New London Northern Mantis Kung Fu school website [Archive]

FEELERSTRIKE

11-11-2004, 11:17 AM

I have never heard of this branch of Tang Lang before , has anyone ever come across it before ?
Not to seem rude but shouldnt forms be taught earlier on than five years ? Forms are the basis of Tang Lang , how can you train in tang Lang without them ?
How can you be a senior student / instructor without training forms ? Where do the techniques come from that you use ? 50 forms are a vast amount to start 5 years into your training . :confused:

ursa major

11-11-2004, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
... Not to seem rude but shouldnt forms be taught earlier on than five years ? Forms are the basis of Tang Lang , how can you train in tang Lang without them ? ....

Well, you have to give the instructor time to learn the forms first eh? :D :D :D

OK JUST KIDDING !

Maybe that is how they were taught in that line?

UM.

FEELERSTRIKE

11-11-2004, 02:38 PM

You could be right :) it is a branch I am not familiar with , could be a new approach ? :rolleyes: If it works , then use it .

BeiTangLang

11-11-2004, 07:31 PM

Your in-country,...go check it out for us! :)

FEELERSTRIKE

11-12-2004, 12:46 PM

I would like to but unfortunately I have club nights Monday to Thursday and do not live locally to our capital , but if I get a chance I will . It would be good if the guys from that branch would kindly give us more information on who they are and what they do as their site only gives very limited information .:D

Hua Lin Laoshi

11-12-2004, 01:52 PM

Getting back to the London Mantis website it's unfortunate that there isn't enough substantial information there to determine what the style is about. At first I thought it might be a variation of Wah Lum from Sifu David Hawkins (ex-WL who switched to CLF) but after viewing the website it's obviously something else.

ironox

11-14-2004, 03:28 AM

Corja shantung is a northern mantis system.

you can log on to Sifu Alims website : www.northernmantis.co.uk

Sean

Hau Tien

11-14-2004, 03:41 AM

http://www.frixo.com/sites/mantis/sifualim-poster.jpg

Hmm... I don't know much about the system... but... a combination of Tae kwon do, jiu jitsu, judo, and praying mantis? Maybe it's just my lack of experience, but that seems a little off to me?

FEELERSTRIKE

11-14-2004, 07:12 AM

Ironox ,
Hello and welcome to the community . I am afraid I have never come across your branch before but it will be good to have your opion on this forum .

BeiTangLang

11-14-2004, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by ironox
Corja shantung is a northern mantis system.

you can log on to Sifu Alims website : www.northernmantis.co.uk

Sean

Ironox, welcome to the forum.

The members for the most part here are all traditional praying mantis practitioners from around the world. They know what mantis looks like and have a grasp of what is in it.

They need to know more about a system than an obscure story to convince them that they system protrayed is legitimate; The Corja site does not do this. All it does is send the all to familiar alarms of being made up.
No, I am not saying that it is made up, but that the website sends that alarm to most of us here.

Thanks for posting & we are looking forward to more information on the Corja school.

Hua Lin Laoshi

11-14-2004, 08:58 AM

Well the website makes the claim that it is the original NPM yet offers no lineage. Definitely a red flag. With all the historians here I'm sure nothing less than verifiable documentation will suffice.

"My teacher told me so" just isn't going to cut it.

If it is a verifiable offshoot then it could open up a new perspective on the history of NPM.

We're all eagerly waiting to hear.

FEELERSTRIKE

11-14-2004, 11:18 AM

It would be interesting to know more as the northern mantis scene in the U.k. is not overly large but has been quite well established for many years with my shifu being a strong promoter of the 7 star branch as passed on to him by his master Mo Lam for nearly 30 years .

ironox

11-14-2004, 01:17 PM

Hi All, Firstly this is not my system, I'm a teacher of Iron ox Praying mantis, ( Dit Ngau Hakka tong long)

I have known Sifu Alim for Over 20 years, He is a Highly skilled martial Artist and a very good teacher.

I can assure you he knows his lineage, There are a lot of sites that don't list the lineage of their styles this does not mean that its made up.

