Questions about Pak Sao's and Lop Sao's

[Magua]

I've only been in Wing Chun training for about a year so, needless to say, traping has a long way to go. However, I am starting to discover the ease and effectiveness of a solid pak sao or lop sao during spars. Right now I use the pak sao to enter and the lop sao during the rare occaisions that someone leaves a strike out there too long. My question is, what are some other basic and effective ways to incorporate these moves into a spar, and under what circumstances do you find that you obtain the best results when using these moves? (Whew.. :eek: .. that was long!)

"Boards don't hit back..."

[Shadowboxer]

Have you learned seung pak? or seung lop? You don't have to restrict lop to when your opponent leaves a "strike" out there too long. If you have made contact, let's say your right arm on theirs, you can do either. If you can't pak, perhaps because they are strong or giving a lot of forward energy, then immediately lop, and vice versa. Also, you can pak(l) da(r) and then immediately lop(r) da(l) - a 1,2 count from chain punching. If your (r) arm is blocked by their (l) arm -pak or fook, you can noi pak(l) da(r) or lop(l) fak(r). Does this make sense?
Oh yeah, throw some tie gerks in on your lop das for more fun.

[Magua]

thanks alot! those are definately some things to try! By the way, have you ever tried to "monkey in a jar" someone? My sifu did that to me and I was amazed!

"Boards don't hit back..."

[wingchunalex]

here are 2 basic ways to attact and to follow though. (sorry if i repeat what the guy before said, i couldn't follow his techniques cause i didn't know wich arm was his lead arm). you and your opponent start in your right hand (or left if you are both left handed)lead fighting stance (bai jong) with your hands touching on the outside. you pak their lead hand with your rear hand (l) and da with your lead (r). they will pak your da with their rear hand. you lop thier pak with hand you pak'ed with (l). cross their arms and da with your lead hand (r). for lop da. when your hands are touching on the outside (back of hand to back of hand), lop thier lead hand and da. they will wu sau with there rear hand, then you lop their wu hand with your da hand, cross there arms and da with lead hand (r). you can also start these attacks when your hands aren't touching, you just have to move in with the pak or the lop. also a word on trapping. trapping isn't grabbing and crossing their arms. trapping is when you make the situation worse and worse for your opponent untill they feel trapped, not that you are acctually grabbing their hands. the lop-ing is imprortant, but the deception and setting them up is the real meaning of trapping, so they are actually trapped.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[whippinghand]

Don't waste your time trying to execute a trap. Just punch and kick. It's sparring.

[Magua]

A waste of time to practice paks and lops during a spar? There is just no way to be effective at those techniques in a real fight by confining your practice of traps to a wing chun dummy! The purpose of practicing on a dummy is to open your mind to all of the trapping posibilities and to record these possibilities to muscle memory so that you don't have to think when you execute them. Furthermore, slapping at a wooden arm is much different than trying to lop a straight punch comming at your face or a backfist aimed at your temple! Is anyone with me on this one?!?!?!

"Boards don't hit back..."

[old jong]

I really don't like the word "trapping" because it involves some kind of concept alien to Wing Chun!...You can deflect a punch or attack but why "trap" it? It you concentrate on "trapping",you are chasing the hands instead of "head hunting" as you should!...W.H. is right in his short comment.Think attack and the defense will be there.
BTW, "Trapping is really a JKD thing and should remains there.I have nothing about JKD but let's not mix apples with oranges! ;)

[Shadowboxer]

Never heard of "monkey in a jar". What is it? IMHO, sparring is the perfect place to use phon sao. I know I can chain punch and throw kicks in. What I need to work on is how to respond when my punches are blocked-ie,phon sao. When we do triangles in class, 2 against 1,one person with a rubber knife, I think I chain punch too much and don't get to finishing techniques from phon sao. But I'm looking for exchange of technique that flows.

[wingchunalex]

"trapping" is when you get the opponent in worse and worse situations until they feel or are trapped by their own resoponeses, not grabbing and punching and pulling etc. here is and example. i lop my opponents lead hand with my lead hand and i da with my rear. my opponent wu sau's my punch. then i lop his wu sau and punch low. so you see, its not that i trap his hand, i just used his recations against him untill he felt trapped. the situation got worse for him when i first attacked, then he thought he had the upper hand cause he blocked me, but then the situation got even worse for him since he did block and i loped his block and punched low. this is about the simplest expaination i can give. JKD's trapping came from wing chun, trapping is a extremely important aspect of wing chun. that is the major basis of chi sau. the four basic switches for chi sau are traps. trapping is the way you set your opponent up in sparring. its the surest way to get the upper hand. if i go gainst a guy that has a longer reach than me and i don't trap he obvously has the upper hand. believe me, its true, i have boxed. so trapping can level the playing field, or give you a great advantage.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[dzu]

If you spar, focus on timing and positioning. Trying to consciously trap will get you hit. The goal of WC is NOT to trap the hands but to disrupt the body and mind.

Dzu

[wingchunalex]

timing and positioning are part of the puzzle, but what if you are blocked. do you just stop and start over with another technique, why not take advantage of their response and set them up. if you aren't deceptive in your attact its like throwing darts in the dark.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[dzu]

I said you don't want to consciously trap.
I also said that trapping the hands is not the goal of WC.

If they block your attack then your timing and positioning were not good enough at that instant. If you try to hit them but anticipate them blocking it, you're using the wrong intention to attack. If you have to think about what to do when they block, you need to chi sau more and learn how to attack and disrupt the body from any point of contact. Fixation on TRAPPING is a different kind of trap all in itself.

Dzu

[Magua]

My paradox is that, as having only trained for a year, I can unconsciously execute only basic boxing and kicking techniques. So how is my trapping supposed to attain the reflexive level unless I consciously try to integrate the techniques into my spars, Dzu?

"Boards don't hit back..."

[whippinghand]

stop sparring, then you'll understand how to integrate them.

[dzu]

Train more, have patience, and learn to feel openings and balance during chi sau. Kung Fu/Gun Fu is translated as skill gained through hard work. It doesn't happen over night.

Keep working on your basics because high skill is the application of basics with the proper timing, positioning, and intention.

There is a common saying in Chinese MA: "Invest in loss." Learn from your mistakes and you'll know when you try to apply your WC whether you need to work on it some more or not. Your Sifu is a guide, but he can't prove the system to you. Only you can do that.

Dzu

[wingchunalex]

focus on your basics now. i always tell everyone to focus on their footwork, especailly beginners. it is the key to your defence. its just a thought. trapping will come in time. another word on trapping. in trapping you don't think about what trap you are doing you just do it, it comes naturaly.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu