufficient to join MENSA. So 1206 is a far cry from stupid.
Yes he made the middle of the class ... but this is Yale we are talking about ... not Billy Bob's trade school. Also there is the assumption that Bush was working hard to get on the Dean's List. And that's just not likely.

This type of labeling isn't anything new. Go back in your mind to all the republican presidential candidates you can remember and try to pick out even one that was not attacked on issues of his intelligence. The name calling is getting old folks, you bunch of poo poo heads.

[cerebus]

If shrub wins, the U.S. (and the rest of the world) will suffer. Not sure why themeecer hates all of humanity so much as to want this to happen, but some people are just like that. :(

[FuXnDajenariht]

its a confirmation that americans are warmongering redneck ignorant morons. true or not.... which i know isn't true

but your only as good as your president.....

everyone let their fears decide for them...again


omg! omg! the terrorists are gonna get us......the terrorists. vote for bush or where all gonna die!
:p

can't the blue states secede from the union? you know not permanent but just for 4 years?

i wouldnt be surprised if he did start WW3..... cuz....he iiis stupider than a chimp with brain damage. :o i know republicans can't admit it but i dont mind.

[rogue]

its a confirmation that americans are warmongering redneck ignorant morons.
I can live with that and the win. :D

BTW, it's Americans with a capital 'A'.

[FuXnDajenariht]

lmao

figures!

[Kristoffer]

Have fun pretending you live in the 'land of the free'

next stop, Iran

please remain seated

[FuXnDajenariht]

we can flip a coin for it....

or im open to a def jam fight for new york deathmatch. that game is totally shweet!

[Kristoffer]

Is it reallt good? Coz I've been thinking of getting it.

[FuXnDajenariht]

yea its freakin tight...

you really get ur moneys worth....like 2 games in one...

its like an rpg mixed with a wrestling/fighting game. you can buy up to 3 styles out of 5 and finishing moves plus some other stuff like tats and clothes....

dude....any game that has henry rollins as your trainer is alright wit me...

[omarthefish]

I think I'm gonna just hang out here in China for another 4 years. At least here they KNOW the media is full of ****.

:D

[cerebus]

Blah, blah, blah, blah... nothing worse than a whiner who thinks he's (finally) a winner (when he really isn't).

Funny how Florida voters have already reported thousands of problems with the touch screen voting machines. When people tried to vote for Kerry, the machine showed their selection as being for Bush. And it's one of Bush's buddies who's the CEO of the company that makes them. Quite a coincidence.....

[FuXnDajenariht]

does anyone live in ohio? is it true that bushies were going around suing and causing polling places to be shut down? i heard it on the news last night but on one elaborated....

[cerebus]

Wouldn't surprise me.

[Dark Knight]

Tires were slashed on vans the republicans were using to take people to the polls.

[cerebus]

Where? Where was this reported?

[David Jamieson]

Not sure why themeecer hates all of humanity so much as to want this to happen, but some people are just like that.

actually it's because he follows the cult of battle jesus bots. they pray to television evangelists and send them money for poorly read versions of the king james bible and have a side business manufacturing artillery shells that have "adios ya arab *******" engraved into each warhead.

:D

[Dark Knight]

Looks bad for Tom Daschle

[Shaolinlueb]

well for being the msot powerful country in the world, we have a high rate of people who cant read or write. maybe thats why bush is so popular? cause he is like those people :o

[David Jamieson]

Looks bad for Tom Daschle

Man, when hasn't it? :D

[FuXnDajenariht]

who is tom daschle?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I do not favor Bush, his tough-guy policies, or his obvious lack of common-sense.. i do not favor his fear-mongering, his manipulation of intelligence to support his personal agendas or his propensity for alienating former allies.. i am deeply disappointed in this nations lack of foresight, this election will adversely affect the nation for the next 20 years.......

But, i am an American.. and to the best of my ability and within the limits of my conscience, i will support and respect the Office of the President.. May the forces of the universe guide him wisely, and have mercy on this great nation..

Be well..

[David Jamieson]

May the forces of the universe guide him wisely, and have mercy on this great nation..

well it's about time you got some religion you hethen b@stard. :p

[norther practitioner]

May George reread the bible and realize that nowhere does it say bomb the F@CK out of a third world country. Or to lie...

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
well for being the msot powerful country in the world, we have a high rate of people who cant read or write. maybe thats why bush is so popular? cause he is like those people :o
Thank you ... you illustrated my point. You don't like our stance so you attack out intelligence. By the way.... I guess all the illiterate must live somewhere else. Quite honestly, the only people I have ever met who couldn't read and write were those under 3 and 4 years of age.

[norther practitioner]

I'll attack either... I'm nondiscriminatory.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
May George reread the bible and realize that nowhere does it say bomb the F@CK out of a third world country.
Unless you are a democrat. We won't say anything bad about you then.



Originally posted by norther practitioner
Or to lie...

Someone tell these people this. Notice the dates, all but one was made before George W. even came into office.

If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." Bill Clinton 02/17/98

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright 02/18/98

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspeect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to Clinton signed by Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry 10/9/98

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

[norther practitioner]

:o

I forgot, only the dems lie...

It's not that I'm against war in Iraq... I'm against the timing, did Saddam need to go.. yes... did he have to go right that second, probably not.

:rolleyes:

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by themeecer
Thank you ... you illustrated my point. You don't like our stance so you attack out intelligence. By the way.... I guess all the illiterate must live somewhere else. Quite honestly, the only people I have ever met who couldn't read and write were those under 3 and 4 years of age.

you live in KY, go to the cities. most of the unitelligent people have no clues on world events and what is going on. msot people believe bush is a mans man and vote for him ebcause of that. when infact bushs a coward who ran from doing duty in vietnam. so what if kerry protested vietnam when he got back, why? cause he saw some bad **** and didnt want our soldiers there anylonger then they had to be. but bush who never saw a day of combat wouldnt understand. most of these people dont even realize that the democrats plans would help them out more. half the people in the world arent even filled in on world events, maybe thats why the northeast and west coast voted mainly for kerry, cause they have a clue.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by norther practitioner

It's not that I'm against war in Iraq...
Good


Originally posted by norther practitioner
I'm against the timing, did Saddam need to go.. yes... did he have to go right that second, probably not.

:rolleyes:
Well, all those above mentioned people thought he should be. Heck if he is a potential threat down the road, why wait till he is even closer to having the weapons he needed. Why wait any longer after his troops daily shot surface to air missiles at US planes, or that Saddam boasted publicly that he paid cash rewards to Palestinians who strapped explosives on children's bodies for detonating in busy areas of Israel, or that Saddam's secret police tried to murder an American President, or that Saddam set up safe houses for the world's ugliest terrorists including Abu Nidal who ran terrorists attacks in 20 countries, a safe house for Abdul Yasin who attacked the World Trade Center in 1993? Put yourself in the position of the president ... if a madman may be trying to obtain nuclear weapons, and those weapons could fall into the hands of the terrorists sworn to destroy America, on what side do you err?

[Hard Fists]

Originally posted by themeecer
You misspelled that .... you meant to type 'champ.'

They try to say he is unintelligent,
Bush had been admitted into Yale with an SAT score of 1206 which was low for Yale but perfectly respectable anywhere else. This would correlate to an approximate I.Q. of 129. In fact, a 1300 on the SAT would have been sufficient to join MENSA. So 1206 is a far cry from stupid.


not quite sure where your getting your information. Bush has a below average IQ, and graduated with a "C" average from college. At least he picked a cabinet that is smarter than himself.

I just hope he doesn't do too much to screw things up before we get another Dem in office.

[red5angel]

It's not that I'm against war in Iraq... I'm against the timing, did Saddam need to go.. yes... did he have to go right that second, probably not.


That's an interesting statement. If not then, when did he deserve to go?

[Shaolinlueb]

http://www.foxnews.com/

article about the give up on main page.

[red5angel]

It's official, Bush won.

[count]

Ironic, isn't it? (http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html)

Say goodbye! (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html) :(

The people have spoken and the result is, we want more of the same. :rolleyes:

[rogue]

Ahh, 4 more years for the haters to wring their hands, dither and whine. Life is good.

Hey how about the youth of America proving yet again that they are spoiled and disengaged.
Just like when I was young and stupid. (http://http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/11/02/politics2059EST0779.DTL&type=printable)

I really love this quote from one of the totally young and clueless.

"It's definitely the war," said Eliana Deutsch, 20, of San Diego, explaining why she came out. "People see these soldiers who are 18 and don't have an education, and they're over there dying. It's really sad that that (the military) is their best option." Good to see the next generation of elitists are coming up to take their place. :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

ah, 4 more years of retarded conspiracy theories and whining.....

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Hard Fists
not quite sure where your getting your information. Bush has a below average IQ, and graduated with a "C" average from college. At least he picked a cabinet that is smarter than himself.

Well I sure didn't get my info from the bogus "Lovenstein Institute" that claimed he had a below average IQ. The email that reported this was a spoof. If you believed it I bet you are sitting there waiting for Bill Gates to share his fortune with you, that if you send every email forward you recieve to 10 people that a little angel will apear on your desktop, and your emails are helping little Billy who is sick.

Check out this link about Bush's IQ http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.htm

[red5angel]

although speaking of conspiracy theories, I find it interesting that CNN was reporting such a close race while everyone elses numbers were something completely different......

[mortal]

4 MORE YEARS! All you haters can kiss my A$$!!!! HAHAHAHA YES!!!!!!!!!

[IronFist]

Oh well, so much for making progress.

The religious fundamentalists that he appoints will also help put a halt to that.

Stem cell research? Curing diseases? Not for the next 4 years.

If you look at the map, all the bible bangers voted for Bush. It's funny how religion can be the deciding factor in determining one's vote.

[TaiChiBob]

BUSH WINS.. the nation loses.. oh well, we suffered through the last 4 years.. at least we're a strong nation, we can handle 4 more years, but.. the damage will last long after the Keebler Elf Cowboy leaves office.. ( he does look like one of the Keebler Elfs)..

Be well..

PS. Anyway, he's so easy to make fun of..

[lkfmdc]

http://www.cnn.com

"Sen. Kerry phoned President Bush today to concede the presidential election, a White House aide said. Kerry is expected to make a public statement at 1 p.m. ET and Bush is scheduled to speak at 3 p.m. ET. Bush has 254 electoral votes to Kerry's 252, according to CNN projections, with 270 needed to win. Key state Ohio, with 20 electoral votes, hasn't completed its vote tally."

Please say this is true, I can't live through 5 weeks of contested election again....

[IronFist]

Originally posted by red5angel
although speaking of conspiracy theories, I find it interesting that CNN was reporting such a close race while everyone elses numbers were something completely different......

Indeed. Last night I saw on NBC (I think) that it was 269 to 207 Bush. But right now CNN is saying 254 to 252.

[Icewater]

House: Win.
Senate: Win.
Governor: Win.
Presidency: Win.

America has spoken, and spoken loudly. Welcome to 4 years of a total partisan government. Now... return the liberal whining to the background white noise and lets get back to killing terrorists.

[red5angel]

actually it's quite understandable why one would vote based on religion, if you were a religious person. If you have a lot of faith in a system of beliefs, then you probably feel it's the right way to go. You'd be protective of the environment you live in, since you'd understandably want it to fit into your religious world view. You'd vote for a man who believes, in theory, the same things you do because then you know your world would more align with the values you buy in to.

[old jong]

Originally posted by lkfmdc


Please say this is true, I can't live through 5 weeks of contested election again....

Think about the rest of the world who will have to deal with 4 additional long years under the menace.


America has spoken, and spoken loudly. Welcome to 4 years of a total partisan government. Now... return the liberal whining to the background white noise and lets get back to killing terrorists.

You mean killing children in Irak?...


BUSH WINS.. the nation loses.. oh well, we suffered through the last 4 years.. at least we're a strong nation, we can handle 4 more years, but.. the damage will last long after the Keebler Elf Cowboy leaves office.. ( he does look like one of the Keebler Elfs)..

If they would rewrite "Dallas" I would easily cast him as J.R. Ewing's little retarded brother!

My condoleances to the world.

[Andy62]

I am not into religion,but if the choice is between them and Michael Moore, Whoopee Goldberg, Bruce Springsteen and Howard Stern -I say bring them on!

[mortal]

"You mean killing children in Irak?..."

First of all learn how to spell.

What about the children the terrorists kill! At least we don't target them on purpose.

The American people have spoken. A trader to our troops from any war will NEVER be President of this country.

[rogue]

I'd be offended by that OJ, but you're Canadian, do WC and eat that funny stuff made with french fries, so it's OK.:D

[mortal]

You better watch you're back Canada. You're children could be next. lololo You guys are so jealous of our great country.

Kiss my A$$!


4 More years of keeping the terrorists on the run!
Killem all!

[themeecer]

Originally posted by old jong
Think about the rest of the world who will have to deal with 4 additional long years under the menace.

Just don't harbor terrorists and you will be ok. Period.




Originally posted by old jong
If they would rewrite "Dallas" I would easily cast him as J.R. Ewing's little retarded brother!

My condoleances to the world.
Once again the attacks on intelligence, contrary to what the evidence shows.

[red5angel]

You mean killing children in Irak?...

LOL! that's right, all those US soldiers are busy killing the children of Iraq instead of fighting islamic extremists and guerillas.

Being from a country who does next to nothing in the larger world picture, any sort of statement like this holds a bit of irony.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by mortal
"You mean killing children in Irak?..."

First of all learn how to spell..........

........The American people have spoken. A trader to our troops from any war will NEVER be President of this country.

Take your own advice and do a spell check once in a while. It's traitor not trader. Although we have traded much in the last 4 years. So vietnam was a good idea? Man!, people will walk into the same wall over and over again.

Its amazing how many party line sheep there are in this country. And before anyone starts on me, let me say I'm an independent voter, and to me is was A.B.B the way.

So the sheep have their shepard, march on. Say goodbye to your kids, the draft is coming.

4 more years may not kill us, but we will surely pay in the future. Say hello to a huge deficit, a bloated military budget and a lojack in every forehead. Hail! Big Brother.

