phoenixdog's post on seperate issue.

[BeiTangLang]

phoenixdog
Junior Member

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: saint marys,ga
Posts: 2
southern or northern
What is the similarity between wah lum pai and choy lay fut?

[yu shan]

I am certain of one thing, Master Chan and the late Master Lee Kwoon Hung were KF brothers. It was acceptable for WL students to cross-train with Master Lee.

The southern influence in WL has been examined here before. An interesting history in WL! I have been told :rolleyes: that MC was a merchant in the shipping business. There he traded/trained with many southern kung fu men. Might explain MC`s very long list of hand forms and weapons forms.

To me, there still seems to be a grey area between the times with LKS, CWC and Master Chan. Alot of WL`s history seems to have slipped thru the cracks.

One thing I`d like to do in the future is, post a clip of WL`s Big Mantis form. There is proof from WL`ers and a KF Uncle of mine that BM is WL`s Beng Bu. I`ll get with Oso and see what we can do about getting this up. I am very curious to here what you guys have to say.

[sayloc]

yu shan

just do a search on big mantis on this forum and you will get alot of good info on this form

have a good day

[phoenixdog]

Thanks for the search reference. Lots of good discussion.One thought that occurs to me is that a LKS lineage in vietnam may not have survived the war.

[yu shan]

Everyone knows there is a southern influence in Wah Lum. And I have been told by a reputable source that WL does favor a CLF flavor. I know the forms and I have to agree that they do have alot of what I have seen in CLF. I`m not going to say this is a bad thing, it is just part of there history. My question is, why does Wah Lum Mantis look so differant from Qishing Meiwa etc.

I do like Wah Lum Little Mantis Form.

No one ever speaks of the Vietnam branch of WL, please continue phoenixdog. If not here, send me a pm.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm currently of the opinion that the NPM in WL is more principles, concepts and individual techniques rather than whole sets. What I haven't figured out is the percentage of NPM in WL. Since PM is secondary in the full name of the style I would assume a lesser percentage although the more I research it the more I question that assumption. So far the sets I've seen with common names are different (Fan Che, Xiao Fan Che, Big Mantis/Bung Bo). WL also has Luan Jie but according to MC it's different. I don't know the WL name for it. WL also has Mantis Exits Cave although I haven't seen this one yet.

I also think any similarity to CLF is due to an indirect link. Both are influenced by other northern styles rather than directly influencing each other. It's the common moves and flavor of other northern styles that they both contain (plus the Chan Pui - Lee Koon Hung friendship) that prompts the speculation of direct influence. Consider that Wai Hong and Chan Pui are also very close friends (the old HK group) yet nobody claims a Fu Jow influence.

yu shan
Interesting theory about picking up sets as a merchant seaman but according to Master Chan he didn't know a lot of forms when he arrived here. BTW, there's a grey area in my life that hopefully slipped through the cracks and stays there. Not everyone wants their life to be an open book. :-)

On the Big Mantis/Bung Bo issue the name must have changed in the early days (definitely before moving to Florida) as I haven't found anyone who remembers calling it Bung Bo. I look forward to seeing the clip and the subsequent analysis and discussions. Better yet I'd like to see the tape 18elders has!

Since I have limited experience with CLF (Chan and Futsan branches of Hung Sing) I can't give a detailed comparison but I do find it comfortable and fairly easy to pick up although some of it definitely feels foreign. I don't see the similarities that others have found. The Yin Chin and Ching Ping from Master Lu Jinhai feels closer to WL than the CLF does.

[sayloc]

If I am not mistaken many mantis schools teach 7 star, plum flower, 8 step and other mantis styles as separate systems within thier school. I also think that many of these same schools teach many long fist forms such as the tan tui sets and gung li kuen as fundamental sets to build strenth before moving on to the mantis systems, but these are kept separate from the mantis techniuqes.

