Wong Shun Leung HK interview

[Ernie]

Just got sent the VCD by a friend , skimmed it Wong talks about the [ modern] history of wing Chun , his first meeting with yip and a whole lot more
Just wanted to know if this is a rare video or do most people have it ?
As with the SLT seminar , it’s translated into English and I have been instructed to pass it to certain WSL sifu’s as long as they don’t try and sell it
After that I will start leaking it around ,

Real cool for the history buffs out there , considering he gives his account to a few stories that were floating around

If this is already out their and many of you have it cool guess I was just late

[Vajramusti]

Ernie= what are some of the highlights specially on the art-
state of the art etc.

[Vajramusti]

Ernie= what are some of the highlights specially on the art-
state of the art etc.
If it's an interview- it is somewhat public isnt it?
Would interest everyone, I would think.

Joy

[Ernie]

oy i'm running late for class
didn't get to watch it just skimmed it

i'll check it out when i get back home tonight

it was a tv interview so yep it's public

but the other stuff i got is not all seminars

[russellsherry]

hi earnie, if you could spare a copy mate i might send you a dvd
of danny inosanto austraian tape or so i will put on larry hartswell as well and some otjher stuff on my first sifu see if gary knows him oh earnie i will be training with dan on the 19 0f decemeber peace russell sherry

[Jeff Bussey]

:cool:

I'm interested too.

J

[captain]

some WSL questions,folks.

1,did WSL really mix western boxing with wc?
2,did WSL really fight and get taught a lesson from
a wc man,and that's why he began wc?
3,did WSL fight the thais ever?

sincerely,

Russ

[Frank Exchange]

Hopefully Dave Peterson is around to give you in depth answers, but in the meantime, to the best of my knowledge

1. No. But he was a boxer and a scrapper before he was a wing chun man, so it gave him a different perspective, and he certainly fought boxers. He tried to make WC very simple, direct and efficient, which he may have absorbed from boxing.

2. Yep. He went to Yip Man class, thought it was rubbish, and polished of a student easily. Then a higher level student beat him, and finally he asked to have a go with Yip Man. He claims that what impressed him was that YM never had to actually hit him, he just controlled him at every stage, eventually tying him up into a corner.

3. Don't know. Gary Lam, one of his students certainly did. Ernie knows more about that.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by captain
some WSL questions,folks.

1,did WSL really mix western boxing with wc?
2,did WSL really fight and get taught a lesson from
a wc man,and that's why he began wc?
3,did WSL fight the thais ever?

sincerely,

Russ

I think he mixed the attributes from boxing with his Wing Chun and not the movements. If you are a fighter already then you will also be a fighter if you learn Wing Chun. Boxing is still one of the best fighting arts.

I read in a Chinese publication that a bunch of senior students of Yip Man including Wang Kiu, all entered into a tournament in Hong Kong and all of them lost. Then they realized that success in chi sau and success at street fighting was not the same as success in ring combat. I think the almost 100% chi sau model with minimal conditioning, worked ok in the street because the guy rushed into chi sau range or you the WC guy rushed in and immediately they were in chi sau range with neither having grappling skills. However in tournament combat it wasn't so easy to close the distance. In cases where it was, easy then those folks also have confident close range skills whether it was Thai boxing, SanDa, Judo, etc.

Some clubs then re-evaluated their training methods and some actually dropped Chi sau out of the curriculum opting for boxing type of training. Those people had a much better success rate in ring competition.

Just what I heard many times and read, I wasn't there.

Ray

[Ernie]

Ray-I think he mixed the attributes from boxing with his Wing Chun and not the movements. If you are a fighter already then you will also be a fighter if you learn Wing Chun. Boxing is still one of the best fighting arts.


I tend agree but not for the reason you listed
First a few things to think about , not much in the way of great boxing going on in Hong Kong in the 50’s so WSL exposure to boxing I’m sure was no were near the caliber of what we know and see today
But I do feel his exposure to the training methods in boxing and to full contact sparring gave him a clear goal and no BS filter to view and learn wing chun from ,
He new what to look for and how to use it and was not afraid to test it [ when you fight many universal truths come out when you stay stuck in the training system anything can work ]
That’s why there is such simple clarity to his approach no fluff , it wouldn’t hold up under the WSL approach [ training methods ] things are so direct and explosive and no chasing hands that your game has to be tight or you bleed .

So when I see him move I see only clean and clear wing chun , no extra this or that , not a wing chun guy using boxing there is a huge difference , you see a Wing chun guy being efficient with wing chun
After watching the interview [ I just finished ] it cleared up a lot of reasons why there are so many [ other wing chun approaches ] out there
He was very honest about training under Yip , who really spent the most time there and spending the most time didn’t really translate into who had the greatest understanding of the skill

He also makes it point to not put himself up on any pedestal ,

As we have heard yip had a lot to do with different interpretations of the art , the guy never intended to be a teacher so when he learned , it was not in the same way a person taking notes and planning on teaching would learn , so a lot of stuff was forgotten and bits and pieces would change and resurface as the years went by , especially in the wooden dummy

He speaks on all the rumors and his seniors , he is a very humble and respectful person , but he is also honest , pretty much all the big names are brought up by the reporter [ you can tell he is trying to corner Wong ] but Wong is a honest man so there was really nothing to hide .
Got to get back and watch the second cd now =)

[YongChun]

Wong Shun Leung had all those good attributes yet his training model that he passed on to students is the same as everyone is complaining about these days as not being effective. He followed the normal model I talked about of forms, drills, chi sau, sparring and then going out to fight with not all of his students opting for the last step. Those who did the last step were most likely better fighters. I think WSL also lost in the competition mentioned in that Hong Kong book. He and Wang Kiu buddied around and did a lot of stuff together. Yet there still seemed to be a rivalry between the two with students switching from one to the other. I found WSL to be more talkative and open and didn't mind if a student argued with him. Wang Kiu was more traditional where you don't question the teacher. In both cases you respect the guys knowledge but I like the comfortable atmosphere where you are allowed to question better as opposed to the Japanese model where you are told to shut up and do as you are told. Of course you put a lid on students who would rather talk than train.

Ray

[Ernie]

Your right
but his method of training is more intense , pressure cultivation directness
very get to the point oriented

and he was out fighting within a year

so the need to get it right was there

most of the WSL cats i have come across are real direct and powerful very balistic

that part is still there but as for them taking the next step

to each there own ;)

i'm sure WSL lost more then one fight , most real fighters lose almost as much as they win
it's how you grow

the thing i look at is the setting of the goal and the filter you use
that part holds my interest

and what methods he used to cultivate functional fight skills and explosive direct power

the rest doesn't really matter to me much

ray as for the process you describe every martial art has it nothing new
it's how you do it and what you try and get out of it

[YongChun]

One of our female Chinese members visited Wong Shun Leung in Hong Kong in the late 80's. She said the students were doing intense chi sau with bleeding noses and split lips. She asked those guys whether they liked that kind of training and they said yes because they wanted to be sure the stuff was going to work on the street.

