A Realist Talking - Joe Lewis

[YongChun]

http://www.realfighting.com/1102/index2frame.html
Got the link from this collection:
http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/multimedia.htm

“In my system, I came from a strong background of fighters, you work with fighters, you are taught by fighters, and you're discouraged to seek knowledge from those who are not fighters. In those days, Kung Fu practitioners were not known as competent fighters. – Joe Lewis”

“instead of Bruce establishing a personal rapport with me first and then attempting to show me how he could improve on what I was already doing as a fighter, he unintentionally, arrogantly condemned what I was doing and proceeded with a long discourse as to why his style was superior. – Joe Lewis”

“Coming from my weightlifting background, I had little respect for little guys. I didn't want any little guy attempting to impress me with his speed, his power, or his strength. …I was never fond of talkers, only doers. – Joe Lewis”

“Bruce had told him that, in his opinion, I was the greatest karate fighter in the history of the sport. To date, I've always taken that as the highest compliment of my career. – Joe Lewis”

“How could any rational person believe that they could stand that close to a good puncher with those seven openings, and believe that they're not going to get hit. Using this type of positioning, hands down, shoulders squared, and body unprotected, (often used in sticky-hand drills), would allow a good puncher to eat you alive. – Joe Lewis”

“ walk into any Jeet Kune Do school and ask the head instructor two simple questions.

1. What is singularly the most dominant principle that sets Jeet Kune Do apart as the unique martial art?

2. This is a simple, tactical question. What is the complete, accurate definition of broken rhythm?

I guarantee you will get answers ranging from a bunch of meaningless, Taoist nonsense to complete blanks. – Joe Lewis”

“Bruce showed me that the vertical punch was, in theory superior to the horizontal punch because it protected the centerline against a counter punch when attempted to be fired underneath the vertical punch. However, combat is a chaotic game of execution on the battlefield. You may have the greatest game plan or the ultimate tactics available, but if you lack the will or the fortitude to execute, the preparation is meaningless. – Joe Lewis”

“If you're close enough to where your opponent can pop you with a punch without stepping first, why are your hands way out in front of you instead of being next to your body? Why is the chin up instead of down? – Joe Lewis”

“the Wing Chung stylists. Typically, Wing Chung stylists are predominantly headhunters.
What do you do when you're up against a good body puncher? My point here is not to attack Bruce Lee's creation or any style. My point is simply this: Always question anything you are taught. – Joe Lewis”

“Why is it when the Japanese invaded China, all throughout the 30s, and ravaged that country, were not the Chinese able to use some of their secret martial arts' technology to ostracize the Japanese? – Joe Lewis”

“Forgive me. I am a realist; I have never really been positively or emotionally aroused by any martial arts demonstration. … Fortunately for me, I came from the real world, the world of weightlifting. I've never seen a person pretend or fake putting 500 pounds over his head. Point blank, no martial arts demonstration has ever intrigued me or impressed me. I'm sorry. When I witness a mere 198-pound man put over 500 pounds over his head, I am awesomely impressed.
– Joe Lewis”

“Top tournament fighters had no respect for Kung Fu stylists or the Chinese martial artists or little guys. – Joe Lewis”

“If you look at the facts Mike Stone dominated everything from 1964 to 1965, and then Chuck Norris came along and kind of took over and became as dominant, and then I took over for the next three or four years, people had to ask. The three most dominant fighters in the history of karate were all endorsing Bruce Lee. – Joe Lewis”

Ray

[mossman]

Not that it matters, but Joe Lewis awarded me my blackbelt in karate...when I was 14.:)

[YongChun]

What was he like as a teacher? How did he teach sparring?

Ray

[Vajramusti]

I have seen Joe Lewis "box"- by boxing standards he is a good karateka. He had done some wrestling- but IMHO he was not very mobile.

Lots of legends in their own minds.

