IQ and Race

[Mika]

OK, it is time to stir the pot again :D

http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf

In Finland, these matters have been the talk of the town lately as the Prime Minister's father caused some controversy with one of his studies, and the police even thought about investigating his remarks. Anywho, that's neither here nor there, but there are well organized studies and publications covering this very, very controversial topic.

Mika

[SevenStar]

this is a flame war waiting to happen.... I'm keeping my mouse pointer close to the "close thread" function...

[ZIM]

To the contrary, this ought to be fun. Libs will argue it means precisely nothing, all the while pointing out that Red Staters have lower IQs. ;)

[SifuAbel]

press it. before its too late.

[Mika]

Maybe you're right, you know the folks here a 1000 x better than I do, but I do hope you are mistaken for once.

This is a scientific topic, and even if the task at hand might not lead anywhere, I would hope some discussion about sociobiology would emerge. That's my real goal. To keep the quick ones at bay, I wrote that "stirring up the pot". It's a subtle hint to think before posting.

Cheers :)

Mika

[Mika]

Before anyone posts anything, he or she should either read the article or otherwise be scientifically familiar with the topic. Naturally. Hearsays and opinions are not of great interest here.

Just wanted to make that clear :)

Mika

[Chang Style Novice]

Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-0393314251-0)

[IronFist]

Does anyone else hate .pdf files on the web?

We've talked about this before. There's been studies that said in intelligence it goes Asian, White, Black, and then there have been studies that refute that.

There have also been studies that said in terms of physical prowess it goes Black, White, Asian. Evidence of this can kind of be seen by the fact that blacks dominate every sport they play (not swimming or hockey because there's not a lot of black people who play those sports, demographically speaking). But look at NBA, MLB, and NFL. Exactly. I think there's also been studies that show that black people have genetically less myostatin, a muscle-inhibiting enzyme. Less myostatin would result in more muscle growth with less effort. It's worth noting that all myostatin-inhibitors (for use as supplements) they have tested so far have not worked and have caused some bad side effects in rats or something. Also worth mentioning is that one German 4 year old who is twice as muscular as every other kid his age; he has a genetic mutation that causes him to have less myostatin than normal people, hence bigger muscles.

Anyway, I've not seen any studies that say black people are less intelligent, but keep in mind that the demographics in a case study like this could have HUGE effects on the results. I wrote about this at length on another board once, and I don't feel like writing it again. But I'll see if I can find it later.

If you want to discuss this keep it on topic and civil. We don't need another good discussion getting deleted.

[Mika]

CSN, I hope you have done your background check on Gould.

Iron, that's right. I too hope we can go somewhere with this. We'll see...:)

[Chang Style Novice]

Background check? What, are you bothered by the fact that he's from a Jewish family and politically liberal?

Please explain yourself. Certain of Gould's theories are controversial, but the idea that intellegence is not racially determined is certainly not.

[Mika]

CNS, I am a little amazed at your assumptions. Please, refrain from them, OK?

If you are familiar with the literature (related to sociobiology), you should know how Gould is viewed. Even if the article behind the link is invalid, Gould never offers anything better. He has his reasons, I am sure, but those are not at question. Only what he writes is important, and what he does write is not considered scientific (at least his rants and raves about sociobiology). Gould (and a few others like him) never offer anything concrete to challenge a theory, they just - very Freudian of them - dismiss everything. Pathos.

A book by a Finnish author, Ullica Segerstråle, reveals the reasons for today's debate about sociobiology. She's been there, she's talked to all the key players. The book is called "Defenders of the Truth".

Mika

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i started reading this with an open mind, as i certainly believe in racial differences as i've made clear before, but this just seems retarded so far. im about half way through ... ill try to finish the entire thing before making a final judgement.

[Icewater]

My real name is Tonto Goldstein, but my friends call me 'Bubba'...

[FuXnDajenariht]

well....I dont think race matters for the simple fact that i believe in reincarnation. Meaning that people through out their many lives inhabited bodies from many different "races". Just depends on how best they will develop or what they can offer, or what lessons they need to learn.

Any differences you perceive in someones "intelligence" seems more cultural to me. If you take a person out of their element they can mentally develop any number of ways. Im trying to be pc about this but of course some cultures are more advanced than others, but it has nothing to do with race. Someone from a country believing heavily in superstition might very well make an American seem like Einstein, since out education system is based on science from the start.

Its obvious though, if you look through history that every "race" in the world has had their times of great achievement. Its all cyclical. One culture dies and another finds enlightenment. One region of the world might seem less advanced now but it probably hasn't always been that way or isn't likely to stay that way. Would European culture in the dark ages compare to now? They seem plain psychotic to us.

