Hardest style to fight aginst?

[Shadow Skill]

In you expeience what MA style gave you the most trouble or you found most difficult to fight aginst. I haven't had the oppertunity to fight with anyone other then tkd people and other kicking styles.
A lot of people say the hardest people to fight is some one from your style. Is any one out there willing to admit some one gave them a run for their money, or do you guys dominate every fight you get in?

[shirkers1]

If we are talking about crossing hands or sparring I've played around with bjj, tkd, wc, jkd, Northern PM, boxers, tai boxers, MMA, and some other japanese styles that I can't spell and I'm sure I'm missing someone along the lines over the years. The most difficult was the Northern Pm guys because they would switch it up and knew what I was thinking. So then it comes down to who is the better fighter rather than style.

If we are talking about steet fighting. I don't think I've fought any one that trained in a certain style, maybe they did but nerves got to them and they just reverted to survival and tunnel vision. Although I've been up against some tough fighters. But they were just brawlers who wanted to hurt you and had been in enough fights to know how to throw down. Which when you're in a street fight a lot of it depends on if the person is ready, willing, and able to actually hurt someone.

Why do you ask?

[SevenStar]

mma and capoeira

[Shadow Skill]

I asked this question because A) I met some people in my life that talk like they never lost a fight or that they completely destroy any competion they have. yet they never want to spar with me, and if they do when I hit them in a friendly i got you manner or stop short with a strike they claim that it wouldn't work. So when I ask them if they wanna try it in real life (with power) they seem to decline my offer.
B) because there aren't a lot of kung fu schools in Omaha that I know about. It's mostly tkd, 1 wing chun school and 1 other school that teaches tai chi, bagua and xingyi (sp?)
C) the tournaments here are semi contact and the whole I would've hit you thing doesn't work for me. also in my openion aren't enough people to judge a form comp. with a kung fu style vs. the types of martial arts that are in my are and not be biest (sp?).

[Shadow Skill]

7* why is capoeira so challenging to fight?

[yu shan]

This sytle intrigues me. Why SevenStar do you think this is difficult to fight? I respect the Art, but they just seem so slow. Good with the leg work and pretty darn strange movement, but I do not see much at all with hands. I see too many gaps to take advantage of...jmo.

[sayloc]

If I am not mistaken the capoeira was an african style of fighting that was transported to south america with the slave trade.

I was told that since the slaves were not allowed to practice fighting that they had to incorporate the movements into thier native dance.

That may be why you notice more kicking techniques than punching or joint locking. The kicks would be much easier to hide.

It seems to me that a system that had a couple of hundred years being hidden in dance would lose much of its effectiveness.

Mantis practicioners at one point or another in history may have had to hide to practice their mantis, but the mantis they practiced in secret was still 100% fighting techniques. This allowed the style to maintain its structural integrity.

Just my opinion. Who knows most capoeira guys could probably kick my a$$.

Have a nice day

[EarthDragon]

This is a good question. I crossed hands with master Lin Mu How from Tao Yuan Taiwan head coach of the national taiji team.

I was more than impressed,and extremley humbled, every strike or attack I made was easily redireted, when I tried to redirect his attack he reversed it on me. When I tried to lock and trap he unlocked and again reversed.

After 10 good minutes of trying to enter his guard and at least hit him, I was breathing heavy and sweating. He laughed and said no.... you not breath easy? Must be relax all time when fighting.
This stuck with me and I always try to breath easy ou of my nose when playing, fighting or crossing hands.......... it is not easy!

So I would definatly have to say taiji when done correctly by a compedent master.

Interesting enough it is said that the hardest style to defend is your own. We dont take into consideration how to defend or attack someone that is attacking and defending the same way, so this gets very tricky

[EarthDragon]

Here is a picture of the man I am speaking of. For those of you in Asia would have surley heard of him. Maybe even in the US. He and his team came to the US and gave a wonderful demo at my school in 1996.

[EarthDragon]

Here is the senoir team, 50 years and up, each in taji

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yu shan
This sytle intrigues me. Why SevenStar do you think this is difficult to fight? I respect the Art, but they just seem so slow. Good with the leg work and pretty darn strange movement, but I do not see much at all with hands. I see too many gaps to take advantage of...jmo.

their basic stance movement - the jenga - is slow. the kicks are fast though, and come from unexpected angles. Also, what many people see on tv is a more flashy capoeira - I believe it's angola. there is a more combat style called regional (i always get angola and regional mixed up, but one is combat and one is more flashy). Anyway, the combat style has LOTS of infighting and takedowns. lots of knees and elbows too. You are right about the lack of hands - they are used for defense and transitioning through techniques where they touch the ground, from what I've seen. But, if you've ever watched a traditional thai boxer, they don't use alot of hands either, other than for defense. It's mainly kicks, knees and elbows.

The main thing they have going is deceptiveness - you just never know where something is coming from.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sayloc
If I am not mistaken the capoeira was an african style of fighting that was transported to south america with the slave trade.