[mossman]

Joe Lewis's student David Dise taught me. Joe was there to hand me the belt though, so I guess I could be like "Joe Lewis!!! woo!!!" It was basically point sparing. It was more kickboxing than karate if you ask me though. But I felt like I didn't really learn to fight. Because of my age I mainly gained confidence. So now I study kungfu, because I want to learn how to fight. ;)

[mantis108]

“Why is it when the Japanese invaded China, all throughout the 30s, and ravaged that country, were not the Chinese able to use some of their secret martial arts' technology to ostracize the Japanese? – Joe Lewis”

I wonder if Joe Lewis has heard of the Saber Squadran. Chinese did use CMA while battling the Japanese. But a war isn't always solely won on the battle field. There are always other forces at work. I respect Joe Lewis as a passionate and honest man (as I am taken by this interview). But he impresses me as someone who is opinionated and somewhat emotional (trait of an artist). His world seems to be not much gray in between. BTW, it is a great interview. Thanks for sharing that Yong Chun.

Best regards

Mantis108

[anerlich]

I wonder if Joe Lewis has heard of the Saber Squadran.

Me neither. Could you please elaborate?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I am appalled by these remarks made my Joe Lewis - but not surprised. I remember very clearly (and still have some old karate/kung fu magazines laying around somewhere from back in the 1970's) wherein he begrudgingly acknowledged having spent some time behind closed doors with Bruce Lee - and then began writing articles for the magazines wherein he talked about the 5 angles of attack (that he obviously learned from Bruce)...even demonstrating the moves in step-by-step photos - but NEVER mentioned where (who) he got the information from. (These articles appeared BEFORE the publication of the Tao of Jeet Kune Do).

I also met Dan Inosanto in 1979 (when he visited Moy Yat's school in New York)...and heard first hand who the people were who had spent some time with Bruce behind closed doors - and what THEY learned from him...Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Louis Delgado, etc.

The report that Dan gave us was that Lewis couldn't land anything on Bruce...although he acknowledged that Lewis was a good fighter. According to Dan - Mike Stone was the best of the bunch. (Lewis also once appeared on the Johnny Carson show back in those days - and in a candid moment - when asked about Bruce Lee...said that Bruce Lee was the fasted human being he had ever seen).

Joe Lewis WAS a good fighter in his day - no doubt...I saw him fight a few times when full contact Karate first came on the scene around 1974,75,76...but his reputation as an egotist who can't/won't acknowledge the talents of others has long been well known...and proceeded him everyhere he went.

[planetwc]

And more to the point, why would Lewis, the fighter, start and then CONTINUE training with someone he thought had no skill?

If he thought Bruce had skill and his only interaction was privately one on one, then how did he NOT have hands on interaction with Lee?

The whole article goes on and on about the lack of ability of kung fu guys, how the real karate guys all fought and kicked butt and tested themselves against one another by fighting.

So...why would a professed fighter train with someone who wasn't?

There are just so many inconsistencies about not gloving up and Lewis checking Lee's abilities. His other remarks in numerous articles are about the speed and skill of Bruce. So, it would appear that he would have had to have seen that and felt it firsthand. It was not as if Lee was just his "coach".

Why get coached by someone who in Lewis's own opinion came from arts which couldn't fight? Where would the value add be? Why not just stick with boxing and karate trainers then?

Why would Stone or Norris train with him either?

All of Bruce's other students gloved up and mixed it up with Lee, yet Lewis was the ONLY one who didn't? Bruce consistently manhandled guys bigger and physically stronger than him when he first started out in Seattle. Guys who were streetfighters and boxers--ie no novices to fighting.

What was Lee doing with Lewis then during their training--talking him to death about philosophy?

Just doesn't add up.

By the way I have footage of Mike Stone training with Bruce Lee. Man was that guy SMOOOOTH. He was the best looking guy in terms of how he moved and executed. Given how he looked in the 60's his skill level now must be amazing. He was the BEST performing guy out of the bunch at that point in time.

[planetwc]

Q
What is your honest impression about Bruce Lee, some people still say, he was an excellent theorist and coach, but due to his small size wasn’t that effective against bigger men?

Skipper
I truly liked and admired Bruce. I worked with him some and he helped me in my foot movement and back fist. Bruce probable weighed 135 pounds at most, but he could hit like a mule. I know, because he knocked me under Sharon Tate’s barstool at Columbia Pictures in 1968. Bruce never confronted any big men to my knowledge. There are stories out there, but none I personally know of. I will say this; I would have picked Bruce in any street situation. He had the knowledge and the attitude to carry him through anything.