Ray

[Vajramusti]

Ray and Ernie---
the bit about boxing is a bit overdone. Hong Kong was not and is not much on the radar screen of the boxing world. Yes putting on the gloves and flailing in a private school context- not much beyond that.

I have never heard much about Wang Kiu- except for mostly Ray's posts- naturally.

The wing chun real fighters that I know of all did chi sao- though a rocking socking version when preparing for a fight. Chi sao is a continuum-different kinds-- different intensities. Of course it can be supplemented but without chi sao there is a chance that one is heading for jkd, kenpo etc IMO anyways.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YongChun
One of our female Chinese members visited Wong Shun Leung in Hong Kong in the late 80's. She said the students were doing intense chi sau with bleeding noses and split lips. She asked those guys whether they liked that kind of training and they said yes because they wanted to be sure the stuff was going to work on the street.

Ray

yep,
that is what my first few years at gary's was like , never left a class with out blood on my shirt mine and the people i trained with , his first generation guys were real hardcore , hospital visits did happen broken limbs and stitches

things have mellowed alot over that last few years , kind of miss the old days:D

but that type of intense chi sau chases alot of people away

[Vajramusti]

Going back to that WSL interview- is that one which includes his
view on the state of wing chun on the mainland?

[Ernie]

Joy

interview done by John de Vergillio just before Wong Sifu passed away, with Phillip Ng doing the translation,

this is the information i got so far ,

he didn't say anything about the mainland on this one , just alot of history and his fights and his gung fu brothers , some bruce stuff , some very cool stuff about yip and the dummy Etc....

[YongChun]

Ernie,

How about telling us a few things that WSL says on the tape instead of teasing us with it.

Ray

[Ernie]

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe heheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheeheheheehehe hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehhehehehehehe :)

well he talks about all the original group of yip's students , but to be honest i really don't pay attention to that stuff i do remember TST,LJ , LS and LT , and Wlliam C. Bruce off the top of my head there were a few more but me and chinese names don't mix very well i go flat line real fast :D

[YongChun]

That's even more of a tease. Wang Kiu used to talk about everyone as well, they probably had the same stories.

Ray

[Ernie]

I think he brought that name up to , I really do tune out when I hear Chinese words [ no disrespect intended ] just can't get remember them , good with most other languages though

he didn't talk about people in a bad way just honest and in a respectful way

what do you want to know

personally I care only for his understanding and application of wing Chun , the soap opera stuff doesn't interest me

[amjg2000]

John de Vergillio is a cool kat. He came out and worked out with us a few months back. I am going to Hawaii next month, gonna go drop by and see him.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by amjg2000
John de Vergillio is a cool kat. He came out and worked out with us a few months back. I am going to Hawaii next month, gonna go drop by and see him.

just got back from hawaii
and Gary will be in Hawaii monday for feng shui {people fly him all over for that stuff }

[kj]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
The wing chun real fighters that I know of all did chi sao- though a rocking socking version when preparing for a fight. Chi sao is a continuum-different kinds-- different intensities. Of course it can be supplemented but without chi sao there is a chance that one is heading for jkd, kenpo etc IMO anyways.

Yes. We also hear the stories of the early Hong Kong students, and naturally quite a lot about Leung Sheung's school. There was a water fountain outside the door of the school, and his students tell about how "there was more blood than water in it."

It used to be like that in my teacher's earlier years in San Francisco too. Always busted lips, bloody noses, and other injuries (usually superficial, but not always). And that was typical just from some patty-cake chi sau. Us old fahrts have to be more careful since things break more easily and we don't heal in a month of Sundays anymore. (For you young folk, month'o'Sundays is an old fahrt expression. ;)) It is still like that with some of the students, though I won't name names, LOL.

Regards,
- kj

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Would love to see this!

[sihing]

Yes me too Ernie. Are you planning on sharing it on a peer to peer anytime soon, lol. I sort of have a thing for stuff like this, I really don't know why but it intrigues me to know what it was like way back then.

Victor,
Does GM Cheung talk about the old days allot, or have you asked him anything like that? I remember at the Thunder Bay seminar he talked about some of those old stories, and one about Bruce Lee, and they both were at this place and there was a contest going on where they had to hit one of those speed bags where it is attached to the ceiling and floor and the bag is in the middle. The competition was to hit it as many times as you could in a certain time limit, so Bruce and William were there and it was Bruce's turn and the guy let the bag go and it was going everywhere and all Bruce did was hold his hand out and stop it in the middle hit it and did that again and again, lol. I found that story amusing and adhering to the logic in WC. GM Cheung also related allot of his personal stories of the fights he had and experiences like that, it was fun to hear them too. He has a good sense of humor William Cheung.



James

[Vajramusti]

KJ sez:

(For you young folk, month'o'Sundays is an old fahrt expression. )
------------------------------------------------------
This young fella knows that one.

[John D]

Joy,


Wong Shun Leung visited around southern China a number times. His parents came from Fatshan. He did not have anything kind to say about what he saw...he felt sorry for their good hearts but bad WC. For a while WSL had one of his head students teach in southern China but it was too big of a financial burden (not many maninland Chinese were willing to pay monthly dues) and the instruction soon ended.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes...James...I've heard many stories from William Cheung about the old days.

But I don't want to hi-jack Ernie's WSL thread.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Yes...James...I've heard many stories from William Cheung about the old days.

But I don't want to hi-jack Ernie's WSL thread.

hi jack away i just wanted to know if this interview was floating around out there or if i stumbled on something rare

:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't know if the interview has been out there before - but would love to see it sometime!

My favorite William Cheung story is about when he met up with Mas Oyama while in Europe back in the 1960's...a "match" took place that had no winner or loser...but very believable - precisely because of the outcome. (This wasn't some "you should have seen how I kicked his butt" story).

Some people in the Chinese community (forgot which country it was) arranged a "friendly" meeting with Oyama and his entourage (recall how big the name Mas Oyama was in the 60's - like Bruce Lee in the seventies/eighties and the Gracie's in the nineties)...

According to William a "friendly sparring match" was supposedly arranged between the two of them with a number of people from the oriental/martial arts community in attendance.

