martial art VS martial sport

[captain]

question:does a martial sport always beat a martial art because of the training?i believe so.wc is no worse than mt,but mt wins most of the wc/mt bouts for nothing more than the way it is trained.it's an oldie but a goody,but the judo vs tjj also goes some way to prove this.so,if you want all destroying wc,sport train it.maybe the next wc genius will be a person who can discover a better training method.

Russ.

[SevenStar]

The key to a style's success is how it is trained.

[sihing]

Yes I agree, but who ever said the people that practice "Martial Art" don't train hard?

James

[YongChun]

Originally posted by captain
question:does a martial sport always beat a martial art because of the training?i believe so.wc is no worse than mt,but mt wins most of the wc/mt bouts for nothing more than the way it is trained.it's an oldie but a goody,but the judo vs tjj also goes some way to prove this.so,if you want all destroying wc,sport train it.maybe the next wc genius will be a person who can discover a better training method.

Russ.

I thought Ernie said that Gary Lam felt MT was better in the ring and WC was better in the street. Since he did both, his belief must be based on something? Training for the sport is different, maybe the same as the difference between training for the 100 meter run and the 10,000 meter run. Both tpe of people run and have to be in shape but the strategy is different. I think right now there are all kinds of ways that WC is being trained and a few have done well inthe ring sports because they trained for that.

Ray

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Yes I agree, but who ever said the people that practice "Martial Art" don't train hard?

James

nobody. But, compare the avg sport school to the avg tma school. In general, I'm sure you'll find that the sport schools are training harder. Why? because they have fighters. At our gym, there are always people getting ready for some sort of competition - you have to train hard for that. With non competition schools, you aren't training to beat someone who is as good as you or better on a regular basis. you aren't stepping into a ring to win a match. Consequently, the level of training will naturally tend to be different.

[SevenStar]

here's the question - why do you call it martial sport? why would you not consider it also martial art?

[old jong]

Originally posted by SevenStar
here's the question - why do you call it martial sport? why would you not consider it also martial art?

Art is art and sport is sport!...Different needs different focus and training.Different tastes ETC...
BTW,sport fighters can have all of the sport scene for themselves;they should at leat leave the "art" defenition to us,martial artists!...;)

[SAAMAG]

Martial art can easily be martial sport in my opinion, but on the flipside would require a bit more work.

The most stand out difference between the sport fighters and the martial artist, is primarily the training methods of the two and the experience they have ACTUALLY FIGHTING or sparring with contact. So to achieve this end the martial artist would only need to train as the martial artists did when their lives depended on it day in and day out. Not the way most watered down mcdojos are doing nowadays.

For the sport fighter to become a martial artist, the transition would require a suppression of ego and a mindset of "total" enlightment rather then big muscles and the ability to beat someone else in a ring. Usually their style (which is a conglomeration of techniques with no real "style") would be supplemented with some other system of choice, but that would not always be the case.

That brings another question to mind...aside from the methodology of training, what differentiates the martial artist from the sport fighter as far as choice of style goes?

[anerlich]

For the sport fighter to become a martial artist, the transition would require a suppression of ego and a mindset of "total" enlightment rather then big muscles and the ability to beat someone else in a ring.

Is there "partial" enlightment?

Carlos Gracie Snr. was a highly spiritual man.

There are many good fighters without "big" muscles. One of them, Kostya Tszyu, just won a world boxing title.

Arguably, there are more pitfalls on the way to spiritual development through the practice of a TMA as opposed to a sport, where one's ego is kept in check through stressful confrontation, and regularly dealing with loss, disappointment and adversity.

There no sound reason IMO that TMA's are better or worse than sports for character and spiritual development. I find him a bit too granola-munching new age for my taste, but Dan Millman started out as a champion gymnast.

You find a lot of arrogant, egotistic sportsmen, but I'd postulate you find just as many similar people in TMA. Maybe more.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by captain
question:does a martial sport always beat a martial art because of the training?i believe so.wc is no worse than mt,but mt wins most of the wc/mt bouts for nothing more than the way it is trained.it's an oldie but a goody,but the judo vs tjj also goes some way to prove this.so,if you want all destroying wc,sport train it.maybe the next wc genius will be a person who can discover a better training method.


To be competitive in MT, you need to be competent at a range of skills. WC does not have clinching and kneeing which leaves them very vulnerable. A lot of WC guys can't kick or defend a kick which leaves them vulnerable.

Just doing WC, no matter how it's trained, will not be truly competitive unless you have a decent range of skills.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Edmund
WC does not have clinching and kneeing which leaves them very vulnerable. A lot of WC guys can't kick or defend a kick which leaves them vulnerable. Really???
Now you tell me......... ;)

[OdderMensch]

News to me.