[Icewater]

You mean killing children in Irak?...

Hey buddy, try to remember your an American. If you don't like that, I'm sure the insurgents in Iraq could use another headless victim while you explain how our retaliation to their (how did Kerry put it? ah yes, 'nuisance') killing of thousands of Americans was unjust.

[Ford Prefect]

Something is inherintly wrong with the Democratic party here. To whine about results and bash Bush only tries to cover this fact. They need to not only return the party back towards the center, but also the public image of the party. The leadership needs to distance themselves from radicals like Moore, or they should expect more of the same in the next elections. Wake up, Democrats. Nobody wants what you're selling. Time to retool before you fall even further behind. One party having this much power is a bad thing. Time to do something about it.

They need to connect to the heartland. They need to get more than just the city votes. It isn't enough anymore. Time to pull in the reigns, and back away from their more extreme views. Time to condemn radical fringe groups that put out public messages in teh name of the "Left" or the Democratic party. I abhor what the democratic party has become and I'm scared that the republicans now have such complete control over the legislative and executive branches. There are 3 judges getting ready to step down... Time to take the Judicial branch too... We can thank the likes of Howard Dean, Michael Moore, know-nothing actors, The Waffler Candidate, etc for this though. I hope they change enough for the next elections in 2006 and 2008. It'd be a shame to see them slip further.

[old jong]

then you know your world would more align with the values you buy in to.
Yeah, the NRA values,the KKK values,the texan oil cartels values,the armement makers values,the Saudi values,the bush family business interest values,the bible belt religious fanatics values,some drunk cowboys values among other things. ;)

Go America! :cool:

[mortal]

True but the way Iraq was spelled was beyond stupid.

Even you liberals could admit that.

Anyway now back to killing women and children.

[SifuAbel]

Would the good old boys please shut up for moment and celebrate the way you're used to, with a beer and a shotgun.

Before anyone goes on for 50 pages about the war. Remember, you can't unring the bell. We've been there too long and lost too many lives. Its now about exit strategy and completion. Something bush can't even spell. Maybe now that bush has been re-elected,and has no need to use the war crutch anymore, we'll actually see some mode of termination to this conflict. Perhaps we'll find Osama Been forgotten. And, the rest of the terrorists NOT in Iraq.

[rogue]

I don't think they'll get the message Ford. Right now they're too wrapped up looking to blame everyone but themselves to see what their problem is. Just look at the electoral college map, the Democrats are in enclaves, little islands cut off from the rest of the country, but they don't even see that. Maybe they should drive more between NY and CA instead of flying.


Old Jong, the KKK? C'mon cuz you know better than that.


We've been there too long and lost too many lives.
What is the proper length of time and the acceptable number of loses?

[SifuAbel]

The vote was split nearly in half.

Quick lesson , the electoral count is divided by population. So no matter how much you connect with the Heartland, you still need what are now the blue states. Bush won by piece meal. Get it straight , bush barely won. The heartland didn't connect with Kerry as a person, they felt, that he was too upper crusty for their tastes. Doesn't mean nobody voted for him in the heartland. It was a close race throughout the country.

I'll give it to Bush because he did win the popular vote. Slightly. 58 to 55 MILLION votes. It was no landslide.

This is a country divided almost in half. And, mostly due to a sheepish following of party lines one way or the other.

The map of the popular vote is both red and blue, IN EVERY STATE.

[old jong]

Old Jong, the KKK? C'mon cuz you know better than that. Oups!...Your'e right! It doesn't exist anymore and the blacks can sit in front of busses now. Sorry!...;)

[SifuAbel]

Say, aren't you late for the rapture or something? Hurry up, you just might make it.

[wdl]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

I'll give it to Bush because he did win the popular vote. Slightly. 58 to 55 MILLION votes. It was no landslide.

This is a country divided almost in half. And, mostly due to a sheepish following of party lines one way or the other. [/B]

Actually, while it was not a landslide, Bush actually won more considerably than any republican will care to admit. Publically republicans won't admit that they don't fare well with large turnouts even though it's obvious. With lots of new voters, Bush still carried a 51% majority. The largest majority in popular vote since like, 1988 if I'm not mistaken? While it wasn't a landslide, it wasn't slight either. Definitive is probably a fairer word.

Country divided? I really don't know about that. Sure, ideologically divided we are, but really, everybody wants the same thing, more money.

-Will

[SifuAbel]

Oh come on, 2 % isn't slight ?

[rogue]

Abel, you need a nice bowl of flan.

Flan, it's what President Bush eats.

[SifuAbel]

Who said I'm a liberal ?!?!?

Maybe the good old boy term was unfair. But this isn't a football game, wolfy. You're all happy and trumped beacuse your boy won. Still doesn't mean you will better off.

Again, this is more party line crap. I'm not a democrat either. and truth betold, If it was A.B.B. I would probably vote republican.

[red5angel]

the anti-bush leagers crack me up, it's all about the excuses and so on and so forth.

I like these the best:


The vote was split nearly in half.

I'll give it to Bush because he did win the popular vote. Slightly


the margin was certainly higher then Kerry supporters expected and it wasn't as close as everyone thought it would be.

Face it, Kerry inspires people who are either too lazy to go out and vote.

Wolfen and CNN are correct on this much, we need new parties, period.

[wdl]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Oh come on, 2 % isn't slight ?

2% is slight, 3% isn't especially considering he's carrying states 2% and 3% that he was carrying by .25% last time.

CNN.com has got:

Bush: 58,662.020
Kerry: 55,126,203

That's a 3,495,817 vote difference. With 1% being 1,137,482. That's a 3.07% margin.


-Will

[SifuAbel]

You need to get your head out of the TV and into some sober reality.

" the Democrats are in enclaves, little islands cut off from the rest of the country,"

HELLO, its by POPULATION. These little islands contain Millions more per sate, THATS why they get the Electoral votes they have. They only needed Ohio.

Do really need me to post all the popular results? In some states he won by less that 200 K votes, some even closer. really, get over yourself.

"Wake up, Democrats. Nobody wants what you're selling."

Correction, nearly HALF the people every state voiced their wanting change in the GOP.

Sorry guys, politics from the back of cereal boxes is whats wrong with country, point blank.

The war, you don't have to support the war to support our troops. Its not mutually exclusive.

[Hard Fists]

Originally posted by themeecer
If you believed it I bet you are sitting there waiting for Bill Gates to share his fortune with you....that if you send every email forward you recieve to 10 people that your emails are helping little Billy who is sick.



I take offense to that..I am helping little Billy...give me your email address so I can make sure you get on the list.

And Hold On...Gates contacted me personally...I received an email last month. It is really easy, all you have to do is provide them with your account numbers and access codes.

What's your info--you shouldn't miss this opportunity :D

[SifuAbel]

I would love it to have a VIABLE third or even fourth party. So go out and make one. The libertarians, independents, and so on have tried. How many electoral votes you think Nader would of got If it were split by vote, instead of the taking of all by the winner?


And 3 out of 113 million if it isn't slight, its still very small.

[red5angel]

Correction, HALF the people every state voiced their wanting change in the GOP.

uh, wanting change and wanting the Democrats to take power are two completely different things.

[SifuAbel]

More Rhetorical BS. thanks red5.


Uh, nearly half VOTED for Kerry . WTF are you talking about?

Those three million votes were spread out through the entire country.

Sorry , you will not regain the Reagan years through this election.

This country is ideologically divided. But its not thinking, its reacting, its afraid, and its being herded like cattle.

[SifuAbel]

well, at the very least, if we survive, he'll be out in 2008.

Then, we'll have two new fresh millionaires to choose from.

That is of course unless Bushy decides to amend the constitution.

anti- bush, me, whatever gave you that idea?

[Icewater]

Just look at the electoral college map, the Democrats are in enclaves, little islands cut off from the rest of the country, but they don't even see that. Exactly. They are obviously cut off from the rest of the country... at least mentally.

[ZIM]

I would love it to have a VIABLE third or even fourth party. So go out and make one. The libertarians, independents, and so on have tried. How many electoral votes you think Nader would of got If it were split by vote, instead of the taking of all by the winner?
If you seriously want this, then you have to get rid of the Electoral College and switch to direct proportional voting, state by state if necessary. The Dems will fight that, too, if it becomes a popular movement. The end result would change our government effectively to a parliamentary system- so you take your chances with it. Look up Duverger's Law for more info.

Oh yeah (http://www.4fh.us/data/media/1/awesome.gif)

[old jong]

old jong yuh know us so well!! i

Maybe not!...some of you could be even worse! But anyway;do you know the prices of oil have already jumped up due to bush reelection and the global insecurity he causes?...Who do you think will benefit from this?...

Do you know that the US emergency oil reserve (kept in underwater caves near the east coast) will be augmented from 600 million barrels to 1 billion barrels?...How do you think the global market will react?...And who will again benefit from this?...

Are you ready to go in Iran*(1) soon?...



*(1) Iran: foreing country populated by unimportant non-american (U.S.) life forms called terrorists. (usually sheep keepers or farmers equipped with 22 gauge riffles to keep the wild dogs away from the herds. Use attack helicopters with anti-tank guns on them!*(2) )

*(2) As seen on T.V. ;)

[Ford Prefect]

Originally posted by wolfen
Youve been watching CNN. I can tell.
You missed the part where they said that maybe it was time for the Democratic party to be finished altogether and ....

Ummmm.... Nice try, but no. I don't watch CNN much if at all. First time I watched in months was flipping between them, Fox, and MSNBC for election results. That would probably explain why I missed "that part" you were talking about. What I was saying was because it's fairly obvious. Just look at the map of which states went with who. The Democratic party is completely missing a HUGE part of this country. They need to do something about that. If they went more moderate, all the current dem's would still have to vote for them until there actually becomes a viable 3rd party (long long time). However by doing so, they may gain swing voters in the heartland. It's a no-lose proposition. They need to do it.



Rogue,

I hope you're wrong. I wanted Bush to win this election, but the Congress thing makes me skittish. I like balance and don't like either party throwing that balance off this much. If they don't change their message, I see it only getting worse.

[red5angel]

This country is ideologically divided. But its not thinking, its reacting, its afraid, and its being herded like cattle.


No, it doesn't have a choice, that's the problem.


Iran! LOL! I hope we go to Canada next, I hear they have plenty of natural resources.

[ZIM]

A by-county map (http://4rwws.blogspot.com/2004countymap.gif)

Its not entirely filled in yet- but it sure is interesting....little islands of liberals indeed!

[MoreMisfortune]

sweet :)
now that you elected the guy that Bin and Buddies loves the most :)
now Bin and Buddies will love you even more deeply :)
congrats :)
on bringging on to yourself more love :)

[Icewater]

*(1) Iran: foreing country populated by unimportant non-american (U.S.) life forms called terrorists. (usually sheep keepers or farmers equipped with 22 gauge riffles to keep the wild dogs away from the herds. Use attack helicopters with anti-tank guns on them!*(2) )

Same thing could have been said about Afghanistan. Those poor farmers killed a ****load of Americans because they were left unchecked.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

And yet...

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind...And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the
mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so.
How do I know?
For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

-- William Shakespeare, paraphrasing a letter by Caesar..

[old jong]

Iran! LOL! I hope we go to Canada next, I hear they have plenty of natural resources.

You just come! Here we skin invaders and make inflatable dolls out of them for the american sex market.
The rest is for the eskimo dogs. ;) :p

[IronFist]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings...

And yet...

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind...And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the
mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so.
How do I know?
For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

-- William Shakespeare, paraphrasing a letter by Caesar..

Nice quote.

[MoreMisfortune]

I agree
It basicly says the same thing i said, but with more words
this William guy had no capacity of syntex-ing

[CaptinPickAxe]

Man....


I can't belive it...well, actually I do belive it, becuase we all knew it was gonna be four more years of the same B.S. Lies, corruption, scandals....me getting shafted on the price of my school


If Bush does irrepairable damage to the US, I want you to know I will hold every single republican responsible. This is crap and I hope you enjoy wallowing in it like the pig scum you are...

Average Joe has been delt a deathblow today.

[FuXnDajenariht]

Originally posted by count
Ironic, isn't it? (http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html)

Say goodbye! (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html) :(

The people have spoken and the result is, we want more of the same. :rolleyes:

yea.....im all for goin old skool on king george and starting a new government. lol not like we're practically in a one party system anyway..... dems and reds...there all the same. i dont think the founding fathers wished that their system be set in stone. but it should be adaptable. but following blindly and party politics are easier than thinking for yourself....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Average Joe has been delt a deathblow today. http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4044&n=1

[WinterPalm]

This is a dark day for the world...:(

[old jong]

The empire is back!

[ZIM]

What did you all believe in this year? Hate? Anger? You ran your own campaign, one filled to the brim with bile and acidic spittle and you wonder why you feel so black today? You were pinning your hopes on the wish that the rest of America harbored the same intense hatred as you and would vote with their clenched fists. Now that you are left without the hoped for victory party as an outlet for your rage, you have to direct it somewhere else. If not at the candidate, then at his voters, right? What I am seeing & hearing elsewhere today makes me pity you, and it's a pity tinged with disgust and should not be mistaken for empathy.

Why is it so hard to imagine that not everyone thinks like you? Look over the results agin, that by-county map, the resounding defeat of the Gay Marrriage acts. The election was about a cultural war and *then* the WoT. The far-Left fringe of the Dems need to get off the front porch. You claim to have the cure- the nation just said to you: "Physician, heal thyself"

Note to TCB: Your first response I admired- it was measured and thoughtful. Try not to get swept up with the Bush Derangement Syndrome- We need your more balnced viewpoints from time to time.

This is a kind remonstrance, not a criticism.

[FuXnDajenariht]

dude! whats the cost of livin in montreal?

lol "its gotten to the point where **** cheney cant even hide the evil in his dark little soul" -john stewart

lmao....you can look at cheney and it looks like hes in total pain when he attempts a smiles....its the funniest **** in the world...

evil empire is back alright.....