But according to William - the "crazy Korean" (as he referred to Oyama)...opened up with a flying sidekick that would have taken Cheung's head off had it connected - but William - standing in the (side body) neutral side stance... fully sidestepped it - and as Oyama was coming down he (Oyama) managed to grab William Cheung and they both went to the floor - with Oyama going for Cheung's back...and since Oyama had a massive build (William's words)...he didn't want him to secure a good grip while gaining his back - so he (William) threw a backwards elbow strike that caught Oyama flush in the face...made him release his grip - they both returned to their feet - Oyama's nose was bleeding - and the folks in attendance - fearing an all out war - ran in between the two men and stopped the "match".

Wish I could have seen that one.

[old jong]

Oyama was never a leaper and never considered using that kind of aeobatic strategies.He was a big man,very powerful with both feet on the ground.He was also a very traditional Karate man,not the "cinema flying side kick" type al all. His Karate is still a lot like he himself was,firm and strong,without any fancy amusements or stupid actions like attacking with a flying side kick!...Stuntmen will attack Seagal like this but again, it's cinema!...:rolleyes: ;)

He once mentioned using a leap (not a flying kick!)once to get close enough of a boxer in a fight in the U.S.! The boxer was very swift on his feet and he was hard to chase around the ring! He got close enough and got him with a knife hand to the ribs and it was over (1).
(1)Zen combat :Ballantine books

[Ultimatewingchun]

Back in the day...Mas Oyama wrote some books..."This is Karate"..."What Is Karate"...and then later on..."Advanced Karate".

"Advanced Karate's" first printing was January, 1970. And was reprinted many times; I'm looking at a hard copy of it right now as I'm posting. I bought it back in the very late seventies - the sticker price is still on it ($23.50). A lot of money in those days for a book.

On page 33 there are photos of a fighting sequence wherein a flying kick is used...another flying kick appears on page 89, and two more fighting sequence flying kicks appear on page 98 and 99...as well as two others that appear later on in the book as part of two different board-breaking demos.

Now granted - as one of my closest lifelong friends was/is a Kyo Kyushin Oyama style Karate instructor - so I'm aware of the changes that came about later on within the system (ie.- featuring low rear roundhouse kicks (ala Thai boxing - becoming especially popular in the "knockdown" Karate tournaments )...as well as some adjustments in the punching techniques (ie. - borrowing some blocks and strikes from western boxing)...

but back in the sixties and throughout most of the seventies - it was still a very traditional (albeit very effective) Karate style that Mas Oyama used and taught.

Can I personally vouch for William Cheung's story? No.

I wasn't there...and I don't know anyone who was there.

[old jong]

Hey Victor!
Sure these kicks are in existance in all branches of Karate.They have ,I believe a usage in certain contexts but certainly not as an opening move on a single opponent!...Unless Oyama was drunk on that occasion!!! ;) :D
Anyway,this thing just sound weird to me. Not intending to start a war on this topic. I was in kyokushin in 1975 or so and the style was already pretty much the same as we know it today.

[David Peterson]

Hi All!
Noticed that I had been mentioned as possibly being able to add to the discussion on one of these posts (Frank Exchnage?), so thought I should put in a brief comment or two.

First of all, WSL was very fond of boxing and had a boxing background when he came to WC - wasn't a title holder or anything, but had dabbled in a few fights and trained under a fair dinkum coach. Ended up leaving his coach after he landed a decent blow on the guy in training (no animosity meant, just a good punch) and was rewarded by a very hostile response. He ended up giving his coach a good thrashing and never returned to the gym.

While Sifu loved and admired boxing and boxers (he was a veritable walking encyclopedia of boxing history and would predict the outcome of a fight with incredible accuracy even before punches were exchanged simply by observing the two fighters when they entered the ring), he would NOT mix boxing with his WC. What he did do, however, is often have one of his students (or himself) take the role of the boxer, while the other used WC to deal with it, then reverse roles. Rolf Clausnitzer can certainly attest to this, having been involved in this kind of training many times back in the 60s.

As mentioned by one or more others, WSL used his WC in much the same way as a boxer uses his skills, stripping things down to the bare essentials and always following the philosophy of SIMPLE, DIRECT and EFFICIENT. He taught those of us lucky enough to have been his students to always meet an attack with an attack as often as possible, to hit from wherever the hands were, utilising the nearest weapon to the closest target - this is what boxing helped him to see and apply in terms of his WC - no "chasing the hands" or unnecessary motion, not to mention seeing the logical and practical interpretations of the movements of the forms, rather than getting tangled up in over-analysis and complication.

Concerning the "fight" at Yip Man's school, the interview that Ernie has been informing you all of sets this story straight in Sifu's own words, but to paraphrase it, WSL easily (and with largely boxing skills and a fighter's attitude) overcame two of the students present at the school that day, then had a brief "match" with Yip Man who easily controlled him without having to actually hurt him (this impressed him so much that he ended up returning to the school to train despite feeling that the other students weren't too much chop). Following that exchange, senior student Yip Bo Ching arrived at the school and, after brief coaching from Yip Man in the kitchen, had a "match" with WSL. As Sifu himself describes it, he neither won nor lost this "match" but it confirmed his desire to study what Yip Man had to offer. Funny thing was that until he'd been training there for quite a while, he didn't know what he was actually learning. He'd always wanted to learn the art of 'Fatsaan Leung Jan' but had no idea that's what Yip Man was teaching. Some time after commencing his training, he mentioned that desire to Yip Man who then told him, to his surprise and delight, that it was Leung Jan's art that he was indeed practising. The rest, as they say, is history... ;)
DMP

[Vajramusti]

David thanks for the summary of the interiew.

Your sifu- so I understand- once made a remark that he did not think that the wing chun on the mainland was very good Do you know anything about that?

Also apparently mainland government officials had once approached him to reintroduce wing chun in the PRC. True?

[Vajramusti]

"But according to William - the "crazy Korean" (as he referred to Oyama)...opened up with a flying sidekick that would have taken Cheung's head off had it connected "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The story lacks credibility.

[black and blue]

So speaks the voice of authority.

[Kevin Bell]

Hey Ernie,

Isnt there one kicking about of WSL demonstrating the effectiveness of the knives against a fencer or something along those lines done on TV in the eighties???

David:
Is there a part two to the interview with Rolf Clausnitzer talking of his experiences of Gloving up and Boxing with WSL?

Kev

[Ultimatewingchun]

A lot of things and people around here lack credibility.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Kevin Bell
Hey Ernie,

Isnt there one kicking about of WSL demonstrating the effectiveness of the knives against a fencer or something along those lines done on TV in the eighties???

