Po Pai Hands

[Mojo]

Do any of your instructors, besides Gary Lam and his students, teach Po Pai, the butterfly hands of Wing Chun?

The article that Mr. Leblanc wrote for IKF was the first time I'd ever heard of it. Great info in the article. Nice to see advanced wing chun in an article.

[YongChun]

I thought Po Pai was a common Wing Chun method. Wang Kiu called it holding a board based on the configuration of the hands used to perform the action. I saw a movie in the 80's where the main technique used was the Po Pai. In the 108 version of the Wang Kiu wooden dummy, section 7 is totally concerned with the Po Pai movement.

Ray

[Vajramusti]

Po Pai jeung is/should be part of any decent wing chun curriculum.

[Mojo]

Thanks guys.

I'm a hsing-i guy and saw alot of similarities to one of our tiger forms/techniques.

[ntc]

Po Pai is a fundamental structure-controlling routine in WC, and is often applied in contact Chi Sao. There is a section in the dummy form that trains the proper structure, angle, timing, and distance of the Po Pai Cheung. The wooden dummy, just in case you did not know, is a crucial part of the training of all WC practitioners.

[old jong]

Don't leave home without it! ;)

[Mojo]

Cool
I'm learning alot here.

Whats the defence for it ?

[old jong]

The defence?...
-Pak Fak
-Pak Gan
-Pak Biu
-Huen Jum
-Gan Jum
-Kwan Sau
-Biu Huen
-Jut Biu
-Jut Jut!...;)
-Gum Tan
-Gum Pak
-You get the idea?(many more) ;)
-All of these preferably combined with a slight turn.(Chor Ma) Without forgetting that any of these motions can have any of the two hands transformed into a punch or chop.

[ntc]

There are really no specific, special, or formulated solutions catered specifically for the Po Pai Cheung. Recall that Chi Sao will help an individual develop the ability to sense, via the arms in contact, the flow of energy, potential structural weaknesses in the opponent, etc. which would then result in the appropriate reactive response from you. The individual would then be able to move accordingly (body and horse as needed) to counter the situation, and this should come naturally from the individual. The same would apply in the Po Pai Cheung case. However, you will likely see applications of two-handed techniques (kwun sao, kan sao, for instance) used to try to neutralize or counter-control the opponent coming in with Po Pai Cheung.

[Ernie]

Mojo
We just shot a new DVD on Gary's Level 2 training methods
all based on control and feeling
we go through a full break down on how we train po pai

we have a full power freestyle chi sau type method of training
were we go all out but only use variations of po pai

we get in the middle of a padded cell [ a mattress on each side ]
and blast each other

vary ballistic but since there is not hitting just feeling angles timing and getting the right position at the right time under full pressure

it's pretty safe

unless you apply send in energy po pai with shock power
in this drill we only apply send out energy , just blow him out of position

it's all in the training methods man =)

Their are a few more advanced level were you learn to absorb and take his power and cut his timing

in the beginning you just let him send you this is one side feeds
then you cut his timing half as he is in mid action -- this is were the competition begins you learn to change very quickly and secure position and send out power by way of feeling

then as you get good you work of the end timing and you absorb borrow and turn the energy back

finally you flow with and mold

the last 2 are not shown on the DVD


hope that helps :D

[Mojo]

Ernie
Thanks that does help.
This dvd can be ordered through you ?
I'd like to get one.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie

unless you apply send in energy po pai with shock power
in this drill we only apply send out energy , just blow him out of position



interesting.

and how is one generating the shock power?

[Mojo]

Old Jong

Thansk, I think. I get your idea. too bad I don't know the meaning of those words;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
interesting.

and how is one generating the shock power?

meet me some time and i will be more then happy to show you :D

it's something i'm very good at ;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Mojo
Ernie
Thanks that does help.
This dvd can be ordered through you ?
I'd like to get one.

no not me all of Gary's stuff can be found at http://www.cranesproduction.com/

there is one called called Devestating po pai hands or secret po pai something real corny like that

it shows all 8 of the po pai hands and 2 set up hands so 10 in total
but it doesn't have the drills , Gary kept the drills in house
until now and the new DVD won't be released for a few months

since he just released 3 others

way to much saturation :D

to many shame less plugs ha ha

man we spend alot of time developing Po Pai if you have any questions email me
don't want to bore people with the stuff

[PaulH]

Ernie's po pai shock is very vicious! It will make your face green instantly! Speaking from the voice of experience. =D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
meet me some time and i will be more then happy to show you :D

it's something i'm very good at ;)

I sure believe you.

However,
I am an engineer. I love to hear your process of generation to see what it is before I trust you. Sorry for my carreer bias. :D

Brute force muscular generated shock is a shock.
Using a heavy body to bang also is a shock
Since 20kv stunt gun is also deliver Shock:D


But it that the Keng Geng? I think the 20kv stunt gun is a better keng. LOL

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
Ernie's po pai shock is very vicious! It will make your face green instantly! Speaking from the voice of experience. =D


have you tried a 20KV stunt gun? that produce black face with only 3 dollars of Duracell 4x AA battery cell. :D:D:D:D

oh light weight too.


http://web.ivenue.com/alldefense2/item3201.ctlg

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
I sure believe you.

However,
I am an engineer. I love to hear your process before I trust you. Sorry for my carreer bias. :D

i understand hendrik , and it was not in the spirit of challenge , but i'm a hands on person , teach/express best by way of feel and experience

ther is many things that have to be lined up depending on the type of [ shock] you want to send

linkage , postion , timing , breathing , mind

all working together at the right moment , and sent in the right place , this is only a skill when it can be applied in motion when some one is resisiting

then the true essence of it's function will show

i don't think to much about it [ thinking creates resisitence and road blocks in the mind and body ]

i just do it ;)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie


ther is many things that have to be lined up depending on the type of [ shock] you want to send

linkage , postion , timing , breathing , mind

all working together at the right moment , and sent in the right place , this is only a skill when it can be applied in motion when some one is resisiting

then the true essence of it's function will show

i don't think to much about it [ thinking creates resisitence and road blocks in the mind and body ]

i just do it ;)


sounds great! Thanks!

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
have you tried a 20KV stunt gun? that produce black face with only 3 dollars of Duracell 4x AA battery cell. :D:D:D:D

oh light weight too.


it's really sad hendrik i often feel that since i am in shape and keep fit you think of my power as brute ,

i guess it makes it easier to right off my methods ha ha

but

ask any one that has trained with me i am soft and very relaxed
when i send out power there is no tension just pure clean release

this is the only way for it to be balanced and short and allow a person to continue to flow

when there is brute it's a different commitment both mental and physical

again you would have to feel to understand :cool:


ther are many people bigger and stronger then me at the school and much more outside that i train with

i would not survive if i tried to out force them:p

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
i am soft and very relaxed .


when i send out power there is no tension just pure clean release




Dont need to ask, I believe you.


Where is the power generated from?

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Dont need to ask, I believe you.


Where is the power generated from?

text book wing chun answer = the ground but directed by the mind ha ha ha

but there is much more to building the circuit then just those to elements we need the conductor [ body] and resistance [ target ]

and with in each of these individual elements there are more pieces


which can all be trained in PO PAI ;)

[yellowpikachu]

Good answer.


but Po Pai is White Crane Wing Chun related. So. hehehe. check out their 8/12 of an inch short power method invent 1640's. :D:D:D

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


Po Pai is something that interest me a lot. Why? You hear all sorts of stories from the old timers like Yuen Kay San using that skill to cause his opponent to drop and vomit etc.. Although it was called Wu Dip for YKS it is the same skill.

The thing that I find most interesting is that I have never met anyone who can use this action without it being a nothing more than a glorfied push. I almost believe its one of WCK's lost skills.

Big Ernie!

Be honest with me man! Does Gary's video demonstrate the type of Po Pai that will shock and drop the opponent or send him away?

If its shock I want to see it!

Let me know!

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Good answer.


but Po Pai is White Crane Wing Chun related. So. hehehe. check out their 8/12 of an inch short power method invent 1640's. :D:D:D


Cool I have an open mind
But what about the training method to make functional , not just singular power development in a static situation
And does it fit in with a wing Chun engine and platform as well as combat strategy ?

You see when reviewing a subject or investigating a method or power source , it must fit your chosen platform and combat strategy , many things work stand alone but do not at to the synergy of the whole ,

So if you could share the training methods that would be worth while information to see if it can add to whole or if it needs modification updating to be functional

You see I tend to look at the big picture when I evaluate information , but I do agree to give it a worth while shot you need to empty your prejudice cup and train it , too much back seat evaluations will make you miss many wonderful growth opportunities

[old jong]

Originally posted by Mojo
Old Jong

Thansk, I think. I get your idea. too bad I don't know the meaning of those words;)

Good! :cool:
I had the feeling you would understand what I really meant!...There are no This vs That techniques when you understand Wing Chun.You simply use what your position and your training allow's you to use.
I don't think what you do is different in that aspect.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello all,


Po Pai is something that interest me a lot. Why? You hear all sorts of stories from the old timers like Yuen Kay San using that skill to cause his opponent to drop and vomit etc.. Although it was called Wu Dip for YKS it is the same skill.