As for the "Sport" vs "Art"

If it is done in the spirt of competition, it is a sport.

If it is done in the spirt of expression, it is an art.

Kung Fu is niether. It is the colection and enchancement of skills by spending time practiceing.

[Edmund]

Clinching and kneeing.

[Matrix]

So let me get this straight.

No Clinching and kneeing?
But just kneeing?
How about just clinching?

And we can't kick.
Or defend against a kick.

Man, we stink. :rolleyes:

[Edmund]

Correct.

You stink at those things.

[OdderMensch]

Practice Man ging sau with Oi Sut?

How about lan sau with Tie Sut, lop and Tie Sut sut, or a close in driveing bil sau with a solid rear leg delivered Ding Sut with sueng ma stepping?

Oh man, i'm screwed. :D

[sihing]

Originally posted by Edmund
Correct.

You stink at those things.

LOL

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by old jong
Art is art and sport is sport!...Different needs different focus and training.Different tastes ETC...
BTW,sport fighters can have all of the sport scene for themselves;they should at leat leave the "art" defenition to us,martial artists!...;)

Watch to boxers (since that was the example you used) Compare the style of an in your face indside puncher like tyson, to an outside fighter, like lewis or kiltchko. Tyson wants to slip inside and attack relentlessly with hooks and uppercuts - foreman used to do the same thing. lewis and klitchko have a stiff jab and a pretty solid cross. They have a long reach and prefer to fight on the outside.

These fighters know the same techniques, but they fight so differently - is their expression of boxing not art?

Just tonight in class, I was talking to a guy that I've known/trained with for the past 8 years. Coincidentally, he said, "it's amazing how we've had alot of the same training but have evolved so differently," referring to our preferences in fighting. Is that expression not art? If not, then where do you think "art" comes into play?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vankuen

For the sport fighter to become a martial artist, the transition would require a suppression of ego and a mindset of "total" enlightment rather then big muscles and the ability to beat someone else in a ring. Usually their style (which is a conglomeration of techniques with no real "style") would be supplemented with some other system of choice, but that would not always be the case.

how much experience have you had with sport fighters? IME, more tma have ego problems than sport fighters. Why? because getting your a$$ kicked keeps your ego in check. a mindset of "total" enlightenment? please elaborate. And, that "conglomeration of techniques with no real 'style' " bit was WAY off.

1. boxers only train boxing.
2. thai boxers generally only train thai boxing
3. mma guys mix striking and grappling. They generally have some background in one of the two styles though. Silva was a muay thai practitioner and recently earned his black belt in bjj. Noguiera is a bjj guy. there are olympic caliber wrestlers, champion thaiboxers... Most of the time, these guys have a base in something (usually grappling, but sometimes striking) then supplement it with something else.

That brings another question to mind...aside from the methodology of training, what differentiates the martial artist from the sport fighter as far as choice of style goes?

should there be a difference? you train wing chun. I train muay thai and judo mainly, but train bjj as well. muay thai is no less effective than wing chun. IMO, choice of style really makes no difference - it's more a matter of the individual picking a style that suits him.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The key to a style's success is how it is trained."

Absolutely right.


"I'm sure you'll find that the sport schools are training harder. Why? because...there are always people getting ready for some sort of competition - you have to train hard for that. With non competition schools, you aren't training to beat someone who is as good as you or better on a regular basis."

Right again.


"Here's the question - why do you call it martial sport? why would you not consider it also martial art?"

Just because it is trained for competitive sporting events doesn't mean that it's not a martial art.

As for clinching - very little of that going on in Wing Chun...but kneeing - yes. Kicking - yes.. Elbow strikes - yes. Defending kicks - yes...but the extent and the quality of the above varies GREATLY within the WC world.

And the truth is - not enough WC schools pay adequate attention to the above moves. Too much "sport" chi sao goin' on. Too much time spent "perfecting" the forms...or looking good on the Wooden Dummy...or with the Butterfly Swords or Dragon Pole in hand - preparing for the next demo.

The problem with Wing Chun is that - FOR MANY PEOPLE - the soft side of the art (ie.- sensitivity development, don't fight-force-with-force, deflection, avoidance of the incoming force - ala chi sao, etc)...is OVERDEVELOPED at the expense of the hard side of the art...the explosiveness of the striking...the attacks on major targets (ie. - headshots, kicking techniques that land with authority)...the hard no nonsense bare-knuckle sparring made famous by some through the years, etc.

