Question

[norther practitioner]

After all that ruckus the last few weeks, I have a quick question...

When was the last time someone on here actually said that my shiz is too deadly for the ring, or that ring is unrealistic? Or do I just skip those posts now.

[tug]

Skip 'em. Can't stand them.

[red5angel]

I haven't heard either, really in quite some time. From time to time, during a discussion something skirting either issue might come up but really, I haven't seen a whole lot of it for about a year now.
but like masterkiller having sex with his dad, I could be just blacking it all out so I don't remember.

[SevenStar]

people say it all the time, but mainly on the mantis and wc forums.
not that they are too deadly for the ring, but that ring training is unrealistic. Also, they say it on other forums. I also post on karateforums and there have been several discussions about it.

[LiLoong]

Do they actually say it's "too deadly"?

Or do they say it's hard to use?

[red5angel]

usually it's "we don't train for sport so if we were to eneter a sport type arena we couldn't use all our skils cause they are too deadly for the ring, meaning they would kill or maim, or somehting like that.

[LiLoong]

Originally posted by red5angel
usually it's "we don't train for sport so if we were to eneter a sport type arena we couldn't use all our skils cause they are too deadly for the ring, meaning they would kill or maim, or somehting like that.

That sounds bogus.

There is so much junk out there......

watch this.....

http://164.58.65.137/wushu/internal/bakmei/part1.mpg

http://164.58.65.137/wushu/internal/bakmei/part2.mpg

http://164.58.65.137/wushu/internal/bakmei/part3.mpg

etc.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by LiLoong
That sounds bogus.

There is so much junk out there......

watch this.....

http://164.58.65.137/wushu/internal/bakmei/part1.mpg

http://164.58.65.137/wushu/internal/bakmei/part2.mpg

http://164.58.65.137/wushu/internal/bakmei/part3.mpg

etc.

Sad thing is, I have heard that sifu is actually fairly good, so I don't understand why they do demos that make themselves look silly.

[norther practitioner]

He's not exactly defending against a jab in those vids....


but mainly on the mantis and wc forums.

Probably why I don't see it too much..

I just thought it was one of those things that is finally getting accepted 'round here.

[David Jamieson]

come to think of it, outside of some inexperienced hk movie fan posting here and there in anonymity, the only time i ever here the line "my style is too deadly for the ring" is when it is coming as an example from a detractor of traditional martial arts. For instance, wrestler or mma enthusiast will come on here and say things like:

Most Kungfu people say their style is too deadly for that ring and I think that is bogus.

or they'll say something like:

wushu will do you no good in a street fight, only reality fighting training is the way to protect yourself in a street encounter (I have yet to figure out how 2 year mma enthusiasts figure they are the experts on street fighting, but hey, if it floats their boat.

or (and I enjoy this one because it is a complete BS spin and is completely fabricated in the minds that repeat it over and over again like a mantra for the mentally retarded.)

there is no aliveness in traditional training

anyway, I'm gonna come out and say it:

A) performance wu shu is athleticism. It is an expression of martial art. The ring fighting portion of Chinese performance wu shu is the absorbed sport of Chinese kick boxing or as it is more widely known "San Shou". Some more recent san shou players hate the connection to wushu and further attempt to distance themselve from it by making up these memes. the sport of San shou was really in modern terms born out of Contemporary wu shu, otherwise it is and always has been a part and parcel aspect of traditional kungfu training.

b) TO criticize these things in such a manner is akin to saying, yeah that Van Gogh can paint, but can he shoot someone from a duckblind at 500m? You see how that is nonsense? But that is generally the logic used by those who are unwilling to explore traditional martial arts.

Most people with a huge beef against traditional martial arts are more against it because oif the cultural aspects of familial hierarchy, the kowtowing, the fact that they gotta empty their cup if they wanna get the teachings. This is to be expected in the take a pill mentality that is rampant in the west. No one has patience to actually delve into the depths of Kungfu practice from this set of thinkers.