The thing that I find most interesting is that I have never met anyone who can use this action without it being a nothing more than a glorfied push. I almost believe its one of WCK's lost skills.

Big Ernie!

Be honest with me man! Does Gary's video demonstrate the type of Po Pai that will shock and drop the opponent or send him away?

If its shock I want to see it!

Let me know!

you know I don't play sifu is god or lineage hero worship

po pai done to damage consist of both powers

it has a 2 action/pulse in on motion energy

many people just get the surface push part

not the get in your gut make you want to lose your lunch part

yes Gary can do it and yes may of us can do it as well

it's in the training method ,

now that being said I have hit people just a little and have had them fold up and get sick
and I have hit people with intent and they just took it

the worse I have heard I am really just thinking the dude was a big wuss [ my training partner :p ]

is once when training it I hit him just right he went down was out for about 5 min.

that night he called me all scared said his heart was beating very sporadically

and has never let me live it down

Gary also warns us to not let the [ shock] aspect out on each other to much , not healthy

me I’m built solid and allot of stuff just doesn't fade me

but that make you sick shock stuff Gary does it with just about any part of his body

I can't do that , on that level I’m not mature enough in my skills , I like dropping people to much still =)

a lot of this power sending stuff probably worked real well on non muscular frail small village types back in the day but if your trying to hit a rock solid dude in motion that is conditioned for abuse probably not the wisest choice

just another tool bro

all in the training methods and functional development nothing special

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Ern,


Does Gary's video show shock?


Regards,

[Mojo]

Originally posted by old jong
I don't think what you do is different in that aspect.

Quite right.
Thanks again

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello Ern,


Does Gary's video show shock?


Regards,

i will have to see it after the edit he did talk about the way to use and develop it

but all i did with my partner is show the first two levels of our po pai training

more for short burst push and position

you have to get there before you can do anything

on the next to tiers of training it would stand out more but really shock is a feeling and anyone could fake it

just have to be on the end of it to keep things honest

and then even furthur so what if one guy can do it , is there a method that produces results for the majority

those are worth wild things :D

[Jim Roselando]

E,


i will have to see it after the edit he did talk about the way to use and develop it

Ok! JR

but all i did with my partner is show the first two levels of our po pai training more for short burst push and position

Ok! JR

you have to get there before you can do anything

Understood! JR

on the next to tiers of training it would stand out more but really shock is a feeling and anyone could fake it just have to be on the end of it to keep things honest

Disagree! Why? You can tell by watching the guys body issuing the force. JR

and then even furthur so what if one guy can do it , is there a method that produces results for the majority

Understood! JR

those are worth wild things

Agreed! JR

[kj]

Originally posted by Mojo
Do any of your instructors, besides Gary Lam and his students, teach Po Pai, the butterfly hands of Wing Chun?

The article that Mr. Leblanc wrote for IKF was the first time I'd ever heard of it. Great info in the article. Nice to see advanced wing chun in an article.

Naturally. Gary Lam is not the only one practicing and passing along Wing Chun. :)


Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ernie]

Disagree! Why? You can tell by watching the guys body issuing the force. JR


Yes
you can see the mechanic and explsiviness of the motion
but the results that are felt you can't see

at least not trust unless you feel it yourself

blowing some on out of there shoes and socks is very visual

but dropping them were they stand is more of a feeling

any one can clutch there body and make a gas face and fall to the ground

i'm a you have to do it to me kind of guy
and i'm sure your the same way

i think i might have some clips of gary breaking it down , the difference between shock power and damage power

see if i can find them

do you have any of his stuff on video i might be ablet to point out sections were he is tapping into that stuff
:D

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
man we spend alot of time developing Po Pai if you have any questions email me
don't want to bore people with the stuff

To the contrary, it would be refreshing to see a greater percentage of discussion on Wing Chun. You wouldn't bore me. :)

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

Originally posted by kj
Naturally. Gary Lam is not the only one practicing and passing along Wing Chun. :)


Regards,
- Kathy Jo

yep
Gary didn't invent the stuff :D

i have felt this type of energy from a few and even more so non wing chun people

but Kathy

i do think Gary has taken the training methods for this skill development up to a quicker learning level by why of the training tools [ equipment ]

i have to give him credit for that ;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by kj
To the contrary, it would be refreshing to see a greater percentage of discussion on Wing Chun. You wouldn't bore me. :)

Regards,
- kj

Kathy
this stuff is a very deep well in my head and once i start i would be typing all day , add in all my spelling mistakes and you would go nuts :D

if i ever have the honor of meeting you all i know is open to you ,
i'm not the hold out type ,
but gary pounds this po pai stuff and all the parts that make it up and how to draw the line back to punching and position and timing

in our heads all the friggen time

i find it much more fun talking about head butting and kneeing some one in the nutts :D

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
Kathy
this stuff is a very deep well in my head and once i start i would be typing all day , add in all my spelling mistakes and you would go nuts :D


All the more reason to put it in writing, IMHO. You already type a lot, so you would likely just have to formulate more. ;) Should you change your mind at some point, you will find me among the very patient on spelling and grammar.



if i ever have the honor of meeting you all i know is open to you ,
i'm not the hold out type ,


I don't doubt that one iota, and still looking forward to the opportunity.


but gary pounds this po pai stuff and all the parts that make it up and how to draw the line back to punching and position and timing

in our heads all the friggen time


Sounds like I'll have to defer to video till we meet then.



i find it much more fun talking about head butting and kneeing some one in the nutts :D

Yes, that's easy to see. :D

Regards,
- kj

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
add in all my spelling mistakes and you would go nuts :D



I'll volunteer to check your spelling. I have a pretty good spelling checker that catches half the mistakes.

Ray

[PaulH]

I think pure shock would cause a blanking of the mind or awareness. So arguably it does not have to cause any bodily damage. Ever tripped on a banana split? Now if I'm awake how can one shock me?

P.S. How am I doing, Hendrik? =D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
I think pure shock would cause a blanking of the mind or awareness.

So arguably it does not have to cause any bodily damage. Ever tripped on a banana split? Now if I'm awake how can one shock me?

P.S. How am I doing, Hendrik? =D


Great!

But, I still believe in spider man's saying:

Great power comes with great responsibilities and some times one has to give up one's dream to do thing right. even if it means bring the knowlegde to grave. :D:D:D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
Cool I have an open mind
But what about the training method to make functional , not just singular power development in a static situation
And does it fit in with a wing Chun engine and platform as well as combat strategy ?

You see when reviewing a subject or investigating a method or power source , it must fit your chosen platform and combat strategy , many things work stand alone but do not at to the synergy of the whole ,

So if you could share the training methods that would be worth while information to see if it can add to whole or if it needs modification updating to be functional

You see I tend to look at the big picture when I evaluate information , but I do agree to give it a worth while shot you need to empty your prejudice cup and train it , too much back seat evaluations will make you miss many wonderful growth opportunities



White Crane of Fujian brought the art back from taiwan after Qing took over Taiwan around 1670..... it was tested in the battle field and the art continous to evolve until today...even Wing Chun... passing 300 of years. The latest benchmark is the decendent of it draw with Wang Xiang-Zai of Yee Chuan.....
and the saga continous.

I guess it must be usefull.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
White Crane of Fujian brought the art back from taiwan after Qing took over Taiwan around 1670..... it was tested in the battle field and the art continous to evolve until today...even Wing Chun... passing 300 of years. The latest benchmark is the decendent of it draw with Wang Xiang-Zai of Yee Chuan.....
and the saga continous.

I guess it must be usefull.

yea cool history lesson and all bro

what about training methods and if is can adapt to modern platform ?

[PaulH]

No, no... That's radical reactionary thinking! You know that deep down inside all men are spidermen. It's your duty to restore the delicate balance in our ailing WC web of life so that we can roam freely once more. Give us some sparks from the ambers of old to hold our short attention span at least just for another brief moment... =D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by PaulH
I think pure shock would cause a blanking of the mind or awareness. So arguably it does not have to cause any bodily damage. Ever tripped on a banana split? Now if I'm awake how can one shock me?

P.S. How am I doing, Hendrik? =D

paul you get an F-

in the lack of up front clairity

but A+ on the finding a long blown out way to state something meter :o

[Ernie]

Originally posted by PaulH
No, no... That's radical reactionary thinking! You know that deep down inside all men are spidermen. It's your duty to restore the delicate balance in our ailing WC web of life so that we can roam freely once more. Give us some sparks from the ambers of old to hold our short attention span at least just for another brief moment... =D

i will make it a point to kick your a$$ in the morning , bring an ice pack;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
"White Crane of Fujian brought the art back from taiwan after Qing took over Taiwan around 1670..... it was tested in the battle field and the art continous to evolve until today...even Wing Chun... passing 300 of years. The latest benchmark is the decendent of it draw with Wang Xiang-Zai of Yee Chuan.....
and the saga continous.