This mindset has made it too easy for Wing Chun to become a "lite sport" (how many WC schools spend little or no time doing stretching, strengthening, conditioning, bag/mitt/shield work - and last but not least - hard contact sparring?)

And instead choose to spend 80% of their time doing forms and chi sao?

The science - and the "art" behind the theories and guiding principles of Wing Chun ARE very intricate, involved, and evolved...but the downside to this has been a real lack of HARD TRAINING.

Like Bruce Lee said in Enter The Dragon: "It's like a finger pointing to the moon. But don't follow the finger - or you will miss all the heavenly glory." (He was talking about JKD as the finger)....But I'm talking about the "science" and "art" of Wing chun as being the finger...if we get too lost in all of that (ie. - spend too much time delving into it's intricacies and subtleties - as in hours and hours of non-stop chi sao)...we'll miss the whole POINT of it.........................

FIGHTING. (The heavenly glory!)

"Ah...I love the smell of napalm in the morning" - Robert Duvall (Apocalyse Now).

[sihing]

IMO sports builds competitiveness in people which leads to strong desires to win at all costs. Why do people have to win? To prove something to themselves or they enjoy the way it makes them feel because it puts them above someone else, in another class. Pain or pleasure is the strongest reason why we do anything in our lives, so whatever causes us to feel great pleasure or avoidance of pain, is what motivates us in what we will do. Regardless of what the reason is it feeds the ego for sure. I have no problem with competition, but in today’s world you can't even stop at a stop light in your car and not have the guy beside you try and race you to the next light. Stupid... Now when it comes to something as serious as Martial Arts or Fighting Arts like Wing Chun and others, I believe it's really not necessary to compete in this way, especially when it involves possibly hurting another human being seriously. But violence sells tickets and pay per views and therefore earns someone money, so we will have these things.

Martial Arts teach us to control or subdue the Ego, by the way of learning about fighting and self protection, since the ability to defend one's self and loved ones is always a concern, it’s all about Security. Once you learn about this through a Martial Art of your choice it no longer scares you and the fear of confrontation is gone, you have dealt with it, faced it and other fears in the process. Martial Sport, although similar in a visual sense is about competition and defeating another, regardless if it is done with respect in mind or not, one person has to lose for the one to win. Success in life is learning about Win Win situations not Win lose situation, that way we synergize with each other to develop healthy relationships, cooperation and mutual respect. I always have a big laugh when two fighters are at the pre fight press conference and they are at each other throats, insulting one another, showing no respect, then after the fight they are in one another’s arms hugging each other, and they want us to believe that they respect one another and all that crap. If I have respect for my fellow competitor then I will respect him always, before and after the fight. That's one of the things I disliked about Ali, and him calling Frazier a Gorilla or Ape, no respect. Yeah I know all about the psychological warfare to mess with the opponents mind and all but if these guys are professional then that shouldn't work anyways.


James

[YongChun]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
Practice Man ging sau with Oi Sut?

How about lan sau with Tie Sut, lop and Tie Sut sut, or a close in driveing bil sau with a solid rear leg delivered Ding Sut with sueng ma stepping?

Oh man, i'm screwed. :D

I have no idea what those terms mean except Lan sau and Bil sau and Lop/Lap sau.

Ray

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
IMO sports builds competitiveness in people which leads to strong desires to win at all costs.

It's not about winning - it's about testing yourself. It's about gaining experience. when you train for a fight you learn alot about yourself. When you fight, you learn more. If you lose, you learn more than if you won.


Why do people have to win? To prove something to themselves or they enjoy the way it makes them feel because it puts them above someone else, in another class.

Not true. I lost my last fight. I have no problem saying that. Why? because that's life. you can't win them all.


Now when it comes to something as serious as Martial Arts or Fighting Arts like Wing Chun and others, I believe it's really not necessary to compete in this way, especially when it involves possibly hurting another human being seriously. But violence sells tickets and pay per views and therefore earns someone money, so we will have these things.

think beyond tickets. Think about yourself. Are you fighting in the street everyday? getting in the ring gets you contact experience against someone who is really trying to hurt you. Some people realize this, others don't.

Martial Arts teach us to control or subdue the Ego, by the way of learning about fighting and self protection, since the ability to defend one's self and loved ones is always a concern, it’s all about Security. Once you learn about this through a Martial Art of your choice it no longer scares you and the fear of confrontation is gone, you have dealt with it, faced it and other fears in the process.

How real is that security when compared with a boxer? with a bouncer at a club? Once again, contact training in an uncooperative environment is invaluable here.


Martial Sport, although similar in a visual sense is about competition and defeating another, regardless if it is done with respect in mind or not, one person has to lose for the one to win.