David:
Is there a part two to the interview with Rolf Clausnitzer talking of his experiences of Gloving up and Boxing with WSL?

Kev

Kev
man i'm on the hunt for that knife vs fencing clip , and a beijing seminar as well

[Kevin Bell]

Well mate when you get that one let me know and i'll give you another five oclock in the morning wake up call:D :D :D :D

If you get over to the uk i'll give you that first hit for free i deserve that one!!!!Apologies again!

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Kevin Bell
Well mate when you get that one let me know and i'll give you another five oclock in the morning wake up call:D :D :D :D

If you get over to the uk i'll give you that first hit for free i deserve that one!!!!Apologies again!


now serving pak sau fried knuckles with a side order of groin kicks
taking ticket #1

ha ha no worries man

it's my lady you need to run from ;)

[Kevin Bell]

Just dont ever mention mention Chi or i'll revoke my offer!

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Kevin Bell
Just dont ever mention mention Chi or i'll revoke my offer!

if i ever start sounding like a fortune cookie it will be your duty to fly here and take me out ;)

[David Peterson]

Joy:

It is quite true that Sifu was not overly impressed with the standard of the WC that he saw in China and he always felt that the best of what the system had to offer had come out of China with Yip Man. He was well on the way to re-introducing the art to the mainland Chinese at the time of his death, having just prior to his passing conducted two very well received visits to Beijing where he demonstrated his skills and lectured on his interpretation of the system to an audience of China's most important police, public security and military officials. Sadly, others of lesser skill and driven by money rather than a true desire to share the art have attempted to "jump on the band wagon" since his passing, but have not succeeded to promote WC in the way that he was hoping to.

Kev:

Rolf and I have kicked around the idea of doing the follow-up to the first interview, but so far have not had much of a chance to put it together. However, in the interim, we have been also toying with an article about Rolf's other teacher, Greco Wong (with whom he collaborated to produce the first-ever English language book on WC), and this may be coming out soon. This has also inspired us to set about doing the second part of the WSL article so you may get your wish in the not-too-distant future :)

DMP

[Vajramusti]

CHI- there you have it,
I said the magic word and missed out!

[kj]

Originally posted by David Peterson
Rolf and I have kicked around the idea of doing the follow-up to the first interview, but so far have not had much of a chance to put it together. However, in the interim, we have been also toying with an article about Rolf's other teacher, Greco Wong (with whom he collaborated to produce the first-ever English language book on WC), and this may be coming out soon. This has also inspired us to set about doing the second part of the WSL article so you may get your wish in the not-too-distant future :)

I'll look forward to that.

Regards,
- kj

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by David Peterson

Kev:

Rolf and I have kicked around the idea of doing the follow-up to the first interview, but so far have not had much of a chance to put it together. However, in the interim, we have been also toying with an article about Rolf's other teacher, Greco Wong (with whom he collaborated to produce the first-ever English language book on WC), and this may be coming out soon. This has also inspired us to set about doing the second part of the WSL article so you may get your wish in the not-too-distant future :)

DMP [/B]


Thanks for that David i will keep an eye out..

Glad the postal service got its act together as well!!

Regards to yourself and Dave M

[couch]

If anyone comes to Calgary to see Greco Wong, be sure to drop me a line and come visit with another Moy Yat family!

[Vajramusti]

Thank you David- for answering my question.
Much appreciated.

Joy

[David Peterson]

You're welcome, as always, Joy :)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello guys,


It is quite true that Sifu was not overly impressed with the standard of the WC that he saw in China and he always felt that the best of what the system had to offer had come out of China with Yip Man.


I think this is kind of funny. Why? Because if you go to the mainland or speak with WC/Kung Fu from the mainland they will say the same exact thing for WC/Kung Fu outside the mainland. Lets face it guys! Good Wing Chun is Good Wing Chun. It does not matter if it comes from the mainland or somewhere else! These type of comments are mainly used to promote ones schools/lineage rather than discuss with honesty.

There is good and bad in Leung Jan Wing Chun, Yuen Say San WC, Yik Kam Wing Chun, Yip Man Wing Chun, etc. etc. etc.. Its not the art! Its the person.


Gotta run,

[captain]

David Peterson:

perhaps we on this forum could ask Rolf some questions that could be the base of the second part of the interview?

Russ.

[David Peterson]

Jim,

Please don't shoot the messenger....I am just relating what the man said, and he based this on what he had personally experienced, especially in regard to practicality. I don't dispute that there is good WC of various lineages all over the place, but there is most certainly a lot of crap out there as well, in terms of how it is taught and, more importantly, whether or not it is practical as a fighting art in the real world. WSL went out and tested his skills for real, something that most have not or do not do. If he came to the conclusion that much of what he saw was not up to scratch, I would tend to believe him. Most WC guys know how to talk the talk ("lip sau" as Ernie loves to call it), but few know how to walk the walk like WSL did.

With respect,
DMP

ps: Russ, good idea about asking Rolf some questions - I'm sure that he would be up to it.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello David!


How are you?


Please don't shoot the messenger....I am just relating what the man said, and he based this on what he had personally experienced, especially in regard to practicality.

I understand! hehe WSL was pretty practical and I am sure he could tell if something was functional or not. Problem is most stuff in the public is not so hot. I once heard a story that he had met Sum Nung and was very respectful towards him. As most are or were.

I don't dispute that there is good WC of various lineages all over the place, but there is most certainly a lot of crap out there as well, in terms of how it is taught and, more importantly, whether or not it is practical as a fighting art in the real world.

I agree with you and truly believe there is more crap out there than good! hehe

WSL went out and tested his skills for real, something that most have not or do not do. If he came to the conclusion that much of what he saw was not up to scratch, I would tend to believe him. Most WC guys know how to talk the talk ("lip sau" as Ernie loves to call it), but few know how to walk the walk like WSL did.

Wong was a good man. Good for WC reputation and good teacher of his way. He has produced good people which is a testimony to his ability as a fighter and teacher.

Now! The big question is WHO did he meet! Just kidding! I would not want that to be a public discussion! I have watched a lot of mainland WC and a lot of it is not so hot but there are a few groups that hold a very high standard of art and fighting. Same goes for WC outside China. A few groups hold a high standard.


David! Have a good one! Say hello to John Smith for me if you see him! He is a good guy!