I guess it must be usefull."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"yea cool history lesson and all bro

what about training methods and if it can adapt to a modern platform ?" (Ernie)


Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

[PaulH]

There now, Hendrik! Dr. Octopus is coming to get me in the morning. You must tell me the secret of how to unplug his shocking power. Come to think of it, the power may consume everyone... Oh no those snaking winding arms ... Where has the crane gone? =D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
"White Crane of Fujian brought the art back from taiwan after Qing took over Taiwan around 1670..... it was tested in the battle field and the art continous to evolve until today...even Wing Chun... passing 300 of years. The latest benchmark is the decendent of it draw with Wang Xiang-Zai of Yee Chuan.....
and the saga continous.

I guess it must be usefull."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"yea cool history lesson and all bro

what about training methods and if it can adapt to a modern platform ?" (Ernie)


Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

The White Crane of Fujian people still consider it as an advance art today be it in China or Taiwan. Check it out from them.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by PaulH
There now, Hendrik! Dr. Octopus is coming to get me in the morning. You must tell me the secret of how to unplug his shocking power. Come to think of it, the power may consume everyone... Oh no those snaking winding arms ... Where has the crane gone? =D

we have just shifted gears from a friendly beat down
to a good old fashion passionate a$$whoopin

were you get your shoes , hat and your coat took 'n

oh and that little care package of vcd's you were going to get
key word going :D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
There now, Hendrik! Dr. Octopus is coming to get me in the morning. You must tell me the secret of how to unplug his shocking power. Come to think of it, the power may consume everyone... Oh no those snaking winding arms ... Where has the crane gone? =D


Crane way, Emei way,..... different ways. That is thus I have heard. so you learn it from Ernie. That is better.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
The White Crane of Fujian people still consider it as an advance art today be it in China or Taiwan. Check it out from them.

yep there sending shock waves around world with all that '' advanced stuff ''


sorry couldn't help myself

bad ernie :p

[Ultimatewingchun]

Excuse me...but I've got to go now!



Have an appointment....



back on...



planet...




EARTH.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
yea cool history lesson and all bro

what about training methods and if is can adapt to modern platform ?

how will one know if it can adapt to the modern platform,
if one cant describe one's own process of Shock power? :D

until I know how to describe my process clearly in details, I dont know if I know what others will do. since there is no way to analized:D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Excuse me...but I've got to go now!



Have an appointment....



back on...



planet...




EARTH.


what and spoil the fun on in the butterscotch dimension ,

the year 1600

the place emie mountain

people are taking the form of snakes and cranes and they can fly \

hey vic check your email ---- time to go hit the town

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
what and spoil the fun on in the butterscotch dimension ,

the year 1600

the place emie mountain

people are taking the form of snakes and cranes and they can fly \

hey vic check your email ---- time to go hit the town


some remember the water's source where they drink the water. Some dont. that is 2004. :D:D:D

[PaulH]

I learn from all who walk in the path of my life. You, Ernie, and others are always important people to me. Okay, off to the TV, I'm going to see "The Fellowship of the Kings" =)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
I learn from all who walk in the path of my life. You, Ernie, and others are always important people to me. Okay, off to the TV, I'm going to see "The Fellowship of the Kings" =)


I dont know the Shock Power Ernie did . The rest, It is a thus, I have heard. I am going to watch Spiderman 3. hehehehe

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
yep there sending shock waves around world with all that '' advanced stuff ''


sorry couldn't help myself

bad ernie :p

President Bush thinks this is the most advanced stuff:
http://www.yanxinqigong.net/
He can live six years without eating and emitt his chi around the world and claims to have 160,000,000 followers:

http://members.fortunecity.com/zhusb/intro/brief_intro.html#4

Yan Xin Qigong and Modern Science

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As suggested in the above paragraphs, Yan Xin Qigong involves a close relationship with the physical sciences. In China today, there are dozens of high level Qigong practitioners who work, to various degree, with research institutions. However, not one of these practitioners have come close to what Dr. Yan Sin has accomplished both in China and in the United States in promoting the scientific study of Qigong. Dr. Yan Xing was the first person in China's history to cooperate with the best research institutes in China and America. To date, Dr. Yan Xin has conducted over two-hundred scientific sudies, many of which have been published in reputable academic journals. No other practitioner or master of Qigong have been able to repeat Dr. Yan Xin's experiments to any significant degree. Among Dr. Yan Xin's published Qigong experiments are:

The change of the Raman spectroscopy of water molecules.
The change of the molecular structure of DNA and RNA.
The change of the surface structure of cancer cells.
The reduction of the radiation half-life of isotope Am (241) dramatically
- a previously impossible ask by any known physical means.
The creation of a prolonged 'Bi-gu' (a non-eating state in which one does not eat food because one feels full all the time, intrinsically different from common fast) that lasted for almost six years.
Through experiments such as the above, medical authorities in the United States and the Western world are beginning to understand that it is possible for Dr. Yan Xin to heal people through Qi- emission and Qigong practice. Encouraged by the success of these experiments, Dr. Yan Xin has been teaching and lecturing in the United States for the last three years to build more support of Qigong study and practice. Dr. Yan Xin has also been conducting many new experiments with scientists from top research universities in the United States. Because of the prevalence of AIDS in the United States and the world, Dr. Yan Xin has made an active effort in AIDS treatment with encouraging results! In short, Dr. Yan Xin believes that in order for Qigong to be accepted by the modern world, it must pass the test of rigorous scientific study. Without such a test, Qigong practice runs into the danger of being dismissed as 'superstition' or as a 'miracle' power. Qigong is but only a physical force, like water, that has the power, such as water does, to meet the survival needs of all life, not just human life. This concept is difficult for some people to accept, and it is one of the primary reasons that have led Dr. Yan Xin to come to the United States, a country with the largest and most reputable scientific community in the world. For his efforts to reach Americans with Qigong practice, President Buch received Dr. Yan Xin on several occasions and praised him as the sage of our times. For his distinguished contributions to American society, the state government of California recognized Dr. Yan Xin as an Honorary Citizen of the California State.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
how will one know if it can adapt to the modern platform,
if one cant describe one's own process of Shock power? :D

until I know how to describe my process clearly in details, I dont know if I know what others will do. since there is no way to analized:D

funny words ffrom some one who describes ----------------------------------------------------------- nothing


thus i have heard


told you meet me and i will show you , i don't hide behind , other peoples stuff

i know what i can do

and have no problem backing up what i say


instead of thus i have heard


as for the water , my well has more then some tired old stail water from china

sorry if your mind can not see beyond that , i guess it's more of that 3rd chakra stuff ha ha ha

hendrik anytime you want to find out what i'm capable of just let me know no need to waste words :D

[Ernie]

Ray

you know i don't buy any of that stuff man

:D

and besides has nothing to do with getting out of your car and getting bum rushed and having to survive that ;)


yes I know 3rd chakra speeding to the 1st :D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
Ray

you know i don't buy any of that stuff man



and besides has nothing to do with getting out of your car and getting bum rushed and having to survive that ;)


yes I know 3rd chakra speeding to the 1st :D






Ernie,


You know I don't buy any of the following stuff man. :D




-------------------------------------------------------------- -----

****but i'm a hands on person , teach/express best by way of feel and experience

ther is many things that have to be lined up depending on the type of [ shock] you want to send

linkage , postion , timing , breathing , mind

all working together at the right moment , and sent in the right place , this is only a skill when it can be applied in motion when some one is resisiting

then the true essence of it's function will show

i don't think to much about it [ thinking creates resisitence and road blocks in the mind and body ]




****this stuff is a very deep well in my head and once i start i would be typing all day , add in all my spelling mistakes and you would go nuts


****on the next to tiers of training it would stand out more but really shock is a feeling and anyone could fake it just have to be on the end of it to keep things honest


-------------------------------------------------------





yea cool sound like a great ZEN book lecture ---- mind, right moment, and teach/express best by way of feel and experience ..----
all bro.


"linkage , postion , timing , breathing , mind all working together at the right moment "
how is this complicated and Vague stuffs being applied in a fraction of second?

One Cant even remember these stuffs while one is dozying into sleep in a cozy bed without distraction (dont believe me? just trying to repeat the above Linkage, postion.... and see if you have already dozed off before you finished the repeating :) )

how is one expecting to remember this under pressure (as you said PRESSURE MAN ! ;) ) hahahaha

what about training methods and it is can adapt to modern platform ? or even the past platform . or there is no modern or past platform at all. Just needs to apply in a fraction of second? ;)


And,
what is the definition of a shock power? not to mention not asking the major key of shock power generation yet? :D





PS. glad that you turn into AT department and ZEN teacher!