Not really. It's about what you make it about. I give all of my trophies and medals to my mother because she likes to display them. To me, it's all about the fight and nothing else.


Success in life is learning about Win Win situations not Win lose situation, that way we synergize with each other to develop healthy relationships, cooperation and mutual respect.

That's the funny thing about real life... it's NOT win/win.


I always have a big laugh when two fighters are at the pre fight press conference and they are at each other throats, insulting one another, showing no respect, then after the fight they are in one another’s arms hugging each other, and they want us to believe that they respect one another and all that crap. If I have respect for my fellow competitor then I will respect him always, before and after the fight. That's one of the things I disliked about Ali, and him calling Frazier a Gorilla or Ape, no respect. Yeah I know all about the psychological warfare to mess with the opponents mind and all but if these guys are professional then that shouldn't work anyways.

you sound like someone who has never competed - in ANYTHING. the hugging afterward isn't fake. After one of my fights, the guy offered to buy me a beer, even though I havd just knocked him out. After my last fight, the guy I lost to came to my school for a seminar that was being given there and was asking me for help with a technique that was being shown. The night of the fight, he was telling my coach how tough he thought I was. bonds are made through fighting.

Alot of the trash talking is hype. Why? for one, it psyches them up. For another (at least in the pro world) it sells tickets. And that is how they make their living. Same in other sports. In my football days, I had friends who played for other teams. when we went out on the field, we tried to kill eachother - it was game time. Afterward, we were friends again. No hard feelings.

[captain]

a martial sport,has taken away 'lethal' moves like eye jabs and leaves a curriculum that can be trained full tilt.ie,like you would in a nhb event,with out hurting your training partner.case in pont,judo/western-thai boxing.
some ideas:

1,jettison SLT.new students can be taught the moves in a less katesque way.you don't need it.

2,chi sau should be very minor part of training.its wc against wc and that is not ideal.

3,students who have trained for over 6 months should spar,as part of the wc curriculum, against other styles.not a challenge,but for education;official element of learning wc.

4,someone very involved with wc,should approach his/her counterpart i western boxing and ask for help in a properly structured sparring regime that mirrors western boxing in application.

just ideas.

Russ.

[CFT]

Originally posted by YongChun
I have no idea what those terms mean except Lan sau and Bil sau and Lop/Lap sau.Just some guesses, could be wrong - my WCK vocabulary is not particularly extensive:

Practice Man ging sau with Oi Sut?
** Man ging sau = asking force hand
** Oi Sut = outside knee

How about lan sau with Tie Sut
** Tie Sut = rising knee

lop and Tie Sut sut, or a close in driveing bil sau with a solid rear leg delivered Ding Sut with sueng ma stepping?
** Ding Sut = blocking knee
** sueng ma = forward horse

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by captain
a martial sport,has taken away 'lethal' moves like eye jabs and leaves a curriculum that can be trained full tilt.ie,like you would in a nhb event,with out hurting your training partner.case in pont,judo/western-thai boxing.
some ideas:

1,jettison SLT.new students can be taught the moves in a less katesque way.you don't need it.

2,chi sau should be very minor part of training.its wc against wc and that is not ideal.

3,students who have trained for over 6 months should spar,as part of the wc curriculum, against other styles.not a challenge,but for education;official element of learning wc.

4,someone very involved with wc,should approach his/her counterpart i western boxing and ask for help in a properly structured sparring regime that mirrors western boxing in application.

just ideas.

Russ.

good post. Is this the way your school is run?

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
1)-It's not about winning - it's about testing yourself. It's about gaining experience. when you train for a fight you learn alot about yourself. When you fight, you learn more. If you lose, you learn more than if you won.

2)-Not true. I lost my last fight. I have no problem saying that. Why? because that's life. you can't win them all.

3)-think beyond tickets. Think about yourself. Are you fighting in the street everyday? getting in the ring gets you contact experience against someone who is really trying to hurt you. Some people realize this, others don't.

4)-How real is that security when compared with a boxer? with a bouncer at a club? Once again, contact training in an uncooperative environment is invaluable here.

5)-Not really. It's about what you make it about. I give all of my trophies and medals to my mother because she likes to display them. To me, it's all about the fight and nothing else.

6)-That's the funny thing about real life... it's NOT win/win.

7)you sound like someone who has never competed - in ANYTHING. the hugging afterward isn't fake. After one of my fights, the guy offered to buy me a beer, even though I havd just knocked him out. After my last fight, the guy I lost to came to my school for a seminar that was being given there and was asking me for help with a technique that was being shown. The night of the fight, he was telling my coach how tough he thought I was. bonds are made through fighting.