[old jong]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
dude! whats the cost of livin in montreal?



Read this first! (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6704292) ;) ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

It is a great day for the world.

We've shown that America prefers the ballot box to activist judges.

That Americans will look at the issues, and vote for the group that lies less. That promises things that can be accomplished, rather than promises that are never fulfilled.

That a fundamental beleif in self-reliance is still at the core of the American ideal.

That Martin Luther King was right in his wish for: "A day when a man will not be judged by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character."

This election was about just that. And despite all the misplaced bile, rage, and hatred exhibited by the radical left in this country - Americans rejected it for a more centrist POV. It was the democrats who promised 'riots', who shot up Republican offices, and stormed them. I've been assaulted by people who felt so frustrated that they could not win in an intellectual debate that they needed to resort to violence. Despite painting the Republicans as villians, the villianous behavior I witnessed was perpetrated by Democrats. The left needs to take a long, hard look at thier own intolerance and hatred, and reassess why the center has fled thier party. I've seen the brown shirts, and they are on the left.

Ironically, the party that plagarized a great Cuban nationalist and propogated the slogan: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" have at the heart of thier complaints purely selfish reasons for being unhappy. No one is going to give them a hand out. I for one am shocked and disapointed. We are not only at war, we are in a war that is 1400 years old, and we have only recently bothered to notice it is still happening. Our future depends upon living up to our ideals. Self-reliance, generosity, openess, and a firm resolve to not endure tyranny. For those of you that think this is tyranny... I'll happily pay to ship you to a country one way that is a truly tyrannical. Just promise to stay there and let us know how much 'better' it is.

Are there important issues to confront? Sure. Do we need to watch our government like a hawk? You bet.

I can offer only one piece of advice, as a person who worked thier way up from poverty not once, but twice. Work hard, be happy.

[Buddy]

Well said MS2. But don't forget JFK was a conservative Democrat, back before they all became Republicans.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ZIM
A by-county map (http://4rwws.blogspot.com/2004countymap.gif)

Its not entirely filled in yet- but it sure is interesting....little islands of liberals indeed!

This map is misleading. You can't count land instead of population in a voting style map. This map does not account for population density. Many of these states are woefully under populated compared to the coasts.

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
May George reread the bible and realize that nowhere does it say bomb the F@CK out of a third world country. Or to lie...

However it does say that Jesus was known to lose his temper, flip over his enemies tables, kick their asses and throw them out of the temple.

Jesus wasn't a hippy, he was more of a Billy Jack.

[themeecer]

LOL Monkeyboy.

[Merryprankster]

You know....

Whoever said Old Jong needs to learn how to spell needs to take a little look at the world around him.

OJ is a Francophone Canadian. And in most French language literature, Iraq is spelled Irak.

So I'd say that's infinitely more forgiveable than "trader." So, STFU.

What am I annoyed with?

I'm annoyed that people on both sides based their votes on absurd pictorials of the candidates. I detest the idiocy of the far right that, without having ever read Kerry's transcripts or testimony regarding Viet Nam, condemns him as a traitor or that he called the troops "war criminals." IF, in fact they read the transcripts and came to those conclusions, then they need a comprehension course.

Ditto to the flip-flop label. Nuance does not equal a changed stance. Not having the slightest idea what was in a bill that Kerry voted no on means you can't make blanket accusations and hope to be correct.

I had a woman tell me in a bar that she was voting for Bush because Kerry shot a kid in the back. I was horrified.

I understand the mindset of people who fought in Viet Nam who view Kerry as a traitor. I understand that Viet Nam was a horrible war for the people who fought in it. Psychologically, it's very difficult for them. Unlike WWII or Korea, there was no sense of having won anything or even fought the good fight for a good cause. Instead, there is a sense of pointlessness.

Some came back and protested against the war, calling it a tremendous nothing and waste of human life. Others came back and called those people traitors. "Who are you," they asked, "to tell me that my friends were killed and I was in all that blood for nothing?" So I understand their visceral hatred of Kerry and others like him. I do not understand why people without a connection to the Viet Nam war in many cases cannot view all comments on both sides critically.

I am appalled at the idiots on the far left who believe the war in Iraq was for oil. I am appalled at people who believe that this administration is imperialist, or that U.S. foreign policy "caused" the problems that are ongoing and have been for generations. I am disgusted with their absurd conspiracy theories about megacorporations running the United States. They have nothing but their own vapidity as proof....and if you prevent evidence to the contrary, you've either been brainwashed, you're stupid or both.

I am appalled that if you don't see the message of the left you're obviously an idiot. I am equally horrified that if you disagree with the right, you're evil or at the very least, morally corrupt.

What am I happy about?

I'm happy that when I'm on this board, I'm considered borderline fascist by most of the members. I'm happy that when I'm on the OG, I'm usually considered a big-government liberal.

I must be doing something right. Moderates are the real conservatives and the defenders of the western liberal tradition.

[rogue]

This map is misleading. You can't count land instead of population in a voting style map. This map does not account for population density. Many of these states are woefully under populated compared to the coasts.
And the woefully under populated parts won the popular vote.

Ford: It'll be interesting to see if the Democrats finally have that big battle for what they stand for. They have to be something besides the "other guys". If the left wins then the Republicans will get some new members. The moderates win then they lose their base.

Maybe we'll get a hat trick (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/497138.html)

Hey, if you don't like how America treats terrorists try this... (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6386157/)

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Buddy
Well said MS2. But don't forget JFK was a conservative Democrat, back before they all became Republicans.

Wow, what a totally erroneous statement. Sorry dude, the ones who left the democratic party left because they had a problem with a state run program to force certain racist white but influential constituents to stop impinging on the liberty of blacks. Kind of like when they were forced before to do the same, and they ceceded from the country and lost a war. Nice job, hailing the racists in our history as heroes. It's all well and good to claim it's an issue of state's rights, but that, in and of itself, is arguing that it's an issue of liberty, with bigots who turned a blind eye to systemetized racism.

Using the name of MLK Jr. is just offensive in this context. The democrats are in the position they are in now because they had the balls and integrity the dixiecrats lacked, they fought racism that was sytemetized in the Dixiecrats own clulture and have largely won that fight, knowing that they'd lose the south because the south was so in need of black americans as cheap labor. Now a white guy doesn't get a college loan, and he cries all over about it, because he has something offsetting his history of priviledge.

As for a victory by moderate forces, the religious far right is hardly centrist.

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
You know....

Whoever said Old Jong needs to learn how to spell needs to take a little look at the world around him.

OJ is a Francophone Canadian. And in most French language literature, Iraq is spelled Irak.

So I'd say that's infinitely more forgiveable than "trader." So, STFU.

What am I annoyed with?

I'm annoyed that people on both sides based their votes on absurd pictorials of the candidates. I detest the idiocy of the far right that, without having ever read Kerry's transcripts or testimony regarding Viet Nam, condemns him as a traitor or that he called the troops "war criminals." IF, in fact they read the transcripts and came to those conclusions, then they need a comprehension course.

Ditto to the flip-flop label. Nuance does not equal a changed stance. Not having the slightest idea what was in a bill that Kerry voted no on means you can't make blanket accusations and hope to be correct.

I had a woman tell me in a bar that she was voting for Bush because Kerry shot a kid in the back. I was horrified.

I understand the mindset of people who fought in Viet Nam who view Kerry as a traitor. I understand that Viet Nam was a horrible war for the people who fought in it. Psychologically, it's very difficult for them. Unlike WWII or Korea, there was no sense of having won anything or even fought the good fight for a good cause. Instead, there is a sense of pointlessness.

Some came back and protested against the war, calling it a tremendous nothing and waste of human life. Others came back and called those people traitors. "Who are you," they asked, "to tell me that my friends were killed and I was in all that blood for nothing?" So I understand their visceral hatred of Kerry and others like him. I do not understand why people without a connection to the Viet Nam war in many cases cannot view all comments on both sides critically.

I am appalled at the idiots on the far left who believe the war in Iraq was for oil. I am appalled at people who believe that this administration is imperialist, or that U.S. foreign policy "caused" the problems that are ongoing and have been for generations. I am disgusted with their absurd conspiracy theories about megacorporations running the United States. They have nothing but their own vapidity as proof....and if you prevent evidence to the contrary, you've either been brainwashed, you're stupid or both.

I am appalled that if you don't see the message of the left you're obviously an idiot. I am equally horrified that if you disagree with the right, you're evil or at the very least, morally corrupt.

What am I happy about?

I'm happy that when I'm on this board, I'm considered borderline fascist by most of the members. I'm happy that when I'm on the OG, I'm usually considered a big-government liberal.

I must be doing something right. Moderates are the real conservatives and the defenders of the western liberal tradition.

I am appalled at the crap you just wrote about the left-wing
The left wing is right
Now get the fu.ck out of my forum, you fairy.

[Merryprankster]

"I am appalled at the crap you just wrote about the left-wing

Coming from you, you made my day!

[David Jamieson]

man, I was really hoping Cobra Commander would get in.

ah well, release the flying monkeys anyways!

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Coming from you, you made my day!

lol :D
only person i can still pizz off here is lkfmdc

[Andy62]

There is no doubt now! The White House, The Senate, The House Of Represenatives and the Governors of the states are majority Republican. Bush had broad coat tails. The Democrats have to go back to the drawing board after they get through the "power struggle" between the Clinton and Kerry factions and see if George Soros, the international currency speculator who a singlehandedly almost collapsed the British Pound Sterling, is able to get control of the party.

[SifuAbel]

"And the woefully under populated parts won the popular vote."

BS!! they flipped Ohio, Without that they didn't have squat.


But whatever, its too late now, everybody get their radiation suits in working order. And whatever you do, don't look dierctly at the flash.

[MonkeySlap Too]

KC - you need to go back to your history books - it was Republican votes that put the Civil Rights act through - against Democrat resistance. The votes are in the record.

Using MLK's name is very accurate. It is the modern American left that has turned EVERYTHING into a matter of 'race.' Which is complete and utter BS. You don't see the patrician millionaire liberals of the Democrat party putting African-Americans into positions of responsibility. It's the Republicans who have put the best people forward, not based on the color of thier skin, but on the content of thier character.

I don't experience rascism when I'm with the local Repubs, but all I see with the Dems is racism subtle and overt, class warfare, and lots of anger.

Neither party deserves a saintly position, but the anything for power, say anything but what you really stand for method of the Dems is tired. GWB actually is pretty centrist. I'm not particularly religious, but as long as there is tolerance of religions, I'm tolerant of them.

[SifuAbel]

You don't understand, I have two words for you. Hillary Clinton. Bush has doomed us all.

http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTEyMDVtYnZtBF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAN2MTczB HRtcGwDdjE3My1jc3M-/s/219092

[rogue]

BS!! they flipped Ohio, Without that they didn't have squat. What do you mean by that? The Republicans flipped Ohio against their will or hoodwinked them because they were slow? :confused: :confused:

[David Jamieson]

Maybe this is why Gaddhafi duck brands democracy as a dictatorship of the majority. lol

[The Willow Sword]

Well apparently the people have spoken. repub white house repub senate repub congress and repub supreme court. It literally IS friendly Fascism at work here. What scares me is the mentality of so many to re-elect and further this one sided government and policy of raping oil rich countries using terrorism as an excuse to do so.

Although one thing that i did like is that AUSTIN TEXAS (TRAVIS COUNTY) went to KERRY/EDWARDS. I am glad that in this bible belt of ultra conservatism that there is a democratic mecca in the center of it all. I think it really is a slap in Bush's face as well as rick perry(governor).

Weird as it may sound the next election will prove to be even weirder and more intense than the last two for we will have another Clinton running and she will be up against rudy juliani. that will be an interesting election. you all know what side i will be on.

So to all you repubs,,dont get too full of yourselves,,,,everything has its end. in 4 years(which is not that long) things WILL end for you, and hopefully some balance will return and we will not be in this dictatorship woth ill minded folks who buy in to it,,hopefully they will wake up and smell the reality in the years to come.

"and the battle continues"

all my best,,,TWS

[Merryprankster]

Aggressively Messianic Idealism isn't exactly centrist policy. It's more like being a Big Government Right-Winger. Which is precisely the problem that real conservatives have with Bush.

Note that I am not calling Kerry centrist, nor am I saying that Bush's ideals are wrong. I'm just pointing out that his brand of government is not centrist, really. Heck, his foreign policy alone disqualifies him (you can find the brunt of his foreign policy guidance on newamericancentury.org. This is an aggressive, right wing think tank.) He has a very hands-on, very heavy approach to using the Presidency.

What Abel means is that the broad geographic win of Bush would have been impossible without winning a key populated stated called Ohio.

[rogue]

Right, Ohio has several good size cities, but they still aren't LA or NYC. What I find amusing is his "woefully under populated" view of America outside of Cali and NY, as if there is something wrong with wanting to live without the problems of a high density area. For the record I was born and raised in the NYC area, and have lived in CA. I still love both places but can't think of living in either again.

And for you guys running to crash on Old Jongs couch... (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6704292)
Old Jong, if you think we make bad neighbors we make even worse houseguests.:D

[David Jamieson]

Who knows, maybe shrub'll get himself censured or impeached yet!

He certainly has been given a lot of rope now.

[diego]

what i'm appalled by is the fact that how far man has come...we still onsome bullshiat...why don't the pubs and dems and all the fairys just work together onsome real scientific sh-it to help clean up the world


i'm not having kids, i'm not a cruel ******* to let them be oppressed by seemingly educated imbeciles.word up to cameo

anyone see the game last night?

[Mika]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
You know....


I am appalled at the idiots on the far left who believe the war in Iraq was for oil. I am appalled at people who believe that this administration is imperialist, or that U.S. foreign policy "caused" the problems that are ongoing and have been for generations. I am disgusted with their absurd conspiracy theories about megacorporations running the United States. They have nothing but their own vapidity as proof....and if you prevent evidence to the contrary, you've either been brainwashed, you're stupid or both.

I am appalled that if you don't see the message of the left you're obviously an idiot. I am equally horrified that if you disagree with the right, you're evil or at the very least, morally corrupt.