I will try to find out a little more history about the shantung praying mantis style, i will pop and see Sifu Alim Shortly.

With regarding the historians of mantis how many of you speak , read and write chinese? or have seen their systems or family books that get handed down from sifu to sifu? . These are almost always kept secret from Gwailo's. So apart from the common History of the styles on the net or whats been told by the instuctor maybe or may not be true.

sEan

BeiTangLang

11-14-2004, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by ironox
mantis style, i will pop and see Sifu Alim Shortly.

With regarding the historians of mantis how many of you speak , read and write chinese? or have seen their systems or family books that get handed down from sifu to sifu? . These are almost always kept secret from Gwailo's. So apart from the common History of the styles on the net or whats been told by the instuctor maybe or may not be true.

sEan

R&R? Off-hand, I can think of about 5. Thats just the ones I know of.

FEELERSTRIKE

11-15-2004, 05:15 AM

Ironox , what you say is sometimes true , but not always ! I have come across the same predudice within the TMA community but just because I am not chinese does not mean what I have been told or am taught is not correct . My shifu uses his English name which is what his family wanted and has not used the chinese name that was given to him by his father since he was a child in Hong Kong . I am lucky enough to be a close family friend as well as a student of my shifu and so do know where our Tang Lang has come from . I have seen the photos of our late grandmaster that my shifu has and have been lucky enough to hear the storys of his training from his family .
One of the most important factors in traditional martial arts is not who taught you but who taught them !! The history of your lineage and the developement of the style is a treasure that must be kept alive and passed down to the next generation for it shows who you are . It is good to introduce new ways for people to learn but not at the expense of losing the traditional form and movement names . Again they are all there for a reason . We do not use the chinese names for the techniques mainly because all the students that have been through our school doors since I have been there do not speak or understand chinese so using English is far more successfull . This is progress but do not knock it . I'll get off my soap box now or am I the only one to feel this way ?

Hua Lin Laoshi

11-15-2004, 07:20 AM

All styles are made up. Some recent, some long ago, and some are based off other styles. That's not an issue here and I don't think anyone intended to accuse Alim Sifu (or his teacher) of making it up.

Maybe you don't know what you're getting into but there are quite a few members here who read chinese and have been studying the history of PM (all branches, not just their own) for many years.

The problem is that we don't have enough information to even guess at whether it's really PM or something else. And claiming to be the original NPM is a pretty bold statement. Any information you can provide would be a great help. BTW, it can get a little rough around here so don't take things too personal. Just explain your position and I'm sure a good discussion will follow.

On a side note I have no clue what Iron Ox Praying Mantis is either. How does your style fit into the NPM family?

BeiTangLang

11-15-2004, 07:34 AM

Iron Ox is, I believe, a Southern Mantis Style.

KungFuLondon

11-15-2004, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
They need to know more about a system than an obscure story to convince them that they system protrayed is legitimate; The Corja site does not do this. All it does is send the all to familiar alarms of being made up. No, I am not saying that it is made up, but that the website sends that alarm to most of us here.

I posted the link in case anyone is interested in training, I think the best think you can do is go and have a look at the class and have a spar with some of the students if you want to find out more rather than just talk about the linage which has not been posted on the website.

Can any of you honestly tell me your styles have not been altered since they were designed? If Sifu Alim has decided to teach his style that way then that is what he believes works, please do not disrespect him if you have never met him simply because his style appears to differ slightly from yours.

If you're in the UK you may have seen some of the school winning various competitions (inc. BCCMA), if not then keep an eye out in future.

BeiTangLang

11-15-2004, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by KungFuLondon
I posted the link in case anyone is interested in training, I think the best think you can do is go and have a look at the class and have a spar with some of the students if you want to find out more rather than just talk about the linage which has not been posted on the website.

If I lived anywhere near there I would be glad to. All I did was ask.....sorry if you have a problem with that. I was not the only one to make the querry. So is the lineage information available to a prospective student that walks in off the street?