As for me,
I rather buy a stunt gun. a one time action.

http://www.watkinsselfdefense.com/stunmaster775.htm


just turn the switch on. a one time one second single action.

and Zap at any time any place. a split second action. See, that is Modern Platfrom. Hehehehe

there is how my stunt gun shock power! Nah, not those -----ther is many things that have to be lined up depending on the type of [ shock] you want to send

linkage , postion , timing , breathing , mind -----



ofcorse you can be the greatest fighter in the universe to kick the yellowpikachu A$$ , but you know , what doesnt make sense still doesnt make sense. :D

a stunt gun is much better. dont need the etheletic body and the macho tough attitude under Pressure. Just ZAP! hehehehe
as Thus, I have heard somewhere, GM Ip Man once said " so complicated is it Neucler physics? " :D

Bad yellowpikachu in a saturday morning. pika pika chu. ;)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
Ray

you know i don't buy any of that stuff man

:D

and besides has nothing to do with getting out of your car and getting bum rushed and having to survive that ;)


yes I know 3rd chakra speeding to the 1st :D

I don't either Ernie.

Ray

[Ernie]

how is this complicated and Vague stuffs being applied in a fraction of second?
hendrik


it's only complicated to you bro

very easy if trained right and you remove all the BS

but i know some people can't handle simple , so they take the long road


training methods is all it is
if you don't have them i ca see why you would get lost in the past ;)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
how is this complicated and Vague stuffs being applied in a fraction of second?
hendrik


it's only complicated to you bro

very easy if trained right and you remove all the BS

but i know some people can't handle simple , so they take the long road


training methods is all it is
if you don't have them i ca see why you would get lost in the past ;)



As I said above:

glad that you now work in the AT department and become a ZEN teacher! :D


As for me,
I rather live an IT life and buy a stunt gun.

http://www.watkinsselfdefense.com/stunmaster775.htm


hahahahaha.

BTW, as a AT officer, you still didnt tell all of us. What is the definition of your Shock power. Is it Ken Gen? or is it not? :D:D


as for " i know some people can't handle simple , so they take the long road ..."

sound real AT and snake oil :D:D:D



yellowpikachu real bad in saturday. hehehehe

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
As I said above:

glad that you now work in the AT department and become a ZEN teacher! :D


As for me,
I rather live an IT life and buy a stunt gun.

http://www.watkinsselfdefense.com/stunmaster775.htm


hahahahaha.

BTW, as a AT officer, you still didnt tell all of us. What is the definition of your Shock power. Is it Ken Gen? or is it not? :D:D

i learned from you that not every one desrves the information ;)

bro, and you know were yiu can stuff your AT and your IT

you really need to grow past labels keeps you very limited

:D :D

as usual another poisened thread by nonsense :rolleyes:

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
i learned from you that not every one desrves the information ;)

bro, and you know were yiu can stuff your AT and your IT

you really need to grow past labels keeps you very limited

:D :D

as usual another poisened thread by nonsense :rolleyes:


you watch lots of

http://www.angelhaven.com/cgi-bin/WebX?13%40132.gZzha4xhj8x0%40.ee7b80d^

http://the-psychics.co.uk/sylvia-browne.htm

lately? :D:D:D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
you watch lots of

http://www.angelhaven.com/cgi-bin/WebX?13%40132.gZzha4xhj8x0%40.ee7b80d^

http://the-psychics.co.uk/sylvia-browne.htm

lately? :D:D:D

no bro,
i'm to busy -------- um-------- what's that thing you don't do --------
oh yes -----TRAINING

nuff said :cool:

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
no bro,
i'm to busy -------- um-------- what's that thing you don't do --------
oh yes -----TRAINING

nuff said :cool:


Great, as a AT officer, you still didnt tell all of us.
What is the definition of your Shock power. Is it Ken Gen? or is it not? after all the TRAINING you still cant tell? :D:D:D

you need Sylvia help to ask Yim Wing Chun? ;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Great, as a AT officer, you still didnt tell all of us.
What is the definition of your Shock power. Is it Ken Gen? or is it not? after all the TRAINING you still cant tell? :D:D:D

you need Sylvia help to ask Yim Wing Chun? ;)

told you bro,
i'll show you , better to feel , why waste information on a closed mind ,

if you need to think of yourself as the keeper of all the secrets go ahead

you can be the emperor
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/images/1stemp.gif
of internet wing chun
:rolleyes:

to many layers of bull$hit with you man ,

if you really wanted to know , you would set up a meeting
or go visit gary , oh wait but you have a label for that to [ big man style ]

all labels ---- no hands on = layers of bull$hit

go play with your vibrater

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah...um...well...ah...you know, Ernie...about po pai...that is what this thread is about...right?

Well...I think po pai is a very useful move to put on when you're really close to the guy...on the inside or the outside of his arms...doesn't matter - and you're going forward - or he's going forward...or you're both going forward and/or you took his arm(s) off the line - and you're just THERE...too close for a punch...could use an elbow...but you decide that a safer route would be straight in with the po pai butterfly plams - as a push - as a hit - as both all at the same time...to stop his forward attack...to unbalance him...to throw him back...to follow with a pull forward as he pushes back on the po pai envelope...and the pull gains an angle for you to punch/palm/elbow strike him, sweep him to the ground, arm lock him, etc....

Po pai is good stuff, Ernie. You and I talked about this once before on a different thread - but worth repeating...some new and good stuff might come out.

AH....FEELS GOOD TO BE BACK ON PLANET EARTH !

[old jong]

told you bro,
i'll show you , better to feel , why waste information on a closed mind

Ernie! You told us (not only hendrik) that you know how to produce good shock power in PoPai.You even told ud that you were good in it and you told Ray that you don't use brute force in it. We want to know about it.How do you train that thing?...I bet we can understand without being "dropped"!...;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by old jong
Ernie! You told us (not only hendrik) that you know how to produce good shock power in PoPai.You even told ud that you were good in it and you told Ray that you don't use brute force in it. We want to know about it.How do you train that thing?...I bet we can understand without being "dropped"!...;)

it's not hard , but hendrik just kills my desire to even give it out . it's simply a progressive training method , that starts with a big action ,
that gets big results and then you shave away the amount of motion on your part to get the same results until it is a very small pulse

with the same explosive results

it has a 2 part energy one [ sealing ] lining up the sights and position , then the pulse .

you see if you just try and send on the first action the person can escape or roll with it or stall it by sending in there own

it's the ability to gather them in then put the shock on them
- think huen sau po pai with a foreward intent . you eat space and draw them in , like loading a spring or winding a coil , then snap , you pop n in with a short burst through the palm , but contact is lined up with the finger tips [ lightly ]

like to energies working together then exploding off each other

if you really want a break down Jong I got no problem sharing , your good people

but hendrik is a putz with an agenda and I don't like to waste good information on a putz

so hit me on a email

it really isn't that hard , if you understand the power release from the dragon pole it has a similar seed

there is a link of progressive drills that build on each other to get to this point

then it's up to the person to mature the skill

not rocket science .


as for brute force you can't shock with brut force , you can shove or push , but there is no room for contraction , this would create too much resistance in the motion and cause it to fight itself

the linkage has to be able to gather and expand

nuff man ,

lets let the little emperor take us back in time and see what comes of that
:p

[yellowpikachu]

but hendrik just kills my desire to even give it out . -----E

See, IT is curious about ET not AT. AT hates IT because IT asks too many questions to AT. so AT blame everything on IT when there is no answer. ;)

(note: AT = approximate model type. SAT = Sifu's approximation model type. IT = Iterative model type. ET = Experimental trial and erro model type)





it's simply a progressive training method , that starts with a big action ,
that gets big results and then you shave away the amount of motion on your part to get tye same results until it is a very small pulse with the same explosive results ------E


What is a pulse? how to generate that pulse? ;)






you see if you just try and send on the first action the person can escape or roll with it or stall it by sending in there own

it's th ability to gather them in then put the shock on them ---- E


I still prefer Stunt gun better. dont need to line up. just ZAP. ;)






like to energies working together then exploding off each other

if you really want a break down Jong i got no problem sharing , your good people

but hendrik is a putz with an agenda and i don't like to waste good information on a putz ------ E



Hey man, I am just asking is your shock power the Ken Geng?

one way to find out when one shift from an AT to IT is when the skin become thinner. ;)

IT takes all kind of critics, and still not shy to tell what IT found. Right or Wrong, who is perfect? ;)







as for briute force you can't shock with brut force , you can shove or push , but there is no room for contraction , this would great to much resisitance in the motion and cause it to fight itself -----E



Hey Bro, your english is wost then mine. strange that no one is correcting your english even you make worst mistake in english compare with the yellowpikachu :D

spelling erros, run on sentence, dangling sentence....
ERNIE are you mesh around with those seasame street friends of you who cannot say Yellow but Lellow again? :p

have a nice saturday night. Yellowpikachu is bad. not get into nightmare in ELM street. Seaseme street is ok! :D:D

[Ernie]

I still prefer Stunt gun better. dont need to line up. just ZAP


yes i know your the king of words

---What is a pulse? how to generate that pulse


oh trust me one day i will see you and be very happy to show you ;)


You know your skin must be not as thick as the YellowPikachu.
IT takes all kind of critics, and still not shy to tell what IT found. Right or Wrong, who is perfect?