If you look at the wl lum forms you will see the tan tui influence along with the mantis techniques mixed in the same form. (The mantis techniques may look different than what you are used to but if you practice mantis there is no denying that they are in there).

I think that instead of teaching the long fist then a mantis style that whoever developed wl just combined the long fist fundamentals with his or her particular mantis syle into one system instead of teaching it separatly.

This is only a general idea since there is only so much that can be discussed over a forum.

As far as southern, I can definatly see a southern influence but not so much clf. I think the wl master is from southern china. Not that hard to figure out is it? Come on guys think.

Yushan, You should work your old wl bung bo right next to your new version, I mean really tear them down and I think you will be very surprised at how close the two forms really are. If you want more info PM.

Of course I dont know much about either system so take it for what it is worth.

Have a good day

[yu shan]

I was hoping you would contribute to this thread. You are a respected source of information for Wah Lum.

Has anyone researched the Tan Tui of WL? There is a 12 or (14) roads exercises. These seem to be very popular and well known. But WL does not have these in there arsenal. If these exercises are so much a part of TT, I wonder why WL does not have them.

HLL, can you do some digging on the Vietnam lineage?

I know what you mean about what 18 Elders has on tape, differant versions of Big Mantis!? (TF)

[yu shan]

Sayloc

Will do, one of my projects is to compare WL Big Mantis and the Seven Star Beng Bu form I know. Granted the SS BB I have has Shr ZhengZhong`s flavor. We shall see.

It is all good!

[Tainan Mantis]

Big Mantis was called Bengbu in the old WL days.

This was confirmed by my Shifu Art D who studied WL When Master Chan was still up North.

The small Beng Bu in Taiwan has some characterisctics in common with the WL version that are not seen in the 7* version.

[18elders]

The southern influence from what i can gather was more from master chan and chan wan ching .
Lee kwan shan taught a few more than 10 forms, wah lum has way more than that now. MC has stated he didn't know many forms when he got here so the forms in their system now are not original forms from LKS.
When LKS died, wah lum took 2 different dirctions, chan wan ching(master chans lineage) and another which there are others teaching that lineage but good luck finding them!!
I know of 2 outside of MC branch, one is in florida also.
Why beng bu changed to big mantis i am not sure, Art D said it was called beng bu when he was learning but MC changed it.
As for the jut sow mantis, i am not sure about that.
A friend of mine(he took wah lum) used to rent an apartment to a chinese guy. One day he went to get the rent and he was wearing his wah lum t-shirt. the guy asked him about it and he told him it was jut sow mantis . The guy asked him to do some forms for him so he did. He said it was not jut sow(altough my friend did not know big mantis to show him). It turned out this guy was from the mainland and was a jut sow master. He also
was at one time the body guard for the president of vietnam.
He showed my friend some stuff he had on video and started to train him a little bit but then the guy moved.
My friend said he was awesome though, i never got to meet him before he moved so i lost out and trying to get some info.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18elders
"MC has stated he didn't know many forms when he got here so the forms in their system now are not original forms from LKS."

Not necessarily. To confuse the issue even more, it's my understanding that MC has received more material from his sihings (mostly uncles I believe) during his trips to China over the years. Whether this material is direct from LKS is unknown. Also, he has an unknown number of manuscripts (from where???) that could also be the source of the added sets. These manuscripts could have come from other students of LKS.

As an example, I've been told that LKS produced a Dim Mak manual and that MC purchased it after having arrived in this country. Who knows how much he has collected from LKS students who scattered after his death.


As a side note, most systems grow over the years and Master Chan is the one responsible for building a style that most likely would have died out otherwise. Being the undisputed Grandmaster it's ultimately his decision whether or not to add to the core as taught by Lee Kwan Shan.

Unfortunately (for me at least) I still believe the core (and best) is reserved for the highest levels and family. I know I'll never get any of it.

BTW, interesting story. At least it validates the existence of Jut Sow PM as I'v heard some claim there's no such thing.