I don't mean to challenge you or anything, that's not what this is about, but you must get these ideas from a source, so I just would like to look into it myself. Iz all...:cool:

Good message, though :)

Cheers :)

Mika

[diego]

Originally posted by diego
what i'm appalled by is the fact that how far man has come...we still onsome bullshiat...why don't the pubs and dems and all the fairys just work together onsome real scientific sh-it to help clean up the world


i'm not having kids, i'm not a cruel ******* to let them be oppressed by seemingly educated imbeciles.word up to cameo

anyone see the game last night?

this is what i'm saying about seemingly educated imps and shiat...how could an athiest give two f-ucks if a gayguy or a lezzie gets married i mean really are two best friends not aloud to be a couple?...i don't know any gays as far as i know but i'm saying a christian retard america vs an extremist muslem group...ww3 heres we cometh!!!:) shakes head


http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?t=83954

peep the link

[diego]

wow and the sad thing is i don't think this guy is even a troll and if he is college educated or even has his ged then just wow man wow look at the tracers!!!lmao

Why does who somebody marries have such an affect on you?

Why is gay marriage important to me? First off, let me state that I support gay civil unions. I am absolutely opposed to gay marriage though because in the Law laid out by God, marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman. There are those of us left who still respect the Law and I am one of them. Allowing gay people to marry is the last stone that has been breaking up marriage. Sending the messages that marriage is just something you do for yourself.


Any black person against gay marriage should be ashamed of themselves...take religion out of the equation...separation of church and state...religion should NOT play a role. The very idea that we would want to suppress ANY minority groups rights is outrageous.


First, as I previously mentioned, we cannot automatically toss out potential laws just because they have religious roots. Again, I refer to injunctions against thievery and murder in the 10 Commandments. You are of course correct that religious law doesn't banish slavery, etc. which is why potential law must be considered on its own merit. That is, does it merit society to toss in jail people who violate the Sabbath by working? Or is it a waste of government resources? Please don't take my warnings against automatically tossing out all law with religious roots as support for a theocracy. The Founders didn't want that, and I do not wish it.

[SifuAbel]

Before people go crazy, note this, the red won 2 seats in the senate and four in the house. OK, you're going to get rep. stuff all over the map. but that doesn't mean they can do what they want. You still need 60 % of the house or 2/3 of the senate to pass something. If reps want stuff done, they still need to play ball with 'da dems..

[diego]

lmao

http://homepage.mac.com/popnwave/unitedstatesofcanada.bmp

[Merryprankster]

You still need 60 % of the house or 2/3 of the senate to pass something. If reps want stuff done, they still need to play ball with 'da dems..

Not true at all.

With the exception of treaties, impeachments and Constitutional amendments, you need only a simple majority One vote makes the difference. That's it.

Or do you mean that you need a quorum?

In the case of both the house and the senate, the constitution demands a simple majority, 218 persons, and 51, respectively, to conduct business. However, the house gets around this by conducting most business in the presence of the committee of the whole, which requires only 100 persons for a quorum. Note that the committee of the whole doesn't vote on legislation - that requires a quorum as defined by the constitution.

The Senate, I believe, must have the 51 present.

Either way, that's just one person more than 50%

So, with the projected structure of the house and senate, the republicans:

1. Can form a quorum all by themselves.
2. Can pass legislation without any democrat support.

Although rare, procedural rules have been used to pass legislation. For instance, a house vote has been called at an unusual hour and only those in favor of a bill (or against it) were notified in time to get there. They can conceivably be used to do so again. These procedural tricks are not used often now, just because we really don't think that type of stuff is fair. And, clearly, the Republicans have no need to resort to them.

Procedural tricks now usually occur in committee, which is safer from the prying eyes of the public. Do YOU know what goes on in HPSCI? What about the Ways and Means Committee or appropriations, etc? House committees are notorious for this and ESPECIALLY this past congress. They (house committees in general) have, for instance, brought things in and out of committee or denied it outright with no calls for amendments, readings, or hearings supposedly in the interest of "efficiency." I need not be a cynic to conclude that this "efficiency" is really a means to ensure that the opposing party has no chance to offer commentary before it reaches the floor.

The senate invokes these sorts of procedural shenanigans less often. Partly this is because the majority only has one greater vote in a senate committee so they more often need collegialism to get stuff done. By contrast, the house committees are formed through proportional dominance. And, partly, it's just part of the generally more chummy, cooperative relationship in the Senate.

The only things that require two thirds of the senate are: Treaties, and finding somebody guilty in an impeachment hearing.

The only things that require two-thirds of the house are things that also require two thirds of the senate - veto overrides and proposing amendments to the constitution.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

While i do not favor Mr. Bush's policies or philosophies and i was an active Kerry supporter.. we now have another four years and we should make the most of it.. if the same voices for Kerry keep speaking, if they stay active, Mr. Bush will likely yield on some issues to preserve harmony and insure the continuation of Republican dominance.. if the Repubs allienate the Dems too much we could see a real ideological divide in this country, a fertile ground for social unrest.. What we have to know to survive is that the concept of America is stronger than any temporary swing in policy.. and, it is a "swing", the pendulum is never motionless, even when it swings contrary to our preferences..

Mr. Bush may have the numbers to effect his policies, but.. he has no clear mandate from the people, it was too close to imply that the populace is united in the Presidency or its policies.. he only has 2 years to show us his stuff.. then, the people can replace the house and senate majorities in favor of constraint and control.. so, keep your eyes on the future, be active, write your elected representatives.. remember, our government serves at our discretion (which could use some fine tuning, i might add)..

If you find some spare time on your hands.. read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Gettysburg address.. The US is not a people divided or united, it is a concept that surpasses the swings of the pendulum.. but, it is only as good as the people it represents.. we, as a governed people, must actively hold our elected officials accountable for the welfare of the Nation.. and, when the Nation intervenes in the affairs of other Nations, so too must we hold accountable the policy-makers.. it is the tool of the people, accountability.. anger, whining, etc.. has no accountability for the object of your concern, it only allienates your position.. accept the responsibility to make changes within the system designed expressly for that purpose..

The 2 party system is failing.. when the interest is the party, and not the interests of the Nation and its people, we have lost our founding fathers' direction.. we need a "Common Party", or an actual "Peoples Party".. a choice that draws from all perspectives to insure that this nation of "people" prospers from cooperative enterprise and from benevolent leadership..

The Office of the President of the United States of America is far greater than any man that temporarily occupies it.. do not confuse GWB with the Office.. and know that the Office is a concept we can ALL influence..

Be well..

[count]

Declaration of Independence (http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html)

Bill of Rights (http://www.interaktv.com/HISTORY/BillofRights.html)

Constitution (http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html)

Truth (http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/mirror/nov2004/1/0/000ADF94-E181-1189-B6E080BFB6FA0000.jpg)

[MoreMisfortune]

hey american :)
dont worry :)

http://www.aperfectcircle.com/posters/poster05.jpg
http://www.aperfectcircle.com/posters/poster02.jpg
http://www.aperfectcircle.com/posters/poster14.jpg
http://www.aperfectcircle.com/posters/poster04.jpg
http://www.aperfectcircle.com/posters/poster06.jpg
http://www.aperfectcircle.com/posters/poster07.jpg

and most importantly:
http://www.aperfectcircle.com/posters/poster11.jpg :)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey aren't those the postes made by Micah Ian Wright - the punk who claimed to be former special forces until he was outed by the Washington Post as a liar and a fraud? Didn't it cause him to get fired by ALL of his publishers?

That's why I love the left - they just can't stop lieing, and can't even see why that miight be wrong.

[Liokault]

Bush wins a second term, 3 soldiers from the black watch die in a war that was never justified.

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Hey aren't those the postes made by Micah Ian Wright - the punk who claimed to be former special forces until he was outed by the Washington Post as a liar and a fraud? Didn't it cause him to get fired by ALL of his publishers?

That's why I love the left - they just can't stop lieing, and can't even see why that miight be wrong.

Dont worry Monkey, its okay :)
http://www.aperfectcircle.com/posters/poster12.jpg

[MonkeySlap Too]

Wow, what stunning sarcasm. I'm just so impressed...



:rolleyes:

[MoreMisfortune]

They are thinking for us all, we dont need to fret :)

[SifuAbel]

"and proposing amendments to the constitution."

This is what I'm worried about.

[Andy62]

At some point you have to confront evil. The dark side of human nature is always there. Dominance behavior is always there and part of the human equation. Bush reminds me of Winston Churchill who faced all kinds of opposition and criticism for his stand against Hitler. Bush does have a mandate and he knows how to use power.

[MonkeySlap Too]

moremisfortune - why is it that the left needs to just assume that if a consrvative wins it demonstrates 'not thinking' or 'democracy has failed.'

What arrogant tripe.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Survival of the fittest".. leaves only one man standing... (or woman, who knows)..

"an eye for an eye".. leaves everyone blind..

Humans emerged from the general animal population due to intellect and the ability to work together for the common good.. it seems that we may be rejoining our former place in the food chain, negotiable..

Be well..

[SifuAbel]

Whats wrong with rogue's map is simple, the red states are not all red. Few states actually had an accute winfall.
Its amazing to me that the people whom voted for bush are very people that get the brunt of his abuses. And voted through some stupid misguided perception of "moral values". "moral values" equals whatever the preacher says. i thought only the middle east was controled by clerics.

In other words, kerry didn't have the right accent. Edwards would had a better chance.

It was the same story in every state, urban-kerry , rural-bush.

Even in ohio, its split almost down the middle. It was lost by a mear fraction of the poulation. 136 K more(thats half of one county) vs. the will of 2.6 MILLION people. Some of these races were too close for fairness.

So the will of almost half the population of the ENTIRE US is null and void, the will of 55 MILLION people.

This is very wrong. And not really even a bush-kerry issue anymore. This issue is systemic.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Whats wrong with rogue's map is simple, the red states are not all red. Few states actually had an accute winfall.
Its amazing to me that the people whom voted for bush are very people that get the brunt of his abuses. And voted through some stupid misguided perception of "moral values".

In other words, kerry didn't have the right accent. Edwards would had a better chance.

It was the same story in every state, urban-kerry , rural-bush.

Even in ohio, its split almost down the middle. It was lost by a mear fraction of the poulation. 136 K more(thats half of one county) vs. the will of 2.6 MILLION people. Some of these races were too close for fairness.

So the will of almost half the population of the ENTIRE US is null and void, the will of 55 MILLION people.

This is very wrong. And not really even a bush-kerry issue anymore. This issue is systemic.

well said Sifu Abel.

[CD Lee]

All this talk of sheep. Hmmm, sounds like both sides have their sheep. Some of you here are making ASSUMPTIONS that you can't prove whatsoever, that if somone voted Republican, they are a sheep, and are under a delusion.

The nation had a chance to watch Kerry, Edwards, Cheney, and Bush many times. The nation has spoken as to not only what they may want in the way of Government, but also what they don't want.

Kerry's voting record alone, does not represent the mainstream of America, and these people were not fooled by political banter and promises, but also by voting records.

Flat out, America does not share the same core fundamental values that the liberal left holds. They don't need a new angle to win. The Dems lost ground in every area, the people are simply not buying into the left agenda, even when sugar coated.

Kerry's campain was repugnant, mainly based on two things. Running down Bush, and making promises without answering how he could pay for it. He never answered how he could pay for it, or how he could walk into Russia and demand their nukes, or how he could get Germany or France on board. He just said he could. Yeah, right.

PS. The tax repeal on the top 2% would not even come close to paying for what he proposed, so that is not the answer.

[SifuAbel]

" America does not share the same core fundamental values that the liberal left holds."

So 55 million people are not "Americans" ?

2,816,501 in texas(taxus), BTW.

This the kind of BS that wrong with most of you. And You talk about sheep.

Most of you that are party liners, "the left this, the right that," ARE the sheep. Each side is pointing a finger to the other while hiding their crap behind them. To paraphase a popular book, "He who is without sin may cast the first stone."

[FuXnDajenariht]

that has me thinking.

did france and the rest of europe want kerry because they wanted to work with him and they genuinely dont trust bush and see faults with his leadership ooor that its less to do with cooperating with kerry and more to do with the fact that they can bend him more to their wills and influence more of his decisions to their benefits, not necessarily for the international community.

everyone talks about working together and global community/interconnectedness but no one is willing to take that first step. the UN doesn't do much of anything worthwhile that i can think of....

[SifuAbel]

We will never know. Like most of the stuff on this page we are speculating on the character of a popular figure through the distortions of the media, left and right.

Just to get a concensus here, let me ask, why are we in Iraq?

[FuXnDajenariht]

can the "left" or "right" really be centrist/moderate? their name impies otherwise. i can say i want to see an independent party in the near future.... but it will still after all only be a party. eventually it will probably have ideological bias like the rest.

was it columbia? or some other south american country a couple years ago that allowed a 3rd party to actually win a presidential election. they were underdogs but not suppressed like in our country. i dont think that will happen here anytime soon. i wish people would realize the importance of having more choice. i personally was gonna vote for nader but i thot it was more to vote for kerry this time. he got 5 percent here i believe. thats pretty good.

[SifuAbel]

Rural people have more children, period. If you want to really the offset the religious bilble belt. Have more children. Get to humping. Which us latinos are doing right now. Watch out it might be an american born hispanic in the white house in 50 years.

Fear is a *****. Ironically, the most fearfull in this country are usually the least threatened, externally anyway.

[SifuAbel]

To have something other than two parties, you have to start from the bottom. Win more state positions , then house , then senate, THEN you may have a shot at the presidency.

A third or even fourth party will make things way different good and bad, but its a check and balance we need in politics right now. with more parties to choose from, the old boys club has a more difficult time of keeping it an insiders only government.

[old jong]

here! (http://www.compfused.com/directlink/421/) :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

That reminds me of the difference between FDR and Roosvelt. When Roosevelt droped the bomb he was noted as saying the coarsest , rudest, and most racist remarks imaginable against the japanese. FDR never broke his decorum. The most he ever said was, "gentlemen, shall we? "

Thats class vs. crass.