--- it's not that bro , your vain and a snob ,
for example you can't handle that some one could even have a skill out side of your defenition , so you pick at it like a little kid

i leave my offer wide open put up or shut up , lets meet and striaghten this whole thing out , but you won't will you just like the rest of the blow hards , just love the sound of there own voice

if you got the balls to call me on something , then lets do it bro
i'm very upfront and have no problem putting something together

the only way to really understand something is to experience it who knows may be you can show me something

but i won't hold my breath

so how far do you want to take this :rolleyes:

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
I still prefer Stunt gun better. dont need to line up. just ZAP


yes i know your the king of words

---What is a pulse? how to generate that pulse


oh trust me one day i will see you and be very happy to show you ;)


You know your skin must be not as thick as the YellowPikachu.
IT takes all kind of critics, and still not shy to tell what IT found. Right or Wrong, who is perfect?

--- it's not that bro , your vain and a snob ,
for example you can't handle that some one could even have a skill out side of your defenition , so you pick at it like a little kid

i leave my offer wide open put up or shut up , lets meet and striaghten this whole thing out , but you won't will you just like the rest of the blow hards , just love the sound of there own voice

if you got the balls to call me on something , then lets do it bro
i'm very upfront and have no problem putting something together

the only way to really understand something is to experience it who knows may be you can show me something

but i won't hold my breath

so how far do you want to take this :rolleyes:

----------------------------------
Originally posted by Ernie
Ray

you know i don't buy any of that stuff man



and besides has nothing to do with getting out of your car and getting bum rushed and having to survive that


yes I know 3rd chakra speeding to the 1st

--------------------------------------

hey bro, have a nice sleep!

if it is a shock power no one can deny it.

disagreement is usual. :cool:

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
----------------------------------
--------------------------------------

hey have a nice sleep! :D:D:D

just as i excpected :eek:

all talk :o


no sleep for me i'm an insomniac , books to read , movies to watch

sleep well hendrik , but keep one eye open ;)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
just as i excpected :eek:

all talk :o


no sleep for me i'm an insomniac , books to read , movies to watch

sleep well hendrik , but keep one eye open ;)



you see. reality is reality. nothing to do about talk or who beat who. The bottom line is -- IS it or is it not.

You can call the MAs Oyama sloppy and Chen Man-Ching fake. That is ok. why not? got to embrace others view. :)


Night night Ernie, and keep an open heart for sweet dream! and have a great sunday! ;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
you see. reality is reality. nothing to do about talk or who beat who. The bottom line is -- IS it or is it not.

You can call the MAs Oyama sloppy and Chen Man-Ching fake. That is ok. why not? got to embrace others view. :)


Night night Ernie, and keep an open heart for sweet dream! and have a great sunday! ;)


reality is facing and experiencing first hand

Master o on the clip was sloppy and he had a low gaurd

the chen dude on the clip was a joke

now if i one day meet some one that can prove me wrong [ and i have no problem subjecting myself to a test at all . unlike some people we know ]

and this person has that skill and it's functional not just demo

i would research and train it with a big smile

until then :rolleyes:

as for who can beat up who , that's the childs way , i offer you a chance to step up and experience

i'm younger and still train and mix it up , i don't need to smack around older non training guys to get my jollies

like kicking a puppy

bad ju ju

it's like this if you really want to know then find out if all you want to do is talk , then it's a free country talk all you want

wing chun teaches you to deal with things head on , that is why i am very up front , no need to talk about what has not been experienced ;)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
reality is facing and experiencing first hand

Master o on the clip was sloppy and he had a low gaurd

the chen dude on the clip was a joke

now if i one day meet some one that can prove me wrong [ and i have no problem subjecting myself to a test at all . unlike some people we know ]

and this person has that skill and it's functional not just demo

i would research and train it with a big smile

until then :rolleyes:

as for who can beat up who , that's the childs way , i offer you a chance to step up and experience

i'm younger and still train and mix it up , i don't need to smack around older non training guys to get my jollies

like kicking a puppy

bad ju ju

it's like this if you really want to know then find out if all you want to do is talk , then it's a free country talk all you want

wing chun teaches you to deal with things head on , that is why i am very up front , no need to talk about what has not been experienced ;)




Everything is ok.

Heaven is high. Deep is vast. how vast a person's heart is?

ultimately, what matter is ---- is it or is it not?



last night I watched Van Helsing the movie again.

The reason Van Helsing's heart beat stay natural and firm when he met Count Dracular is because he knows clearly---is it or is it not.

some others question themself, some others believingly to think Count Dracula means no escape death, some others affirm with brutely force that thier experience will beat the Count which within themself know they are not sure ---- is it or is it not?

Meeting Count Dracula is pressure. If one's mind shift into questioning, one's heart beat will become ilregular. Those who knows is it or is it not clearly doesnt mean will leave freely, incontradiction might even die. But, they know. Is it or is it not. silver bullet or not the silver bullet. holly water or spring water.

Before facing oneself truelly and know - is it or is it not. One cant face Count Dracula peacefully.
And, There is no time for that "automatic cross bow" to align to the bride of the Dracula, but shoot with its own high acceleration rate.
Even better is that "Sun Bomb" where it was invented as it is and dont know what to do about it. Turn out to be a creat blast of Sun Light in Budapest.

I love movies. Some called that fantasy. But is the movie fantasy when one knows clearly --- what is it or is it not?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
reality is facing and experiencing first hand

Master o on the clip was sloppy and he had a low gaurd

the chen dude on the clip was a joke

now if i one day meet some one that can prove me wrong [ and i have no problem subjecting myself to a test at all . unlike some people we know ]

and this person has that skill and it's functional not just demo

i would research and train it with a big smile

until then :rolleyes:

as for who can beat up who , that's the childs way , i offer you a chance to step up and experience

i'm younger and still train and mix it up , i don't need to smack around older non training guys to get my jollies

like kicking a puppy

bad ju ju

it's like this if you really want to know then find out if all you want to do is talk , then it's a free country talk all you want

wing chun teaches you to deal with things head on , that is why i am very up front , no need to talk about what has not been experienced ;)




Everything is ok.

Heaven is high. earth is vast. how vast a person's heart can be?

ultimately, what matter is ---- is it or is it not?
who win? who lost? become a dream.





last night I watched Van Helsing the movie again.

The reason Van Helsing's heart beat stay natural and firm when he met Count Dracular is because he knows clearly---is it or is it not.

some others question themself, some others believingly to think Count Dracula means no escape death, some others affirm with brutely force that thier experience will beat the Count which within themself know they are not sure ---- is it or is it not?

Meeting Count Dracula is pressure. If one's mind shift into questioning, one's heart beat will become ilregular. Those who knows is it or is it not clearly doesnt mean will leave freely, incontradiction might even die. But, they know. Is it or is it not. silver bullet or not the silver bullet. holly water or spring water.

Before facing oneself truelly and know - is it or is it not. One cant face Count Dracula peacefully.

And, in the movie, There is no time for that "automatic cross bow" to align to the bride of the Dracula who is much much more stronger , but the weapon shoot with its own high acceleration rate.
Even better is that "Sun Bomb" where it was invented as it is and some dont know what to do about it. Turn out to be a creat blast of Sun Light in Budapest's night sky.


I love to watch movies. Some called that fantasy. Some called it a reflection of life--- what is it or is it not? some called it the act of the silence watcher, movie is great.
more movie today for me .
So, let you all discuss is Shock power the Keng Geng and how the Keng Geng generated ...etc without my interuption talking about movies. ...:D


Uncertain turn into fear, fear turn into anger, anger turn into hatre, hatre turn into desire of eliminating, elimination with brute force turn into suffering. ---- Star Wars

[Ernie]

the never ending hendrik-- So, let you all discuss is Shock power the Keng Geng and how the Keng Geng generated ...etc without my interuption talking about movies.


I don’t know call me crazy =)
But I have an idea

Why don’t you break down your definition of the shocking energy [ in respect to po pai not cross bows ]and the training methods that develop it and how you use it
This way we can *all* share and compare and perhaps grow from the situation ,

One must sometimes give to receive


and try and stay away from thus i have heard , a little more like thus i can do or thus i have felt
;)

see nice and easy

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie...my friend:

I stopped reading Hendrik's posts a long time ago.

Total waste of time.