8)Alot of the trash talking is hype. Why? for one, it psyches them up. For another (at least in the pro world) it sells tickets. And that is how they make their living. Same in other sports. In my football days, I had friends who played for other teams. when we went out on the field, we tried to kill eachother - it was game time. Afterward, we were friends again. No hard feelings.



1) Like I said earlier, testing yourself is what, having to proving something to yourself. If your in class and learning and progressing through the art the way it should be then you will be tested all along the way. For our instructors test, everything (combat, self defense, grappling, etc) is random against multiple attackers, for long periods of time, against students that are "Really" trying to hit you, a virtual free- for-all. If a student wants to attain this level they know what will be required for that to happen so they make sure they are ready for it.

2) I agree here, losing will teach you something and not all react the same as you, but there are lots of ways of learning those same lessons.

3) This debate is old news. We all pretty well agree that contact training has to happen somewhere along the way in one's training otherwise your skills will not tested. Are you saying that competition bouts are the same as the street? I don't think so, so in this case the same training and learned experience can happen also in the kwoon.

4) Well a student a few months ago with his friends got sucker punched and attacked by three bouncers. Two of them held his arms while he was walking to the washroom and a third one sucker punched him. The assault continued but the student got himself out of there, and his friends eventually found out and helped him escape. Apparently the bouncers were in a bad mood and had done the same thing to others that night. The student later that evening returned to the bar and one by one dispatched all of them, with no problems. He's a level 5 in our system. For myself, I don't go out much anymore but up until a few years ago it was a regular thing for me and I was always lucky to avoid those types of situations, as I never got attacked or challenged, but in today's world it is all or nothing as most are caring knives or guns today in the streets, does competition fighting help there?

5) Well then it looks like you like to fight, why? What is it about fighting that you like? Is there something you need to prove to yourself? I don't need to prove anything to anybody about my fighting abilities or lack thereof. I know I not the best fighter already, and I have no problem with that either. I don't like fighting and I don't consider myself a fighter, just one that can defend themselves well.

6) No the problem is that life is not like this, Win/Win. People are too concerned about themselves and their own worlds that they will step on anyone in their way. Win/Win is the way it should be but maybe I'm too idealistic, oh well shame on me...

7) I have competed in many things since I was young and in my teens, and I met allot of people that were too competitive and saw what it did to them. Up here in Canada Hockey is big, ever see the parents at a kids hockey game, some freak out when the ref makes a bad call against their child or his/her team, they are more into it than the child, I saw the same when I was playing competitive tennis. My parents always encouraged me to do well and try my best but losing is always a possibility and they didn't freak out when that happened for me.

8)Yes I mentioned the "psyc'ng" up part in the last post, but as a professional why would one need to do this? Shouldn't they be confident enough in their training and experience to not have to psyc themselves up? Isn't this part of what "Professional" means?


James[

[old jong]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Watch to boxers (since that was the example you used) Compare the style of an in your face indside puncher like tyson, to an outside fighter, like lewis or kiltchko. Tyson wants to slip inside and attack relentlessly with hooks and uppercuts - foreman used to do the same thing. lewis and klitchko have a stiff jab and a pretty solid cross. They have a long reach and prefer to fight on the outside.

These fighters know the same techniques, but they fight so differently - is their expression of boxing not art?

Just tonight in class, I was talking to a guy that I've known/trained with for the past 8 years. Coincidentally, he said, "it's amazing how we've had alot of the same training but have evolved so differently," referring to our preferences in fighting. Is that expression not art? If not, then where do you think "art" comes into play?

SevenStar
What is the use of this?...You understood exactly what I was talking about!...
I don't deny the "art" aspect of boxing or driving a race car or cooking apple pies or anything else on the face of this planet but Arguing for the sake of argumentation will never bring any answers....Serious ones I mean!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
1) Like I said earlier, testing yourself is what, having to proving something to yourself. If your in class and learning and progressing through the art the way it should be then you will be tested all along the way. For our instructors test, everything (combat, self defense, grappling, etc) is random against multiple attackers, for long periods of time, against students that are "Really" trying to hit you, a virtual free- for-all. If a student wants to attain this level they know what will be required for that to happen so they make sure they are ready for it.

who is "really" trying to hit you though? other people from your kwoon, correct? That's not the same. They don't really wanna hurt you. They don't want you in pain. When it's all said and done, they are your training buddies...

As far as testing yourself, it's not proving anything to yourself. It's gaining experience. I don't have to prove anything to myself or anyone. Competition enhances you.

2) I agree here, losing will teach you something and not all react the same as you, but there are lots of ways of learning those same lessons.

yeah, but I dunno if they have the same impact. Wanna be humbled real quick? get your arse kicked in front of several hundred people.