Originally posted by KungFuLondon

Can any of you honestly tell me your styles have not been altered since they were designed? If Sifu Alim has decided to teach his style that way then that is what he believes works, please do not disrespect him if you have never met him simply because his style appears to differ slightly from yours.

I have never seen nor heard of the style, which is why I asked you the question. If you'll note, " No, I am not saying that it is made up, but that the website sends that alarm to most of us here.", kinda says that.
All I was asking is where did the art that he teaches come from. An originating chinese branch perhapse could be mentioned? As another member stated, it would be interesting to find out the answers & to see what it looks like. This would open up a whole new set of questions & possibly answers to other questions for the mantis historian types in the forum.

Originally posted by KungFuLondon

If you're in the UK you may have seen some of the school winning various competitions (inc. BCCMA), if not then keep an eye out in future.

I'm not in the UK, so I guess I'll just have to keep an eye out.

Oh,...one more question; "If Sifu Alim has decided to teach his style that way then that is what he believes works.."
Teach his style what way??

Thanks for taking the time to post! I look forward to more information!
~BTL

TPM

11-15-2004, 06:22 PM

Hi All
I have come across this as one of the students in Sifu Alim's class advised me of what is going on in this forum and to be honest i find it very interesting.

I can see that there seems to be a question on the lineage that links Alim with Northern Mantis. The website clearly states the name of his teacher and also gives a very brief summary of his teacher stating that he migrated from China to Indonesia. So the question should be who did his teacher train with????

Some more information for you guys is that the website is not actually Alims website, it is a website about Corja Shantung Kungfu and he is the Chief Instructor of the system at the moment. The website has been put together by some of his students with a bit of his help.

As for the Lineage i would let Alim reveal that to the rest of the world when he wants to as that is up to him and i can let you know now that none of his students know the lineage as Alim does not speak much about his history (he prefers to teach).

At the end of the day i am sure anyone training in Gungfu and has a good knowledge of the system they are training in will have their own views on different things. A good example is me.... I really do not care who taught my Sifu Kung fu just as long as i am learning and continue to improve (you never know, one day i might care). When i was Schoot i never asked any of my teachers who taught them (I know Kung Fu is different bt this is just an example)

Anyone in the UK knows about the BCCMA (the governing body for chinese martial arts in the UK) and Alim has been a member for well over 15 years and he is well respected amongst diffferent Mantis Masters in the UK.

However it is nice to hear other peoples views and i do agree with the quote "because my teacher told me so is not good enough". I doubt Alim would ever say this without explaining himself.

May The Force Be With You
TPM

KungFuLondon

11-15-2004, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by BeiTangLang

Oh,...one more question; "If Sifu Alim has decided to teach his style that way then that is what he believes works.."
Teach his style what way??

Hey buddy,

Well people were questioning not learning forms for 5 years or something, Sifu Alim tends to break forms down and focus on the basics, it is not till you have been going for a few months you start to learn your first form. The system concentrates mroe on the basics than forms at first and as you progress you learn 2 man forms (every form has an attacking and defending side so you fuly understand what you are doing).

Best regards,

KFL.

Hua Lin Laoshi

11-15-2004, 07:39 PM

Seems people will question anything. First it's too much forms training now it's not enough forms training. Ya just can't win.

Anyhow, no need to get defensive guys. Just polite inquiries so far. If this was on the main forum it would be ripped to shreds by now.

If Alim Sifu wishes to field some questions it would be awesome. However there seems to be some inconsistencies and I believe it would be in his best interest to offer some additional info before everyone passes judgement based on what we know now.

For instance the website claims Corja Shantung is the original NPM yet

"Can any of you honestly tell me your styles have not been altered since they were designed? If Sifu Alim has decided to teach his style that way then that is what he believes works, please do not disrespect him if you have never met him simply because his style appears to differ slightly from yours."

Is it original or altered? Does it appear to differ from ours is a question we can't answer because we don't know what it looks like, what sets are involved, what moves are in the system, etc.

That's why we question it, not because we think he's a fake. I'm all for giving people the benefit of doubt until something comes along to change that opinion.

