choosing a style- hung gar vs wing chun

[kwesi]

In my area there are a couple of experienced masters. One offers a "modified for street combat" wing chun, and the other offers traditional hung gar. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each, and what input can anyone give me to help me choose? Wing chun is offered in 2 hour classes twice a week and hung gar is offered for 2 hour classes 4 times a week and both are the same price. Also, what would you say is advantages/disadvantages do chinese kung fu have over Japanese styles. I know it's a lot of different questions but I have been struggling with choosing an art form and really need some input. Thanks

[red5angel]

what are you looking to get out of it?

Wingchun is a good close in combat style, but you have to watch the politics. Stay away from that and you should be fine. I don't know a whole lot about hung gar. The theory behind wingchun is that they use power generation through good structure and precision to overcome strength and size.
however, size does matter so don't get too sucked into the idea that a tiny person can use wingchun to overcome a larger stronger person just by the benefit of knowing wingchun. It's a solid art for hand work, the kicking is conservative but sensible. The foot work is more static then some other arts, but it works with the underlying principles.
It's weaknesses? Footwork could be better. Some families of wingchun practice more loose footwork. Most people don't practice it precise enough to really get it's benefits. It also takes a long time to really get down, although the basics come quickly. It's a "shallow" art in that it doesn't have hundreds of forms and techniques, but that's also an advantage, it's simple and stright to the point. I consider it a sensible self defense art.

[kwesi]

anyone with input on Hung Gar?

[SevenStar]

have you visited any of these schools yet?

[red5angel]

sevie has a good point, check out both the schools and see what you like.

[Waxwood rod]

Hung gar is a harder style, harder meaning more forceful or external. Low stance training is required in hung gar, which can be awkward, though will benefit leg strength. Hung gar uses the whole body for power with stance shifting and stong blocks and punches. I studied Hung Gar for about a year and then my kung fu movie fantasies cleared up. Its a cool style and will make you stronger, but for fighting its not as practical as others, especially for beginers. hung Gar is more of a classic southern Shaolin style that you often see in movies, where Wing Chun is compact and not terribly exciting to look at, though it has proven its effectiveness in some cases.

[kwesi]

yeah i checked them out, but i havn't seen the actual classes, only a demo by a wing chun student... What I want to get out of studying the martial arts is improved fitness, flexibility, and especially improved faster reflexes. I want to be able to fight and move like in the Kung fu movies. My true goal is to eventually be a ninja... but they don't have schools for that where I live. on a side note, though the wing chun instructer studied for three years under "the American Ninja" I didn't know who this was though when the student mentioned it.

[Waxwood rod]

What are your goals as a ninja? I hear the wages have totally dropped off and a lot of them are on welfare.

[SevenStar]

how old are you?

[Waxwood rod]

31

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
Low stance training is required in hung gar, which can be awkward, though will benefit leg strength.

strength, or endurance?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
31

not you...

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by SevenStar
not you...

LOL oh man.

[Waxwood rod]

I was being silly

[red5angel]

lol, I thought I smelled troll

[Hermes3X]

the idea that hung gar is not good for fighting is just silly. Of course it's not good for beginners to fight with hung gar, it is an art, you do have to learn how to use the style.

I personally would go with hung gar (although this would depend on a couple of things that I'll focus on shortly) over wing chun for a couple of reasons

1. you have more adaptability and a better foundation with hung gar. The hardening and horse training you do in hung gar will always help you out in any style that you do if you decide against hung gar in the long run.

2. Hung Gar is a little bit more flexible in its tactics than wing chun. Wing Chun is a good center line system - not as good as southern mantis in my opinion, but still good. The only problem with center line systems is that they have to adopt outside styles when confronted with circular or triangular fighting theories. hung gar will teach you a good bit of fighting tactics - the domination of space, the creation of a defensive "area", the use of mobility against an opponent, attacks from oblique angles, etc - that from my understanding wing chun will not be able to give you

3. Most wing chun in the states (I am assuming you are in the us) is so watered down as to be worthless.

4. Hung gar will teach you some very useful "internal" aspects of kung fu that you won't pick up from wing chun. I find it to be a more complete system (depending of course on your teacher) than wing chun

really it all comes down to the teacher - if you just get along better with one fella, by all means go with him and adapt yourself to the style. Learn one style well and you can do anything with it, including turning Wing chun a drunken monkey style (....)

Some advice on teachers -

if the school only does forms, run - they suck
if the school mostly does drills, you're set. go with them
if the school proudly says that they don't spar, run - they suck
if the school has Only little kids, run
if the school is located in a garage, under a bridge, or in a parking lot, TRAIN WITH THESE PEOPLE!!
All schools basically focus on one of three goals winning at wushu, winning at tournament sparring, or winning "in the street" Of the three winning in the street is the hardest to prove and is generally only believable if your sifu is chinese and, even then, if he's contemporary shaolin, he's probably crap when it comes to fighting.

well, I;ve probably ****ed off plenty of folks around here so I'll quit now

[red5angel]

who said it wasn't good for fighting?

[Hermes3X]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
Hung gar is a harder style, harder meaning more forceful or external. Low stance training is required in hung gar, which can be awkward, though will benefit leg strength. Hung gar uses the whole body for power with stance shifting and stong blocks and punches. I studied Hung Gar for about a year and then my kung fu movie fantasies cleared up. Its a cool style and will make you stronger, but for fighting its not as practical as others, especially for beginers. hung Gar is more of a classic southern Shaolin style that you often see in movies, where Wing Chun is compact and not terribly exciting to look at, though it has proven its effectiveness in some cases.

"Who said it wasn't good for fighting" I direct you to waxwood rod's post

[red5angel]

ok, I don't know hung gar as well but I suspect it would be just fine for fighting if one applied oneself.

[Waxwood rod]

i said it wasn't as practical as other styles, especially for beginers. Do you honestly feel that Hung Gar is the most practical fighting style? I never implied it was bad.

[kwesi]

Originally posted by Hermes3X
All schools basically focus on one of three goals winning at wushu, winning at tournament sparring, or winning "in the street" Of the three winning in the street is the hardest to prove and is generally only believable if your sifu is chinese and, even then, if he's contemporary shaolin, he's probably crap when it comes to fighting.

well, I;ve probably ****ed off plenty of folks around here so I'll quit now

The hung gar sifu says his teaching is focused solely on the art and none of the things you mentioned. His website seems to back that up too. his website (http://www.allabouttheart.com)



ohh and i'm 20 by the way and when I say ninja I don't mean professionally, only skill wise.

[SevenStar]

that's not the right url...

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
i said it wasn't as practical as other styles, especially for beginers. Do you honestly feel that Hung Gar is the most practical fighting style? I never implied it was bad.

Ever feel like you put your foot in your mouth?:eek:

HG is as practical as WC.
It all depends on two factors:
1) who you train with
2) (most importantly) how you train

[kwesi]

sorry heres the website

allabouttheart.com (http://allabouttheart.com)

[kwesi]

how does kung fu compare to kenpo?

[Waxwood rod]

hi SiuHung, I never said Hung Ga was more practical than Wing Chun, in fact I never said wing chun was practical, ok hoof in mouth.

