any weightlifters here?

[amjg2000]

Any weightlifters here? On non wing chun days, i do "HIT", high intensity training. It is a form of weightlifting that utilizes compound exercises, or commonly known as "big lifts", where you use multiple muscle groups. Examples are squats, deadlifts, clean and jerk, dips, bench press.

When i first started wing chun a few years back, I stopped weight training altogether, but started again a year ago. I feared that I would overtrain due to all of the strain on ones body.

[YongChun]

Here's a weightlifting thread:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6228

Ray

[SevenStar]

I lift daily. There are plenty of lifters on the training forum as well - check it out.

[Ernie]

off all real heavy stuff just work off hammer now ,
not enough time to maintain a big body [ around 200] takes to much recovery time

sitting around [ 180 ] now , this is easy to keep lean and still have plenty of juice when needed :)

[amjg2000]

Cool. I just lift to maintain size (small dude about 165lbs now, useta be 180lbs when i started wing chun). But i am still building strengh. But for my lil 5 foot 8 ass, its plenty of weight.

I am a hardgainer (classic ectomorph) so I can't really lift too much. I found that 2 sets of each exercise, one low rep set and one high rep set, works best for me.

lift every 7 days:

2 sets stiff legged dead lifts
2 sets weight dips
2 sets weighted chin ups
2 sets free standing military press with big bar
2 sets squats/leg presses

some calf and ab work and i am done. I too feel better at the lighter weight, I have more energy for clinch work, mat work, and all out ballz out sparring.

[Kevin Bell]

We had this debate on the WSL forum a few months back.

What's the reasoning behind you lifting weights? Are you looking for task specific exercises to Wing Chun?? i.e using strength WITHIN a technique not as the technique itself.Lets assume you are.

First of all we know that to move within everyday life we need to utilise muscles.Its no different with Wing Chun.If you train correctly you can recruit the maximum number of available muscle fibres and impart some enormous force.

A lot of people think strength training is bad primarily because beginners substitute their lack of skill by using their strength.The thinking should be when you strength train is to apply power when you're skill puts you in a position to hit.So utilised WITHIN (sorry for the capitals but this is where it went wrong a few months back) a technique.

I've heard a lot of "strength training makes you stiff" or "you dont want to be built like Arnie" people also confuse body building with strength training.

HIT is considered a prehistoric approach by some and has been blamed (according to a friend of mine) on a number of NFL players who are slow,injured and unable to generate power.

You have/will no doubt here quotes such as:"power in wing chun comes from the floor alignment of wrist,elbow,hip knee etc." My question what aligns these? answer muscles,tendons attached to bones.So if you strengthen these you will have a stronger structure.You mention Squats,deadlifts etc also things like cleans,snatches will help improve explosive ability,faster movement.

Wing Chun is a core based system so to me you need to look to core based exercises.Research westside barbell club.They use russian conjugate method of periodisation.Also if you're doing ****e loads of isolation work you can cut this down.Training upper/lower body on different days be it for max strength or speed strength works your body big time low reps high volume being the order of the day.Also you're NOT training to go ten rounds in a street fight so anaerobic exercises are the order of the day.You can of course grease the groove with aerobic exercises as and when you feel the need to.

Hope this helps there is some good reading material to check out:

The science and practice of strength training - Vladimir Zatsiorsky

Fit to fight - Peter Consterdine

The science of martial arts training - Charles Staley

And so it go's on.Also worth looking into physiology,anatomy etc.

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by Ernie
off all real heavy stuff just work off hammer now ,
not enough time to maintain a big body [ around 200] takes to much recovery time

sitting around [ 180 ] now , this is easy to keep lean and still have plenty of juice when needed :)


Hey Buddy,

Dont go getting old on me now.

Next you'll be getting into Golf mate.

BTW,that wisecrack on the welcome thread about the haemoroids busted me man :D :D :D :D

[sihing]

I lift 3X a week just due to the fact that I really dislike the weight lifting part, lol. I do it mostly for the fact that I hated being skinny, but I'm sure there are side benefits to the WC. Although I didn't start to get serious and consistent about it until I got my level 10 which is the complete system, so I had the WC in my system before I started to lift allot. The extra size hasn't affected the speed one bit, but has helped overall I would say. I've probably gained 20+lbs since 96' when I started, 6' 1"ish & 180lbs or so now, depending on how well I have eaten that day, lol.