Oh yea...Plus im not white so i refuse to believe something like that. Its pretty absurd if you think about it all. Science/Darwinism taken out of context just like religion. All that IQ and race stuff is a modern invention. Back in ancient times anyone that wasn't part of your culture was usually backwards or barbaric but that was all politics like it is today, justification for oppression. Greek culture saw the good in Egyptian culture. Romans took ideas from Persians, their sworn enemies. who in turn traded culture with Asia.... South American culture could of rivaled anything in Europe...... ?

[FngSaiYuk]

OK, read it...

Conclusion- there are differences between people, but this paper does not prove anything beyond genetic predisposition for some groups and the effect of the environment. And really, the data presented is not by any means complete enough to draw any specific conclusions.

Bottom line is, everyone is born unique, has a unique life. One is born with certain genetic advantages and disadvantages, certain environmental advantages and disadvantages and certain amount of resources available to them throughout their lives. The use of resources, the decisions made by and for, and the circumstances life presents, or at times appears to force upon, one shape the person.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

why do i have to have a smaller *****?

[Chang Style Novice]

According to my hotmail inbox, you don't.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
According to my hotmail inbox, you don't.

It's - 'According to my hotmail inbox, you don't have to'

[FuXnDajenariht]

lol

maybe you hafta learn how to work with what u have? ;)

[SPJ]

IQ is a test to correlate with performance in class and not life in general.

Thomas Edison once said that invention is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. So in that sense, IQ is only 1% of factors to succeed.

There are hundreds of breeds of dogs. All seem to have the same IQ. Though, some like Yorkie, some like lab, some like pitbull etc.

Their physical attributes are different.

An African kid may have more sudden explosive powers and endurance. That is why they dominate in sports such as the basket ball etc.

What was the name I forgot. He was a basket ball player and a politician graduated from an Ivy league school (Princeton). He was the contender for the democratic presidential candidate in 2000.

If you know the answer, your IQ is high.

If you do not know the answer, then your IQ is still the same.

IQ like everything else is only arbitrary within a defined context.

[ZIM]

[waiting on Christopher M. to weigh in]

[FuXnDajenariht]

i can't even get the article open..... pdf sucks sumtimes

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
i can't even get the article open..... pdf sucks sumtimes

Right click on the link, select save target as, or save link as, or however your browser happens to word it, select a folder you can easily access later, download the file, then open it up in a .pdf viewer (check http://www.adobe.com for a free viewer).

[IronFist]

Originally posted by SPJ
IQ is a test to correlate with performance in class and not life in general.

Correct. Mensa is full of high school drop outs, and many of the richest people in the world have an average IQ.



If you know the answer, your IQ is high.

If you do not know the answer, then your IQ is still the same.


Memorization really has nothing to do with IQ. That's why there are usually no factual questions on an IQ test, like "Who was the 28th president of America?" If you know that it just proves that you have a good memory, not that you have a high IQ.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by SPJ
There are hundreds of breeds of dogs. All seem to have the same IQ. Though, some like Yorkie, some like lab, some like pitbull etc.


Actually, tests have revealed that different breeds of dogs have different levels of intelligence. I believe Border Collie was at the top and Poodle was at the bottom. It may have been Afghan Hound, tho, I forgot which.

The point is, tho, it's hard to test a dog's IQ because of a dog's unwillingness to take a test. You have to structure it such that the dog wants to pass the test (usually "get the food"), but has to use some thinking to do so.

Factors such as a dog's mood or demeanor may influence the outcome.

[mickey]

Greetings,

This thread is a new low for this forum.

I will not question the motivations for a paper such as this, but, there was a time when one of the original definitions for the word "economics" was: the determination of who gets what and why. That definition was buoyed by papers such as these and made the practice of inclusion/exclusion based on race acceptable and justifyable.

If you understand the game, there is nothing to flame.

mickey

[Mika]

7*, toldcha ;)

It went the way it should have. Mickey, I am not sure what you mean by your post ("a new low"): if you read my posts before, then you know my motivation, and if you read all the other posts, then you see what everyone else posted. No flaming, no namecalling, none of that crap.

Sooner or later I'll start another thread about altruism or something similar. I was just testing the waters here, and to 7*'s surprise, it was all good :cool:

BTW: That article is bull$****. For reasons y'all already stated.
You can only imagine the media frenzy a similar study produced here a short while back. Like I said, the police were investigating it, that's how seriously people take stuff like that here. And they should.