[omarthefish]

A couple red flags on the hung gar school.

Taken from Sifu Mike's history here:http://www.allabouttheart.com/About%20Mike.htm


-35 years of Martial Arts training.
-13 Years as a Sifu - Kung Fu instructor.
-Studied under Grand Master Bucksam Kong in Hung Gar Kung Fu.
-Studied under Grand Master Kam Yuen in Praying Mantis Kung Fu and T'ai Chi Ch'uan

Grandmaster *cough* *cough* Bucksam Kong? He's not even the top Hung Gar guy in the US. The only one anyone should be calling "grandmaster" these days...if you MUST use that absurd title...is Lum Jo. He ain't dead yet.

Not to mention I don't like the implication that he trained Hung Gar for 35 years, although he simply says "martial arts".

He also says he trained with Kong Sisuk, in Hong Kong....but he never taught in Hong Kong to my knowledge. His school has been in LA since the 70's and before that he was in Hawaii. Bucksam Kong's own web page says he came to Hawaii in 1961. So did Sifu Mike study with a pre-pubescent Bucksam Kong in the 50's?

...just checked the lineage page.

Lum Jo--->Lum Chun Fai--->Lum Chun Sing--->Bucksam Kong--->Donald Hamby--->Mike Marshal.

:confused:

Maybe it was just poor web design and he couldn't do lateral branches ut last I checked Lam Chun Sing learned directly from his father Lam Jo and not from his older brother Lum Chun Fai. Same thing for Buk Sam Kong. And with this Donald Hamby guy in between it means that I am Sifu Mike's Sisuk!!! :D

[TAO YIN]

Kwesi,

Check these places out and see which place you like best. Talk to the teachers. See what skills they have. If either teacher spouts off too much tell and not enough show, fly away, fly, fly. If you cannot decide, why not try both? Both "styles" are good. Both "styles" are effective. Either way, or both, you will get out what you put in if you have proper instruction.

Anyways, Kung Fu is a martial art, Kempo is a martial art. They don't compare. People do.

Have fun,

Tao

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
hi SiuHung, I never said Hung Ga was more practical than Wing Chun, in fact I never said wing chun was practical, ok hoof in mouth.

LOL
No probs man.

[Shaolinlueb]

hung gar is fun and more interesting i think then wingchun. even though hung gar probably takes a lot more practice to become a fighter. or as lkfmdc says jsut do san da. :D

[Nick Forrer]

Puts troll hat on...


As a general rule the flashier and more 'kung fu' a style looks the less practical it is. Wing chun is not flashy and does not look very 'kung fu'. Ergo it is practical. It also doesnt contain/rely on esoteric concepts like chi, dim mak, iron body etc.

Lots of kung fu styles (more so the northern ones) do long forms with lots of acrobatic moves in them - however when they spar/fight all you see is (often but not always) bad kick boxing. Wing chun players in contrast do or should fight as they train - you see how the forms and the actions they contain correspond directly to fighting.

takes troll hat off......

[TAO YIN]

Actually, Wing Chun is loaded with dim ma/dim yuet applications.

[Waxwood rod]

So is knitting.

[Brad]

which is equally effective :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
I studied Hung Gar for about a year and then my kung fu movie fantasies cleared up. Its a cool style and will make you stronger, but for fighting its not as practical as others, especially for beginers. Onassis Parungao used Hung Gar in UFC 7 and won.

[Ray Pina]

I've studied both. Go with the Wing Chun!

Wing Chun will teach you sticking, trapping and center line theory. These skills can later be taken to another system and will help.

Also, Wing Chun has very few forms (and the forms it has are more structure based than fighting invisible foes) compared to Hung Gar. Hung Gar's training will make you strong but I think it's premise is wrong. It's too against even though it insists it has internal at a higher level and soft and hard. A lot of the element strikes, a lot of the blocks, are completely force against force.

If you're 195lbs+ and the school trains realisticly, then maybe it will work for you. But if I had the choice to train in one of these styles for three years I'd choose WC every time.

[Waxwood rod]

"Onassis Parungao used Hung Gar in UFC 7 and won."

was he a beginer? Are you suggesting HUng gar is the most practical art to study for becoming a ninja?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Waxwood rod
Are you suggesting HUng gar is the most practical art to study for becoming a ninja? Yes. It is well documented that Wong Fei Hung totally flipped out and killed people. And I believe he was a mammal, too, but I could be wrong about that point.

[Ray Pina]

Wong Fe Hung lived in the south. He was one of the better village boxers, a head hick.

You don't even hear of Hung Gar or Wing Chun in the North, where both Taiji and Ba Gua made its way into Royal service. Hung Gar = old, uneducated farmer technology .... just thought I'd be really un-PC for a sec.;)

[MasterKiller]

A handful of scruffy American farmers beat the elite English infantry one time.

[Ray Pina]

Live in the now man. Live in the now.:D

[Mutant]

if you aspire to be a 'ninja' and look like they do in the kung fu movies, then go with the hung gar school, as it appears to cater to the fantasy-camp crowd.

[mok]

I' ve been doing Hung Gar for the past 6 yrs, and I'm only now starting to become comfortable & express the style properly, and that's not even everyday! ;]

If I had been doing Wing Chun it would probably have taKen less than half this time to feel "competent".


HOWEVER, while it's much quicker to become effective at Wing Chun than Hung Gar, Hung Gar is a much more complete/varied art. I am confident that after 6yrs of everything else being equal, the HG stylist will be able to dominate the WC guy. Case-in-point: pretty much every concept within Wing Chun is contained within Hung Gar - but the system also contains so much more stuff that it's normal it takes a while to master.

Wing Chun does great as a direct center-line system. It IS very very effective against hit & run styles. But Hung Gar's strength, like northern preying mantis is in the bridging - trapping/controlling the opponent. WC has great sensitivity drills but relies on leaking and does not assume an opponent grabbing you, reeling you in, & busting your elbow. & Why would it? WC guys don't play it this way - right?

For example let's look at - bong sau:

In WC the bong sau is a transition - at best it is a leaking strike/block in between something else. In Hung Gar the bong sau comes from a much wider base, and typically reverses directly to a tiger-claw grab/pull. So now the opponent is off balance, getting pushed or pulled, and the elbow is exposed, or the ribs, or the throat, and this is where things get interesting... You could jab at someone all day and not get anywhere. But if you how/where to finish - that is what matters.

Even without hands - a little bit of "leg bridging" from HG's famed "horse" is probably enough to send a narrow wing chun stance toppling. But one can see how bridging and strong stances require both strength as well as sensitivity and softness. And building both unfortunately requires alot of time.

I really wince when I hear those who say strength is irrelevant. That's why there's weight classes - even in bjj or judo. Maybe in point fighting it doesn't matter??? - LOL.

A Northen Mantis friend once told there are 2 ways to win: a) you can win using superior technique ... or b) you can just win. The moral of the story is to remember that (a) does not preclude (b)... (or vis versa) ;]


Aplogies if I sound offensive of WC - it is a highly effective though highly specialized art. But it just doesn't have the depth of Hung Kuen. If you plan on making this a lifelong study - IMHO you'll get alot more mileage out of HG than wing chun. But if you want to "kick-ass" quick - go for Wing Chun - you can always change styles later ;]



Cheers,


Matt

[Ray Pina]

Good points. There certainly is more in HG than WC, but I question a lot of its validity in today's world.