[FuXnDajenariht]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
We will never know. Like most of the stuff on this page we are speculating on the character of a popular figure through the distortions of the media, left and right.

Just to get a concensus here, let me ask, why are we in Iraq?

I couldn't give u a reason if i tried. I dont believe the reasons Bush gave for obvious reasons since its changed about 12 times since last year. They were wrong in any case, and i dont quite believe it was strictly for oil.

Only the white house really knows.

It might be true that he believes its his christian duty to bring "freedom" to Iraq. Might also have something to do with his father.

Anyway...the ends aren't justifying the means since their are probably more ****ed off Iraqis than before. 15,000 Iraqis are quite a lot anyway you look at it. I'd say a 3rd were terrorists and the rest innocent civilians. Saying casualties of war wont put a grieving family at ease who see us as an invading army and might be predisposed to acts of revenge. You dont win anyone over with bullets.....

If we're really all that worried about weapons of mass destruction or crimes against humanity there are many many countries we could of given help to or confronted.... I mentioned Sudan once. I dont believe Kim Jon whatever his name is, has anything to worry about either. Hes has weapons and is crazy enough to use them if we even think about stepping foot in North Korea....

It doesn't add up to me... Why Iraq?

[ZIM]

:rolleyes:

You're ALL sheep!
...Especially you sheep!

[FuXnDajenariht]

calling people sheep and rolling ur eyes doesn't really help the conversation move along....

but thanks for sharing. :)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Heck.. i'd vote for Timothy McVey if he could present a concise verifiable plan that moves this nation toward the ideals upon which it was founded.. What is missing is actual Values.. not party protectionism, not big business interests, not liberal give-aways, but a solid plan that upholds "America the Beautiful" and controls "America the Powerful"..


Bush does have a mandate and he knows how to use power. This is the scary perspective.. that a 1 or 2% win implies "mandate".. and that implies use of power.. this is what most of the rest of the planet fears.. 4 years, no re-election worries, political control of the legislature, and control of the world's most powerful military..

Basically, the election gave Bush a "get out of accountablilty free card".. he has never answered the hard questions, and now he doesn't have to.. he believes America has absolved him of any wrong-doing or culpable ignorance..

But, NOW is the time for the citizenry to keep speaking.. very near 1/2 the population said this isn't what we want.. an active involved population .. speaking for 1 day, election day is your civic duty.. staying active in the affairs that shape your destiny is your obligation.. or, get back in the flock..

Why are we in Iraq? or, why haven't we found Osama.. face it, we are fed what we are capable of understanding.. real world politics would curdle most people's blood.. We are in Iraq because they posed more of a threat to Isreal than Afganistan or Osama (and there's more oil there).. and, we might hurt the Opium trade which sustains the region's economy.. and so on, and so on.. but, verifiable threats to the immediate US homeland.. nah, that was just the bait..

Sorry, it's been a rough day.. i'm venting..

Be well..

[SifuAbel]

"We are in Iraq because they posed more of a threat to Isreal than Afganistan or Osama (and there's more oil there)."

We can thank Herny Kissinger for that.

[ZIM]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
calling people sheep and rolling ur eyes doesn't really help the conversation move along....

but thanks for sharing. :)
A lot of the rest of it doesn't, either- so a wee little joke seemed alright.

Here: I'm not all up for helping you Dems out, but they were my party in the past, so here ya go-

Had the apportionment of electoral votes followed the population distribution of the 1960s, John Kerry would have won. Democrat bailiwicks have not grown as quickly as the those which have tended Republican.

1960 census (1964, 68 elections) -- Kerry 270, Bush 268
1970 census (1972, 76, 80 elections) -- Kerry 270, Bush 268
1980 census (1984, 88 elections) -- Bush 276, Kerry 262
1990 census (1992, 96, 2000 elections) -- Bush 279, Kerry 259
2000 census (2004, 08 elections) -- Bush 286, Kerry 252

Riddle me this, Batman: Why?

And don't give me that "Bible-bangers pump out more babies" crap. That's hate speech and it further alienates those whom you simply must learn to deal with. You guys tout your intellect- use it!

[SifuAbel]

Its a fact, they don't beleive in birth control.

[FuXnDajenariht]

lol i thot it was a joke....

[ZIM]

And you wonder why you lost. Keep it up. It'll be great beating you in the next mid-term election, then again in 2008, etc. You're proving you don't have brains- only hate.

[mortal]

"You dont win anyone over with bullets....."

That is the problem with you liberals. We are not trying to win anyone over. We are fighting a war against terrorists.

[old jong]

Originally posted by mortal
"You dont win anyone over with bullets....."

That is the problem with you liberals. We are not trying to win anyone over. We are fighting a war against terrorists.
Mortal-
Looks like the vast majority of the world is "liberal" because nobody,even the british population,is buying this is the reason why the U.S. of A's have invaded Irak.
This doesn't mean the rest of the world is not symphathic to fighting terrorism.It is just that a more plausible target is needed.

Madeleine Albright once said: " What is the use of having this magnificent military machine and not using it?...." Doesn't that say something?...

[SifuAbel]

Are we, really? There has been no provable connection with terrorism in Iraq. Next........

And it was a joke, moron. :rolleyes:

I'd like to thank zim and moratge for being such shining examples of the wacked mentality in politics.

You'll look forward to beating me? I'm not running for anything. Get a grip, "you" and "I" aren't entire parties or poulations of people. Just like "you" are not your favorite football team or racehorse.

59 million people may have voted for Bush . But some are admitting it was beacuse they didn't trust Kerry. Not beacuse they trusted Bush at all. "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know" In 2008 its going to come down to who has it together and who can transmit their plans better. Frankly, I don't think Kerry had the time to go over any plans in detail. He was being accosted left and right, pardon the pun, with issues that didn't have anything to do with the man in the present.

What plan does Bush have? All he kept going on about was "he can run, but he can't hide, yadda yadda yadda." He got what he wanted, he took Iraq to the prom and got her pregnant, he didn't plan on taking care of the little *******.

Itsd funny that some people will say that if Gore were president, we'd all be speaking arabic right now. Guess what , we are.

[rogue]

That reminds me of the difference between FDR and Roosvelt.
When did Teddy drop the bomb?:D :D

Whats wrong with rogue's map is simple, the red states are not all red. Few states actually had an accute winfall.
Its amazing to me that the people whom voted for bush are very people that get the brunt of his abuses. And voted through some stupid misguided perception of "moral values". "moral values" equals whatever the preacher says. i thought only the middle east was controled by clerics.
You are correct no state is all blue or all red. Cali was split what 55-45%. I'll let someone else argue the moral values issue with you.

In other words, kerry didn't have the right accent. Edwards would had a better chance.
Well no, Edwards wasn't liked down here in the south either.

It was the same story in every state, urban-kerry , rural-bush.
You're forgetting the 'burbs baby! Are you implying that somehow the urbanites are smarter than the rural folks?

Even in ohio, its split almost down the middle. It was lost by a mear fraction of the poulation. 136 K more(thats half of one county) vs. the will of 2.6 MILLION people. Some of these races were too close for fairness.
Ahh, fairness. The last refuge of the loser.

So the will of almost half the population of the ENTIRE US is null and void, the will of 55 MILLION people.

This is very wrong. And not really even a bush-kerry issue anymore. This issue is systemic.
Maybe you should have stayed awake in civics class. Everyone is represented by 2 senators and a representitive. Personally I think it's good if sometimes some peoples will is null and void. Would you like my will to always matter? And in Ohio it wasn't the will of 136K vs 2,659,664. The 136K were part of 2,796,147.

I'm dumb as a post but your arguments this time are even worse. Pick it up Abel you've done better!
:p

[SifuAbel]

oops, my bad, Harry Truman. LOL! a little historical dyslexia in the heat of things.

[rogue]

Madeleine Albright once said: " What is the use of having this magnificent military machine and not using it?...." Doesn't that say something?... Yes, that Albright is a twit. She is clueless to what a military is for.

[ZIM]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

I'd like to thank zim and moratge for being such shining examples of the wacked mentality in politics.

You'll look forward to beating me? I'm not running for anything. Get a grip, "you" and "I" aren't entire parties or poulations of people. Just like "you" are not your favorite football team or racehorse.
Christ, Abel- get a clue about what I'm trying to say to you. It isn't "whacked" at all- its the majority now. "You" knew very well "I" was speaking in the abstract- you aren't that stupid.

Another way to explain it (http://www.deanesmay.com/files/William_Shatner_Common_People.mp3) -but you'll still miss it...

[SifuAbel]

No, I said 136 K MORE. Read slowly. Even if Kerry won , it still is a problem.
So don't patronize the statement with stuff that should be left for your posts on MA.

The point is, you didn't win anything, you will suffer with the rest of us. I just hope you are not within draft age. And for those of you that think Bush will keep his word, I have six little words from Bush senior, "Read my lips, no new taxes."

3% does not a mandate make. IT IS NOT GOOD THAT 55 MILLION PEOPLE'S WILL IS NULL AND VOID AND THEN FORGOTTEN.


What some want to you to think is that it was a landslide. You can't unring the bell. Sorry, you will have 55 million americans that will stick to their descision well in to 2008 and with margins this close , nobody has room to feel overconfident. You have 55 million people that voiced disapproval of Bush. Either way, it won't matter in 2008, unless the rep. s get a candidate like Bush of course.

To me it was, ABB. ANYBODY BUT BUSH.

[SifuAbel]

"Are you implying that somehow the urbanites are smarter than the rural folks?"

no comment..........

[rogue]

Well Abel we'll have to deal with that in the same way you have to deal with Bush still being around. What would have been fair? The fact is Bush won by 3% points in a country that is currently divided politically. He could have lost by 1% point and it still would have been fair. I'm still represented in congress either way.


I have six little words from Bush senior, "Read my lips, no new taxes." Oh you're so smart. 'W' never said that, it was Harry Truman! :D

[SifuAbel]

Zim, its stupid, YOU are not IN the majority, you are a person that voted a party into the majority and what they do to me is what they do to you. The second you after you vote , you go right back to being one of the masses. The general masses are far as they are concerned. "They" don't include you, they will not invite you to their parties, they will not let you into their private meetings, they will not do anything for you if it doesn't serve their better interests.

Thats what people don't see, "I want to sleep with the common people" is right. Outside the election process, its definatley the insiders of gov. vs. the american people. Its a crapshoot, we make decisions once very four years between the lesser of two evils instead of the better of two champions.

Thats a problem, people don't know squat about the internal dealings of the gov. on a day by day basis. We can't even get news thats not owned by a one or another main corporation. Many bits of information are totally overlooked and don't even get reported on.

[Andy62]

Bush is confident and decisive. If you are going against people who blow themselves up you better be tough. The only thing that a shark respects is a bigger shark.

[SifuAbel]

"He could have lost by 1% point and it still would have been fair. "

No, it isn't. Wining or losing by 1-3% isn't an election, its a horserace.

"I'm still represented in congress either way."
You hope.
You can tell yourself that you're represented in congress. But thats not really true either. Once in office, your personal needs are not being met, only your perceived views on a grand scale. What they actually do is out of your hands. But if it makes you feel better to believe that you are somehow in control of the country, by all means enjoy it.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Andy62
Bush is confident and decisive. If you are going against people who blow themselves up you better be tough. The only thing that a shark respects is a bigger shark.

bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MonkeySlap Too]

I borrowed this from www.thehud.com, as it says it better than I can right now:


A Message to the Left

There's a lot of anger out there. A lot of recriminations and insults being thrown at Bush voters. If you read some of these left wing blogs you'll see comment posters talking about joining al Qaeda or wondering when they'll be carted off to concentration camps. It's pretty sad.

Bush is just a politician. We still have a democracy. You guys called him a dictator, but the people chose to re-elect him. Notice that word? Re-elect? Dictators don't get elected. They take power.

At some point you need to consider that you were played by your leaders. They lied to you and spun ridiculous gloom and doom predictions that will never come true. George Bush or John Kerry wouldn't have had an effect on global warming, if there is such a thing, which is in doubt. The world isn't going to end in your lifetime. Certainly not from the actions of the president. At some point you're going to have to see that you were used by the leaders on your side. They manipulated your emotions and made you unhappy. Think about it.

A friend of mine, who I used to know from when I lived in the Bay Area, is really mad about the election. He wrote the following on his blog.

America, I despair of thee. You have chosen ignorance over intellect. Superstition over reason. Insularity over inclusiveness. Privilege over charity. Militarism over diplomacy. Corporations over humanity. The commentators are saying that exit polls show the key issues underlying the belated confirmation of George Bush’s appointment to the Presidency were “moral” ones. To that, I can only say: America, are you insane? This is a man who waged a trumped-up war, costing thousands of lives, to enrich the companies of his backers. This is a man who as Governor of Texas supported life sentences for crimes he himself committed but wrote off as “youthful indiscretions.” This is a man who in wartime deserted even the cushy pseudomilitary post he had used his daddy’s connections to secure. This is a man who time and again enacts policies to further enrich the already-wealthy at the expense of the always-poor. He’s a man who believes that if you can’t afford something, you must not deserve it, be it health, home, or security. He is a smug, stupid child of wealth who has never had to work in his life. He has gotten away with everything since he was a child; and as an adult, he has continued to get away with doing harm to others on a grander and grander scale. Last night, you let him get away with it again. He is the least moral man ever to inhabit the White House.

I'll spare you the rest, but you can click on the link and read it if you like. Obviously, he believes a lot of what he reads in the left wing press. But if he thinks he understands Americans (he's a Candian ex-pat), he's sadly mistaken.

Here's what I wrote to him.

I’m sorry you feel that way. Bush is just a politician. The world isn’t going to end. Americans didn’t vote for Bush because they are racist, ****phobe haters. A lot of people voted for Bush because Kerry looked like the weaker candidate. I was one of them.