Some people have a legitimate beef with the charlatans and bogus presenters of asian martial arts. I don't have a problem with that, but when the charlatans are held up as the greater portion of tma-ists, well that is stretching it. You may well know that there are a great deal of bogus "realists" out there as well. Or even better is guys who have little fight clubs and they think that theirs is the only way because they really hit each other once or twice a week for a few months til they get tired of being sore all the time and then what have they learned? They have learned that when you get hit in the face, it hurts, especially the first 50 times or so. :p

anyway, don't look down on anything with first giving it an unbiased look. All too often people are too prepared to make sweeping statements born out of their own ignorance. Some seek to validate their own thoughts by banding together with the like minded, and others....well, they are mostly ill informed.

cheers

[red5angel]

NP, I think it's getting more accepted then it used to be. We had a flood of guys from MMA or switching over to MMA about a year and a half ago or so, and that's when those conversations were un full force. Now I think people have either given up out of boredom, irritation or gone over to the dark side.

[red5angel]

personally, I think athleticism can be good enough to win a street fight. Being fit and in shape certainly goes a long way on the street. Part of the problem is when we're all talking abotu learning to fight here we often forget goals if the individual and keeping things in perspective.
Someone who trains everyday, 4 hours a day or more, and fights all the time, is going to be at the top of his game, no doubt about it.
Someone who trains a couple of hours every otherday, is going to be towards the top, but not at the top.
Someone who trains a few hours a week, is somewhere in the middle.
Someone who is in great shape is lower middle
Someone who doesn't train but fights alot on the street is somewhere around the same place.
Everyone else is at the bottom.

To me this is a pyramid hierarchy. The masses, the people most likely to be run into in a street confrontation are mostly likely in the bottom half of the pyramid and so someone who is in great shape, stands a little more, in my opinion, then a 50% chance. Someone who trains in the martial arts and is in good shapes stands a better chance, and so on.

The chances of having to fight someone at the top of that pyramid are slim, unless you go looking for it.

[IronFist]

I think I've heard people say (type) that Wing Chun people lose in UFC because they don't allow eye gouges.

[Waxwood rod]

Ring sports have restrictions and by design one must win in particular manners. Once there are rules everything changes. You must know the rules and train what is allowed. In the street you have to be ready for anything, and you're better off escaping if the chance arises. If people want to train for the ring that's fine, but it won't make you invincible to possible street encounters and may even give you false security.

[red5angel]

but it won't make you invincible to possible street encounters and may even give you false security.

Tha really depends....some serious sports fighters wouldn't have any problems facing off with your average street fighting idiot.

[Waxwood rod]

It really does depend on a lot of factors, however your average martial artist who has a few ring fights is not always in the same class as the serious sport fighters,who are a minority, and the majority only being hobbyists and amateur ring fighters. I'm sure most ring fighters have street techniques as well and so on but don't let your training go to your head, anything can happen outside of a ring.

[red5angel]

I think ultimately, most "ring fighters" techniques will work on the street. Think about it, some basic punches, kicks, knees, and takedowns, along with possibly some ground techniques. What else do you need?

[Waxwood rod]

If you are going to commit yourself to fighting in an encounter, having the motive to win and possibly kill will help with your basic tools. Aside from that I would say all you need is luck that you are not outnumbered and no one has a weapon.

[red5angel]

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that training to hurt or maim someone directly is a bad idea. I have always said I would go as far as I felt I had to to save my life or the lives of my loved ones. All I 'm saying is that ring fighters have everything they need to survive most open hand and possibly even some weapon encounters.
Luck is what it takes, but we train to put luck on our side.

[Knifefighter]

If you are talking no weapons, the average ring fighter who has standup, clinching, and ground skills will do much better than the person who has never been in the ring.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
Ring sports have restrictions and by design one must win in particular manners. Once there are rules everything changes.

incorrect. Not everything changes. I still have an opponent. I still need to beat him as quickly as possible. I still need to use my tools to do so. The basic premise is the same. On the same token, the same things change once you step outside your kwoon.