I'm just a little prejudice when it comes to Hung Gar. Things like the iron rings around the arms and what not .... that's already training the mind to be against. The heavy tension breathing, also bringing unneeded tension into the body and movement unnessarily. This eats up oxygen and makes one stiff in mind and movement.

I do recognize the importance of strenght. But when you live and die by it ...... you the strongest guy in the world? you getting younger or older?

Otherwise we don't need to fight. You lift some weights and step on the scale. If you lift more than me and weight more than me, you win.

I don't call it self defense when I beat up my landlord's son when we're training. I call it self defense when I match up with guys who have 45lbs.+ on me. No doubt they are stronger. Even if I match them, draw them, that means my technique is better already.

[mok]

Good points EvolutionFist...

Actually I'm only 5-6, and really light (under 140 lbs - soaking wet). And yes I'll take skill over strength any day - for precisely the same reasons you gave!

However I can say this - I am both more skilled and more strong today than when I started 6 yrs ago. And believe it or not, yes those "dynamic tension" exercises have alot to do with it - but even those are not so much about using strength as knowing how to reserve it. Thus "Dynamic Tension" is really a big misnomer because it's actually more about "softness" than hardness - except in the joints/ligaments -which is where you want that tension - but NOT in the muscles per se. The paradox is that you can't really tell a beginner to be "soft" and expect the right amount of tension until they've done it "hard" often enough to be able to feel the difference! Hard and not hard, soft and not soft, round and not round. All gung fu - wing chun included - devellops this, but I agree that the "method" used to do so in Hung can seem pretty hard-assed (if not downright ass-backwards) to the outside observer...


Best regards,


Matt

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by mok
HOWEVER, while it's much quicker to become effective at Wing Chun than Hung Gar, Hung Gar is a much more complete/varied art.

The english alphabet only contains 26 letters and yet all of shakespeares works are written in it.

There are only 10 Arab/hindu numerals and yet they are (practically) all mathematics requires.

As Mr Occam pointed out many moons ago....it is vain to do with many what can be done with a few.

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by mok

HOWEVER, while it's much quicker to become effective at Wing Chun than Hung Gar, Hung Gar is a much more complete/varied art. I am confident that after 6yrs of everything else being equal, the HG stylist will be able to dominate the WC guy. Case-in-point: pretty much every concept within Wing Chun is contained within Hung Gar - but the system also contains so much more stuff that it's normal it takes a while to master.


Distance takes away the obvious response to this....lets go :D


Wing Chun does great as a direct center-line system. It IS very very effective against hit & run styles. But Hung Gar's strength, like northern preying mantis is in the bridging - trapping/controlling the opponent. WC has great sensitivity drills but relies on leaking and does not assume an opponent grabbing you, reeling you in, & busting your elbow. & Why would it? WC guys don't play it this way - right?

nope, never (hehheheheh) ;)



For example let's look at - bong sau:

In WC the bong sau is a transition - at best it is a leaking strike/block in between something else. In Hung Gar the bong sau comes from a much wider base, and typically reverses directly to a tiger-claw grab/pull. So now the opponent is off balance, getting pushed or pulled, and the elbow is exposed, or the ribs, or the throat, and this is where things get interesting... You could jab at someone all day and not get anywhere. But if you how/where to finish - that is what matters.

All movements are trasition in WC. Thats why its movement, from one point to another to another till the job is done.

As for your bong sau example of the few things I train for just that hapening is called "bok Jarn" you grab that elbow and pull, I drop my wrist down violently and step forward, striking you with my shoulder to disbalance you and give me back control of the center.


Even without hands - a little bit of "leg bridging" from HG's famed "horse" is probably enough to send a narrow wing chun stance toppling. But one can see how bridging and strong stances require both strength as well as sensitivity and softness. And building both unfortunately requires alot of time.


Chi gerk anyone?



Aplogies if I sound offensive of WC - it is a highly effective though highly specialized art. But it just doesn't have the depth of Hung Kuen. If you plan on making this a lifelong study - IMHO you'll get alot more mileage out of HG than wing chun. But if you want to "kick-ass" quick - go for Wing Chun - you can always change styles later ;]


no offense taken! My Sifu started his long road to WC (heehee) with hung gar, its good stuff. I would sugest you look more into WC if you wish to see depth, it is there, more does not imply deeper, less does not imply shallowness, there is profundity in absense as much as pressence.

So that this is not a hijack of the question......if you really wanna be a nija, train ninjitsu. If you wanna leaarn Kung Fu, check out both schools, see a class or two then decide.

[old jong]

Originally posted by kwesi
In my area there are a couple of experienced masters. One offers a "modified for street combat" wing chun, and the other offers traditional hung gar. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each, and what input can anyone give me to help me choose? Wing chun is offered in 2 hour classes twice a week and hung gar is offered for 2 hour classes 4 times a week and both are the same price. Also, what would you say is advantages/disadvantages do chinese kung fu have over Japanese styles. I know it's a lot of different questions but I have been struggling with choosing an art form and really need some input. Thanks

"Modified for street combat" Wing Chun?...Go to the Hung Gar place!...Good (insert any style here) is always better than some personal adaptation based on Wing Chun.

[mok]

hehehehe ... I know next to nothing of WC - so I'll admit to having a lot to learn. - my intent was not to put down WC but to promote HG (or rather to dispell some misconceptions about it) but i got abit carried away.. :D

OM - you are a gentleman... Maybe one day after HG I'll start some wing chun? who knows...

:D

[Mutant]

Originally posted by mok


WC has great sensitivity drills but relies on leaking and does not assume an opponent grabbing you, reeling you in, & busting your elbow. & Why would it? WC guys don't play it this way - right?



wrong, actually. wing chun does train against grabbing/seizing and works well as anti-chin na. it wouldn't be so easy to apply what youre suggesting. nor would it be out of the realm of what a wing chun player would expect.

i do, however, appreciate your enthusiasm for your art and agree with some of the things that youre saying. there is a lot of snake and crane in wing chun and in the 'turning style' wing chun that i studied there was much that reminded me of dragon, as well. i think there is more in common between wing chun and hung ga and other shaolin based arts than a lot of people realize, regardless of how the styles are stereotyped. that is, once you get past all the fluff.

they have a totally different format and approach to learning some of the same materials. i agree that hung gar has a lot more and varied material than wing chun. whether that makes one better or worse than the other becomes a personal preference of what one is looking for in their training, and possibly personality and body type.

btw, i'm not a 'wing chun guy', i did about 4 years of wu xing chuan/s. 5-animals (similar to hung gar) before 4 years of wing chun, and moved on from there. enjoyed and got a lot out of both styles.