Regards,

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, David, Kathy, Joy, Ernie, Russ, Ray, JIm, et al

I was thinking of responding earlier, before David's first posting, and wanting to set the record straight again for the umpteenth time.....but then I thought why bother? I'm too old for this constant clash of views and I am fortunate to have learnt that I would rather be happy than right :)

Nevertheless, as this is not just about refutation but also about responding to queries, I'll have another go. Rather than address individuals, I'll just list my points, in no particular order:

1) the view that western boxing in HK in the 50's was nothing to speak of is not correct. Apart from Joy, I reckon I know as much , if not more, about boxing than most people on this list. From my early childhood when my father introduced me to boxing , I have maintained a life long interest in and respect for boxing. It's all relative, of course, but in the 50's there were boxing gyms around, open tournaments were held regularly, and usually included boxers from the British armed forces stationed in HK, as well as visiting British and American sailors. There were performances as skilled and stylish as anything I have seen at international and professional levels since, even at schoolboy level.

2) as far as I know WSL did not take part/lose in a HK tournament. Apart from a controversial match against Greco Wong's Pak Hok teacher (which has been described variously as a win for WSL, a win for his opponent, and a draw:)), the only fight that WSL did indisputably lose (I even had that confirmed by his son, whom I had the fortune to meet when he visited Perth briefly last year) was in a tournament in Taiwan in the late 50's.

3) as for his first real intro to WC (I understand that he had picked up bits and pieces of WC from friends, prior to his visit to YM), WSL won his first bout and dispatched his second opponent, YM's nephew, Lo Man Kam (today a popular and successful teacher in Taiwan), even more quickly. His third fight, usually described as a win for his opponent, Yip Bo Ching, was described by WSL himself as inconclusive. He has also publically stated that if YM had not so impressively controlled and dominated him, he would not have taken up WC!

4) I have never heard of Wang Kiu exponents switching to the WSL style, but have heard the opposite many times. In Holland, for example, droves of WK followers switched to the WSL approach, simply on the strength of WSL's down to earth, scientifically flavoured seminars.

5) As for the BJD vs western fencing, Yip Man convincingly defeated a local British fencing instructor, but when asked for a return match, declined and nominated WSL instead. In any case, WSL outfought his opponent who became increasingly frustrated and hacked away at Wong with his sabre, inadvertently causing deadly serrations in the soft metal of WSL's swords. This led to an "accidental" injury to WSL's opponent and profuse bleeding, bringing the match to an end. This match was televised by HK tv and I think I speak for everyone when I say that it would be fantastic if the footage still existed and could be retrieved from the vaults. Is there anyone out there prepared to do make some enquiries the next time he or she is in Hong Kong? :)

6) The main reason why part 2 of the interview has not come out yet is because I am a stickler for historical accuracy. To explain, during my all too brief, but hugely influential and inspiring, 6 months with WSL, I was befriended from the start by Ron Li who became my training partner, interpreter, and drinking buddy, and I don't like the idea of describing events and people inaccurately. As Ron was there fot most of the time that I was there, I'd feel more comfortable with his corroboration. I lost touch with Ron about 5 years ago and have followed up several leads without success.

7) on my first night at WSL's informal (unofficial) rooftop school, he had me glove up and go against one of his students who had done about 5 years of WC. On another night, when I brought along a British friend of mine, WSL himself demonstrated his boxing skills against a student who used WC. Occasionally, I would play the boxer against WSL's WC students, and at other times, I would use WC against their boxing attempts. At the end of the third month, WSL and I had our first bout with gloves, without headgear. He took it fairly easy on me and used pure boxing, whilst I used a combination of boxing and WC, ie I alternated between the two, as I could not help myself :)
A month later, we went at it again. This time he came in hard and I used pure WC.

8) my e-book, which should have been completed more than a year ago (and my apologies to those whom I have let down), is now at the stage of getting ready to put on the computer. For a number of positive reasons, Brendan Mulvaney, an Irish practitioner of the Chu Shong Tin way, who dogged me, in the nicest possible way, to republish the book, will not be doing the publishing. Instead, a friend and I will be doing it from here, but as we are not experienced, it will be a bit of a trial and error effort. For a start, we have to seek advice on copyright and associated matters. For those who are interested, it will be an unusual update of my 1969 book. Besides the original text which will be reproduced virtually unchanged, there will be copious footnotes commenting on items in the original text, to flesh things out, to explain why I have abandoned some things or do different stuff today, to correct errors, etc. I have also, at Brendan's request, written several new chapters about my growing up in China and Hong Kong, to inject some human interest sand throw some light on why I have had a lifelong interest in the martial arts. This will have the effect of more than doubling the word content of the original book, so it will be better value this time. As I have been in semi retirement for a few years, I need to supplement my income, but will be charging a modest price :)

7) the interview on Greco Wong Wai Chung (Moy Yat's first senior disciple) that David and I are working on will be worth waiting for. Greco is such a modest and humble guy (a trait happily shared by many WC practitioners) that he has kept so much of this often startling info to himself. But I was fortunate to reestablish contact with him, after several decades, and thanks to the efforts of an intermediary, Greco's student, Tony Yung, was able to gather some amazing stuff. It seems that I'll have to be careful about naming people, as it could put noses out of joint.

8) when Wong and others talk about not being impressed by mainland WC, I am sure that they are talking purely about street fighting practicality and the potential for "ordinary people" to learn something quickly that they can use, without having to spend years learning a complicated system. I still have a number of published reports from numerous British and Australian practitioners, from various Yip Man lineages, who have travelled to mainland China over the last few decades to explore and train in the different Futshan based lineages. Invariably, they describe what they have tried (including crossing hands) as complex, rich, interesting, fascinating, different, but also, using language ranging from polite and diplomatic to unequivocal and plain, as not quite as practical, ie combat effective, and direct as HK WC.
That is not to say that there are no good fighters from the mainland lineages (for example, I have seen impressive footage of Sum Nung who, incidentally and ironically, moved in a very simple, direct, and compact YM way, in contrast to some of his students who appear to use large, circular flowing movements,as well as tortured looking stances which appear to make little sense from the point of view of modern biomechanics). But as a rough generalisation, with YM's move to HK there began a process, amongst a few, not many, of his students, of simplification, jettisoning, streamlining, stripping down, etc to make WC more street effective, easier to teach, and more user friendly to individuals wanting to learn how to protect themselves. I concede that this is a controversial subject and will have many opposing or contradicting me, but am reluctant to provide real life examples, personal as well as those of my WSL brothers, as they will only stir up negative feelings and serve to perpetuate the never ending ego driven arguments as to who is best.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Regards to all.