[sayloc]

hua lin

thats to bad about not getting the top shelf stuff.

Do you mind if I ask what entices you to stay with the system?

[mantis108]

This is most unfortunate and disheartening.

With all due respects, holding out is not good for any MA system. I don't believe that there isn't any excuse nor justification for that type of behavor. I could understand proliferation of forms for making a living (not that I would except it as status quo). I could understand the need for evolving (resulting in changing or proliferating of forms). Hack, I am all for a vibrant CMA community. But holding out is most unacceptable.

Personally, I believe the "secret" if any should be in the basics not the super duper might advance form(s). If CMA folks don't get that motion, timing and energy is the real core of any MA, we will all be lost wether 1 form or 10,000 forms. These attributes can easily be taught within the basics. There is no secret just details (in the sense of chores as well.)

You display utmost loyality towards your teacher but I believe that respect should be both ways. I am also curious why would you stay. It is an individual chocie, which is tough to uphold and I respect that. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[JustChecking]

Originally posted by sayloc
hua lin

thats to bad about not getting the top shelf stuff.

Do you mind if I ask what entices you to stay with the system?

Indeed... why is that? Why not go somewhere even if it's a stretch to make for training, where you won't get a boot to the teeth for your dedication & loyalty to the teacher or the system??

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Good question. Without analyzing too deeply here's the quick answer.

First off it's only my belief that the best is at the top and reserved for just a few. There are others who disagree.

I don't switch sides easily.

I have a large investment in time and money in it.

I like it and it seems to fit me well.

I got tired of starting over at each new school so I wanted to stick it out in one place and I happened to move to central Florida and the Temple was the best option.

At 50 years old I don't have the patience to spend years getting to the good stuff that I probably won't be able to do when I finally learn it. Pretty much every school I ever went to re-taught me how to punch. (Example: I've had 3 different Masters show me 3 different ways of doing twisted stance with 3 very good reasons yet contradict each other.) The way I move is ingrained from years of Kenpo and Wah Lum and it's hard as hell to change now even if I do agree with the changes (and I'm pretty set in my ways too). I don't bang, I deflect. Why bust up my arms when I can just avoid or deflect.

I haven't mastered what I've been taught and I believe there's more there than some people seem to think.

I'm unemployed and can't afford to train anywhere else. If anyone wants to share what they invested heavily in for free I'll take it.

And I don't mean to be all negative or anything but I have a history of not fitting in anywhere. Guess it's just me but I really don't expect things to be much different no matter where I go. I'm used to it so it doesn't bother me that much.

[Siuhoimoon]

That´s an interesting thread indeed!

Good posts from everybody!

18elders, can you tell us more about the 2 others wahlum lineages that you mencioned? I am very curious about it, so I´ve always though that gm chan was the only wahlum master that came to the US. PM me if you prefer.

About bengbu X big mantis, at the student´s handbook there´s a list of wl forms, both in english and chinese characters. The chinese name (characters) for big mantis is bengbu. I just don´t know why gm chan started to call it that way instead of its original name....

Does anybody here know if there´s any other wl form that had its name changed? Maybe Tainan, 18elders, Hualinlaoshi? :)

[phoenixdog]

die huen choy in WL seems identical to sow chui in CLF with the exception that WL uses the mantis forearm and CLF will use front,back,forearm,etc.Knockout strike in WL seems very similar to knockout strike in CLF. Coincidence?

[bigdoing]

Two of my kung fu brothers now used to train in wah lum, both for at least five years....now they are training in Familly Style CLF..

From seeing some of there forms and the biggest key...sparring with them.....i dont see that much of an influence at all....maybee a few motions but all styles share some connection it seems...

very different power generation and theroy....
....both guys are very good fighters also......

[phoenixdog]

After exploring both on a heavy bag,I think you're right.The power generation is different.Similarites are only a coincidence.CLF is like a baseball bat and mantis is like hammer with a bad vibration.