Right now I'm just doing one excersice for each body part, all in one session. For chest and back I do 4 sets as these are my hard to build areas, for everything else I do 3 sets. Also I do a fast movement to raise the weight and slow movement to come back, you get a good burn with this and really feel it in the muscles.

Lately I've been starting at high reps 16 to 18 for the first sets and then lower it down 2 reps for each following set. Once in a while I will mix it up and go heavy, but I am not built to be strong,
I can only bench max. for 1 maybe 250lbs with a spot. For some reason I'm much stronger on the decline bench using the hammer machines. I got my mom's bones, small wrists and hands, not thick boned at all.

I also like to incorporate allot of forearm work as I like that look when half sleeves are worn, lol, but as Bruce said they are good for bridging in the WC also.

Just my 2 cents...I'm no expert on this subject for sure.

James

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Kevin Bell
Hey Buddy,

Dont go getting old on me now.

Next you'll be getting into Golf mate.

BTW,that wisecrack on the welcome thread about the haemoroids busted me man :D :D :D :D
didn't you know Kev wing chun makes you lazy soon i will grow a pot belly use it to help me ground call it chi and go over to the *DARKSIDE*

but really only have like 4 hours to work out in a week now my privates,coaching at Gary's and doing Bat jaam do with Gary is eating up my week

i'll be done with the blades soon and will have another day a week to get my lift on

but it's nice being this light man i just keep getting faster
:D

[amjg2000]

specific exercises to Wing Chun?? i.e using strength WITHIN a technique not as the technique itself.Lets assume you are.

Let's see, i lift weights to maintain a strong muscular system. To have "padding" to take a hit. I mean, you do get hit right? Ever been hit by a 250+ pound Samoan? Um, it hurts. I lift weights to improve my physical strenght. Doesn't mean that i purely rely on it. But its nice to know its there to use when you need to.


First of all we know that to move within everyday life we need to utilise muscles.Its no different with Wing Chun.If you train correctly you can recruit the maximum number of available muscle fibres and impart some enormous force.

I don't doubt that. But it all depends on your training goals. I wanna be well rounded, improve all aspects of my game. See my response above. I don't think you train much in the way of fast twitch muscle fibers by just training wing chun. I know from chi sao the slow twitch fibers are being trained.


I've heard a lot of "strength training makes you stiff" or "you dont want to be built like Arnie" people also confuse body building with strength training.

Strenght training without flexibility training makes you stiff :D Every see the he-man looking fools in the gym, who can't turn their neck more then 45degrees? YOu can be built like Arnold and still be flexible with quickness, it all in how well rounded you train. If you lift, stretch, work on your reflexes, you'll be game. I don't lift to look good, i lift to be strong. If i have a six pack and can get *****es wit it, then hey i consider it a perk..;)


HIT is considered a prehistoric approach by some and has been blamed (according to a friend of mine) on a number of NFL players who are slow,injured and unable to generate power.

First off, HIT is a very safe training method. Slow repetitions, minimal sets. Overall, the premus (sp) behind it is that you its bout intensity, not quantity. Its about training smart, using exercises that recruit the most muscle fibers. We aren't talking tripce extensions and bicep curls. We aren't talking a 2hr workout two days on, one day off..blah..blah.blah..I get in..do my 30mins of intense lifting, and i am done. How many people you see in the gym doing big exercises, not many... Not at all like poly training or doing a supersets or any of that stuff. HIT may work for you, or it may not. It works for me.


Wing Chun is a core based system so to me you need to look to core based exercises.Research westside barbell club.They use russian conjugate method of periodisation.Also if you're doing ****e loads of isolation work you can cut this down.Training upper/lower body on different days be it for max strength or speed strength works your body big time low reps high volume being the order of the day.Also you're NOT training to go ten rounds in a street fight so anaerobic exercises are the order of the day.You can of course grease the groove with aerobic exercises as and when you feel the need to.