Rolf








Originally posted by David Peterson
Jim,

Please don't shoot the messenger....I am just relating what the man said, and he based this on what he had personally experienced, especially in regard to practicality. I don't dispute that there is good WC of various lineages all over the place, but there is most certainly a lot of crap out there as well, in terms of how it is taught and, more importantly, whether or not it is practical as a fighting art in the real world. WSL went out and tested his skills for real, something that most have not or do not do. If he came to the conclusion that much of what he saw was not up to scratch, I would tend to believe him. Most WC guys know how to talk the talk ("lip sau" as Ernie loves to call it), but few know how to walk the walk like WSL did.

With respect,
DMP

ps: Russ, good idea about asking Rolf some questions - I'm sure that he would be up to it.

[Vajramusti]

Great and informative post Rolf. No arguments from me.
And certianly not on WSL's fighting skills.
((Btw in passing I have actually rolled with WSL))
Just an explanation of POV.

Somewhat vicariously, I understand the early HK boxing scene.
Some similarities to Kolkata (Calcutta) in wartime(WW2 of course).
Brit army folks and police had boxing teams. Private schools(St Xavier's) had boxing teams. And the American headquarters for
airmen flying the hump into China was about 75 yards away from
my school. Ronnie Moore a police officer and boxing light heavy/heavy was my school coach. But I had already learned some key things from a Chinese son of a KMT consulate official.
My friend went on to be trained by the world champion middleweight Tony Zale.
Survival was important inmy generation-the dogs of war, independence movement and civil strife kiled thousands. I have seen more one on one brutality than mostsoldiers.
But Kolkata and I suspect HK was not the front burner for pro championship development. I am not questionong yours or WSL's comptence with gloves.
But its Americans who took the stiffer Brit version of boxing and revolutionized the art--until recently- filling the champion ranks
from lightweigh on up.Mobility and footwork all changed. Even today-lots of European fighters in the pros get US trainers. Some of the Olympic teams also have US or Cuban trainers.
When I came to the US- had a coach at Oklahoma with the great name Dewey SnorterLuster- he trained people for intercollegiate boxing which was stopped because of a ring death. My coach for later tournament work was AAU and GG national champion and friend welterweight Farrin Hottle who was on the US army team with Pete Rademacher. He dropped Rademacher witha stomach punch in training.Then a experienced pro heavyweight Doc London took over my training.He was a "peacekepper" in wresyling matches in Oklahoma.
So I know what heavyweight hits are like. The acdemic hat is not the only hat I have. Strange fella.I also boxed in "smokers" up in the northwest. Had one pro fight for pennies which I won. Thought about it- but didnt turn pro- to avoid a possible eventual speech impediment.Possible gave me typing impediment- what is Ernie;s excuse?
But on the street I adapted my boxing- my soccer legs(now much gone)
gave me some formidable options in survival. A brownie in redneck Oklahoma. At the University of Arizona I was the sponsor and assistant coach of the boxing club-meeting in Bear Down gym.
Then i met Fong's best student Danny Chan and I began to investigate wing chun in 1976- and fell in love with the art. Still retain my interest
in boxing-last Saturday was at near ringside for the Aussie-Russian Kotsya's powerful win over Sharmba Mitchell.
I h really havent discussed my background much- but I thought I would doa skinny.Just to explain aPOV- not for argumentation or chest thumping.

[Ernie]

what is Ernie;s excuse

just not into the comp.
love to work out and bang but no need for the lime light , still hang with pro K-1 and title holders

and i know when i am not on someones level , real pro's are a different animal

i'm not that good with or with out rules or gloves , but regular ]] smoker ]] cats no biggy , even before wing chun

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, Joy

I am delighted and appreciative that my post has evoked such a fascinating response from you.

Reading between the lines, I have long suspected that you have had some priceless and unforgettable experiences, but have kept quiet about them, until now. I can relate so easily to what you are saying, as I was born in Manchuria in 1941 and experienced WW2 and the Chinese civil war, under Japanese, Russian, KMT, and Communist ocupations.

I was pleased to hear you mention how the Yanks sort of loosened up the more conservative British way of boxing, as I had thought about saying the same thing myself, but forgot about it.....:) It was certainly noticeable when comparing the British and American boxers in HK (1954 to 1959).

I have been slowly gathering material for my autobiography (in response to countless requests over the years), and it may one day be published. Have you thought about writing yours? :)

Regards.

Rolf




Originally posted by Vajramusti
Great and informative post Rolf. No arguments from me.
And certianly not on WSL's fighting skills.
((Btw in passing I have actually rolled with WSL))
Just an explanation of POV.

Somewhat vicariously, I understand the early HK boxing scene.
Some similarities to Kolkata (Calcutta) in wartime(WW2 of course).
Brit army folks and police had boxing teams. Private schools(St Xavier's) had boxing teams. And the American headquarters for
airmen flying the hump into China was about 75 yards away from
my school. Ronnie Moore a police officer and boxing light heavy/heavy was my school coach. But I had already learned some key things from a Chinese son of a KMT consulate official.
My friend went on to be trained by the world champion middleweight Tony Zale.
Survival was important inmy generation-the dogs of war, independence movement and civil strife kiled thousands. I have seen more one on one brutality than mostsoldiers.
But Kolkata and I suspect HK was not the front burner for pro championship development. I am not questionong yours or WSL's comptence with gloves.
But its Americans who took the stiffer Brit version of boxing and revolutionized the art--until recently- filling the champion ranks
from lightweigh on up.Mobility and footwork all changed. Even today-lots of European fighters in the pros get US trainers. Some of the Olympic teams also have US or Cuban trainers.
When I came to the US- had a coach at Oklahoma with the great name Dewey SnorterLuster- he trained people for intercollegiate boxing which was stopped because of a ring death. My coach for later tournament work was AAU and GG national champion and friend welterweight Farrin Hottle who was on the US army team with Pete Rademacher. He dropped Rademacher witha stomach punch in training.Then a experienced pro heavyweight Doc London took over my training.He was a "peacekepper" in wresyling matches in Oklahoma.
So I know what heavyweight hits are like. The acdemic hat is not the only hat I have. Strange fella.I also boxed in "smokers" up in the northwest. Had one pro fight for pennies which I won. Thought about it- but didnt turn pro- to avoid a possible eventual speech impediment.Possible gave me typing impediment- what is Ernie;s excuse?
But on the street I adapted my boxing- my soccer legs(now much gone)
gave me some formidable options in survival. A brownie in redneck Oklahoma. At the University of Arizona I was the sponsor and assistant coach of the boxing club-meeting in Bear Down gym.
Then i met Fong's best student Danny Chan and I began to investigate wing chun in 1976- and fell in love with the art. Still retain my interest
in boxing-last Saturday was at near ringside for the Aussie-Russian Kotsya's powerful win over Sharmba Mitchell.
I h really havent discussed my background much- but I thought I would doa skinny.Just to explain aPOV- not for argumentation or chest thumping.