3) This debate is old news. We all pretty well agree that contact training has to happen somewhere along the way in one's training otherwise your skills will not tested.

It is indeed an old debate. And still, not all schools agree that contact is necessary. It's a debate that for that reason will never end.

Are you saying that competition bouts are the same as the street? I don't think so, so in this case the same training and learned experience can happen also in the kwoon.

see above.

4) Well a student a few months ago with his friends got sucker punched and attacked by three bouncers. Two of them held his arms while he was walking to the washroom and a third one sucker punched him. The assault continued but the student got himself out of there, and his friends eventually found out and helped him escape. Apparently the bouncers were in a bad mood and had done the same thing to others that night. The student later that evening returned to the bar and one by one dispatched all of them, with no problems. He's a level 5 in our system. For myself, I don't go out much anymore but up until a few years ago it was a regular thing for me and I was always lucky to avoid those types of situations, as I never got attacked or challenged, but in today's world it is all or nothing as most are caring knives or guns today in the streets, does competition fighting help there?

it helps about as much as your kwoon does. The lessons of how to deal with adrenaline rush, taking shots, etc. that you learn in the ring also carry over to the street. On the main forum, someone recently posted an article about a thai boxer who beat three guys who broke into his home. One of them had a knife. Not only did he make it out alive, he sent them running out of his home.

5) Well then it looks like you like to fight, why? What is it about fighting that you like? Is there something you need to prove to yourself? I don't need to prove anything to anybody about my fighting abilities or lack thereof. I know I not the best fighter already, and I have no problem with that either. I don't like fighting and I don't consider myself a fighter, just one that can defend themselves well.

As said above, it's not about proving. If it was, I woulda stopped after my first match, in which I KOed the guy, or after the first judo tourney I won. that's not what it's about. It's about improving your skill and doing so through competition. I could stay in my nice, cushiony school, train with them, spar with them and be happy with that, but that's not the same. They don't want to inflict the same pain that an opponent in the ring or street would - the intent isn't there. The ring and the street have different intent as well, but the ring is closer to it than the school...

6) No the problem is that life is not like this, Win/Win. People are too concerned about themselves and their own worlds that they will step on anyone in their way. Win/Win is the way it should be but maybe I'm too idealistic, oh well shame on me...

how it should be and how it is are two different things though, are they not? Ideally, it should be win/win, but realistically, how often does that occur?

7) I have competed in many things since I was young and in my teens, and I met allot of people that were too competitive and saw what it did to them. Up here in Canada Hockey is big, ever see the parents at a kids hockey game, some freak out when the ref makes a bad call against their child or his/her team, they are more into it than the child, I saw the same when I was playing competitive tennis. My parents always encouraged me to do well and try my best but losing is always a possibility and they didn't freak out when that happened for me.

like I said above, competition teaches you lessons - even more when you lose. The fans/supporters that are there but don't compete naturally don't understand that. And even if you competed in the past, you sometimes forget, especially in the case of parents. They want to see their kid win, and they get all emotional about it.

8)Yes I mentioned the "psyc'ng" up part in the last post, but as a professional why would one need to do this? Shouldn't they be confident enough in their training and experience to not have to psyc themselves up? Isn't this part of what "Professional" means?

it's not about my confidence as much as it is about his. it's all mental. you are trying to break eachother before the fight starts. from press conferences to the staredown just before the fight. you're trying to weaken him just enough that you have an advantage. Not only that, but fear is always present. It goes away when the first punch is thrown. being professional doesn't equate to being fearless.

[Tydive]

Sport vs Art... interesting way to break them down. I would rather say that some Martial Arts are also sports (Boxing, Judo etc...) while most Martial Arts are not sports because there is no "sporting competition" within the MA.

You can break it down even more by saying that some MA's focus on competition to the point that they become much less effective as a combat system (TKD, Judo). While others become more effective due to the rules of the competitions (BJJ, MT). Thus sport vs non-sport is not a valid argument for a systems effectiveness.

You must take into consideration the rules that are enforced within the competition. Point fighting is not the same as full contact and will require different training methods. Full contact with no "dirty" moves is not the same as a NHB event, and your training modality will reflect that difference. Same going from gloves to bare fist, major difference.

But the assumption that Captain is making is that WC training needs improvement. What results from WC training would you prefer to see? What are the results that you believe can be found? Can you think of any specific training methods that could improve your WC experience? Now, if you can answer those questions... why don't you use those methods in your own training?

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[BJust because it is trained for competitive sporting events doesn't mean that it's not a martial art.