You must know the rules and train what is allowed. In the street you have to be ready for anything, and you're better off escaping if the chance arises.

I fail to see the issue here. will my hook punch be less effective merely because I am on the street? Will my knees be less painful because I'm not throwing them on canvas? Do you think that that changes, outside of a ring?

I do agree that escape is the best option though.


If people want to train for the ring that's fine, but it won't make you invincible to possible street encounters and may even give you false security.

a false sense of security as compared to whom? Is your sense of security any more real than mine? unless you are doing those techniques not allowed in the ring under pressure, against resistance and with real contact, you are no better off than I am...

Actually, I think some sport fighters may have a more real sense of security, as there are some "traditional" schools that don't spar at all. Competing on a regular basis shows you that you can and will get beat...that in itself will remove the feeling of invincibility you mentioned.

[red5angel]

Actually, I think some sport fighters may have a more real sense of security

I agree with most of what 7* is saying, however that quote is key. Guys who are fighting regularly, and going hard, are going to have more actual warranted confidence then those that don't because they're going to understand what it is that happens when two people clash with physical violence. There is less doubt in their minds.

It's sort of like soldiers. Until soldiers see actual combat, you don't know how they are going to react. You can train to be a soldier all you want and it might get you to a better point then some, but you won't truly comprehend what combat really is all about until your in the thick of it. That's why soldiers who experience combat have a higher survival rate then those that don't. They know what to expect and they know how to react effectively.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
It really does depend on a lot of factors, however your average martial artist who has a few ring fights is not always in the same class as the serious sport fighters,who are a minority, and the majority only being hobbyists and amateur ring fighters. I'm sure most ring fighters have street techniques as well and so on but don't let your training go to your head, anything can happen outside of a ring.

sticking with what you said, where does this put a martial artist who has had no ring fights?

[Waxwood rod]

What I meant by false sense of security was thinking you can handle a situation because you've had some ring time, when the situation is out of control, and instead of avoiding conflict you provoke the situation. As far as a martial artist who has had no ring time, its all based on the individual. Some have had countless street encounters, others none. I will say if you are consistently trying to beat someone in fighting, whatever the rules, then you may develop an advantage. Ring experience is good for the ring and under the right circumstances the street. Street experience is good for the street and possibly for the ring. THere is some cross over but they are not the same. If you are able to mortally wound your opponent before they do you, you will most likely win, you will never see that in the ring where there are rules which must be played by, and therefore decide the winner in a different fashoin and may require different attributes to win.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
What I meant by false sense of security was thinking you can handle a situation because you've had some ring time, when the situation is out of control, and instead of avoiding conflict you provoke the situation.

So how does that differ from a traditional guy?


Ring experience is good for the ring and under the right circumstances the street.

In your opinion, what are those circumstances?

Street experience is good for the street and possibly for the ring. THere is some cross over but they are not the same.

but can you get "street experience" in your kwoon?

If you are able to mortally wound your opponent before they do you, you will most likely win, you will never see that in the ring where there are rules which must be played by, and therefore decide the winner in a different fashoin and may require different attributes to win.

it still applies. If we are grappling and I break your limb or choke you unconscious, I win.

in thai boxing, if I break something of yours, like your ribs, or you are for some other reason unable to continue, I win.

[Shaolinlueb]

i learn thing things that are "too deadly" for the ring. because you can do serious damage.

sparring is kinda gay and i dont think its "real" fighting.
:D

[Waxwood rod]

Good points Shaolinlueb.

[SevenStar]

yes, very well said.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb

sparring is kinda gay and i dont think its "real" fighting.
:D
Man is this funny! But on an interseting level, because sparring isn't "real" fighting, it's practice with someone you know you can trust to let you tap out when you've reached your limit. There is no way in hell I would go full power with a sparring partner, nor would I grab a broken bottle. I meen, this person is suposed to be a friend, right?

Funny on the other hand because so many people use that as an excuse to avoid doing it... Kinda like trying to run the Iron Man cause you run and bike but never practice the swimming because you shower every day...:rolleyes: :p