[old jong]

Originally posted by mok



Aplogies if I sound offensive of WC - it is a highly effective though highly specialized art. But it just doesn't have the depth of Hung Kuen. If you plan on making this a lifelong study - IMHO you'll get alot more mileage out of HG than wing chun. But if you want to "kick-ass" quick - go for Wing Chun - you can always change styles later ;]



Cheers,


Matt

You don't sound "offensive" but maybe a little ignorant!...I agree that Wing Chun can provide for some "Kick-ass" quick but this depends greatly on the practitioner. It is a urban myth in reality.
Wing Chun needs to be studied in depth for many years ,like any other serious martial art to be fully understood; just like Hung Gar.It's simplicity is often misunderstood for lack of depth as you implied. It is a common misunderstanding.

I see you are in Montreal! Feel free to visit me at my school. ;)

[Hermes3X]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Yes. It is well documented that Wong Fei Hung totally flipped out and killed people. And I believe he was a mammal, too, but I could be wrong about that point.

I do know that in fact Wong Fei Hong spent most of his time flying, and if he was tired from flipping out he would stab people.

[Hermes3X]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Wong Fe Hung lived in the south. He was one of the better village boxers, a head hick.

You don't even hear of Hung Gar or Wing Chun in the North, where both Taiji and Ba Gua made its way into Royal service. Hung Gar = old, uneducated farmer technology .... just thought I'd be really un-PC for a sec.;)

nothing wrong with dyi lo-fi. You'll always know it's gonna work

[dingyuan]

If between northern and southern style, I will choose northern over southern but there I am stuck with southern style I think I'll go for Choy Lee Fut instead of either Wing Chun and Hung Gar. For effectiveness Wing Chun is definitely better than Hung Gar but if you want to have fun while doing martial art training, go for Hung Gar instead. As you gain experience in Hung Gar, you might get as good as the Wing Chun people but it might take twice the amount of time to master Hung Gar as a fighting art than mastering Wing Chun.

[David Jamieson]

For effectiveness Wing Chun is definitely better than Hung Gar but if you want to have fun while doing martial art training, go for Hung Gar instead. As you gain experience in Hung Gar, you might get as good as the Wing Chun people but it might take twice the amount of time to master Hung Gar as a fighting art than mastering Wing Chun.

spoken like a wing chunner. :p polite and rude at the same time. lol

[dingyuan]

I am not a Wing Chuner, I am a Baji Quaner lol.

[Eddie]

Go with hung gar. You get to wear those cool studded arm bracelets. And you can even wear them when you go out (if you are into alternative type music that is).
Eddie

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Chesben
baji quan is so cool....is the GM lie Shio Bun is for real or only legeng? i hope i can learn this style someday.
do you know any bajiquan school or master in sanfrancisco?
do you think baji quan looks kinda familiar with xingyi?

HA HA!!! I trained in Hung Gar AND BAJI!!! I am RULER OF TEH UNIVERSE!!!!


If you want to find Baji in SF, I suggest 2 things.

1. Go to emptyflower.com and check the "need a teacher section". There's a lot of SF posters there.

2. Do a search and find Adam Hsu's current school website. Email them. Hsu Shifu has students teaching in the bay area.

Li Shu Wen is who I think you are trying to refer to. REal. Documented. Lots of even better documented students.

And in other news....

While this is true:


pretty much every concept within Wing Chun is contained within Hung Gar - but the system also contains so much more stuff that it's normal it takes a while to master.

This is not:



HOWEVER, while it's much quicker to become effective at Wing Chun than Hung Gar, Hung Gar is a much more complete/varied art. I am confident that after 6yrs of everything else being equal, the HG stylist will be able to dominate the WC guy.


The added breadth of Hung Gar makes for a longer time to complete mastery of the entire style but if you are just concerned with mastering empty hand fighting that's a different story. The broader syllabus of Hung Gar, IMHO is better utilized as a bigger resource to tailor the style to the individuals personal style, physical traits etc. You don't need to learn the Guan Dao, Sabre, assorted weapons, all the sets, and on and on. You could just stick to the basics and get really deep into Fu Hok and you'd be ok for fighting.

Incidentally I have been posting lately on a very relevent thread here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18431&page=5

And also on the following page of the same thread. On Bullshido I am simply "Omar". My dialogue with "Jolly Roger" is mainly about comparing Hung Gar and WC side by side.

Check it out.

[Ray Pina]

The idea of training the human hand to be like a tiger claw or even a crane's beak, TO ME, is as silly as training my human nose to be like an elephant's trunk.

You are a human. Use your brain, understand space and time and energy, entering and exiting, shielding.

This is not to unlike the guys who say condition, condition, condition. But you can only condition so much.

I can work and save, work and save.... will I compete with Bill Gates?

Better to know your budget.

[David Jamieson]

The idea of training the human hand to be like a tiger claw or even a crane's beak, TO ME, is as silly as training my human nose to be like an elephant's trunk.

wherever did you hget the idea that the shapes are trained to "be like"?

They are shaped liked, they do not behave like. It is expressive use of multiple handforms in many kungfu systems that are the small details of it's techs and counters.

Not everything is a slap or a meat fist. :p

[Ultimatewingchun]

"In my area there are a couple of experienced masters. One offers a 'modified for street combat' wing chun, and the other offers traditional hung gar. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each, and what input can anyone give me to help me choose?"

"I checked them out, but I havn't seen the actual classes, only a demo by a wing chun student"....

Kwesi:

I've been doing Wing Chun for 29 years and teaching it for 20 - so of course I'd naturally say go with the wing chun...BUT I'LL TELL YOU WHAT!

Go back to both schools and ask to see a sparring class - not forms, not chi sao, not two man sets, not pre-arranged sparring drills...SPARRING!

If one has such a class (and it looks good) and the other doesn't have such a class (or won't let you watch) - then the answer is easy. If they both have it - and one looks more realistic than the other...fine. Another easy choice. If neither has it - or they both have it but both 5uck...

Go study something else.

[Waxwood rod]

my Hung gar class never spared. i mean never. We would do pre arranged drills and punch pads, but no fighting. god bless their littles hearts if they ever actually have to fight. TKD was way better than what we did at that school.

[Mutant]

as far as which school to choose, ultimatewingchun / victor's advice above is the clearest yet.
imo, you should follow his advice in choosing between the two.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
The idea of training the human hand to be like a tiger claw or even a crane's beak, TO ME, is as silly as training my human nose to be like an elephant's trunk.

You are a human. Use your brain, understand space and time and energy, entering and exiting, shielding.

This is not to unlike the guys who say condition, condition, condition. But you can only condition so much.

I can work and save, work and save.... will I compete with Bill Gates?

Better to know your budget.

This is silly, the human hand can rake with its fingers, claw, and hit with the heel of the palm. So they call this tiger claw in a figurative way.

Can poke with fingers , hit with the ball of the wrist or hook with the hand, they call this crane beak in figurative way.

Don't beleive the hype that somebody stood there and actually looked at animals with a note pad on their lap and did it their way. They may have been an inspitration but all the moves are definately human.

After doing kung fu for many years I have noted one thing. That many styles, for all their differences, are mostly the same "staff" with a different "tip" to them.

So whether you do a push down and strike with a claw or with a palm or with a closed fist, its still a push down and strike. You can even do it with those pillows that you strap to your wrist.

P.S. Ditto what victor said.

[Ray Pina]

You've missed my point but I don't feel like explaining it.

All I'll say is, I can poke you in your eye with my pinky finger .... and that's prefectly human as well.