There's so little goin' on there - so much fluff surroundin' it - and no honesty whatsoever when he's contradicted with facts...not to mention the lack of English skills that makes 3/4 's of what he writes unintelligible in the first place. (Although...curiously enough - I've read some rare posts of his some time ago that were very easy to read from start to finish - which fact should tell you something more about his game.)

Ignore the chump. He'll never do a face-to-face with you anyway.

He knows what would happen.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Ernie...my friend:

I stopped reading Hendrik's posts a long time ago.

Total waste of time.

So there's so little goin' on there - so much fluff surroundin' it - and no honesty whatsoever when he's contradicted with facts...not to mention the lack of English skills that makes 3/4 's of what he writes unintelligible in the first place.

Ignore the chump. He'll never do a face-to-face with you anyway.

He knows what would happen.

I hear you Victor , it's sad though :(

chances to share and grow should not be missed , they tend to vanish when you don't jump on them

yesterday all my fighter buddies , rented a private boxing gym , to say good by to one of guys , he is moving away
so everyone got together boxers , kick boxers , BJJ and thai guys showed and stick dude all so we could jump in the ring and shot some video with him to remember all of us

of course i was training and blew it off

kicking myself now , and feeling like a crappy friend

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Chances to share and grow should not be missed , they tend to vanish when you don't jump on them...yesterday all my fighter buddies rented a private boxing gym to say good by to one of guys...of course i was training and blew it off. Kicking myself now, and feeling like a crappy friend."

Send him a handwritten letter tellin' him how much you've enjoyed workin' out with him these past years...and all will be fine.

In the meantime - as someone around here just said...

Chance's to share and grow should not be missed - so if there's more you could share with Jong (and the rest of us) about the shock power po pai thing - don't wait for a private message...

TELL US NOW !

And if a certain, jealous once-could-have-been-but-never-will-be clown tries to tear it down or minimalize it...

Ignore the dummy! Ignore his post. Ignore his whole existence.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[BSend him a handwritten letter tellin' him how much you've enjoyed workin' out with him these past years...and all will be fine.[/B]
Excellent advice!
Also mention that you are sorry you did not make it to the send off. I find that people are very forgiving if you give them the opportunity.

Also good advice on the ignoring those who bring grief into our space. Why do we feed them, instead of those who support us? We're funny creatures. ;)

Peace,

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Ernie...my friend:

I stopped reading Hendrik's posts a long time ago.

Total waste of time.

There's so little goin' on there - so much fluff surroundin' it - and no honesty whatsoever when he's contradicted with facts...not to mention the lack of English skills that makes 3/4 's of what he writes unintelligible in the first place. (Although...curiously enough - I've read some rare posts of his some time ago that were very easily to read from start to finish - which fact should tell you something more about his game.)

Ignore the chump. He'll never do a face-to-face with you anyway.

He knows what would happen.


Victor,

I didnt start this produce good shock power post.
The question I ask openly is simple

IS your shock power Keng Geng? what is the process of generating this shock power?


you know about Shock Power and keng Geng?
tell us! educate all of us here! :D


As for me I am here to listern and ask questions as everyone else only. so dont blame the audience. dont you expect others to ask questions and event dis-agree with you? instead of Yes Sifu Yes Sifu? Why is it everything has to be a one way street that you are right and all others is wrong and if they believe in other things and asked anything they are agaisnt you?

You certainly can ignore me if you dont want to answer me to tell me all your ancient chinese secret. I am not forcing you in anyway to answer me. But no need for personal attack right? ;)


PS: you didnt complain about Ernie's post yesterday on running sentences, dangling sentences, all the mis-spelling words? hehehehe you must be biased. :D

If some comment you that your are "and no honesty whatsoever when he's contradicted with facts...not to mention the lack of English skills..." will you be able to embrace other's view and comments without resolve in personal attack? hehehe. Think about it. for me, you know, you might be right your might be wrong. so, that is ok to critics. I listen. Thanks ;)

[Ernie]

Victor ,
just got your email
be sending you some stuff on video , ;)

Bill ,

email me on the side , didn't no this stuff was so special ha ha
guess i better reserve it for deserving people ;)

[Ernie]

hendrik-If some comment you that your are "and no honesty whatsoever when he's contradicted with facts...not to mention the lack of English skills..." will you be able to embrace other's view and comments without resolve in personal attack? hehehe. Think about it. for me, you know, you might be right your might be wrong. so, that is ok to critics. I listen. Thanks


don't excpect people to judge us the same big difference between us bro,
i got no agenda and i will step up and put myself on the line in person not problem

you got credibility issues man

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
hendrik-If some comment you that your are "and no honesty whatsoever when he's contradicted with facts...not to mention the lack of English skills..." will you be able to embrace other's view and comments without resolve in personal attack? hehehe. Think about it. for me, you know, you might be right your might be wrong. so, that is ok to critics. I listen. Thanks


don't excpect people to judge us the same big difference between us bro,

i got no agenda and i will step up and put myself on the line in person not problem

you got credibility issues man





Allow one to
not buying others stuffs until others understand better, or even allowed as you not buying Mas Oyama and Called Chen Man-Ching fake. is apart of communication.

is that a credibility or agenda issues of others which need to boil down to personal attact or is that "because you dont have the same believe with me so you are bad? ";)


Certainly, the communication protocall is clear for here and thanks for your sharing. it is your post and I leave it for you now.

[Ernie]

-- hendrik --Allow one to
not buying others stuffs until others understand better, or even allowed as you not buying Mas Oyama and Called Chen Man-Ching fake. is apart of communication.


i only spoke on the clips provided , guess it bugged you
if there is better stuff to see send me a link

but my filter and your filter are different

so we may never see eye to eye and that is fine just more color to the rainbow ;)

i don't care were something comes from how old it is or who created it only if it works , can i use it , is it worth the time to learn vs how often it may come up in a combative situation

i'm more of a selfishwh*re :D but i'm honest :p

you don't need to leave just add your view and training methods to produce your results
sharing is a 2 way street bro :cool:

[PaulH]

"...why abandon a belief
Merely because it ceases to be true.
Cling to it long enough, and not a doubt
It will turn true again, for so it goes.
Most of the change we think we see in life
Is due to truths being in and out of favour.
As I sit here, and oftentimes, I wish
I could be monarch of a desert land
I could devote and dedicate forever
To the truths we keep coming back and back to.
So desert it would have to be, so walled
By mountain ranges half in summer snow,
No one would covet it or think it worth
The pains of conquering to force change on.
Scattered oases where men dwelt, but mostly
Sand dunes held loosely in tamarisk
Blown over and over themselves in idleness... "

- The Black Cottage by Robert Frost

[Jeff Bussey]

Hi yellowpikachu,
I'm amazed at how clear you can write. This is the first post from you that I've been able to understand. And that's not a slight, I just thought your background wasn't in english so hey who am I to judge cause god knows I've got a hard enough time with english and it's my first language, but if you can write clearly why don't you all the time?

J



Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Victor,

I didnt start this produce good shock power post.
The question I ask openly is simple

IS your shock power Keng Geng? what is the process of generating this shock power?


you know about Shock Power and keng Geng?
tell us! educate all of us here! :D


As for me I am here to listern and ask questions as everyone else only. so dont blame the audience. dont you expect others to ask questions and event dis-agree with you? instead of Yes Sifu Yes Sifu? Why is it everything has to be a one way street that you are right and all others is wrong and if they believe in other things and asked anything they are agaisnt you?

You certainly can ignore me if you dont want to answer me to tell me all your ancient chinese secret. I am not forcing you in anyway to answer me. But no need for personal attack right? ;)


PS: you didnt complain about Ernie's post yesterday on running sentences, dangling sentences, all the mis-spelling words? hehehehe you must be biased. :D

If some comment you that your are "and no honesty whatsoever when he's contradicted with facts...not to mention the lack of English skills..." will you be able to embrace other's view and comments without resolve in personal attack? hehehe. Think about it. for me, you know, you might be right your might be wrong. so, that is ok to critics. I listen. Thanks ;)

[Bob8]

I think most underestimate
Hendrik and how much they can
learn from him. Sometimes difficult
to understand but most of the times
very interesting IMO.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hi Bob8,
I'm not underestimating him, just curious as to why if he can write clearly, just do so. Isn't it very un-ving tsun like to make things more complicated then they have to be?
I don't know his background or how long he's been training (most likely longer than I have) so it's not a question of his skill level.
I just think that it's a shame that if he can make his point clearly than why not do it that way.

J

[Bob8]

Hi Jeff,

>I just think that it's a shame that if he can
>make his point clearly than why not do it that way.

People tend to forget there are different cultures.
Some people are traditional or try to let you find
your own answer.

Some expect (almost demand) to get a clear/direct
answer. It is not common to give that in many many
cultures that are not consumer orientated "I pay for
lessons I have the right that you teach me everything
and I decide when I want to learn"
It is simply not how it works with the more traditional
people.

[kj]

Originally posted by Bob8
Hi Jeff,

>I just think that it's a shame that if he can
>make his point clearly than why not do it that way.