As for clinching - very little of that going on in Wing Chun...but kneeing - yes. Kicking - yes.. Elbow strikes - yes. Defending kicks - yes...but the extent and the quality of the above varies GREATLY within the WC world.

[/B]

Victor is correct.

There's two aspects:
1. Because WC guys aren't preparing for a MT bout they don't train the range of techniques that will make them competent at the various ring situations that occur in almost every bout.

2. Even if they did want to train those things, they would not have the EXPERTISE in those areas to improve themselves. The practical knowledge of what works and what doesn't comes from people who are very experienced in the ring.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tydive
Sport vs Art... interesting way to break them down. I would rather say that some Martial Arts are also sports (Boxing, Judo etc...) while most Martial Arts are not sports because there is no "sporting competition" within the MA.

bingo.

You can break it down even more by saying that some MA's focus on competition to the point that they become much less effective as a combat system (TKD, Judo). While others become more effective due to the rules of the competitions (BJJ, MT). Thus sport vs non-sport is not a valid argument for a systems effectiveness.

I disagree slightly there though. Judo is combat effective.


But the assumption that Captain is making is that WC training needs improvement. What results from WC training would you prefer to see? What are the results that you believe can be found? Can you think of any specific training methods that could improve your WC experience? Now, if you can answer those questions... why don't you use those methods in your own training?

he might use them in his training. What does that do for WC as a whole though? styles that have a rep for hard training have them because it is style wide. Muay thai is known for it's conditioning. I think he's saying it would benefit WC as a whole if the format changed.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Conditioning and frequent hard contact sparring with protective gear would do wonders for the WC world if it became the norm.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Edmund
Correct.

You stink at those things. That's what I said. :rolleyes:

[SAAMAG]

Originally posted by SevenStar
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vankuen

For the sport fighter to become a martial artist, the transition would require a suppression of ego and a mindset of "total" enlightment rather then big muscles and the ability to beat someone else in a ring. Usually their style (which is a conglomeration of techniques with no real "style") would be supplemented with some other system of choice, but that would not always be the case.


how much experience have you had with sport fighters?

Alot. As a matter of fact the gym I go to locally is self defense/muay thai/MMA school. I just so happen to be the only wing chun person there.

IME, more tma have ego problems than sport fighters. Why? because getting your a$$ kicked keeps your ego in check.
How about those who don't get their butts kicked for a while? You don't think they develop an ego problem? Point in case...we have one fighter in our gym who has yet to suffer a defeat. He has an ego like you wouldnt believe! I've told him, that one day there will be someone stronger and faster. Personally I have seen far more egos in sport fighting then any other experience in the martial arts in general. This is not to say that the ego doesnt exist in TMA, but the difference is that most TMA have nothing to prove from my experiences...whereas the fighter usually does...or else why would he be fighting? There is always a reason for doing what we do or don't do.

a mindset of "total" enlightenment? please elaborate.
Total enlightenment: Basically meaning that they try to improve more then just their ability to defeat someone in a ring.

And, that "conglomeration of techniques with no real 'style' " bit was WAY off.

1. boxers only train boxing. I wasnt talking about boxing with that statement.
2. thai boxers generally only train thai boxing I wasnt talking about muay thai either
3. mma guys mix striking and grappling. They generally have some background in one of the two styles though. Silva was a muay thai practitioner and recently earned his black belt in bjj. Noguiera is a bjj guy. there are olympic caliber wrestlers, champion thaiboxers... Most of the time, these guys have a base in something (usually grappling, but sometimes striking) then supplement it with something else.
so you're telling me that when they fight they only use one style at a time? Please. In high stress situations the body performs on muscle memory and spontaneous reaction. The fighter who has learned more then one style will use what is necessary when it's necessary, and therefore the "styles" that they at one time train in become one conglomeration of techniques. Most fighters use what works with no regard to what style it is.


That brings another question to mind...aside from the methodology of training, what differentiates the martial artist from the sport fighter as far as choice of style goes?

should there be a difference? you train wing chun. I train muay thai and judo mainly, but train bjj as well. muay thai is no less effective than wing chun. IMO, choice of style really makes no difference - it's more a matter of the individual picking a style that suits him.
Actually I train in wing chun and muay thai. And I have traing in BJJ as you have, as well as a couple shaolin systems, TKD, Kung jung mu sul, blah blah...who cares?! And I feel it's not so much the style but the person's ability to use that style(s) that they've chosen. There is an ongoing debate as to whether wing chun would work against the thai fighters, I have used wing chun on many of the fighters in my gym successfully. Did I use only wing chun? No. Because what I have learned through my years of training comes out when it comes out. But I have used it successfully. Does that mean that another wing chun person could do it? No. But I did and that's all that really matters. Can YOU do it is the real question. ( and I mean that generally not towards you personally.) It doesnt matter if one guy from school of wing chun can beat one guy from one muay thai school. That proves nothing as to whether or not YOU will be able to do it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Vankuen:

Excellent post!