Yes, you should be doing periodization regardless of what manner or program you train in. You cycle on..cycle off. Its the only way to improve your strenght gains after a certain point. When you lift for a long time, you reach a point of diminishing returns, with HIT, I increase weight with small increments, say 1.5 to 2lbs every other workout. AFter a 2month cycle. I drop the weights 30%, increase the reps. I do this for a 6 week cycle. Then back to heavy weights. Usually i find that I've increased by poundages by 20% or more. You are right, no need to do isolation exercises, your biceps will get big from doing chins. Your brachiallius will get big from doing chin ups. Your triceps will get big from doing military presses wit a olympic bar standing..you get the point.

Also i don't do snatches and clean and jerks for explosive power. I simply don't believe in explosive weight lifting, causes more injuries then normal. (your friend's scenario that he cited to u)

Take care.

[amjg2000]

sihing, seems like you are built like me, but just taller...God **** asian jeans, err, genes. :D

Most of the time people don't gain cuz they overtrain. too many sets, too long duration. YOu'll be amazed few sets it takes to get your muscles to grow. You seem to be small boned like me, we typically respond well to multijoint, compound exercises. Trust me, i did the whole Tony Atlas/Joe Weider bible crap workouts for years, 3x a week back and chest one day, legs another, arms one day. I got stronger, lil by little, but i was compromising my gains due to overtraining. Didn't gain any weight, i was like 135lbs back then

http://www.hyperreal.org

With HIT, in 16months i put on about 50lbs of muscle. But i had to eat right (6meals a day.chicken breast, rice, and broccoli). I probably spent about 4x less time in the gym too. Anyhow, it works but it isn't exactly mainstream thinking.

[amjg2000]

Oops, i mean http://www.cyberpump.com

Good HIT site. A famous hitter is old man Clarence Bass.

[Vajramusti]

Misquoting Oscar Wide--
Ever so often I get the urge to lift weights, but I get up and the urge passes.

butwing chun- I never miss doing it. It's Ng Mui's spell.

[Kevin Bell]

Man if HIT works for you then fine bro you stick to it.I wasnt alluding to training slow twitch in Chi Sau i was referring to training/recruiting fast twitch in conjugate maybe i wasnt clear.If strength aint your goal man then stick to what you do.If your training to induce sacroplasmic hypertrophy you will of course achieve gains in size though optimal gains in strength??I dont think so.

To contract the fastest motor units -move faster and develop power (should you want to) you need to strength training this is not to say hypertrophy doesnt have a part to play in a fully periodised plan.

Sprinters,gymnasts all incorperate strength training into their training programmes.You move you use muscle,you wanna move faster you need greater tension (muscle force not stiffness)strength/power training increases your ability to do this by improving the CNS ability to recruit max number of muscle fibres at a given time

You asked a question i gave you a point of view.If you're happy with what you do then dude you do it.It always pays to keep an open mind so if you can show me scientific proof that i do something wrong feel free to tell me.I'll go through you're last post tomorrow properly (Time here 1 oclock in the morning) got to hit the sack got a twelve mile bike ride to work 7 in the morning (yikes).

Gonna have to check that previous post on weight lifting as advised by Yong Chun this forums huge must of missed that one.


Ernie: Chi??? Dont even go there bro
:D :D :D :D

[AndrewS]

WESTSIDE!!!

And oly lifts.

And overhead work.

And chains.

And my sled.

And my sledgehammer.

Back in the game, baby!

Andrew

[Kevin Bell]

Just checked the previous thread as referred to by Yong Chun and it seems this is just a rerun.

Andrew: Respect,enough said!

[Kevin Bell]

Kung Fu Magazine Forums > Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum > Wing Chun > How Do You Train?


Dont know if i pasted this over correctley but this is even more of a rerun with more or less the same points of view as now..

Andrew:Stirling work!

amjg2000:Go Check.

[Kevin Bell]

Amjg2000:Cool. I just lift to maintain size (small dude about 165lbs now, useta be 180lbs when i started wing chun). But i am still building strengh. But for my lil 5 foot 8 ass, its plenty of weight.

I am a hardgainer (classic ectomorph) so I can't really lift too much. I found that 2 sets of each exercise, one low rep set and one high rep set, works best for me.