I am not stupid. I am not a red neck. I am not religious. I don’t care about gay marriage. But I am a veteran and I don’t like the fact that Kerry lied about Vietnam vets in the 70s. I didn’t like that Kerry spent 20 years in the senate and missed 76% of the security meetings or over 70% of the votes. I didn’t like that Kerry lied more than any politician I can remember during his campaign. Or that he had an inconsistent view on everything. Or that he had all these “plans” but wouldn’t explain any of them. Or that he has a history of being an arrogant ***** to the extent that he was unpopular in his home town. Or that John Edwards decided to run for president three years into his first term as senator when he had no experience beyond that. Or that both of them were so clueless on how to run a campaign. I mean, if you can’t run a campaign, what makes you think you can run the country?

Frankly, I thought the Democrats were running some of the weakest candidates I can remember.


I am not a Bush fan. But I’m not a Bush hater, either. Frankly, I think many on the left let their emotions and ideology blind them to the big picture. There is a serious war on terror going on and like it or not, Bush has a track record fighting it. Two rogue regimes were defeated in two years. 70% of Al Qaeda’s leadership killed or captured. Has he done a perfect job? No. But I know what he is capable of. Kerry’s record suggests he was capable of nothing.


He had a record of not showing up for work, having inconsistent policies. Taking the side of the North Vietnamese against the U.S. Taking the side of the Sandinistas against the U.S. Having no significant bills with his name on them after 20 years in the Senate. Voting against the first gulf war. Voting for the second, but not for the money needed to supply the troops, but at the same time complaining Bush sent them in without proper supplies.

I not only found it easy to vote for Bush, I couldn’t wait to vote for Bush. And normally I don’t even vote because I don't trust either party.



The problem I have with many on the left, and all those who bash Americans, is the arrogance. The idea that if you don't agree with them, you're stupid. A racist. A ****phobe. A religious nut. An extremeist.

It never occurs to them that many of us just happen to disagree with their conclusions. Or we just don't believe the what the political foes of the president have to say. For good reasons.

But instead, the left has to go to elaborate extremes to justify their patronizing and pretentious attitude. They can't just agree to disagree. They have to be insulting about it. And they have to accuse their opposition of crimes and misdemeanors in an attempt to discredit them.

Those who thought moral values were a reason to vote for Bush did so because they admire with his solid family life and they agree with his concept that, unless people are free from tyranny, we won't have peace. There are plenty of objective reasons to vote for Bush. He has accomplished a lot of positive things. Some of those things are in the process of being accomplished. Many people voted for him because they wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and to finish the job he started.

It doesn't help your case to insult Bush voters. If you want to win future elections, you need to convince them to change sides. I know I won't change sides as long as self righteous jerks continue to be your ideological leaders.

It also doesn't help your case to claim you're more intelligent than non-believers, when you support weak candidates, flog dead horses (Bush's national guard service, Abu Grahib), subscribe to propaganda from discredited film makers and endorse junk science.

Calling non-believers intolerant is ironic. Think about it.

Threatening violence, commiting acts of vandalism, spitting on returning soldiers, going on blogs you don't agree with and leaving insulting messages, is not liberal.

Less and less people in America identify with the left. Did it ever occur to you it might be because they're are turned off by it? I know I am.

[FuXnDajenariht]

Originally posted by mortal
"You dont win anyone over with bullets....."

That is the problem with you liberals. We are not trying to win anyone over. We are fighting a war against terrorists.

For one lets make it clear that im not a liberal or any other label you can think of....

second....if you and our president seriously thinks that way we're gonna be fighting the "war on terror" for the next 50 years with no end in sight. diplomacy exists for a reason....if you treat people like animals they will react in kind....

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
moremisfortune - why is it that the left needs to just assume that if a consrvative wins it demonstrates 'not thinking' or 'democracy has failed.'

What arrogant tripe.

Hello Monkey friend, do you mind if i call you Jump Monkey?
Jumpy, its very easy to undertand. I'll make real simple cos i have to study now (in my country you need to study and work to survive so we dont have much time for internet).
Right wing conservative is the conformist side
Conformists will conform and not see the real new facts
Conformists will never change
If a conformists is crap today, he stays crap forever cos he cant accpet new ideas and cannot change - he is forever attached to the norm - he can NOT think outside that norm - he is locked - he is sheep of the norm :)
Well since we know most the world is run by the Conformists and the world is crap, we conclude the conformists make the crap. And since they are conformists they cannot never ever stop being and making crap :)
Hope you understand :)
Although i know its dificult for you :)

[diego]

Originally posted by MoreMisfortune
hey american :)
dont worry :)


http://www.aperfectcircle.com/posters/poster07.jpg



well i know i feel better now:) thanks sifu or i mean supreme leader boy george:cool:

[diego]

Originally posted by Andy62
At some point you have to confront evil. The dark side of human nature is always there. Dominance behavior is always there and part of the human equation. Bush reminds me of Winston Churchill who faced all kinds of opposition and criticism for his stand against Hitler. Bush does have a mandate and he knows how to use power. yes and i'm sure his prayers to baby jesus which helped him kick the coca and whiskey will pull us all through into a better future today to forever:)

[diego]

Originally posted by mortal
"You dont win anyone over with bullets....."

That is the problem with you liberals. We are not trying to win anyone over. We are fighting a war against terrorists. do tell killing innocents and creating more future terrorists gets rid of terrorists how again?

[diego]

Originally posted by Andy62
Bush is confident and decisive. If you are going against people who blow themselves up you better be tough. The only thing that a shark respects is a bigger shark. lmao i just heard powell say the insurgents are winning...enjoy the waters fishy...

[Christopher M]

Don't you socalists study history? You have to rise up and kill everyone who disagrees with you if you wanna run a country. Geez.

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
That's why I love the left - they just can't stop lieing, and can't even see why that miight be wrong.
Pssh. The truth is just another tool of bourgeois to oppress the workers!

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
KC - you need to go back to your history books - it was Republican votes that put the Civil Rights act through - against Democrat resistance. The votes are in the record.

The Democratic resistance was centred around the Dixiecrats, southern democrats, and not only did they fight it's signing, but in protest, they became Republicans and stayed there ever after. It is the remainder of the democratic party which made that sacrifice, and they did it because they recognized that the end of the stranglehold on blacks in the south wasn't gonna happen under the guidance of whites, but under the independence of blacks in the marketplace and in politics. Additionally, they saw blacks as better allies than southern politicians, in the long run, because southern politicians were still under the habit of protecting interests that made black labor cheap, a weakness they were carrying over from long ago, obviously.

And after that, once Johnson was out of office, the next Republican administration, Nixon's, made virtually no effort to ever enforce the Act on the southern states, cause, well, he was playing politics. No modern president has ever weathered as many race riots as Nixon, because Nixon had no connection to black Americans, because Black Americans knew which party held those who purposefully neglected representing them, which was the GOP.

Democrats didn't "lose" the South, they opted for another plan, one which a group of Repubs also supported, but which they did not enforce during the first lengthy administration in which they'd have the opportunity to.

The voting record is not the history book, MS. The democrats chose to cross their Southern contingent for the benefit of black americans, and the GOP, regardless of their voting record, was not only failing to enforce it during their watch, but but under a Republican Administration the government seemed to be investigating any charismatic young black leader in a highly intrusive manner, while the administration was allowing major race problems to fester into riots, and in every way stealing from their party the prestige and sense of honor associated with actually supporting the Bill's intent.


Using MLK's name is very accurate. It is the modern American left that has turned EVERYTHING into a matter of 'race.' Which is complete and utter BS.

Perhaps it might be because the modern american right sometimes places infringements on specific groups that are reminiscent of the Dixiecrat's school of vested interest(Dixiecrats being those southern democrats who fought the Civil Rights act and were welcomed into the GOP).


You don't see the patrician millionaire liberals of the Democrat party putting African-Americans into positions of responsibility.

I hate to break it to you, but I've heard both Condaleeza Rice and Collin Powell referred to by blacks in this region as "the help". Those two can be fired and rehired at George Bush's whim. They are undoubtedly skilled and good people, but their position is still campy to many blacks. Those in politics who have their party's support are those who hold office, and Democrats have the most and the most popular black politicians in our government by leaps and bounds.


It's the Republicans who have put the best people forward, not based on the color of thier skin, but on the content of thier character.

What's especially nice is they invited a couple of their black friends along.


I don't experience rascism when I'm with the local Repubs, but all I see with the Dems is racism subtle and overt, class warfare, and lots of anger.

It's hard for me to imagine, I've so often seen you start a conversation that is political in a rational and slur free manner. Perhaps if you got a thesaurus and alternated calling them dispicable with other words like heinous, vile, and reprehensible, they'd take it much better.


Neither party deserves a saintly position, but the anything for power, say anything but what you really stand for method of the Dems is tired. GWB actually is pretty centrist. I'm not particularly religious, but as long as there is tolerance of religions, I'm tolerant of them.

GWB isn't centrist, and as far as tolerance among the religious right, I'm curious the historical precedent. Recent events suggest they approve curbing the liberty of groups who have broken no crime the government recognizes. What's their history on alcohol and witches?

[Merryprankster]

http://www.protestwarrior.org/tshirts.php


I don't agree with all this stuff, but some of it is relevant and funny.

Particularly the Che shirt, the Israel shirt and the War never solved anything shirt.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Moremisfortune: Your response simply proves my point. In which country are you a student? I'll need to send them a letter, as they are apparently wasting their money :D

KC - I'm about to run into a meeting - I'll do my best to respond today, as I think you will make a more interesting debate 'partner' than some of the brown shirts on here.

[FngSaiYuk]

Here are the new maps that will be in the updated world atlases some time this american presidential term-

North America (http://icculus.org/~chunky/images/random/new_map.jpg)

Middle East (http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/funny/new_map.jpg)

[ZIM]

I don't experience rascism when I'm with the local Repubs, but all I see with the Dems is racism subtle and overt, class warfare, and lots of anger.
Sho' Nuff! (http://www.reason.com/links/links110404.shtml)

[The Willow Sword]

"Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen to the end of the twentieth century and the arrival of
friendly fascism. Regrettably, millions will die as before. But just think of the tremendous
selection amd savings you'll gain. Of course the loss of freedom and democracy are
tragedies, I know, but consider the entertainment value contained within and to remind
you, it is you, the people, who have mandated this course of our fate so please come
with me... Look at the new face of power in America. This is your future you can never
leave. Who said tyranny can't be fun? Friendly fascism, having so much fun, what else do
you need? You'll learn to like what you must do. If you resist you are suppressed. You
are told who to fight and when by Bush the Nazi Fascist Friend. Alienating technology
wipes out our sense of community. Millions will die just like before. We disconnect and
start the war. We make life a commodity. We turn animals into machines. . Big business and big government distract us with entertainment.
They manufacture our consent while we destroy the environment."

Lyrics by "Consolodated" 1987. when Bush Sr was in office.

"and the struggle continues"

"Bush won the Moral values vote of the people :rolleyes:
(what a bunch of typical narrow minded horsesh!t.)


1st amendment/Peace/all my best,,TWS

[MonkeySlap Too]

Willow, do have trouble finding brown shirts that fit?

[Chang Style Novice]

Oh, HELL no! (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041105/D865R1DO0.html)

F!@#ing Diebold, man...godD@MNIT!

[SunBeam]

Glad Bush won. Read most of the post and emotions are high and I guess it is to be expected. I did the same thing when Clinton won. Always a positive a negetive on everyone. One side of the coin, both have strong faith and are family men. On the other they have commited war autrosities. Both have kept their word and also broken it. Such is politics. Bush will do better than people will ever give him credit for just as I have to admit that Clinton was not as evil as my emotions tell me he is. The world will continue (unless Hillary wins in 08 and Bill becomes secertary general of the U.N.).

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Willow, do have trouble finding brown shirts that fit?

MS, do you really think alluding to nazis is constructive, here? It's not even particularly accurate - there are a lot of things to disagree with the Democrats/liberals/leftists on, many of which I would have a lot of sympathy for you on, but even taken to their furthest extreme Democratic policies have almost nothing in common with the views of the Sturmabteilung.

Calling liberals "commies", while tiresome and inaccurate, is at least vaguely understandable, since communist movements and Democratic liberalism at least had some common goals. Calling liberals "brown shirts" is just offensive.

I agree that TWS' post wasn't very constructive either, and doesn't add much to the debate, but responding with more insults doesn't accomplish anything, and it makes it more difficult for you to keep up the discussion with people (like KC Elbows) trying to genuinely debate in a calm manner.

[red5angel]

furthest extreme Democratic policies have almost nothing in common with the views of the Sturmabteilung.

actually neither party really resembles anything like the original nazi movement, but it's a common slam to throw around between the two camps.

[The Willow Sword]

Brown really isnt my color MST. although i do have some brown khaki shorts and slacks for work and hiking and such. No my colors are red white and blue, oh and yellow and black and green.

red for the east yellow for the south black for the west and white for the north blue for the sky and green for the earth.

so fuk you and your communist references MST. i have never been a supporter of the communist rhetoric,,to me that system of government is just anouther offshoot of the friendly fascism that this country is emersed in.

I am a liberal democrat sh!thead so get it straight.


1st Amendment/PEACE/all my best...TWS

[red5angel]

so fuk you and your communist references MST

technically the brownshirts weren't communist..... ;)

[diego]

Originally posted by SunBeam
Glad Bush won. Read most of the post and emotions are high and I guess it is to be expected. I did the same thing when Clinton won. Always a positive a negetive on everyone. One side of the coin, both have strong faith and are family men. On the other they have commited war autrosities. Both have kept their word and also broken it. Such is politics. Bush will do better than people will ever give him credit for just as I have to admit that Clinton was not as evil as my emotions tell me he is. The world will continue (unless Hillary wins in 08 and Bill becomes secertary general of the U.N.). your emotions tell you clinton is more evil than bush...wow

i think they both pond scum but at least clinton doesn't put up a righteous facade like that yokel cokehead bush

i used to be a thief...i'm no longer one...i grew up with thieves....i see bush and think gangsta holmes!!!.

how yall can't see it and think the guy is a nice guy should really start using they third eye more word life.peace

[red5angel]

how yall can't see it and think the guy is a nice guy

whose sayin' he's a nice guy? He's just a better alternative for some then others.