[Ernie]

Vankuen
Can YOU do it is the real question. ( and I mean that generally not towards you personally.) It doesnt matter if one guy from school of wing chun can beat one guy from one muay thai school. That proves nothing as to whether or not YOU will be able to do it


[[[Can YOU do it is the real question.]]]]]

just had to say it twice , i think i might have shed a tear and a smle :D :D :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vankuen

Alot. As a matter of fact the gym I go to locally is self defense/muay thai/MMA school. I just so happen to be the only wing chun person there.

And you think that they muscle through everything?


How about those who don't get their butts kicked for a while? You don't think they develop an ego problem? Point in case...we have one fighter in our gym who has yet to suffer a defeat. He has an ego like you wouldnt believe! I've told him, that one day there will be someone stronger and faster. Personally I have seen far more egos in sport fighting then any other experience in the martial arts in general. This is not to say that the ego doesnt exist in TMA, but the difference is that most TMA have nothing to prove from my experiences...whereas the fighter usually does...or else why would he be fighting? There is always a reason for doing what we do or don't do.

As long as he continues to compete, he will eventually have his day. That's the beauty of it. Now the guys that don't compete - they don't see that day. So the ego tends to stay. I've had TMA guys tell me "boxers have no skill, they just stand there and slug eachother", and "in a real fight, just kick them in the nads or hit them in the throat". This tends to happen on a regular basis. That or they tell me how they will never go to the ground. All of the sport fighters I know are very open minded.


Total enlightenment: Basically meaning that they try to improve more then just their ability to defeat someone in a ring.

gotcha. I'm not sure that everything else isn't a byproduct though... you can learn discipline as a byproduct of training, same with humbleness and the history of your style. Spiritual development would be excluded though, granted.

so you're telling me that when they fight they only use one style at a time? Please. In high stress situations the body performs on muscle memory and spontaneous reaction. The fighter who has learned more then one style will use what is necessary when it's necessary, and therefore the "styles" that they at one time train in become one conglomeration of techniques. Most fighters use what works with no regard to what style it is.

right, but they still have a style. silva's style is muay thai and bjj. Can he use them both at will? sure. But training two styles doesn't make him styleless.


That brings another question to mind...aside from the methodology of training, what differentiates the martial artist from the sport fighter as far as choice of style goes?

IMO, not much. I think the biggest factor is the training method.

Actually I train in wing chun and muay thai. And I have traing in BJJ as you have, as well as a couple shaolin systems, TKD, Kung jung mu sul, blah blah...who cares?!

That's my point. For the most part, we agree, but we seem to differ here:

And I feel it's not so much the style but the person's ability to use that style(s) that they've chosen.

As stated, I don't think it's the individual. It's the training methods they employ.

But I have used it successfully. Does that mean that another wing chun person could do it? No. But I did and that's all that really matters. Can YOU do it is the real question. ( and I mean that generally not towards you personally.) It doesnt matter if one guy from school of wing chun can beat one guy from one muay thai school. That proves nothing as to whether or not YOU will be able to do it.

exactly. Welcome back to the forums...

[SevenStar]

just last night, a tma guy I used to train with came by the school. he looked at the setup and said "hmm...this looks like a real fighter's gym" and then broke into war stories of how he trained in a similar looking boxing gym when he was 14 and that he used to regularly beat adult marines. They all had previous MA experience, and he had at the time only been training 6 months.

He then went to talk about how he would hit the bag 2 hours straight. I was like "that's fine. I would hit it in 3 min rounds for 2 hours if I wanted to do that though, as opposed to 2 hours straight" he went on to say that he isn't training for the ring and that his eye gouges and fish hooks were a godsend for him while he was bouncing. He said that he only get really motivated when his life is at stake. He said plenty of other stuff, but you get the gist from this. His sifu isn't quite like that, but he is. he teaches wing chun and teaches/trains longfist.

I thought it was an interesting coincidence that we had this thread here, then last night he comes by saying what he said...

[captain]

maybe wing chun could do with a gi and gloves to get it more sport active?

Russ.

[SAAMAG]

yea, that is odd seven. It's obvious when people talk whether or not they are full of it. Personally I wouldnt stick anything in anyone's mouth that I didn't want coming off. (try not to take that the wrong way guys).

There are those whose ignorance feeds their ego and those whose ability feeds their ego.