Kevin:You're still building strength?Not at an optimal rate youre not.Thats STRENGTH we'rer talking about here not size.


Amjg: Let's see, i lift weights to maintain a strong muscular system. To have "padding" to take a hit. I mean, you do get hit right? Ever been hit by a 250+ pound Samoan? Um, it hurts. I lift weights to improve my physical strenght. Doesn't mean that i purely rely on it. But its nice to know its there to use when you need to.


Kevin:First off i accept due to the close quarter nature of Wing Chun i'm going to get hit.I accept it regardless of assailents size.Do i get hit??I boxed for eight years i've been hit dont worry about that.

:
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I've heard a lot of "strength training makes you stiff" or "you dont want to be built like Arnie" people also confuse body building with strength training.
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Amjg:Strenght training without flexibility training makes you stiff Every see the he-man looking fools in the gym, who can't turn their neck more then 45degrees? YOu can be built like Arnold and still be flexible with quickness, it all in how well rounded you train. If you lift, stretch, work on your reflexes, you'll be game. I don't lift to look good, i lift to be strong. If i have a six pack and can get *****es wit it, then hey i consider it a perk..


Kevin:I was paraphrasing common misconceptions people have about strength training those are not my thoughts.I advise you to read the post more carefully.


amjg:Also i don't do snatches and clean and jerks for explosive power. I simply don't believe in explosive weight lifting, causes more injuries then normal. (your friend's scenario that he cited to u)


Kevin:My friend allude to NFL guys who utilise HIT and its relation to injuries etc again read the post more carefully.Also," weight lifting (explosive) causes more injuries than normal"????.Please provide me with evidence that prooves your claim.I was involved in an accident when in my early twenties damaging vertabrae and blowing a disc in my back when i was run over by a car whilst out cycling my bicycle.Do i feel any adverse affects due to strength training knowing i have back problems?? NO!


If im doing anything wrong as i said please tell me and substantiate your explanation with references from scientific research.In my opinion if your happy doing what your doing then fine you do it bro.My thinking was optimising your approach for Wing Chun you know its always worth your time checking out the recommended reading references i supplied.

This debate has now run its course and been done to death on the link to the post i put up.

Please read the posts more carefully in future before misquoting yourself.I respect you AMJG as a human being and im sure youre a nice guy and entitled to your views.i dont want you to agree with what i say just because i say so,look to research look past what i say mate!

[AndrewS]

Kevin- thanks. We 've gotta hook up some time. I've been planning to roll through the UK as some point. . .

On the explosive thing (as I just did 2 hrs of snatch drops and split jerks)-

train explosively like an idiot and you'll get hurt. Train explosively right, and you'll be fine.

By all reports the lowest rate of injury at the US olympic training center in the lifters- the most explosive athletes. Another data point- degenerative joint disease increases in prevalence from ankle to hip. One oft-theorized reason for this is that the ankle sees more ballistic forces than the hip, and that said forces are a stimulus for connective tissue production.

Later,

Andrew

[Kevin Bell]

Hey Andrew,

If you swing via the UK let me know buddy and i'll do my best to hook up.

Also if you ever come across any interesting reads/articles etc feel free to let me know im always receptive to that kind of thing

Best wishes for now Buddy.



Amjg: Let's see, i lift weights to maintain a strong muscular system. To have "padding" to take a hit. I mean, you do get hit right? Ever been hit by a 250+ pound Samoan? Um, it hurts. I lift weights to improve my physical strenght. Doesn't mean that i purely rely on it. But its nice to know its there to use when you need to.


Kevin:Not quite but last year at the local military port in my village i ended up partaking in a charity Rugby match.We have a load of guys staioned here on exchange from FIGI.To say they were massive would be an understatement!I got bulldozered into the dirt time and again.I woke up the next morning and man did i ever need an ice bath!!!!!Those boys know how to hit!!!!!

[Neo]

Currently do some of the Gracie routines in the Superfit book of his: plyometrics, isolaterals and power movements. pain in the a*** though as I don't have loads of weights in my garage, and as the wife goes to the gym, I get to work out in the garage! Although they get slated for being less productive than free weights, I'm getting a multi station off my brother in a week or so, along with a decent rower and bike all for £200. although free weights rule, time is quite restrictive and the multi gym will have more weight on it which has also been a limiting factor.