[Ernie]

sorry forgot to thank you Rolf , for the cool story

the most impressive thing is that WSL had the insight to train off boxers that far

back

now that is a ''tradition '' worth keeping and cultivating :)


leave to the floor back to ya old timers :p

[Vajramusti]

I have thought about it Rolf. Time is my enemy.

[Vajramusti]

I have thought about it Rolf. Time is my enemy.
Look forward to reading yours. Save me a copy for purchase when it's ready.

The most fascinating histories are those that weave in the stories of real people who can vivdly relate and recall cataclysmic times.

please say hello to Andrew W.

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, Ernie

Thanks.

My actual posting was much longer, but I could not send because it was too long :)

One of the things I left out will interest you and other like minded individuals: WSL told me in 1965 shortly before I left HK that he rated western boxing just below WC, but above other Kung Fu systems, precisely because of its more realistic approach to training..

In about a year's time, I shall report on the results of the use of WC concepts and techniques in the sparring/ring environment, as facilitated and encouraged by my colleague, Mannie de Matos, an extraordinary and innovative boxing coach and martial artist who has a genuine respect for simple and direct WC.

I am computer illiterate, but how do I get to see the footage of the WSL Beijing seminar?

Regards.

Rolf



Originally posted by Ernie
sorry forgot to thank you Rolf , for the cool story

the most impressive thing is that WSL had the insight to train off boxers that far

back

now that is a ''tradition '' worth keeping and cultivating :)


leave to the floor back to ya old timers :p

[R Clausnitzer]

So is mine....but I would urge you to have a go, Joy. Actually, there is not all that much around about that period of history, it's mostly earlier stuff or later recollections from the post 1949 era.

Ciao.

Rolf





Originally posted by Vajramusti
I have thought about it Rolf. Time is my enemy.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by R Clausnitzer
Hi, Ernie

Thanks.

My actual posting was much longer, but I could not send because it was too long :)

One of the things I left out will interest you and other like minded individuals: WSL told me in 1965 shortly before I left HK that he rated western boxing just below WC, but above other Kung Fu systems, precisely because of its more realistic approach to training..

In about a year's time, I shall report on the results of the use of WC concepts and techniques in the sparring/ring environment, as facilitated and encouraged by my colleague, Mannie de Matos, an extraordinary and innovative boxing coach and martial artist who has a genuine respect for simple and direct WC.

I am computer illiterate, but how do I get to see the footage of the WSL Beijing seminar?

Regards.

Rolf

hell i would put western boxing far above most wing chun as well just better training methods , but there a few guys out there that are not stuck in the '' arm chair '' ;)

love to hear about your boys results , been playing that game for the last five years , i'm just to much into a street fighting mindset to get into the whole ring thing :D

i don't have the Beijing seminar trying to get my hands on it i do have like 4 or 5 WSL seminars and the HK one that is floating around right now

:p :p

hit me up on my email , i'm sure you got more then me i'm not into collecting stuff just gets handed to me

[R Clausnitzer]

You said it, not I: "....far above most wing chun" :) I am sure that WSL was talking about how WC should be done, as opposed to how much of it is being done today. I am reminded of how another WSL great, Tommy Yim Yuen Keung (one of WSL's undefeated fighters until he came to grief against a Japanese karateka in a three nations tournament: he was leading on points until he suffered a broken arm from stopping a powerful kick with a complex gahn sao movement), when interviewed by Australia's John Smith, former CLF exponent and now a WC practitioner, said something to the effect that after racking up countless wins against other styles, WSL's guys started taking on other WC exponents in HK, and after similar results, were told by WSL "no more". This is not a put down, simply a reflection on the more intense, direct, and straightforward many WSL students train and practise, compared with others. As I said earlier, I can talk at length on this, but prefer not to. I once did, quite a few years ago, on another forum and ended up "shouting", I was that angry and fed up with the stuff that was being posted. I was met with a stunned silence, as usual, and am surprised that I was not reprimanded. I have, however, mellowed considerably since then. :)

By the way, Ernie you are on the right path, and one day you too will be posting as an old timer, shaking your head at the younger, less experienced generation of posters :)

It's ironic, I too think that the street arena is far more dangerous and life threatening, unlike one poster who persistently underrates street fighters. You, however, are way ahead of me in your preparation. All my street encounters have ended in my defusing the situation, the guys refusing to fight, and even running away on two ocasions. Sometimes I think I must be the world's oldest wannabe street fighter :)

Will email you offline soon.

Rolf




Originally posted by Ernie
hell i would put western boxing far above most wing chun as well just better training methods , but there a few guys out there that are not stuck in the '' arm chair '' ;)

love to hear about your boys results , been playing that game for the last five years , i'm just to much into a street fighting mindset to get into the whole ring thing :D

i don't have the Beijing seminar trying to get my hands on it i do have like 4 or 5 WSL seminars and the HK one that is floating around right now

:p :p

hit me up on my email , i'm sure you got more then me i'm not into collecting stuff just gets handed to me

[Nick Forrer]

Hi everyone,

This a good thread with lots of good info being shared..

I will do my best to share a lttle myself..

On WSLs younger days....Clive told me that WSL used to tell two stories about the japanese occupation of HK during WW2.

(Be warned........these are pretty gruesome..............)

1) When WSL was about seven a chinese man stole some rice to feed his starving family but was caught in the act. The Japanese decided to make an example of him so they gathered everyone in a public square and made a deep incision into the back of the mans head with a katana. They made everyone stay and watch while he bleed to death over two hours.

2) When teaching chum kiu and the double thumb gouge at the start WSL would tell the story of how whenever the chinese resistance took japanese prisoners they would use a chop stick to lever out their eye ball when interogating them, or just as an act of sadism.


On Mainland WC

As i write this my teacher and classmate are in HK visiting and training with WSL students. The annual dinner will also be this week. The last two years they have been to fatshan to look at the wing chun and comparisons were made. I have footage of a fatshan teacher playing the jong and then footage of a 70 year old yip man student playing it.....there is no comparision. The fatshan teacher is just wacking it with his arms. The HK guy in contrast has juen ma (turning stance) behind everyone of his actions.

Chu sau comparisions were also made - they mainly used the circling hands platform. when they did poon sau/lok sau and bong lap though it looked bad - not relaxed crisp and sharp but grabby, high (i.e. with no stance) and using lots of force.