Q
What was Bruce Lee’s contribution to your skills?

Skipper
Bruce Lee worked with me at tournaments on hand techniques and foot movements. I believe I am the only one from out of town and not really in his inner circle of close friends that he took the time to work with. He was a special guy, good friend and someone that I have a lot of fond memories of.

[planetwc]

Lewis is now also selling a book on JKD.

You can see it at http://www.bruceleebook.com/

http://www.bruceleebook.com/exlcusive_chapter.html
covers

A Typical Private Lesson with Bruce Lee



"Bruce requested that I not wear a karate gi. Instead, he preferred sweat slacks, a T-shirt or cut-off sweatshirt, and sneakers. Track shoes were becoming popular in California at that time. When I trained, he always wanted me to wear sneakers. There were a couple of reasons. First, they offered better traction when you "squeezed the trigger" to do any type of movement. Second, when we did leg obstructions (a type of low side-kick to the shin bone) we sometimes wore fiberglass shin guards, and sneakers prevented our feet from getting fractured.


He didn't require me to bring my own mouthpiece, headgear, or boxing gloves. He provided the headgear at that time. The only gloves he had were "kendo" gloves. With a great deal of padding across the top of the metacarpals and the knuckles in the front of the hands, these gloves offered wrist protection against a kendo stick, but the ends of the fingers were exposed, which makes it easy for the kendo fighter to grip the handle of the stick. We used full kendo protection gear back in the early and mid-1960s in Okinawa for our sparring sessions. This type of equipment is very dangerous to use, but it was the only thing available."

So they obviously had contact with each other if they were gloving up and using headgear and mouthpiecs.


was lucky because Bruce was a great advocate of substance. He would notice sometimes that I was a little tighter than I should be at the beginning of my trigger squeeze. He explained that the tightness was not only telegraphing my initial move, but it was also slowing down my speed and taking away from my power. Now, anyone trying to fine-tune my trigger squeeze would have had to be an acknowledged master. I was already a U.S. National and World Champion. I was not only winning fights and titles with the side-kick, I was putting top black belts in the hospital with it. However, Bruce was that acknowledged master. He could see beyond what we top fighters thought we knew.


Many of the top fighters could not understand why I was working so much with a Chinese guy who taught me kung fu. In those days, few kung fu stylists ever competed with success in open tournament fighting. They were simply not known as fighters or competitors. This really confused and puzzled the circuit fighters, because my fighting skills were not only dominating them, but I was getting better, while many of them were not.


That's about the time the questions started coming my way, such as "What is Bruce Lee showing you that's helping you improve? What are his secrets? Can you tell us anything?" Of course, Bruce repeatedly told me not to ever show anyone or tell anyone his secrets or his material. Although our private sessions never really amounted to the kind of hard workout in which either of us broke a sweat, the efficacy of the knowledge I was acquiring was remarkable. Quite simply, the stuff worked.

[Vajramusti]

Many of Lewis's remarks over the years have been self contradictory or self serving or both.

Could be immaturity or hit in the head once too often.

In some movie set, Carradine kicked him in the nuts. Not part of the script. Lewis said
that he didnt respond because Carradine had more "authority"
on the set.

Among other things BL taught him explosive start up from standstill. That and some boxing hands carried him past the other karatekas in tournaments.

But by boxing standards- man were his hands slow.

After benefitting from BL in different ways-now that BL is gone- ego shows up

[Ultimatewingchun]

"By the way I have footage of Mike Stone training with Bruce Lee. Man was that guy SMOOOOTH. He was the best looking guy in terms of how he moved and executed. Given how he looked in the 60's his skill level now must be amazing. He was the BEST performing guy out of the bunch at that point in time."

David:

Would love to see the footage of Mike Stone and Bruce. Maybe we could trade some video? I remember reading about Stone's point tournament career...think I remember reading how people were intimated by him because he made a lot of bare knuckle contact and kicked very hard...and that he never lost a point tournament competition - if I remember correctly. He's also the guy that stole Priscella away from Elvis Presley.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I also met Dan Inosanto in 1979 (when he visited Moy Yat's school in New York)... What was your opinion of Dan's Wing Chun skills at that time?

