What does Sifu mean?

[Printer]

I know stupid question.....

My school has at least 5 of them not to mention the guy who owns the place. These guys want to be called sifu (some don't even want their name used) so I do it out of respect.

I come from TKD where you had one "master" or sensai and a bunch of belts.

[vertical fist]

Here's another.
What does Sihing mean?

"Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do."

[Sihing73]

Hello,

To me Wing Chun is a family system. In this context Sifu means teacher father. He is the person whom you train under normally directly. He is responsible for insuring you are learning correctly and transmitting the system to you.

Sihing means elder brother. He is one who started learning before you and is normally considered your senior. This does not necessarily mean that he is better in terms of skill but that he is older in the system.

For a good list of terms check out the following link:
http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.htm

BTW: The above link is to the terms or Wing Chun as organized by Sifu Augustine Fong the link to his home page is:
http://www.fongswingchun.com/
Peace,

Dave

[wingchunalex]

in my experiece there should only be one real sifu at a school. unless there are a group of people who learned form the same "master" and who all have completed the system under him and are copetant to teach it. like if i ever opened a school with my kung fu brother who started at the same time as me and knows as much as i do we would both be sifu's. but if they are all just senoir students of the guy who owns the school, then they are all on an ego trip, or they are just using it to diferentieate between assistant teachers and the real sifu. like one time one of the beginners at the school i go to jokingly called my sifu, and i was like "no no no- im no were near that level". but he was just showing respect. so it could be either way, hopfully the second, humble way.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[whippinghand]

You only call one person (per style) Sifu.

[aelward]

SH73 is right on the ball from a linguistic point of view, and therefore, from a traditional Chinese martial culture point of view, as well.

The problem comes when Westerners attempt to equate these Chinese terms with English, or other languages which don't imply a familial relationships. For example, some people will think that "sifu" means "master", and therefore, "sigung" must mean "grandmaster."
Combined with the ego, people might come up with all titles for themselves; but in actuallity, Chinese modesty (real or fake) dictates that you do not put your title in front of your name in letters, speach, forum messages, etc. I once received an e-mail from a relatively famous sifu, who admitedly has quite an inflated ego. Yet, he did not sign his name "sifu xxx", but rather, just "xxx." On the other hand, I've seen tons of messages on forums where people insist on signing their name "sifu yyy."

Now, by language, there are two kinds of si-fu:
Sifu, where "si" = teacher, "fu" = teacher. Might equate to "master." You address teachers of other styles or lineages by this title.

Si-Fu, where "si"=teacher, "fu" = father. SH73 mentions this. Basically, your primary teacher.

Other terminology includes (with "si" = teacher):
Si-Hing, where "hing" = older brother. A male who began training before you, under the same Si-Fu.

Si-dai, where "dai" = younger brother. A male who began training after you, under the same Si-Fu.

Si-Je, where "je" = older sister. A female who began training before you, under the same Si-Fu.

si-mei, where "mei" = younger sister. A female who began training after you, under the same Si-Fu.

Si-Gung, where "gong" = grandfather. Your Si-fu's Si-Fu.

Si-Bak, where "bak" = "paternal older uncle". Your Si-Fu's Si-hing.

Si-suk, where "suk" = "paternal younger uncle." Your Si-Fu's Si-dai.

Si-go, where "gu" = "paternal aunt." Your Si-fu's si-je or si-mei.

To-dai, where "to" = "student," and "dai" = disciple. Your student.

To-sun, where "sun" = grandchild. Your to-dai's to-dai.

It gets even more complicated when you get into grand-uncles and aunts, but indeed, normal Chinese familial relations are a huge pain in the @ss.

The beauty (in my opinion) of all these lines is that they all contain the term "si", for teacher. To me, it means that you can learn from anyone, be it your own Si-Fu, his Si-hingdai, your Si-gong, or even your own juniors and seniors.

-------------------------------------------------
To answer a question about Chinese martial culture, which was brought up earlier, you SHOULD only have ONE Si-Fu. You address people of his generation by Si-Suk, Si-bok, or si-gu.

JK-
"Sex on TV doesn't hurt unless you fall off."

[Martial Joe]

I call my sifu John...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[Wongsifu]

technically there should only be one sifu, and sihing is your older training brother, if i started now and you came along in 5 years then i am your senior training brother hence sihing.
Sifu is the one dude the badass master of them all. who studied 30 years from the little old man in the mountains. THats it.
Oh and if one of the students would one day after thirty years become a master himself then the original sifu becomes a grandmaster sigung.

you see even though my teacher is a badass sifu, he never uses words like sigung to denote my sigung he just says to call him sifu's sifu, otherwise it would be denoting that he himself is a master already.
weird huh ??

So a school with 5 sifus is ermmm :D

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

[reneritchie]

I saw your name come up elsewhere and I thought I'd stop by and take a look. Seems like you run a great place here, and do a bang-up job of it. Moderation is never easy but if no one complained, you'd likely not be doing your job.

Anyway, in my experience there are two distinct terms pronounced sifu (shifu). The first is a religious/martial term with the characters Si (teacher) and Fu (father). This is strictly familial (the person who accepted you as a todai/toudi/student is your sifu, even if you're taught by seniors or anyone else as well).

The second uses the same Si (teacher) but adds a different Fu (teacher), to create a more generic honorific which can be used for other martial arts teachers as well as skilled chefs, craftsman, gamesmen, taxi drivers, etc. Generally, when you call someone other than your own martial or religious teacher "sifu", this is the one you use (traditionally 'surname' followed by sifu).

Sihing (Shiheng) combines Si (teacher) with Hing (elder brother) to mean a male classmate who began with the sifu before you (sijay/shijie for women). Unlike the second sifu, there is no honorific version for sihing and while you can call your own senior male classmate 'surname' sihing, you would not call someone else by that name as a title (though some organizations have now begun using it as a rank title junior to sifu).

Rgds,

Rene Ritchie

[EmptyCup]

Is this really Rene? as in the author of Complete Wing Chun with Robert Chu?

[Sihing73]

Hi Rene,

Nice to see you over here. You will find a few old timers, :p from the WCML here as well. KJ drops by from time to time and I just saw Pat Gordon a short time ago. Of course, we will have to keep you with the other 'Canadians' LOL.

I thank you for contributing and look forward to hearing more regarding the art we both love.

EmptyCup; Yes that is Rene Ritchie as in one of the authors of Complete Wing Chun. He is a definite asset, IMHO, to this board with a wealth of knowledge to share. (Hey Rene, I expect my check in the mail ;))

Peace,

Dave

[dzu]

Oy, there goes the neighborhood! They'll let anyone in nowadays. Watch out for Rene, everyone he has an agenda :D Glad to see you've found this forum. You've found yet another way to waste time during the day...

This place is a lot more low key compared to the WCML and some of these discussions are actually new to me ;) Plus I don't have 500 emails hitting my work mailbox.

A salute to you, Antony and your training brothers :D

Dzu

[kungfu cowboy]

Is this the Rene Ritchie that used to work as a Chippendale's dancer?!? :eek:

Hey, be nice I don't want to moderate anything today :)

****In answer to your question I don't belive so but then again you probably have more knowledge of the inner working of the Chippendales then I do :p LOL Sihing73****

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 08-29-01 at 02:01 PM.]

[kungfu cowboy]

Oops, that sure backfired!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> you probably have more knowledge of the inner working of the Chippendales then I do [/quote]

:D

[CLOUD ONE]

If you say there is only one you call "Sifu" per style.Is there only one student the Sifu calls per style???

[whippinghand]

??????