OK, we'll talk more later :)

//mika

[IronFist]

When a topic like this comes up there will always be the people who are too PC to discuss it. It sure would be a shame if to admit that one genetic line may have advantages over another in certain areas. Oh no! That's belittling someone's race! Uh-oh, you might hurt someone's feelings!

Hey all you PC'ers, can you at least admit that, genetically speaking, there's a difference between white and black people's skin colors? :rolleyes:

[mickey]

Mika,

I did not say that as a statement about you. And please do notice that there was no emotional upset within my post. I simply shared my understanding about how papers like those were used. For me, there is nothing to flame.

But in consideration of the stupidness that has been going on at our forums in the form of personal attacks, it was badly timed.

Try February next time:); or, even July 4th.

mickey

[mickey]

IronFist,

Those PC'ers should be busting their assiduities to agree with you.

I will share my observations based on years, and I mean years, of experience. I have amassed a research paper that is 2500 pages long. Unpublished because people cannot use it in their plan to include or exclude, to divert resources, nor to control the success or failure of a people.

Mika, please brace yourself in getting ready for this.:)

The difference between white skin and black skin:

One is deliciously vanilla; the other tasty chocolate.

As always, love conquers all.

Piece (that's not a mispelling)


mickey

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by IronFist
Actually, tests have revealed that different breeds of dogs have different levels of intelligence. I believe Border Collie was at the top and Poodle was at the bottom. It may have been Afghan Hound, tho, I forgot which.

The point is, tho, it's hard to test a dog's IQ because of a dog's unwillingness to take a test. You have to structure it such that the dog wants to pass the test (usually "get the food"), but has to use some thinking to do so.

Factors such as a dog's mood or demeanor may influence the outcome.

Dude... that test is lame. Why? Cos people call it "inteligence" test.
Well, its not an inteligent test -> it is an obediance and willingness to follow work orders test

[FuXnDajenariht]

haha so maybe poodles are badass nobody's ***** rebels.. :cool:

[unixfudotnet]

Does anyone else hate .pdf files on the web?

I saw a talk that Tim Berners-Lee ( http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/ ) gave at the Python 2003 conference in DC, and he wanted to make RTF files on the web and web everything, communicating everything. At least PDF files are supported easily on pretty much every platform and OS.

The problem is having a document with all those document abilities in a portable format. Now if only people would use OpenOffice ( http://openoffice.org ) instead of Microsoft Office suite, then it would really be nice :)

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
haha so maybe poodles are badass nobody's ***** rebels.. :cool:

:D
actually if i recall they did pretty good on that test... like 2nd or 3rd

[MoreMisfortune]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
why do i have to have a smaller *****?

yeah me too, but im taller and heavier than you... so its proportionally even more bad-er

[Kristoffer]

I havn't had any interest in reading either this thread or the article although I might later.

Someone posted that blacks dominate sports in America? Well that doesn't mean blacks are better at sport. Look who won the world championschip in basketball - the Yugoslavians. Which country aside from USA took most gold medals in the Olympics? Japan and Russia. So there, that's represtentatives from basically all races on the earth.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by MoreMisfortune
Dude... that test is lame. Why? Cos people call it "inteligence" test.
Well, its not an inteligent test -> it is an obediance and willingness to follow work orders test

It wasn't an obedience test. They had to dogs do some problem solving and stuff to see what they could do and how they did compared to other dogs given the same problem.

[MoreMisfortune]

dude, the test of the dude Stanley Coren is test of "Inteligence of Obedience and Work" - note im translating this from what i got in portuguese from an article based on what the dude did so if you find in english the terms might be lil diferent.

"Graduations from 1 to 10 - Corespondent ot the best dogs in terms of inteligence and obedience for work. Most of the dogs of this races start to show signs of comprehension of simple comands after 5 repetitions and dont need too much pratice to keep this comands..."

And so on, aight?

http://www.dogtimes.com.br/inteligencia.htm

[Mika]

Mickey, OK, gotcha. Timing could have been better, you're right. But I actually wanted to take some attention of the presidential elections as that thread is starting to get a little personal. Then again, this could get even more personal, but somehow I trust these guys more than that, so I think the "new low" was a little premature. But I might have to take that back. But I doubt it :)

At any rate, that study was 2000, here's the same guy 2002. Notice the slightly changed tone? ;)

http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/APADiv1Newsletter.pdf

Mika

[FuXnDajenariht]

Originally posted by MoreMisfortune
:D
actually if i recall they did pretty good on that test... like 2nd or 3rd

aaaah poodles still suck then...


fight da man!