I was told that since the slaves were not allowed to practice fighting that they had to incorporate the movements into thier native dance.

That may be why you notice more kicking techniques than punching or joint locking. The kicks would be much easier to hide.

It seems to me that a system that had a couple of hundred years being hidden in dance would lose much of its effectiveness.

Mantis practicioners at one point or another in history may have had to hide to practice their mantis, but the mantis they practiced in secret was still 100% fighting techniques. This allowed the style to maintain its structural integrity.

Just my opinion. Who knows most capoeira guys could probably kick my a$$.

Have a nice day

they're not really hidden - not the kicks, anyway. The takedowns and infighting were, but you gotta remember how long ago that was. They are no longer slaves and aren't restricted from training. You will learn the infighting. It's no different from how many tma schools teach forms - you learn the form then the application. these guys are taught aspects that aren't immediately obvious.

[phoenixdog]

The hardest style for a CMA fighter to fight against is western boxing. It's easier to fight CMA against CMA.Monkey is very difficult to fight against which is why monkey ground work with mantis hands is a very advanced method of fighting.At Nick Scrima's tournament in Orlando this year,William Chen brought a girl that did tai chi in boxing gloves for the demo. Next day,she cleaned house in sanshou using western boxing wearing the same gloves.

[isol8d]

Originally posted by phoenixdog
The hardest style for a CMA fighter to fight against is western boxing. It's easier to fight CMA against CMA.Monkey is very difficult to fight against which is why monkey ground work with mantis hands is a very advanced method of fighting.At Nick Scrima's tournament in Orlando this year,William Chen brought a girl that did tai chi in boxing gloves for the demo. Next day,she cleaned house in sanshou using western boxing wearing the same gloves.

Tiffany Chen (http://www.williamccchen.com/tiffanyfchen.htm)

[cmcgee]

Originally posted by SevenStar
But, if you've ever watched a traditional thai boxer, they don't use alot of hands either, other than for defense. It's mainly kicks, knees and elbows.



7* I trained thai for a few years before going into Mantis. I don't know who you have associated with, but you are mistaken to say that Muai Thai dosent use punches. If you can't or don't punch in a Thai fight your going to get your a$$ handed to you. Elbows and knees are thrown much less than a punch and only in close quarters.

[SevenStar]

dude... the punching associated with modern thai boxing is fairly new. since it became a sport in the 1920's and has since largely integrated with boxing, strikes like the hook and uppercut have become more popular. Prior to that, it was straight punches that were mainly used, and they were not preferred because they do less damage.

The reason elbows are thrown less in the US is because they aren't allowed. On occasions, they allow them in areas like vegas from what I hear, but 99 percent of the time, sanctions don't allow them.

other things, such as bobbing and weaving are also due to integration with western boxing. Thais didn't do it much because when you bob, you are bringing youself closer to your opponent's knee. There have been other integrations from western boxing as well.

that said, old school thai boxing did have some arcing punches, but they were hardly used. thai boxing also has spinning and hooking kicks, but once again, they are rarely used.

[SevenStar]

tiffany and max chen are monsters...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by phoenixdog
The hardest style for a CMA fighter to fight against is western boxing. It's easier to fight CMA against CMA.Monkey is very difficult to fight against which is why monkey ground work with mantis hands is a very advanced method of fighting.At Nick Scrima's tournament in Orlando this year,William Chen brought a girl that did tai chi in boxing gloves for the demo. Next day,she cleaned house in sanshou using western boxing wearing the same gloves.

other than watching tiffany, why did you pick boxing?

[Chief Fox]

This is a funny response. "Well if this was 1920 instead of 2004 I'd be right" LOL!


Originally posted by SevenStar
dude... the punching associated with modern thai boxing is fairly new. since it became a sport in the 1920's and has since largely integrated with boxing, strikes like the hook and uppercut have become more popular. Prior to that, it was straight punches that were mainly used, and they were not preferred because they do less damage.

The reason elbows are thrown less in the US is because they aren't allowed. On occasions, they allow them in areas like vegas from what I hear, but 99 percent of the time, sanctions don't allow them.

other things, such as bobbing and weaving are also due to integration with western boxing. Thais didn't do it much because when you bob, you are bringing youself closer to your opponent's knee. There have been other integrations from western boxing as well.

that said, old school thai boxing did have some arcing punches, but they were hardly used. thai boxing also has spinning and hooking kicks, but once again, they are rarely used.

[phoenixdog]

That's the girl.She could take Layla Ali.What a great fight that would be.We've all heard the saying "kick a boxer,box a kicker".You cannot a fight a skilled western boxer on the inside.Also agree with previous post about thai boxing, it looks like western boxing punching but it's not even close.Thai boxing punching is closer to mantis chop,stab,etc.

[cmcgee]

Originally posted by Chief Fox
This is a funny response. "Well if this was 1920 instead of 2004 I'd be right" LOL!