[cerebus]

Well, if you don't mind mercury in your drinking water, pollutants in the air you breath and having your nation's protected parklands de-forested & turned into oil-dilling fields.... then, yeah, he's just peachy.

[red5angel]

I'm not saying one way or the other what he is, other then a politician. They all have their things and anyone who dislikes Kerry could throw out his dirty laundry list as well.

[diego]

Originally posted by red5angel
I'm not saying one way or the other what he is, other then a politician. They all have their things and anyone who dislikes Kerry could throw out his dirty laundry list as well.

my thing is tho at least clinton would kiss you while he screwed you...bush tells you he is screwing you and peeps just sit here like oy my bum don't hurt oy oy:)

al pacino telling the cop kiss me!...cop's all why?...al says cuz i like to feel good when i'm getting fhuct!!!:cool:

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Moremisfortune: Your response simply proves my point. In which country are you a student? I'll need to send them a letter, as they are apparently wasting their money :D

Jumpy, i hope one day you can open your mind
and be firends!! :)
I live in the deep south and my studies is i study to learn how to teach tards :)
Are you understanding my lessons? :)
Its a tough job cos i never know if i am failing as a teacher or if the student is too limited :)

Seriously... i study animals. So its even harder for me to communicate with tards you know :) I dont have classes for that :)

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by cerebus
Well, if you don't mind mercury in your drinking water, pollutants in the air you breath and having your nation's protected parklands de-forested & turned into oil-dilling fields.... then, yeah, he's just peachy.

One of the probs that the democratic party and their supports have is that the vast majority of America does NOT see this as a problem right now.

Many towns outside of the large cities don't deal with pollution because of the clean air, water and flora about them.

I'm not pro-bush by any stretch, however, the anti-bush group seem to think that their message is rather obvious when the groups they need to target with their message don't really grasp it since they don't feel it affects them.

[red5angel]

my thing is tho at least clinton would kiss you while he screwed you...bush tells you he is screwing you and peeps just sit here like oy my bum don't hurt oy oy


yeah but they're all screwin you!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Father Dog,
I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. I personally feel todays American left has a lot more to do with National Socialism than Communism. Look at them, a bunch of billionaires and millionares that feel that 'other' people should pay more taxes, live with greater restrictions, have thier opportunnities limited in exchange for some sub-standard handouts. It's the super-rich trying to buy off the poor - the Fascist model. Plus, look at the model the fascists used: extreme nationalism, storming/shooting up rival offices, extreme intolerance for views other than thier own - these are the tactics of today's American left. You didn't see this behavior from the repubs. The more I think about it, the more the left reminds me of the Nazis. Perhaps the comments made about Bush in the press are transferance...

At least the Republicans are honest about where they stand. I don't agree with all thier stances, but at least they are less destructive than the Left. The modern left is a wierd group-think determined to suck a bit of blood out of the body politic for thier special interest. And if you don't agree with them, well you're just stupid. Boo-hoo.

I mean c'mon.

FWIW - MoreMisfortune is on my ignore list. I don't bother to try and engage children in adult discussion.

[red5angel]

personally, I think we should go with a socialist government and keep the economy capitalist. I think AMerica would be that much stronger for it. You just socialize public works, medical, all that stuff.

[MoreMisfortune]

if i keep on posting here, does Jumpy gets curious and have a peek at my post at some time?
Im putting a salute on my sig just in case he takes a peek he will know he being watched :D

[cerebus]

Red5angel, then we would be..... Canada! :p :p

[red5angel]

we'd do better then canada, first of all, no one would have to speak fukking french.

[MoreMisfortune]

Jumpy... your fingers are itching... you want ot left click "see this post"

[MonkeySlap Too]

The Democratic resistance was centred around the Dixiecrats, southern democrats, and not only did they fight it's signing, but in protest, they became Republicans and stayed there ever after.

REPLY: and the dems have Robert Byrd... both sides have some a$$holes. But I still say the Lefts treatment of African Americans is inherently racist.

It is the remainder of the democratic party which made that sacrifice, and they did it because they recognized that the end of the stranglehold on blacks in the south wasn't gonna happen under the guidance of whites, but under the independence of blacks in the marketplace and in politics. Additionally, they saw blacks as better allies than southern politicians, in the long run, because southern politicians were still under the habit of protecting interests that made black labor cheap, a weakness they were carrying over from long ago, obviously.

REPLY: They also established welfare programs that effectively destroyed the African American family - once the bastion of the community. Look at the cold eyes of todays kids raised without parents or care. The big cities are full of them, and it is a crime that the modern AA leadership does not address this. Instead they turn to fear-mongering and handouts. You can't wish away racism, but you can't fully legislate it away either. It doesn't do any good to emancipate a people if you set the game up to make sure they fail. Both parties share guilt in this regard.

And after that, once Johnson was out of office, the next Republican administration, Nixon's, made virtually no effort to ever enforce the Act on the southern states, cause, well, he was playing politics. No modern president has ever weathered as many race riots as Nixon, because Nixon had no connection to black Americans, because Black Americans knew which party held those who purposefully neglected representing them, which was the GOP.

REPLY: Nixon was a racist paranoid. Brilliant statesmen on foreign policy, but otherwise a nut. His economic policies were a disaster too. Hey, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid here. I probably would have been a Kennedy Democrat in the 60's - but todays Dems have nothing to do with him or his policies. Thier looney.

Democrats didn't "lose" the South, they opted for another plan, one which a group of Repubs also supported, but which they did not enforce during the first lengthy administration in which they'd have the opportunity to.

REPLY: You know as well as I do that the parties are not cohesive. The Repubs that supported civil rights - the very civil rights the Democrats fought tooth-and-nail against - may not have had much influence over the Nixon White House. Hey, the right had Nixon, and the left had FDR. Just the left was better at rewriting history than the right. FDR was an even bigger disaster.

The voting record is not the history book, MS. The democrats chose to cross their Southern contingent for the benefit of black americans, and the GOP, regardless of their voting record, was not only failing to enforce it during their watch, but but under a Republican Administration the government seemed to be investigating any charismatic young black leader in a highly intrusive manner, while the administration was allowing major race problems to fester into riots, and in every way stealing from their party the prestige and sense of honor associated with actually supporting the Bill's intent.

REPLY: see above. Hey the Clintons investigated thier 'enemies', and engaged in all sorts of enemy-list paranoid behavior. Each side has thier freaks. It's the duty of the people who vote to fight against it. The political parties are surprisingly fluid, and you'd be surprised how involved you can get, if you care to. Those that seek power for powers sake - folks like Nixon or Clinton can be a real hemorroid.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using MLK's name is very accurate. It is the modern American left that has turned EVERYTHING into a matter of 'race.' Which is complete and utter BS.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps it might be because the modern american right sometimes places infringements on specific groups that are reminiscent of the Dixiecrat's school of vested interest(Dixiecrats being those southern democrats who fought the Civil Rights act and were welcomed into the GOP).

REPLY: Be specific. This is an allegation without an example. Whereas, all you need to do is listen to Democratic speeches, and you know exactly the 'special' place minorities have in thier world. I'd rather stand on my own merits, thank you.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't see the patrician millionaire liberals of the Democrat party putting African-Americans into positions of responsibility.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to break it to you, but I've heard both Condaleeza Rice and Collin Powell referred to by blacks in this region as "the help". Those two can be fired and rehired at George Bush's whim. They are undoubtedly skilled and good people, but their position is still campy to many blacks. Those in politics who have their party's support are those who hold office, and Democrats have the most and the most popular black politicians in our government by leaps and bounds.

REPLY: Um, hello? Any cabinet officer is help by that definition, and EVERYBODY is somebody elses 'help.' JC Watts was a great congreess person. I'm very impressed with Barack Obama, even though he's a Dem, at least he's not a race-baiter serf-creator. But if you really listen to Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson - you hear a message of division and helplessness. It's the whole ghetto-uncle-tom thing. 'Vote for us or else.' Yet it is the Republicans that offer the Horatio Alger option. The power for positive change is in your hands.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's the Republicans who have put the best people forward, not based on the color of thier skin, but on the content of thier character.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's especially nice is they invited a couple of their black friends along.

REPLY: This comment is beneath you.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't experience rascism when I'm with the local Repubs, but all I see with the Dems is racism subtle and overt, class warfare, and lots of anger.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's hard for me to imagine, I've so often seen you start a conversation that is political in a rational and slur free manner. Perhaps if you got a thesaurus and alternated calling them dispicable with other words like heinous, vile, and reprehensible, they'd take it much better.

REPLY: Huh? When have I started a conversation or EVER used a racial slur? This, good sir is the kind of insult that qualifies for a duel. You should be ashamed of yourself.

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neither party deserves a saintly position, but the anything for power, say anything but what you really stand for method of the Dems is tired. GWB actually is pretty centrist. I'm not particularly religious, but as long as there is tolerance of religions, I'm tolerant of them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


GWB isn't centrist, and as far as tolerance among the religious right, I'm curious the historical precedent. Recent events suggest they approve curbing the liberty of groups who have broken no crime the government recognizes. What's their history on alcohol and witches?

REPLY: Christians as a group are not a uniform, goose-stepping religious right. Sure, some of these guys give me the willies. But you cannot deny that it was concepts brought to our culture by protestant Christianity - hard work, fair play, honesty, tolerance, et al that laid the groundwork for our modern society. It was Christian womens groups who covertly and overtly fought slavery, and it was Christian groups who launched the civil rights movement. As our society only recently opened up from the more theocratic past, it is easy to look at religious people with a jaundiced eye. But for every group of them that did bad things in thier interpretation of the message, you can point to much good as well. People are people, but one cannot deny the positive impact of Christian virtues on our society.

I find it ironic tha the Christians are so vilified, yet we are scared to point out that Islam has produced 1400 years of war, exactly as it's scriptures instructs its folowers. A far cry from the Orthodox protectors of Byzantium being forbidden sacrements during war time because killing was a sin.

I see a group that is unfairly villified. I mean, I used to watch Jerry Fallwell because I thought it was a comedy-variety show, and was surprised to learn otherwise. But that group is just a segment of the over all group.

[MoreMisfortune]

you did read my post
you wont admit it now :D

[diego]

Originally posted by red5angel
yeah but they're all screwin you! and my third eye tells me kerry is a punk...why i'm ****ed tho is now we have a proven punk...at least with kerry there was a lil hope...even if that hope was based on hopeless prayers:)

[diego]

Originally posted by diego
and my third eye tells me kerry is a punk...why i'm ****ed tho is now we have a proven punk...at least with kerry there was a lil hope...even if that hope was based on hopeless prayers:) on the real when 911 hit i actually had a thought that everyone would unite to get rid of the sickness...instead bush opened up the propaganda campaign and got onsome hollywood shiat and thoroughly disgraced america...i actually thought the states and canada and every free nation would start working together as with all our technology we could do alot of good unified and a lot of bad will come out of our technology in the future if we don't act together and get to work....watching all the unity around 911 actually made me think that would happen...fuq happenned?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Father Dog,
I was being somewhat tongue in cheek. I personally feel todays American left has a lot more to do with National Socialism than Communism. Look at them, a bunch of billionaires and millionares that feel that 'other' people should pay more taxes,


First of all, all politicians, Republican or Democrat, are billionaires and millionaires.

Second of all, Democratic tax proposals all involve billionaires and millionaires paying more taxes, so I'm not sure why you say they feel "other" people should pay more taxes.



live with greater restrictions, have thier opportunnities limited in exchange for some sub-standard handouts.


What greater restrictions? The only real restriction prevalent in the Democratic platform is strong gun control - this happens to be one of the major areas I disagree with Democrats on, in fact - other than that, Democratic policies tend to refrain from restricting people's actions. Originally, so did Republicans, being the party of smaller government and less individual interference, but recent years have seen the party move away from that and start attempting to legislate morality - ie, expansion of law enforcement powers (yes, this happened under Clinton, too, but was extended by miles under Bush using 9/11 as a rallying call) and strong enforcement of pornography and sodomy laws (restriction on victimless private activity that the government should not be involved in).

What restrictions have the Democrats attempted to enshrine in law?



It's the super-rich trying to buy off the poor - the Fascist model.


That's not the fascist model at all - fascism classically taxes everyone (especially the rich, but mainly through inheritance taxes rather than income taxes) and uses the money for government-controlled industry and corporate welfare, /not/ individual welfare and social programs. Fascism consolidates power and wealth among the elite, keeping the super-rich rich and the poor poor. Progressive taxation and welfare redistributes money from the super-rich to the poor, flattening the bell-curve of distributed wealth. The Democratic economic platform is close to being the total opposite of that of fascism; you're just wrong on this.



Plus, look at the model the fascists used: extreme nationalism, storming/shooting up rival offices, extreme intolerance for views other than thier own - these are the tactics of today's American left.

I saw far more extreme nationalism from the right than the left. I didn't see shooting up rival offices from either side. I saw extreme intolerance of other views from both sides.

I suspect you are seeing what you want to see, here.



At least the Republicans are honest about where they stand. I don't agree with all thier stances, but at least they are less destructive than the Left.

I don't agree with you, but I can acknowledge that we may believe in different economic and social theories, and agree to disagree regarding which group will be less destructive. Your comparisons of the modern Democratic party to fascism, though, are really off-base, especially in the economic sense..

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by red5angel
personally, I think we should go with a socialist government and keep the economy capitalist. I think AMerica would be that much stronger for it. You just socialize public works, medical, all that stuff.

Holy ****, I just agreed with something red5 posted on a political thread?

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
personally, I think we should go with a socialist government and keep the economy capitalist. I think AMerica would be that much stronger for it. You just socialize public works, medical, all that stuff.

When talking about social program implementation, it's important to distinguish between the funding and the delivery. People seem to usually only consider the extreme alternatives: private funding with private delivery, or public funding with public delivery (state-controlled). When you say "socialize public works" it sounds like you're advocating the latter model -- "socialist" tends to mean state-control. However, I think the ideal model is mixed: public funding with private delivery. In this case, we get the benefits of both models: the universality of publicly funded programs with the efficiency and liberty of private delivery.