And that I have yet to play with a Hung Gar guy who has grabbed the facemask of my headgear saying, that could have been my grabbing the back of your skull through the eye sockets and yanking down (I've studied Hung Gar, probbaly under better instruction than yourself ... Sifu Frank Yee lineage).

Thise pillows you mock would probbaly be of great service to Hung Gar schools, allowing students to punch and be punched under real speed, power and intention, insteadof clawing the air .... meow, meow.

[red5angel]

The idea of training the human hand to be like a tiger claw or even a crane's beak, TO ME, is as silly as training my human nose to be like an elephant's trunk.

I'd be willing to bet that at some point, someone said it would be silly to make humans fly like birds too.

[red5angel]

Thise pillows you mock would probbaly be of great service to Hung Gar schools, allowing students to punch and be punched under real speed, power and intention, insteadof clawing the air .... meow, meow.

you know, this dedication to doing it the "real" way is starting to resemble your dedication to your old instructor, you know back when bakmei was still around. Basically it seems like you've just gone from one alter to another.....

[Ray Pina]

Red,

It would be silly to try to fly as a human by turning your arms into wings, by flapping them so many times that they produce feathers and the favaorable conditions for flight.

...

As for the Bak Mei mention, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Maybe just come out and say it.

But I can say, as long as I've been posting here I've been training with my current master. Or at least I think so.

As for changing my handle, this new one just fits where I am right now better. Before I was writing a book about a character around Bak Mei, so that's what was in my life.

But since you're so on my $hit -- amazing you had to paint your friends fence when we actually could have gottent together:rolleyes: -- let me give you a heads up: I already have my next handle picked out and taken ... "Revolution Fist" .... I won't go with it though until after my next fight in Sept. Waiting to see after training till then if it rings true.

I've never hid who I was, post my name regularly, and even came looking for YOU!!!!! After several posts like the last one you made.

Of course we know what happened there. And again, I travel for work, so maybe next time your friend's fence won't be in need of such dire, urgent repair.

Maybe you'll have your handstand kick down by then. I'd really like to see it.

Ray Pina

[red5angel]

hmmmm, maybe you misunderstood, so I'll send you outside to look up in the sky. When you see the long tubular thing with wings go by, try to ask yourself where the inspiration for that came?
Human beings have learned a lot from nature, at times we've improved upon it, and at other times it's remained a mystery. This movement on this forum to try to smack down the idea that fighting by imitating things in nature is just logic gone bad. There are a lot of different ways to fight then to just punch and kick like a human being. Of course as a human being you can only move so many ways, so you adapt it to what you can do, but some goodideas have come from it. I'm betting there some element of that even in what you learn there efist.
I say you mma/sport/reality/100% resistance/aliveness guys stop whining about something you obviously haven't given a whole lot of thought too. It looks silly and shows everyone else you still have a lot to learn about fighting since you haven't considered all the aspects. You guys are so focused on your way of doing things you can't see the variety and all the other gifts man was given.....


amazing you had to paint your friends fence when we actually could have gottent together

you still whining about that? I already explained to you that some short fighter wanna be on some internet forum isn't exactly my priority when it comes to getting things done. I had **** to do their bro. Oh wait! Do you get stood up a lot on dates?! If so I'm totally sorry for making fun of you dude, I know that's not funny.


"Revolution Fist"

That's right, straight from the "my teachers the best" pulpit to the "sport fightings the best" pulpit. We know because you won't let us forget it, ad nauseum.
I thnk there some irony there considering how you've taken some small shots at Ross's persistant posting about his style, and your as persistant as he is, you just don't post as much and don't have the stamina to stick it out like he does.


I've never hid who I was, post my name regularly, and even came looking for YOU!!!!!

well, next time you decide you want to ambush me you just let me know please. See, for as honest a person as you are, my impression from you was we were going together for a beer or two, maybe some dinner. I didn't realize it was some secret challenge match. If I'd have known that I may have made the time ;)


Of course we know what happened there.

Seriously dude, you gotta get over that. It's not like we were dating or anything.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by red5angel
Seriously dude, you gotta get over that. It's not like we were dating or anything.

He's right E. MasterKiller would probably be mad as hell if he knew you were trying to rub up on Red.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
You've missed my point but I don't feel like explaining it.

Your point is non sequitur. Its based on an erroneous assumption.


All I'll say is, I can poke you in your eye with my pinky finger .... and that's prefectly human as well.

yes, so what? Its still an erronoeus assumption.


And that I have yet to play with a Hung Gar guy who has grabbed the facemask of my headgear saying, that could have been my grabbing the back of your skull through the eye sockets and yanking down (I've studied Hung Gar, probbaly under better instruction than yourself ... Sifu Frank Yee lineage).

I'm sure even the Frank Yee school is rolling their eyes at this silly comment. Despite the hyperbole, they couldn't at least give you a nasty claw or rake? Ask to spar with them without the face mask.


Thise pillows you mock would probbaly be of great service to Hung Gar schools, allowing students to punch and be punched under real speed, power and intention, insteadof clawing the air .... meow, meow.

Uh dude, I use gloves. And, the point was that you can use your technique regardless of the furniture on your hands. So please read slowly as it may dawn on you that you are arguing school poiltics and not system use.

BTW, I don't study Hung gar. But my teachers are pretty on par as kung fu practitioners . So forgive me if I tell you to stick that last comment about my teachers straight up your ass. Thank you.

[red5angel]

He's right E. MasterKiller would probably be mad as hell if he knew you were trying to rub up on Red.

that's right, and you don't want to **** off a fat dude like that, he'll charge!

besides, why's everyone always tryin' to rub up on ole red?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by red5angel

besides, why's everyone always tryin' to rub up on ole red?

Simple. You're the ***** Red.

[red5angel]

I'm the SEXY *****!!!!!

[Sim Koning]

Okay, I train both these arts, so I'll give my two cents. Wing Chun is a good system if you want something simple and effective that does not require a large amount of athletic ability. The only problem with it is its students often become close minded and think that anything that does not fit the centerline theory is inferior and doesn't work, so they never bother to learn it. I find Wing Chun to be most effective if you keep an open mind and learn Chin Na (which I use in Chi Sau alot) clinching and grappling, which should be part of the system anyway if you have a good teacher.

Here are some clips of my Sifu doing Wing Chun

school web sitehttp://chanskungfu.com/

Wing Chun clips
http://www.chanskungfu.com/videos/MYJ%20large.wmv

http://www.chanskungfu.com/videos/myjf%20ending.wmv

Hung Gar is a more traditional style and because of this some schools may focus more on forms than actual fighting. If you want to learn how to fight, you may have to search for a school that has a separate fighting/sparring class because the classes will most likely focus on forms and weapons. There are huge number of self defense techniques in those forms however, but you do have to train some full contact sparring (yes, with gloves) to develop the timing and reflexes to use them. If you like weapons and want to become a "ninja", hung gar is the right art for you.

here is a video of the Jow Gar system, which has Hung Gar forms in it such as Tiger and Crane, Iron Wire and Five Animals.

http://www.chanskungfu.com/videos/jowgarmed.wmv

[Vajramusti]

Chin na is part if wing chun when taught right.