LOL, you beat me to it. I'm fully aware of the history. Unless you are 90 years old and trained back then(of course they wouldn't even consider teaching a non-asian then)

[FEELERSTRIKE]

No offence guys but having been trained as a boxer it cannot be compared to modern or tradional martial arts , in its own catagory it is fine but up against a martial artist it is totally outclassed .
Feet , knees , Elbows ,fists , sweeps , throws , takedowns etc the list goes on unfortunatly boxing is outclassed . Sorry .

[cmcgee]

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
No offence guys but having been trained as a boxer it cannot be compared to modern or tradional martial arts , in its own catagory it is fine but up against a martial artist it is totally outclassed .
Feet , knees , Elbows ,fists , sweeps , throws , takedowns etc the list goes on unfortunatly boxing is outclassed . Sorry .

I agree with you. It's more of sport fighting than anything else.

[shirkers1]

I agree somewhat to what feelerstrike says. Now a boxer will have the upper hand on most fighters because they are strikers. But when you stay out of punching range or get in to trapping range they are out of their element.

Being that I was a boxer before I started training mantis I had to stop my boxing because the mantis was becoming ingrained in my movements. So I was starting to switch my footwork and other things were starting to come out when I was fighting, etc. So I was too busy trying to think of what I wasn't allowed to do in the ring, so I gave it up and stuck with mantis. The boxer training I apply to my mantis still because it's still close to the mindset of mantis and movements without taking away from the style.

Now with that said, a mantis practitioner who has a boxing background is all that much more stronger in the striking range. He knows how to close fight a lot better than the average mantis practitioner. Evading strikes are more integral in boxing than the average mantis training. In general all styles have something to offer and if trained right are strong in that aspect. The trick is finding a style that covers the majority of those bases if not all of them. For me it is northern mantis.

I've seen quite a few boxers in street fights in my time, it boiled down to just good fighters. Style didn't really have a deciding factor in the outcomes. Hell Michael carbohal (spelling) was here at a local bar talking big game a few days ago and got knocked out with one punch by some random guy at the bar and he's a very good boxer. So we all have it comming. It's just a matter of being on top of your game and staying out of trouble. :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1

I've seen quite a few boxers in street fights in my time, it boiled down to just good fighters. Style didn't really have a deciding factor in the outcomes.

It seems to be a rare occasion that we agree, but this is one of them.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
No offence guys but having been trained as a boxer it cannot be compared to modern or tradional martial arts , in its own catagory it is fine but up against a martial artist it is totally outclassed .
Feet , knees , Elbows ,fists , sweeps , throws , takedowns etc the list goes on unfortunatly boxing is outclassed . Sorry .

disagree. what you train isn't as important as the training methods. theoretically, the one with more tools will win, but realistically, that's not always the case.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cmcgee
LOL, you beat me to it. I'm fully aware of the history. Unless you are 90 years old and trained back then(of course they wouldn't even consider teaching a non-asian then)

good, glad you're aware. Now, watching thai boxing now, how prevalent are hook and uppercut punches among thais?

[phoenixdog]

The way master chai teaches thai boxing,uppercuts are non-existent and the hook is very different from the western boxing hook.Hooks are closer in western boxing,more body.Look at any Tyson fight.Mosley/Wright 2,lost because sugar shane could not hook.

[SevenStar]

exactly.

With american thai boxers, you tend to see more of the western boxing influence, but with thais, you generally don't see that, IME.

[CHAZ]

I have to agree, that boxing is one of the most difficullt arts to fight against.
Has anyone heard of the story about a fight that took place on a U.S warship some years ago.
Well on this ship you had your ordinary navy seaman and a group of special forces(Can't remember if they were SEAL's), both groups just did not get on. The sailors thought the special forces guys just too full of them selfs and that they looked down on them, while the special forces guys thought they didn't get the respect they deserved. Well as it happend one of the special forces guys was an unarmed combat instructor and a martial artist who got into an argument with one of the cooks who happend to be a boxer. Well a fight broke out and the boxer just totally creamed the special forces guy, he totally destroyed him, even to this day people still talk about the time a cook beat up a special forces dude.
The moral of this story its not the art that wins a fight but the fighter be he martial artist or boxer.

[unixfudotnet]

definitely taijiquan. then again, i have no crossed that many paths and am never relaxed enough as i should be... but who is? ;) the masters, i suppose.

even sigung says that his teacher tells him to relax. a lifelong process :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by CHAZ
The moral of this story its not the art that wins a fight but the fighter be he martial artist or boxer.

or that it's neither the art nor the fighter, but the training methods...

[Ironwind]

The hardest sparring session that I have been in was with clan VP who trained in eagle claw. It was as if he was everywhere I located myself and every part of my body had a target even when defending he made me open myself to attack. He manipulated my wrist but I escaped everytime. In the end my wrist almost refused to stay still. Why'd he beat me so bad.