People tend to forget there are different cultures.
Some people are traditional or try to let you find
your own answer.

Some expect (almost demand) to get a clear/direct
answer. It is not common to give that in many many
cultures that are not consumer orientated "I pay for
lessons I have the right that you teach me everything
and I decide when I want to learn"
It is simply not how it works with the more traditional
people.

IMHO, it is a great loss that this board is not presently very sensitive or respectful of mutli-culturalism. Not limited to Hendrik.

Regards,
- kj

[Jeff Bussey]

Hi Bob8 and Kj,
If he wants to talk in riddle that's fine, I enjoy puzzles.
But, that's not what I'm talking about. He can still write out puzzles or riddles and be legible at the same time.
I'm not even talking about the content of what's being said.

I just found it odd that some posts I've read by him are well written and others, I can't follow at all (granted I'm slow, I just think it goes beyond that)

In the end it doesn't matter what I think about how he writes, it's a wing chun discussion board. For the most part I always start reading his posts but can't finish them.

Nothing against culture or race.

J

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I'm amazed at how clear you can write. This is the first post from you that I've been able to understand...but if you can write clearly why don't you all the time?"

Because a big part of his agenda is to play the role of "mysterious and esoteric old kung fu wizard."

It's such a waste of time - both his and ours.

[SAAMAG]

I've been reading (more like skimming at points) through this thread looking for some elaboration on po pai. I am still a novice in wing chun and have learned methods from various teachers and sources. Right now however I am still basically at level two, SLT, CK, and I had the muk jong form but have since forgotten things over the past three years of time off. At this point it's just the basics that I try to perfect.

One thing I've encountered as a problem as of yet getting back on the saddle is the different terminology that Im relearning. Ernie could you elaborate for me po pai? I don't need anything too elaborate, but with you being in NCA, and me being in TX, it poses a problem working with you on it hands on. I would love to head up there one day and train with you and Gary though.

You can use my email address if you wish...vankuen@sbcglobal.net. Thanks to you and anyone else on here that can assist.

(FYI I have about 22 years of martial arts experience...so I should be able to keep up with your concepts/theories etc.)

[Ernie]

Vankuen

sure thing man , i have been swamped by emails on this but , i always got time --- email me Ernie@wingchuncoach.com
tell me your ideas on it [ Po Pai ]
good bad , why we do it , stuff like that , so i have a point to start from [ hell you might teach me some new stuff ]

there is some video stuff looks like i will be sending out a lot :D

no problem sharing ,

;)

[Jeff Bussey]

Ernie,
Can I be a pest and have you add me that email list?

J

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
Ernie,
Can I be a pest and have you add me that email list?

J

no such thing as a pest :)

i just figure it would be much easier to have a long distance conversation with video footage

if the list gets to big i might just have to upload some stuff to my site

mailing out this many VCD's could get expensive ;)

just email man if you want to rap about this stuff
i find when people are off the forum they are alot easier to rap with

and it seems like this stuff is interesting to alot of people , so those that want to take a another step and rap off forum , i'll do my best to share what i can

[kj]

Ernie, please add me to your list too if you don't mind. I hate to burden people with too many special offline requests and such, but since it appears you're doing it on behalf of so many others anyway, hopefully one more won't matter much.

If the offline bandwidth and onesey-twoseys does get to be too burdensome, forum postings work just as well - for me at least.

Regards & TIA,
- kj

[Ernie]

Originally posted by kj
Ernie, please add me to your list too if you don't mind. I hate to burden people with too many special offline requests and such, but since it appears you're doing it on behalf of so many others anyway, hopefully one more won't matter much.

If the offline bandwidth and onesey-twoseys does get to be too burdensome, forum postings work just as well - for me at least.

Regards & TIA,
- kj

cool email me

you know i'm down for open forum but things just poisened so quickly these days , and i'm all for a good mud sling'n fest

but this seems to be a subject people ''really'' want to investigate

and that deserves at least a chance to flow with out the normal static ;)

again my list is up to or beyond 25 people from around the globe so it will be a bit expensive so i will send out a few at a time

what i'm thinking about sending is a base po pai vcd gary has it shows the useage of each hand [some of you might have it ] and then we can talk about the training methods and what to look for in power development

now this may or may not be a big deal or mean anything to anyone
but all we can do is share ;)

[Matrix]

Hey Ernie,
What's up with the Pink Floyd logo??

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Matrix
Hey Ernie,
What's up with the Pink Floyd logo??


was supposed to be this cool animation but it didn't work out :p

[Ernie]

http://wingchuncoach.com/GaryLamclip.wmv

small clip of gary talking about the explosive power with a small demo looking for som more flashy stuff

but something to look at ;)

[sihing]

I like the discussion on explosive power/speed per say. I like to relate WC punching speed to a bullet coming out of the barrel of a gun, the bullet is fastest the instant it comes out of the barrel of the gun and therefore explosive, the same should be true of a good WC punch. Accompanying explosive speed comes explosive power, and from short range too, add two hands to it like in the Po Pai palms and it's doubly effective. Good clip Ernie..

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Ernie: Nice clip!

[Phil Redmond]

Po Pai is used in TWC.
"Po" means to embrace or carry.
"pai" means "sign"/"signboard".
So "po pai" means to embrace or carry the signboard.
PR

[kj]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Po Pai is used in TWC.
"Po" means to embrace or carry.
"pai" means "sign"/"signboard".
So "po pai" means to embrace or carry the signboard.
PR

We were just talking about this with Ken on his last visit. He too describes it as embracing a wooden board.

The description of pai he used was of logs sliced lengthwise, which might commonly be seen floating down a river, presumably for further processing. Interestingly, the connotation of embrace is consistent with our work on the dummy, and with our method of generating force including the "shocking" type of energy. As I recall, the nickname "pai" is sometimes used for the jong.

Regards,
- kj

[Jim Roselando]

Hey all,


Here is a real twist for this whole topic!

hehe

Did you guys know that Leung Jan discarded/modified the standard hands (high/low palms) when teaching in Koo Lo! Things that make you go hmmmmm! hehe


First, not that it matters much but just for conversation, the name of that skill was called Wu Dip Jeung (butterfly palms) by Leung Jan and not Po Pai. I would be curious to know if anyone knows who came up with that term or if it was always around as another nickname for it???

Wu Dip Jeung or Turning Butterfly Hands is a major training in our art. Leung Jan taught a Sik that was just around that and its training. He also designed a Butterfly Hands Chi Sao to help cultivate the skills. At this stage one would also begin to learn Seung Lung Chut Hoi (twin dragons emerge from the sea). Its a variation of Wu Dip.


Check out the attachment! #18 This is from the 22 point version of Leung Jan's art but as you can see the Turning Hands is part of it.


Gotta run,

[Vajramusti]

From the beginning I have been used to using the terms po pai
and/or butterfly palms. Difference in labels not in the motions or execution. With the right development it can be integrated with chi sao.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"First, not that it matters much but just for conversation, the name of that skill was called Wu Dip Jeung (butterfly palms) by Leung Jan and not Po Pai. I would be curious to know if anyone knows who came up with that term or if it was always around as another nickname for it???"

Jim:

Moy Yat never interpreted the term po pai into English in any other way - to my recollection. It was always just butterfly palms.

The same with William Cheung. And both men taught how to use po pai in chi sao and application - although William Cheung's approach to chi sao and the applications differs in a number of ways...including a po pai move that's done in the chum kiu form. But the basic principle was the same for both men - it was a very close quarter two handed strike/push that was meant to shock and/or throw the opponent back.

[Ernie]

Ok guys here are a few more for your enjoyment critique whatever =)
There still just of out basic PO PAI training pushing and position aspect , after we get this part down we freestyle PO PAI to PO PAI increasing speed and power as the sensitivity grows , being able to cut each others timing and capture there center as there trying to capture yours , then we shorten the action and start to put more of the shock in , we work on shock and send , the shock freezes him into position then you steal that moment to send him it all looks like on fluid action when done correctly

The second part of the training we just put in another DVD that will dome out in a few months . I’ll try and get my camera to class and see if I can isolate some of the shock stuff and send it out to those that emailed me

Have fun

Ps the compression came out real weird and green looking on these clips , sorry about that

http://wingchuncoach.com/changinghandpopai.wmv


http://wingchuncoach.com/huensaupopai.wmv


http://wingchuncoach.com/Quansaupopai.wmv


http://wingchuncoach.com/rightwrongbongpopai.wmv

[CFT]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
First, not that it matters much but just for conversation, the name of that skill was called Wu Dip Jeung (butterfly palms) by Leung Jan and not Po Pai. I would be curious to know if anyone knows who came up with that term or if it was always around as another nickname for it???I read somewhere (Thus I have heard?), can't remember where - that "po pai" was a term coined by Yip Man. Might be consistent with the origin stories for differences in these terms:

Baat Jaam Do / Butterfly knives (woo dip do)
Siu Num Tau / Siu Lin Tau
"Searching for the Bridge" rather than "Sinking the Bridge"

[dfl]

Originally posted by CFT
I read somewhere (Thus I have heard?), can't remember where - that "po pai" was a term coined by Yip Man.