OTOH, Wong nim yi (YKS lineage) who also gave a demo looked very good and had some real skills- so one does have to be wary of generalisations about the mainland.

I hope no one takes offence - these are just my impressions from what I (and others) have seen.

[kj]

Thanks for that tremendous post, Rolf. I feel a renewed sense of Wing Chun excitement just reading it!



Originally posted by R Clausnitzer
I'm too old for this constant clash of views and I am fortunate to have learnt that I would rather be happy than right :)

I admire the maturity and wisdom in this.

Anxiously awaiting your eBook. :)

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by R Clausnitzer
I have been slowly gathering material for my autobiography (in response to countless requests over the years), and it may one day be published. Have you thought about writing yours? :)

Please do!!!!


Originally posted by Nick Forrer
This a good thread with lots of good info being shared..

I will do my best to share a lttle myself..

Great stuff, Nick. Many thanks, and keep it coming.

Regards,
- kj

[Vajramusti]

Embedded in Rolf's early postwas this good statement:

But as a rough generalisation, with YM's move to HK there began a process, amongst a few, not many, of his students, of simplification, jettisoning, streamlining, stripping down, etc to make WC more street effective, easier to teach, and more user friendly to individuals wanting to learn how to protect themselves. I concede that this is a controversial subject and will have many opposing or contradicting me, but am reluctant to provide real life examples, personal as well as those of my WSL brothers, as they will only stir up negative feelings and serve to perpetuate the never ending ego driven arguments as to who is best.

---------------------------------------------------------------
True. Dont want the fur to fly---several points.

1.Not everyone learned from Ip Man directly for a long period of time-lets say six years or more.

2. Ip man himself evolved as a teacher and made improvements in wing chun. Many of Ip man's best students kept that evolving tradition.

3. The best of Ip man's students do not have a compulsive need to legitimize what they do by appeals to historical validation.
This is the way to doa bong sao and here's why sort of thing.

4. Understanding the principles of motion and effective/practical applications are the important things.

[Ernie]

1.Not everyone learned from Ip Man directly for a long period of time-lets say six years or more.

===== completely agree here now entering my sixth year and training 3 to 4 days a week as well as all my out side of school extra curricular activities , being considered a very fast learner , yet now I’m seeing there is much more under the surface , just takes time for the stuff to marinade and sink in , just because you can do it in a drill , doesn’t mean you got or full understand it , plus there are usually other underlined elements that make the whole thing gel and it takes flight time and experience to really understand and start to internalize those concepts , never really understood people that did a few years [ or month’s! ] and put on the sifu hat , even if you train 10 hours and day every day still takes time for it to sink in and time to experience it , just how the body and mind work

2. Ip man himself evolved as a teacher and made improvements in wing chuChunany of Ip man's best students kept that evolving tradition.

===== this is a very good and healthy thing for wing chun , never understood the guys that go backwards in time to learn the older versions of a system , for all the whoopla the stuff there calling original or what ever title is the most non efficient and corny parts that got dropped for a reason , it’s like dis respecting all the testing and fighting people did over time to go backwards and preserve something , that reverse engineering kills me =)

3. The best of Ip man's students do not have a compulsive need to legitimize what they do by appeals to historical validation.
This is the way to doa bong sao and here's why sort of thing.

===== well to be called the *best* what ever that means , they should have at least proven there approaches combatively to some degree , with out those checks and balances any bill of goods can be sold , that method should also be adaptable to many types of people not just fighters for example , application skill should be obvious and have a consistency under pressure out side of the school to keep things honest , would not want to go learn to fight from a guy that has never fought , just not logical

4. Understanding the principles of motion and effective/practical applications are the important things.

===== cultivate the basics under pressure and they will *prove* there worth to you and you will learn to *trust* them

I like when you guys let the fur fly a little old timers can be cool to =)

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
...even if you train 10 hours and day every day still takes time for it to sink in and time to experience it , just how the body and mind work

So true.



===== well to be called the *best* what ever that means ...

Paper, rock, scissors.

Regards,
- kj

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
===== this is a very good and healthy thing for wing chun , never understood the guys that go backwards in time to learn the older versions of a system , for all the whoopla the stuff there calling original or what ever title is the most non efficient and corny parts that got dropped for a reason , it’s like dis respecting all the testing and fighting people did over time to go backwards and preserve something , that reverse engineering kills me =)



It only makes sense in the following context:

1. Why would I learn from Gary Lam, an old timer, when I could learn from Ernie who is up to date? Why would I learn from Wong Shun Leung when I could be learning from Ernie?

2. Why would I learn from Kenneth Chung when I could be learning from Kathy-Jo?

3. Why would I want to learn from Yip Man when I could be learning from Moy Yat?

4. Why would I learn from Augustine Fong or Ho Kam Ming when I could be learning from Joy?

Not putting down anyone but it just depends on how evolved a current practitioner is compared with the previous generations. For me, I have thrown away some stuff I can’t do so if someone wants to learn that, then they are best of with my previous teachers.

I think lots of people can teach as long as they don’t make certain claims about themselves. If only those who meet the highest possible standards can teach (if only real physicists can teach high school physics) then maybe the art can’t be spread very far. Remy Presas was actually of the opposite opinion that everyone can teach. Perhaps he wanted a millions Arnis schools started up so that he would have a large base of schools to give seminars to. His idea was that as long as a real master visits all these schools, then the quality can be maintained with rigorous testing.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YongChun
[B]It only makes sense in the following context:

1. Why would I learn from Gary Lam, an old timer, when I could learn from Ernie who is up to date? Why would I learn from Wong Shun Leung when I could be learning from Ernie?
B]


Easy at least for me both Gary and Wong have WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY

more fight experience and teaching that skill then i do :D

the more i find out about Wong , and his training methods i see why Gary trains like he does
and that i'm not really breaking any *new* ground just keeping the same line of thinking going

Also Gary can still drop me :D
the dude can striaght up no BS still fight and has no problem showing that

no lets just chi sau stuff with him

for these reasons i would go to him first , i'm still finding my way on that path :cool:

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
the more i find out about Wong , and his training methods i see why Gary trains like he does
and that i'm not really breaking any *new* ground just keeping the same line of thinking going

Why, you traditionalist you! :p

I realize there is some snappy repartee in store to refute it. Still, I couldn't help but enjoy the irony even if for just a brief moment. :D

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

Originally posted by kj
Why, you traditionalist you! :p

I realize there is some snappy repartee in store to refute it. Still, I couldn't help but enjoy the irony even if for just a brief moment. :D

Regards,
- kj

Enjoy the moment , i'm sure i will ruin it some how :p