The other problem I find is that I get bored easily, which doesn't help when you have to keep changing collars on a single bar bell while doing supersets. And with time being such a limit, will hope that the multi gym will provide some time savings. Justy wish I could be the one going to the gym instead of the wife, went on a free weekend and was in heaven....indoor running and sprint tracks, free weight area with preloaded barbells and dumbells, smith machine for explosive training. :( Sigh..

Anyway, I do feel that the weights improves my training, and its balls about training the biceps will restrict punching. That's just people not knowing how to punch properly. You need the correct balance in your muscle relationships, with correct compund exercises for both pulling and pushing.

[Kevin Bell]

Hello Alisdair.

You have my sympathies with the gym situation!

Man,that makes me laugh when i hear the "dont train the bicep" quotes. A strong bicep helps prevent hyperextension of the elbow and blowing it out the other side.These are one of the very few isolation execises i do.Though it has to be said i probably train enough with weighted chins,seated rows etc.

Best wishes
Kev

[Neo]

Especially when you see such quotes in books by supposedly learned masters, for example Leung Ting's revised edition of Dynamic Wing Tsun, where he quotes that you should not train the biceps. What message does that spread to so many people? And don't get me on the idiotic sweat suit training in the book...

and yes, me too, I still stick in a bicep curl or hammer curl in the training, even with the other compounds you mentioned.

[Kevin Bell]

Hey Alisdair,

I come up with a couple of solutions to you're predicament.

Idea 1: Tell your wife you finish work an hour and a half before you actually do.Dive in the gym on the way home.

Idea 2:Get yourself a good boss at work.When i went for my interview to speak about terms/conditons etc i insisted on a Jong on the wall,swiss ball and loads of free weights to decorate the place.

Idea 3: In you're garage install a bench,a pull up bar (increase the difficulty by sticking a weight between youre knees),and get a good welder to build you a squat rack,and lastly clear a space to do some modified OL's and DL's..

[Neo]

Cheers Kev

Idea 1: I don't have day job, unless you count looking after three kids as a day job!

Idea 2: Got what you mentioned anyway, along with a few other bits, but the free weights answer is being resolved next year! As for your boss, amazing...

Idea 3: have a crappy bench but it makes do, squat bar is being sorted (see below), have two chin up bars, one in garage gym and one in house (must do more!)

Wife astounded me on Sunday by saying that she is considering dropping the gym membership when it expires, so that we can get more equipment at home, although I think she wants a treadmill ("what's wrong with running around the block woman?"). My requests will be decent bench with squat rack, more free weights and medicine balls, and jigsaw matting for grappling training at home, instead of just at one of the locations I teach at currently.

[Toby]

Neo, here's (http://www.bodysolid.com/BSStrength/FreeweightSystems/WPR78/WPR78.html) what I've got. Highly recommended. I didn't get the optional lat attachment, and unfortunately it didn't come with the model.

[Neo]

Phew, gonna cost a packet that one Toby! And you still have to buy the plates as well. Looks good though, wonder if they distribute in the UK, guess I'll be getting something similar albeit alot cheaper!

[Kevin Bell]

If your stuck for equipment Pavel Tsatsouline has some good routines with Just Kettlebells and body weight drills such as one handed press ups and one legged squats etc (Not that i have achieved this of course-yet)

Reference reading material:The Naked Warrior

[Toby]

Neo, I got it from a local fitness shop here in Oz, so I'm pretty sure it'll be in the U.K. I got a bunch of stuff incl. a bench from the same company, a bar, a weights tree and 400lb of weights. I do bench, squat, deadlift and weighted pullups on it. I used to attend a gym and this only cost about 3-4 years of gym membership. My gym was the university gym and the cheapest in town. Compared to a regular priced gym it would be less than 2 yrs membership. I've had it for almost 18mths, so not long and I'll be saving money. At the time I rang around and priced up comparable packages from several stores. Most cost similar for their budget range, which is what that rack is.