[Sim Koning]

If you guys read my post, I say those things should be a part of the system if you have a good teacher. Wing Chun does not have hooks, round kicks, ground fighting etc... So in my opinion and by todays standards, it is not what I would call a "complete" art. I also find that many Wing Chun students don't like the idea of cross training because they think Wing Chun has everything, which it simply doesn't.

[Ray Pina]

I'm not going to get into a ****ing match with you, so I'll make a few points and let it be at that:

1) Planes resemble sharks more than a bird to me. I don't know where the inspiration for today's current flying machines come from but that leads to point No. 2

2) Red, you talk, talk, talk, talk .... tell somebody they should go fight because .... and then talk, talk, talk .... tell somebody else they should go fight because.

You talk **** like this, and then I fly a thousand miles to your backyard to get together ... what do you think its for? Yes, it would have been a friendly match, and we would have had dinner and beers, but I was there to shut your mouth.

You have such strong opinions on many posts and I wonder what these are based on? I'm thinking its more that you agree with certain theories. or not, than you having actually put them to test for real. And not jerking off with the local Fri.-night "under-hand-toss downs". I'm talking real fighting against foes that want to take you out.

3) I am not a great fighter but want to be .... my master is very good... and no one here knows ore than me what I need to improve on.

Anything I post here is based on my fighting experience. I am only 5'11 but don't consider myself short. Maybe you just think that because the last fight footage I shared was against a guy about 6'3 or 6'4.

But my point is this. I might be right, I might be wrong, but as a martial artist I am willing to try and show why I think I'm right .... not type about it.

The fact is you talked tough, I told you I was coming out and you said fine. Said I was coming, wanted to compare, you said fine. I called you from the airport and you had to paint a fence. I didn't mention this before, and that was LAST summer. But you bothered me now. All this typing about fighting has confused you. Check yourself.

I know you'll respond quick, and say something witty or insulting ... you're a good talker. But as far as I'm concerned I have nothing more to say to you.

But I'll repeat, I AM NOT A GREAT FIGHTER. Just trying my best to be. Little by little. But don't let the fact that I have the balls to walk the path offend you. I'm not the only one here.

[SifuAbel]

"You talk **** like this, and then I fly a thousand miles to your backyard to get together ... what do you think its for? Yes, it would have been a friendly match, and we would have had dinner and beers, but I was there to shut your mouth."

Dude, if this is true, you are either made of money or a total psycho. Or worse, both. Tell me you didn't travel specifically to meet some internet guy. Tell me there was a real need to travel there instead. A not being a good fighter as you say, you have to be a total fool to go into a situation blind and unknowing. For all you know you could be walking straight into the den of a bear.

[Waxwood rod]

Both styles suck. if you want to be a ninja you should train in ring sports:)

[David Jamieson]

Waxwood rod clearly knows nothing about anything judging from his last comment. :p

anyway, wing chun will likely be easier to find as it is a very popular style of kungfu and takes a relatively short time to learn and because of this is very appealing to moderns.

Hung Gar is a little harder to find and ultimately does take a little longer to learn.

Any fighting style is ok. Goals and objectives are different.
Avoid Fat teachers, Avoid teachers who are too young, 20 somethings really shouldn't be calling themselves "sifu".

Be courteous as you would expect courtesy to be extended to you. Sometimes you have to commute to get good training.

[Vajramusti]

Search and find the best teacher of a decent CMA style.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Waxwood rod clearly knows nothing about anything judging from his last comment. :p

[QUOTE][B]anyway, wing chun will likely be easier to find as it is a very popular style of kungfu and takes a relatively short time to learn and because of this is very appealing to moderns.

Thats Bruce Lee's fault. J/K


Hung Gar is a little harder to find and ultimately does take a little longer to learn.

Hung gar takes longer to complete, it doesn't take longer to get results. Plus they work their legs a lot more and have more angles of attack. IE good for attackers that aren't staying above shoulder level.


Any fighting style is ok. Goals and objectives are different.
Avoid Fat teachers, Avoid teachers who are too young, 20 somethings really shouldn't be calling themselves "sifu".

Avoid fat teachers that look bad. Fat teachers that look good are ok. Some fat teachers are still killer good , but they just like to eat.

20 somethings with 10 years or more are OK. I'd say 23 and above. Assistant instuctor need not be that old. 5 years for jr. instuctors


Be courteous as you would expect courtesy to be extended to you. Sometimes you have to commute to get good training.

Common courtesy is no longer en vogue. This is the age of the self entitled college brat that has it all figured out and already knows everything.

[David Jamieson]

Common courtesy is no longer en vogue. This is the age of the self entitled college brat that has it all figured out and already knows everything.

en vogue or not, the college brat knows nothing. You know that. :p

[SifuAbel]

duh

[Ray Pina]

I'm a writer/editor. One of the company's we cover is based in Red's home state. They flew me in to see some products and go bass fishing. It was a light trip. Had time to kill.

Also, we talked about meeting up for a friendly comparison and then dinner. Not a fight to the death.

It's behind us now so I'm over it. But it seems that I was posting my opinion about this subject and Red personally attacked me. This is not the first time.

I watch him post why others should fight and how its cowardly to say you would and then not drive the "easy 7 hours". Well, he talked -- like he tends to do -- and then I showed up at his front door and at the last minute says he has to paint his friends fence. I gave him the date well in advance.

It's neither here nor there. I'm not about to drive an hour to fight anyone. I have plenty of folks to play with from many different disciplines all right here.

But talk and talk and talk and somebody called him on it and he didn't want to back it up. It was a PERFECT opportunity. If Red comes out to NYC and gives me a months notice, God **** will I clear my calandar.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
He's right E. MasterKiller would probably be mad as hell if he knew you were trying to rub up on Red. Don't worry, sugar. Poppa has some left for you.

[red5angel]

I'm not going to get into a ****ing match with you, so I'll make a few points and let it be at that:

translation "I want to get the last word in so I'm going to try to make my points then stop posting."

1) Then do some research, or take a high school history class. I'll point you to Michaelangelo for starters.....

2) talk, talk, talk.....


but I was there to shut your mouth.


LOL! Tough guy now are we?


I fly a thousand miles to your backyard

I thought you were in the are for a business trip? Is this getting back to the ambush thing again? Next time you want to fight me, have the guts to say you want to fight me instead of trying to setup an ambush.


You have such strong opinions on many posts and I wonder what these are based on? I'm thinking its more that you agree with certain theories. or not, than you having actually put them to test for real. And not jerking off with the local Fri.-night "under-hand-toss downs". I'm talking real fighting against foes that want to take you out.

Oh I see, so your back pedalling and getting off your own pedastal about fighting in the ring then? Fighting in the ring is jerking off? So when do you start hitting the streets to test your sh!t for real tough guy? Or is it that like every other guy on this forum you live in a tough neighborhood and have to fight your way to work everyday anyway? ;)

3)
But my point is this. I might be right, I might be wrong, but as a martial artist I am willing to try and show why I think I'm right .... not type about it.

interesting. While I can respect your desire to fight, and your will to get out there and challenge yourself, "not type about it" isn't entirely accurate now is it?