This is not true. If you read a book on crane from Fujien, you'll see the term "po pai" used for a similar technique.
The 2 handed technique (1 up, 1 down) is very common in sourthern Chinese styles (Hung kuen, CLF), and it's called wu dip jeung. YKS calls his wu dip jeung also, while YM calls his po pai. Details may differ though.

[YongChun]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Po Pai is used in TWC.
"Po" means to embrace or carry.
"pai" means "sign"/"signboard".
So "po pai" means to embrace or carry the signboard.
PR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kathy-Jo:

We were just talking about this with Ken on his last visit. He too describes it as embracing a wooden board.

Ray:

Wang Kiu said the same thing in a 1985 seminar.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by dfl
This is not true. If you read a book on crane from Fujien, you'll see the term "po pai" used for a similar technique.
The 2 handed technique (1 up, 1 down) is very common in sourthern Chinese styles (Hung kuen, CLF), and it's called wu dip jeung. YKS calls his wu dip jeung also, while YM calls his po pai. Details may differ though.

Since you brought it up.

Thus, I have heard.

Po Pai "embrace the sign" term is an inheritant of White Crane from Fujien. (another indicator of the White Crane of Fujian Connection)

There is another Poh Pai term in WCK. Poh Pai which means "breaking the Sign". a different technics.


So, there are a Poh Pai and a Po Pai.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Victor,


Jim:

Moy Yat never interpreted the term po pai into English in any other way - to my recollection. It was always just butterfly palms.

Thats interesting as I know a few of his grandstudents that train in Boston and they all call it Board Holding. It doesn't matter tho! Same move! JR

The same with William Cheung. And both men taught how to use po pai in chi sao and application - although William Cheung's approach to chi sao and the applications differs in a number of ways...including a po pai move that's done in the chum kiu form. But the basic principle was the same for both men - it was a very close quarter two handed strike/push that was meant to shock and/or throw the opponent back.

The Wu Dip training of Leung Jan's art is first taught solo/jong and then has a two man sticking set to develop the Wu Dip and then is done in Chi Sao etc. etc.. I have seen William do the TWC Po Pai and have seen Delroi do Po Pai. Since you mention "close quarter" I would probally say that TWC is not a close quarter art but please do not take that the wrong way. Its fine but just longer range expression of WC hand fighting IMO. Its all good tho!

:)


Hey! I have to run but thanks for sharing!


Gotta run,

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by Ernie
Ok guys here are a few more for your enjoyment critique whatever =)
There still just of out basic PO PAI training pushing and position aspect , after we get this part down we freestyle PO PAI to PO PAI increasing speed and power as the sensitivity grows , being able to cut each others timing and capture there center as there trying to capture yours , then we shorten the action and start to put more of the shock in , we work on shock and send , the shock freezes him into position then you steal that moment to send him it all looks like on fluid action when done correctly

The second part of the training we just put in another DVD that will dome out in a few months . I’ll try and get my camera to class and see if I can isolate some of the shock stuff and send it out to those that emailed me

Have fun

Ps the compression came out real weird and green looking on these clips , sorry about that

http://wingchuncoach.com/changinghandpopai.wmv


http://wingchuncoach.com/huensaupopai.wmv


http://wingchuncoach.com/Quansaupopai.wmv


http://wingchuncoach.com/rightwrongbongpopai.wmv


Hey Ernie

Are these the same as on the DVD??? I cant download these as yet as i havent got broadband (Yet).

Kev

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Kevin Bell
Hey Ernie

Are these the same as on the DVD??? I cant download these as yet as i havent got broadband (Yet).

Kev

yep there from the old stuff not the new stuff
i haven't got the new stuff yet :)

you don't need broad band i made them very small

[Kevin Bell]

Christ mate you're quick to reply i didnt even see you lurking

Gary certainly looks to have a lot of power mate thats for sure..

Is there any articles kicking about of gary talking about his training days with WSL at all or his own beimo days???

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Kevin Bell
Christ mate you're quick to reply i didnt even see you lurking

Gary certainly looks to have a lot of power mate thats for sure..

Is there any articles kicking about of gary talking about his training days with WSL at all or his own beimo days???

that was lazy over wieght gary , he is swimming and running now
speed and power are jumping big time , i used to be able to hold him off in a poon sau pressure game we would play but i got sent flying on sat.

my senior has alot of information on gary and might one day publish something

you know me i'm not into the history of things just don't have time to waste on that stuff ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I have seen William (Cheung) do the TWC Po Pai and have seen Delroi do Po Pai. Since you mention "close quarter" I would probally say that TWC is not a close quarter art but please do not take that the wrong way. Its fine but just longer range expression of WC hand fighting IMO. Its all good tho!"

I don't take it the wrong way, Jim...no sweat.

Had a similar conversation off line recently with Ernie...TWC definitely emphasizes how to attack from the long range and use longer range kicks, footwork, trapping/striking strategies, etc....more than a lot of other WC- and especially the whole blindside parallel leg strategy thing....but there's quite a bit to the TWC inside close range game that sometimes gets overlooked...even by people in TWC! Which includes, amoungst other things - fighting from the cross leg position.

1) Parallel leg blindside position - ie.- TWC has lead right leg to the outside of the opponent's lead left leg...and tries to get past the opponent's lead foot - thereby taking his flank and sealing off the area making it very difficult for the opponent to use his right hand/leg as weapons...(while creating a two-on-one advantage: the 2 TWC arms deal with only the left arm of the opponent)...

2) Cross leg open side position - ie.- TWC has lead right leg to the inside of the opponent's lead right leg...much more difficult to isolate 2-on-1 , and seal off an area...but does include moving from the cross to the parallel leg position as the hand /arm engagement is going on.

The other possibilities...

3) ie. - the TWC lead right leg to the inside of the opponent's lead left leg....or the lead right leg to the outside of the opponent's right leg....are a no-no in TWC...and both these positions could conceivably bring the TWC fighter to a much closer range than the first two I outlined....hence your remarks?!

But here's the caveat...there are certain instances when fighting in the cross leg position (2) or even breaking the rules of foot placement and doing (3) make perfect sense and ARE used in TWC...

but this part of the TWC game is/was rarely discussed/shown outside of private sessions/seminars back in the day and is usually not trained enough, imo...these days.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"I have seen William (Cheung) do the TWC Po Pai and have seen Delroi do Po Pai. Since you mention "close quarter" I would probally say that TWC is not a close quarter art but please do not take that the wrong way. Its fine but just longer range expression of WC hand fighting IMO. Its all good tho!"

I don't take it the wrong way, Jim...no sweat.

Had a similar conversation off line recently with Ernie...TWC definitely emphasizes how to attack from the long range and use longer range kicks, footwork, trapping/striking strategies, etc....more than a lot of other WC- and especially the whole blindside parallel leg strategy thing....but there's quite a bit to the TWC inside close range game that sometimes gets overlooked...even by people in TWC! Which includes, amoungst other things - fighting from the cross leg position.

1) Parallel leg blindside position - ie.- TWC has lead right leg to the outside of the opponent's lead left leg...and tries to get past the opponent's lead foot - thereby taking his flank and sealing off the area making it very difficult for the opponent to use his right hand/leg as weapons...(while creating a two-on-one advantage: the 2 TWC arms deal with only the left arm of the opponent)...

2) Cross leg open side position - ie.- TWC has lead right leg to the inside of the opponent's lead right leg...much more difficult to isolate 2-on-1 , and seal off an area...but does include moving from the cross to the parallel leg position as the hand /arm engagement is going on.

The other possibilities...

3) ie. - the TWC lead right leg to the inside of the opponent's lead left leg....or the lead right leg to the outside of the opponent's right leg....are a no-no in TWC...and both these positions could conceivably bring the TWC fighter to a much closer range than the first two I outlined....hence your remarks?!

But here's the caveat...there are certain instances when fighting in the cross leg position (2) or even breaking the rules of foot placement and doing (3) make perfect sense and ARE used in TWC...

but this part of the TWC game is/was rarely discussed/shown outside of private sessions/seminars back in the day and is usually not trained enough, imo...these days.

Agreed, allot of the surface things people see in books and tapes are only at a basic level. Once one starts to train in the art and has access to a qualified authority, the practitioner will learn more indepth strategies and tactics that are more or less unconventional in relation to the public view of the art.

Situations can vary immensely and the tactics Victor mentioned are just general guidelines to be looked at in a general way. When things happen in the heat of the moment then the unconventional things will come out to adapt to the situation. Long range and close range are all apart of the WC system, just that some are less knowledgeable of these areas or concentrate on just one aspect in their personalized teaching approach.

James