[YongChun]

On the surface at least it seems this new book is just trying to cash in on Bruce Lee's name since it gives an opposite idea from the interview at the start of this thread that Bruce Lee was not really a fighter.

Ray

[Ultimatewingchun]

"What was your opinion of Dan's Wing Chun skills at that time?' (KF)

He didn't have much real wing chun knowledge at that time - just the basic principles that Bruce had adapted to the JKD style. Bruce had not taught much of the finer points of chi sao to him, for example. Which is not to say that Dan wasn't a good fighter...his knowledge of empty-hand JKD and the stick arts was very impressive.

But he was there because he wanted to learn Wing Chun from Moy Yat - which became something of a disappointing story.

Moy Yat's best student at that time was a guy named John Cheng. John had a black belt in kempo karate before joining Moy Yat - and was a big fan of Bruce Lee.

John and I were also good friends and worked out a lot together in the school - and since I was a big Bruce Lee and JKD fan myself - and since we both had some misgivings about certain parts of the Moy Yat curriculum (very little hard sparring and the classical wing chun footwork - the effectiveness of which both of us had doubts about)...

I suggested to John that we start working out privately....which we did once a week for a period of about maybe six months...gearing up with gloves, headgear, chest protrector, shin and knee pads...and tried to put Bruce's ideas about contact sparring, bridging-the-gap footwork (5 angles of attack), the low lead sidekick, etc...together with the infighting hands we were learning from Moy Yat at the closer range.

The results were very positive for both of us.

As fate would have it ...John worked for AT & T at the time - and they sent him on a business trip for a week to California - DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET from Inosanto's JKD school....and John being one of the most amiable of guys...simply walked into Dan's school at 6 pm that Monday night - introduced himself - and was invited by Dan to participate....which he did every night that week.

Dan was very impressed with John's skills - especially the infight wing chun hands that John brought to the table...long story short...Inosanto actually paid Moy Yat's planefare to come to California soon after John's visit.

Moy Yat went out for a week with John and some other guys (I was invited but didn't have the cash at the time)...and then when Moy Yat moved his school from Brooklyn to the Chinatown area of Manhattan a few months later...Inosanto flew to NY for the grand opening of the school (it was myself, Moy Yat, and Mickey Chan who picked him up at JFK airport).

He spent a week here in New York.

Inosanto was paying $ to Moy Yat during this period - expecting to learn more details of what he saw JOHN doing...but in the end...was disappointed - learned very little from Moy Yat other than some basic chi sao and wing chun principles - with very little real fighting applications.

The relationship ended soon after the New York visit.

[mantis108]

Here's a quote:

<<<According to Scott Rodell, the 2-handed "Da Dao" was used by Nationalist troops in the 1930s-40s as a close-quarters
weapon during planned ambushes on Japanese
soldiers in appropriate terrain such as tall grass
or paddy fields, and by artillery soldiers to
defend themselves when their lines are over-run by
the enemy. The Chinese Red Army was also similarly equipped.
The weapon was a direct descendent of the Ming Dynasty sword-polearms shown above.>>>

and the link:

Saber Squadron (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo6.html)

If you scroll down to the bottom, you will see the actual pictures of the troops geared with the saber. I know that my Grandteacher, Lam Yiu Kwai. from Lung Ying (Dragon Style) was teaching his style to the Canton military as well although I am not sure of the exact curriculum. BTW, Many other CMA masters at the time taught the military as well. One thing is for sure, it is not just hand to hand. Chinese MA isn't just about hand to hand. It is increasingly so but I think Joe Lewis' comment here is a bit "confused".

Regards

Mantis108

[russellsherry]

hi guys , everytime, you think joe lewis has calmed down, well i won" go to far , in a old english magazine interveiw joe bagged bruce badly he said ' i did not think i could learn anything about kung fu from a guy who talked about fighting from a spider stance now that is not how he said it like that but it was along those lines,then for some reason lewis started being nicer re death by misadventure dvd, but i also think sifu vic is right i saw
mike stone on the warrior within dvd he was unreal would have cleaned lewis out anytime of day peace russell sherry