The fact is you talked tough, I told you I was coming out and you said fine. Said I was coming, wanted to compare, you said fine

That's not entirely accurate either. Last we talked about it, scheduling wasn't going to be conducive to fighting so we were going to get together for a beer, maybe cross chi sau as I belive you called it then. If you wanted to fight, you should have made that plain and I may have been more motivated to take more time off my schedule. I didn't talk tough, we had a freindly, or what I thought was freindly, conversation about possibly meeting up for dinner and maybe a little patty cake. Stop trying to make it sound like something it wasn't. Keeerist, I'm starting to think you're aprime date rape candidate....."She said she just wanted to be frinds but I know what she really wanted"
And frankly dude, this obsession with you not meeting up with me is starting to get frightening. you said you'd be back at some point, great, then I'll make the time for you when you do.


But I'll repeat, I AM NOT A GREAT FIGHTER. Just trying my best to be. Little by little. But don't let the fact that I have the balls to walk the path offend you. I'm not the only one here.


keeeerist, can you get anymore holier then thou? I mean more then you have been? Frankly, talking doesn't seem to be an issue with you either. As matter of fact, you talk more about what you "KNOW" about fighting and what you "KNOW" works waaaaayyy more then I do. You don't see me continuing to prostrate myself befor the alters of my masters - I made the mistake once, you won't see me make it again - and going on and on about how my way is better then the others. I got better, you should too.



I'm a writer/editor. One of the company's we cover is based in Red's home state. They flew me in to see some products and go bass fishing. It was a light trip. Had time to kill.

WHAT?! I thought you flew a thousand miles to teach me a lesson -

QUOTE]and then I fly a thousand miles to your backyard to get together ... but I was there to shut your mouth.[/QUOTE]


But talk and talk and talk and somebody called him on it and he didn't want to back it up. It was a PERFECT opportunity. If Red comes out to NYC and gives me a months notice, God **** will I clear my calandar.


well, efist as I said before, you didn't make it plain we were going to fight. We had talked about it, and we had decided on beers and maybe touching hands. That's it, period, I wasn't aware we were getting together to have a showdown so you could shut my mouth. I promise you, that if you come back to town, I will make the oppurtunity to fight with you so you'll at the very least stop whining about it. Otherwise, stop obsessing ninjaboy. Atleast now I know your true intentions

[mok]

Originally posted by omarthefish
...
Incidentally I have been posting lately on a very relevent thread here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18431&page=5

[/B]


Hey Omar - thx for the link - I really enjoyed that thread. Actually I was expecting a more anti-Hung or anti-Kung fu bent for something off bullshido - I was pleasantly suprised to see somehting more balanced - with good arguments on either side...

BTW: how do you find Baji mixes w/ Hung kuen ? I might one day be interested in trying this out - a friend of a friend does tang lang/baji under Li Shu Wen/Su Yu Chang lineage...


Cheers,


mok

[Ray Pina]

In actuality we did not have a conversation. I e-mailed you that I would be in the area and wanted to get together, compare, THEN have dinner.... you said fine.

I e-mailed you after I booked the flight, told you I will be in your area on such and such a date .... you said fine, we'd meet up.

I e-mailed you a day or two before I was to take off and you said, sorry, have to paint my friend's fence. Not like you couldn't call your friend and say, let's paint today or tomorrow. Or on the weekend. Or anytime, just not between 4 and 6 on such a date .... anyway.

You keep bringing up my master and old screen names, but in reality I fight my own fights. I don't rely on lineage (which is quite good actualy), style or where I grew up. I rely on what I have at the time I face off against someone else. Win some, lose some. But don't talk and no show. And don't say one should fight and not fight. And don't put two cents in where it doesn't belong and with no experience to back it up.

You want to talk cartwheels and hand stands I'm all ears. When it comes to TMA and fighting in general, you got nothing I haven't seen or heard .... martial artists that talk theory and about what and if .... that's a dime a dozen.

Say what you want and dress it up how you want .... you punked out like a little bit(h. Nothing you say will change that it my eyes. We both know what happened.

[red5angel]

I e-mailed you a day or two before I was to take off and you said, sorry, have to paint my friend's fence.


I thought it was on an airport phone? gotta get your facts straight sonny.....

boohoo, you got stood up, big effin deal, how old are you anyway that it matters this much to you? Captinpickaxe was supposed to get a hold of me this past week while he was in town but couldn't due to scheduling problems. You don't see me whining on and on and on about it. Fukk dude, you just gotta get over it. Or wait, if it helps shut you up, I think it was your impressive visage and your incredibly powerful kungfu lineage, and also you willingness to fight that scared me off. I mean that's really what it was. Your just one scary dude.



I don't rely on lineage (which is quite good actualy), style or where I grew up.


bwahahahahahhaa!!! apparently I'm the only one remembering the bakmei days......


But don't talk and no show. And don't say one should fight and not fight. And don't put two cents in where it doesn't belong and with no experience to back it up.

I'm going to explain something so your little MMA converted brain can understand. Threatening someone on the internet and then not following through, bad form. Challenging someone to fight, then insisting they come out to you, bad form. Talking about getting together with someone you don't really know, then having to back out do to MORE IMPORTANT THINGS, not even close. Clear or do I need to type slower?


And don't put two cents in where it doesn't belong and with no experience to back it up.


big words from a small man who's fought a couple of small fight sand thinks he's the ****. big whoop. As you like to say, your just talking, talking, talking.


you punked out like a little bit(h. Nothing you say will change that it my eyes. We both know what happened.

I don't get it, no matter how many times ti's explained to you, it just bounces off that thick neanderthal forehead and hits the floor. all I get is that slck jawed gaze and no look of comprehension. Tell you what, I'm going to do what you don't have the discipline to do., I'm going to cut this conversation off tright here until you wanna get your facts straight their sally, comprende chingata?

[Ray Pina]

You have a lot to say for the guy who backed out.

so is your concern that I might have mixed up that you punked out over the phone or over the e-mai? I don't remember anymore.

Also, please come to NY and fight in one of these "small" King of San Da events. They're open for anyone WILLING.

....
Noticed your sign off making fun of Earth Dragon. Pretty funny in the context of things, huh

[red5angel]

I'm comming to that ghetto NYC you call home after the holidays and knocking you the fcuk out right in front of your students!!!!"

extremely ironic, but probably way beyond you ;)

[Ray Pina]

No, I see how you could view it.

But I view it as you posting something to make fun of somebody who talked smack but hasn't backed it up. You saying he should drive the 7 hours to NYC (that post is only a few weeks old, we can dig it up). But I DID come out to you.

And in this business I can get a phone call and be back out there again -- I travel a lot. But I'm thinking you weren't expecting that the first time. And I'm sure your friend will need garden work the next time.

[red5angel]

And in this business I can get a phone call and be back out there again


then I tell you what e-fist, as one human being to another and as one martial artist to another, you make the call you need to and let me know when you'll be out. If it was this important to you to begin with, let's just get it over with, you come on out, I promise I will make how ever much time you want and we can mix it up. My capoeira school has all the gear we could need ( I use MMA gloves for sparring most of the time, they do not cary those so if you do too, bring your own) and also one of those nifty spongy mat floors for takedown work.
This is not a threat, a challenge or anything you want to get all hot and bothered about. Since it obviously offends you so that I couldn't meet up the last time, and now that I know your intentions, you make the call and I will make the rest of the arrangements, deal?