Moreover, this mixed model is inherently applicable to the goal of 'keeping the economy capitalist', whereas the alternative isn't -- as public works account for a large portion of the economy.

[Mika]

Substance?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Merryprankster
You know....


I am appalled at the idiots on the far left who believe the war in Iraq was for oil. I am appalled at people who believe that this administration is imperialist, or that U.S. foreign policy "caused" the problems that are ongoing and have been for generations. I am disgusted with their absurd conspiracy theories about megacorporations running the United States. They have nothing but their own vapidity as proof....and if you prevent evidence to the contrary, you've either been brainwashed, you're stupid or both.

I am appalled that if you don't see the message of the left you're obviously an idiot. I am equally horrified that if you disagree with the right, you're evil or at the very least, morally corrupt.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Originally posted by Mika
I don't mean to challenge you or anything, that's not what this is about, but you must get these ideas from a source, so I just would like to look into it myself. Iz all...:cool:

Good message, though :)

Cheers :)

Mika


Merry, I see you are still here and posting. Come up with the goods, please :)


Sources, baby, sources :)

//mika

[SifuAbel]

interesting map.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041105/480/nyet26311051453

[jun_erh]

Did anyone see Bush's press conference yesterday? hahaha He's trying to be like a real president!! I didn't ponder one thing he said, I just laughed at how dumb he was and how he thinks he's my president. Let him try to show his face in any blue state. God what an idiot.

[Merryprankster]

Merry, I see you are still here and posting. Come up with the goods, please

I don't know what sources you want me to post.

"The Iraq war was about oil."

"The United States is imperialist."

"Big business runs the United States."

"The administration orchestrated 9/11 or [insert conspiracy theory here] as an excuse for war in Iraq.

"Bin Laden and Bush are friends..."

I've heard all this and more from idiots on the far left. I've heard lots of these used as justifications for voting for Kerry. Poke around google if you like.

I've heard equally stupid stuff from people on the far right:

"We have to protect ourselves from the UN, because they want one world government and that's a sign of the Apocalypse."

"Kerry would let the rest of the world dictate when we can use force."

"Kerry is a traitor and betrayed our troops."

"The left wants to force ****sexuality down our throats."

"Kerry is a baby-killer."

I mean, the hyperbole is one thing, but people actually BELEIVE this stuff. That's what's spooky. And if you don't agree with "them," then you're one of the sheeple.

It's like people forget that two, three or more people can look at the same information and come to different, supportable (this being the KEY, vice say, 'a missile hit the Pentagon') conclusions.

[norther practitioner]

I'm just scared of the unbalance now...

There are some in Congress now who will have some support that are way out there on the right.

[WinterPalm]

The United States is an imperial power. They are an empire, there is no doubt about that. I do not hail from left or right, they are both full of, as your post shows, nonsense, the truth of the matter is still that the US is now a superpower and without constraints, the WTO and the UN cannot enforce anything to prevent the US, the only constraint should be the people but that doesn't seem to be preventing what is happening. But I can't dismiss the Empire thing, that is the simple truth.

[rogue]

Don't be a ninny, we are not an empire and don't care to be one. Anyways the U.N. can't enforce much. Hey if your worried about America being too involved write those who represent you and tell them to send troops to the Sudan and straighten that mess out. Or send troop to Iraq and keep an eye on us.


"The left wants to force ****sexuality down our throats." Well that's one placed it could be forced!:eek: :eek: :D

[WinterPalm]

. a. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority. b. The territory included in such a unit.
2. An extensive enterprise under a unified authority: a publishing empire.
3. Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control:

This is from a dictonary on the internet.

The US owns Hawaii and all of the lower portion of north America as well as Alaska. To get this territory native tribes had to be amalgumated. The US owns a considerable amount of islands in the Western Pacific. The US owns Guantanamo bay. These are all territories across the world that are run by a supreme authority, sometimes referred to by American leaders as the almighty. Regardless, a central authority dictates this.

The US seeks, through the World Bank, and to a lesser extent, especially in the past, to dominate other countries. Look how they treat Mexico and Canada. Look at Iraq and most of SOuth America including Vietnam in the sixties and seventies. This is all domination and now, with Iraq and Afghanistan, control.

I personally believe that most don't want an Empire from America, empires don't do too well in the long run, they burn out. But the continuing conquests by the US are domination and contol, they are imperial in their nature.

Bush has said he is making history. I agree. But I think that the history he is making is not what he intends to make. Whether or not it is for the better good remains to be seen. Unfortunately the UN cannot enforce anything because the country it needs to enforce regulations against is the US. Not to say they are the only violating country, but they are not an example for the world to follow like they seem to think.

The members of the UN all offer a bit to the world, the US is the might. But that might should not be used for conquest and war. Domination is not going to win them any friends and eventually, bullies all get beat up.

[SifuAbel]

No, we are more a directorate that an empire, we don't colonize anymore. If anything the world has continued to colonize us. We won't own them, but we will boss them. And no matter what kind of pie in the sky Rogue lives in, we are not in a paradise and all is not well.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
I'm just scared of the unbalance now...

There are some in Congress now who will have some support that are way out there on the right.

The old boys are trying to make this 1957 again.

[diego]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I don't know what sources you want me to post.

"The Iraq war was about oil."

"The United States is imperialist."

"Big business runs the United States."

"The administration orchestrated 9/11 or [insert conspiracy theory here] as an excuse for war in Iraq.

"Bin Laden and Bush are friends..."

.

the isrealis have been up in the pockets of the states for a minute...read in a book about the founding of jerusalem after ww2 that the brits gave up and let the un vote for it and the states forced many in the un who didn't want to vote for it with threats...in the book it said the states only let like 5000 jews come into the states after ww2 but let 100,000s go into jerusalem by giving it to the jews...so basically it said the jewish american bankers were up in sams pockets and sam didn't want all the refugees to come into the states....the brits and the states are still a team and the white man has trying to take over the world since slavery days...maybe it's not legal anymore but many in power still wish for the good old days so maybe they can't legally hold slaves but i wouldn't put it pass them to do some criminal actions to get what they want in this age.

bush and bin laden were in business together...bush ran the cia...bush looks like a crook to me so until you prove otherwise i wouldn't put it pass that nazi fuq and his arab buddies to pull some sick shiat like 911 to get the public supporting the wardeveloper buddies....the old men running america give two shiats about iraqis or any colored poor people they are not there out of righteousness or they would have been up in chinas azz for fucqin up tibet etcetc...maybe it wasn't just about oil and securing security for the isrealis trying to stop the arabs and all muslems from forming one state in the middle east...but i doubt ya boy cu-ntface bushkilla cares about muslem women being forced to wear a veil and shiat

prove otherwise and maybe i will have some trust for ya guvment reps but all i know is i wouldn't put it pass them especially with how almost criminal bush's propaganda christian moral right manifest destiny campaign has been for a longazz minute.:)
cheers

[ZIM]

Oh, sure. Didn't you know that Israel is going to be the 51st state [Puerto Rico was taking waaay too long to happen] and that we're looking at Athabasca's tar sands for development into oil refineries?

C'mon, you didn't seriously think we'd **** off our environmental lobbyists, do you? Besides, the Middle East doesn't have enough oil for us. Shoot, I keep spilling all the barrels I got in my backyard as it is, they're so slippery. At this rate, I'm going to have to enslave prob'ly 3 more injuns just to get enough paychecks going to support my barefoot & pregnant wife & keep 'em all in oil.

Yes, we DO eat the stuff. We boil babies in it. Black, gay, crippled, atheist babies. But only the girls. Its what we have in common with the Jews, didn't you know?

I'd be seriously dubious of *any* book written about the time of WWII that mentioned crap about "jewish bankers", dude.

[rogue]

Abel, I can't help it if I live well and have a positive outlook on things.

WinterPalm, here's some info on Gitmo (http://www.nsgtmo.navy.mil/)
According to the lease we have the "the right to exercise complete jurisdiction and control within and over the area. In turn, the United States recognized the ultimate sovereignty of Cuba over the leased areas." Some empire.

[diego]

Originally posted by ZIM
Oh, sure. Didn't you know that Israel is going to be the 51st state [Puerto Rico was taking waaay too long to happen] and that we're looking at Athabasca's tar sands for development into oil refineries?

C'mon, you didn't seriously think we'd **** off our environmental lobbyists, do you? Besides, the Middle East doesn't have enough oil for us. Shoot, I keep spilling all the barrels I got in my backyard as it is, they're so slippery. At this rate, I'm going to have to enslave prob'ly 3 more injuns just to get enough paychecks going to support my barefoot & pregnant wife & keep 'em all in oil.

Yes, we DO eat the stuff. We boil babies in it. Black, gay, crippled, atheist babies. But only the girls. Its what we have in common with the Jews, didn't you know?

I'd be seriously dubious of *any* book written about the time of WWII that mentioned crap about "jewish bankers", dude.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0671662414/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-4329877-9119359#reader-link

here's the book...haven't read it in a minute but i'm pretty sure it posted the qoutes of the then american prez flipping out about making the un vote cuz the american jews were bugging him...i'm open to correction it's the best way to study!.:)

the book gives all three sides accounts and it is like 700 pages...the brits lieing to the jews and the arabs...the brits fuqing over the arabs in favor of the jews...the brits getting fed up and giving it to the un...the states taking over basically and giving two ****s about the issue pretty much like they always do until they pockets start slimming...is this book legit or what? got it from my friends grandma a long with a bunch of books on british literature...pretty sure she ain't a conspiracy buff....gave me books on churchill and queen victoria and mad mad boring shiat:)

[SifuAbel]

Rogue,

People who live with rosy colored glasses don't see the big red train hit them.

[diego]

Originally posted by rogue
Abel, I can't help it if I live well and have a positive outlook on things.

WinterPalm, here's some info on Gitmo (http://www.nsgtmo.navy.mil/)
According to the lease we have the "the right to exercise complete jurisdiction and control within and over the area. In turn, the United States recognized the ultimate sovereignty of Cuba over the leased areas." Some empire.

Rouge since you into posting links can you help me with my history?:)

the extremist muslems claim they will not relent until america gets far far away from their borders and take the yanks jewish friends with them know what i mean?...where in the muslem countrys does the american army reside...i know yall got bases in saudi arabia but i'm curious to find out exactly where the yanks have bases and how many peeps so called "colonizing" the muslem lands....why are the extremists feeling so flustered by the american presence?.

[Mika]

Merry, I see your angle now. OK, no problem :cool:

Cheers :)

Mika

[jun_erh]

Kerry is intelligent. Bush is un-intelligent.


If you were on a desert island who would you want as your leader?

[David Jamieson]

I heard and interesting point this morning. It is good food for thought and may provoke some interesting responses.

Here it is:

George W Bush is defined by Saddam and Bin Laden as each of them are defined by Bush. Where are they and what do they stand for without each other?

These men are all intrinsically/extrinsically connected, especially in context to world events in the last 12 or so years.

Also, Bertrand Russell once said and I'll paraphrase, "Only stupid people are ****sure of themselves all the time".


..anyway

[jun_erh]

what an indictment of the canadian school system

[David Jamieson]

I don't understand where you're coming from with that comment Jun, the comment was made by Deepak Chopra.

Really has little if anything at all to do with the school system in Canada.

[jun_erh]

Deepk chopra is a self help guru.

name the three branches of government in the US

[David Jamieson]

way to minimize a pretty profound thinker and author .

your three branches are legislative, executive and judicial. so you know something about government in Canada? And what exactly is your point?

By the way, beligerence is a natural extension of fear.

[rogue]

Rogue,
People who live with rosy colored glasses don't see the big red train hit them.
But Abel, always looking at problems that aren't there is just as bad. I'm a positive person, but that doesn't mean I don't see reality.

[David Jamieson]

someone once said:

"we don't see things as they are, we see things as we are".

I am thinking that this is in many cases, true.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Well, it seems that many people perceive a problem.. now, people can continue to lament the injustices and shortcomings of the perceived problems.. or, they can begin to discuss solutions.. find a plan that works.. cultivate that plan into a course of rational action and set about the task of implementing it.. or, they can continue to lament.. in two years there is an opportunity to rebalance the power in the US gov't, in 4 years there is an opportunity to make your voices heard regarding the leader of the planet's most powerful nation.. i hope those opportunities hear more than lamentations...

Be well...

[jun_erh]

Bob- I think liberals need to learn to mix it up better. I think CNN needs to bite the bullet and become the liberal fox news. They get accused of it anyway and they are in a very milquetoast sort of way. Liberals make way better movies and write much better books than conservatives, but they aren't as good on their feet. They (we) need to accept that their is a fight between left and right and fight for what they believe in. Only then will the "common" folk accept what they have to say.

This is not to say liberals should become bomb throwing commies. Just that they need to present what they REALLY believe. Lawrence O'Donnel does it on MSNBC. Amy Goodman does on Democracy now. There were MILLIONS of Americans who were totally OPPOSED to the Iraq war. The only anti-war voice you'll hear on one of the talk shows is PAT BUCHANAN!!

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by rogue
But Abel, always looking at problems that aren't there is just as bad. I'm a positive person, but that doesn't mean I don't see reality.

problems that aren't there?!?!?!?

Are you ****ing blind and stupid????

[WinterPalm]

I agree with SifuAbel. Possibly Rogue might need to switch Fox news to something a little more balanced or leave the country and get an outsider perspective. While people continue to vote for Bush, he continues to cut off their food supply and rob them blind. It's sad that people will trade a bit of moral ideology for their livelihood.

But TaiChiBob is right, we need to stop lamenting and strat restructuring our countries from the neigborhoods up to the state or provincial level. The government does not represent us anymore, we need to move on.

[rogue]

Yup, I'm clueless and dumb as a post. You guys are just so much smarter than the rest of us.

[SifuAbel]

Ok then, at least you're not in denial anymore.