[red5angel]

hell, win or lose, just to show you how good a sport I am, I'll even take you out for sushi and that beer we were going to have afterwards.

[Ray Pina]

Now that we are talking person to person, and not screen name to screen name, that's what I wanted to do the first time -- that's all.

However, read my post. It's not my call to make. A company calls me saying they have a new product and they want to fly me out for coverage. I was there then. That was the opportunity.

If it presents itself again in the future, and we're both in communication, certainly. But I would think you'd probbably be to NYC before I go back to the Twin Cities. If that's the case. I can also supply anything we would need.

I'm glad we're talking more rationally now. Please understand that I felt somewhat attacked by several of your posts directed at me and not the subject at hand. And being that our respective histories are the way they are, I didn't quite understand it.

[red5angel]

I know my bad man.

Here's my deal. I got on this forum what? 5 years ago maybe? At that time I was studying wingchun and it was cool and I got alot of great advice and got to talk to a bunch of other cma guys and some others who had a lot of good things to say.
recently this forum seems to have just gone to hell and I've got caught up in it. It's parelleled my disgust and frustration with my martial search as well. The politics of wingchun was disgusting on so many levels it s a wonder I didn't get burned out faster but I can be tenacious that way. Eventually I was so mislead and misused that I gave it up. At that time there was suddenly a big push for grappling on this forum. I tried it out, but it wasn't my thing at the time so I kept pursuing CMA.
I found a cheap mantis school, but the quality wasn't there. IT might have been good for self defense but that wasn't what I was lookign for, I wanted to fight. At that point a couple of guys brought me to a local fight club and I got a taste of what I wanted.
I started studying Kali and submission grappling, but started getting chest pains that were keeping me up all night. I found out I have a weak heart valve and it was highly recommended that I not pursue sport fighting. Supposedly a hard enough shot to the chest would be enough to do major damage, if not just kill me outright.
I thought about it, decided I was enjoying life, wife, and everything else, so I stopped training like I was going to fight. I hit a low point and din't know what I was going to do, I couldn't get back into wingchun, the thought disgusted me and I Was not allowed to go back to my old school. I joined up with my freinds shaolin longfist school after he beat me in a couple of matches and showed me he could use it to fight. That school closed down.
I foudn a great school for hsingyi, bagua, but it wasn't really my pace, and at that time I got to fight with a couple of guys who do capoeira, as well as TKD and some BJJ and they had decided to try to throw in some capoeira for fun. Later they showed me some stuff I could use to warm up, loosen up and get more flexible, and I fell in love with the art. It's not pracitcal, especially not for me, but it's fun and I am doing things I never thought I would be able to do, even if ti's not as pretty as the other guys.
I take Kali and submission grappling classes on saturday mornings to keep up with my self defence work and the occasional sparring match I get into.

the simple fact is, that not only was my love for CMA pretty much blown away over a year, but once I found what I wanted, it was basically taken away from me. Instead of feeling sorry for myself I went to something that atleast was challenging and fun to do for me. I still fight form time to time, I just have to watch it, but the doc thinks I should be ok as long as it doesn't get too intense.

At some point I'll post some video, I just don't have any access to a digital video camera and frankly, all the guys I'm sparring as of late are a hell of a lot better then I am, and who wants video of yourself getting wiped all over the mat running around on this forum?

on top of that all I return to this forum to hear is that if you're not fighting and competing you don't have it, you can't have it, and frankly I'm a little sick of it. I know I can't keep up with some guy who's training 4-8 hours a day and fighting in full contact NHB matches every month or so, I'm not an idiot, but I hold my own against some guys who train harder then I do, and I know from a self defense point of view I got what it takes to put luck on my side. I don't need to hear that the only way to get it is to compete, or study one of the more popular sport arts. Capoeira, believe it or not has made me more flexible, stronger and I feel a little faster, in just 5 months. It's not going to make me superman, but hell I can still run a 5 minute mile no sweat (Well, some sweat) I can run tabata(sp?) protocol sprints at 15 seconds 15 times in one sitting. I just did my first full 25 pullups together in about 8 years or so. I'm not the top of the hea, but I'm working hard and it's tough to see people claiming I can't have what it takes because I'm not training like them.

I guess all of this sort of combined to make me more interested in trolling and arguing politics then talking martial arts. That and the irony hat the only threads that you can talk on without getting into huge arguments are the mma/sport related threads about grappling or takedowns. Everything else just ends in a ****ing contest.

I'm hoping to get to hook up with meatshake and captinpickaxe here in the near future so we can spar and I can get some form cred :D, since I can't tape it I might as well have some supporting evidence says I can throw down if I have to.

I guess I attacked you because you're doing what I want to be doing but can't. I was wrong, my apologies. I attacked MK cause he's fat. :D

Now if any of you feel real bad for me just PM me and I can send you the address where you can send checks dn amoney orders only please ;)

[FuXnDajenariht]

aaaaahhhhwwww now kiss and make up :D

[Ray Pina]

Red, sorry things got out of hand on both our ends.

As for saying one "cant' have it" without competing .... certainly never came from my mouth. I simply don't believe that. Hell, one of the best fighters I know has never taken a martial art, never stepped in a ring ... just a real tough kid (only 5'8) with natural instinct.

As for everybody else, screw them. They'll always have something to say and someone else will always be selling a better mouse trap. Find what you like and stick with it. Get some striking, get some shielding and become familiar with different positions -- including the ground -- and that's it. It's not healthy to compare.

I won't have Bill Gate's money, and, frankly, as a writer, I'm quite poor. But I can feed myself and pay my NY rent and I'm happy. That's more than enough for me.

Hope things work out for you, especially your health. And if you have a good wife you've alreday won, hit the lottery.

Peace
Ray

[Pork Chop]

Pansies...

I finally make it back to KFO after months of layoff, get greeted with a nice little tiff, and you guys gotta go all Abel-Ross on me in a big, huge, sausage-suckin fest.

Gimme a break.

Lisssen I been out to Denver 3 times over the last year, but do you see me FORGIVING Norther Shaolin for not hangin out with me?
HEEEEELLLLL NO! As Eric Cartman says "I'll hate 'im till i die!"

I went to San Antonio just last month, do you see me offerin myself as a gangbang for Water Dragon, Meat Shake and the rest of the Texas crowd?
HEEEEELLLLL NO! As Eric Cartman says "I'll hate 'em till i die!"

I was in Boston earlier this year and got stood up by ShaolinLueb; do you see me tenderly rubbing his bald head as I tell him "it's okay honey"?
HEEEEELLLLL NO! As Eric Cartman says "I'll hate 'im till i die!"

I've been in NYC and Philly a bunch of times this year, do you see me gettin all mushy with the folks from those places?
HEEEEELLLLL NO! As Eric Cartman says "I'll hate 'em till i die!"

Now I want you guys to go back to hating each other, and give a good, clean, flame war. I expect low blows and hitting after the bell. Now touch gloves and come out fighting!





***disclaimer: I don't really have anything against any of the above as my trips are usually last minute & very short - like my sex life***