"The website clearly states the name of his teacher"

Apparently his teacher is not well known in the Mantis community.

sayloc

11-15-2004, 09:51 PM

I tried to stay out of it but......

What does corja mean or translate to ?

ironox

11-16-2004, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
Iron Ox is, I believe, a Southern Mantis Style.

Hi beitanglang You are correct Dit Ngau is a southern hakka system which i have been training in for almost 20 years now.

What Style of Northern mantis do you practice?

sean

ironox

11-16-2004, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by sayloc
I tried to stay out of it but......

What does corja mean or translate to ?

corja is an indonesian name that Sifu Alim uses. It does not relate to the style of mantis he teaches.Which is Shantung Northern mantis..

Maybe His students could list a few names of the forms ..

ironox

BeiTangLang

11-16-2004, 05:37 AM

I train under the WHF family of 7*.

BeiTangLang

11-16-2004, 08:42 AM

Hey buddy,

We do approximatly the same thing. 5 years is a bit much! LOL!

Have you observed any other mantis styles? How do the systems look the same/diferent?

I noticed in quite a few of the images from the sites I looked at that the system sems very aerial. Is this common or are these moves just for public demo's?

Thanks for your input.
~BTL

FEELERSTRIKE

11-16-2004, 12:02 PM

Hello TPM and KungFuLondon . It is good to have some input from your school . :) Please do not be on the defensive as we are not being rude it is just general interest . The Northern Mantis community is a very closed circle in the U.K. with not many qualified Shifus and yes they all do know each other as a couple have been here promoting their mantis for many years .
We may not have crossed paths before as we do not affiliate to the BCCMA and have not entered tournaments for many years . It was about 1996 in Milton Keynes at the WOMAT tournament that we first came across a school doing northern mantis . After polite enquiries into what branch we were rudely told there was only one style of northern mantis and to go away . It was like nothing we had ever seen before . This is why I may appear to be rude .
Mantis boxing is alive and strong in the U.K. ( I have been lucky enough to either know or have trained with many of the major players here ) . It is good to know you guys are out there and promoting your branch of the style .
I can recommend the Mantis Quarterly Magazine for you guys to read as it will give you all a better understanding of the rest of us and what is important to us about are mantis boxing ;)
Again please do not judge us, some of us are just interested in mantis boxing and having not come across you before would like to know more about you .
Out of interest which other mantis Masters in the U.K. do you know of ?:confused:

KungFuLondon

11-16-2004, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
[B]Have you observed any other mantis styles? How do the systems look the same/diferent?

I noticed in quite a few of the images from the sites I looked at that the system sems very aerial. Is this common or are these moves just for public demo's?

Yeah mate, a lot of the system is firmly on the ground, I think TPM could answer this better than me though!

I have seen a couple of other mantis (northern) styles at the BCCMA, I wasn't especially impressed, I have a friend who does a form of southern mantis though who I thought was excellent. I rpefer the footwork of the northern styles though.

KungFuLondon

11-16-2004, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
After polite enquiries into what branch we were rudely told there was only one style of northern mantis and to go away . It was like nothing we had ever seen before . This is why I may appear to be rude .

I can assure you that you would not that reception from anyone at my school.

As regards schools I have not seen many northern stylres in London, most seem to be southern, eg. paul whitrod.

TPM

11-16-2004, 05:49 PM

Hi Feelerstrike and everyone else.
Just to let everyone know i was not being defensive in anyway as i actually have nothing to defend. The website is not mine and i am not the founder of Corja Shantung Mantis Kungfu System, However i have been training in that system for quite a while and i am one of the Seniors in the class (all seniors have passed the instructors examination). What did shock me was that no one actually asked about the actual Kungfu in the system, everyone was more concerned about history of the style and its origin (dont get me wrong, history is important).

I have met Sifu Derick Fearson (sorry if i have spelt the name wrong) and another Sifu of 7 star Praying Mantis who teaches in East London ( I have forgotten his name but he is quite well known in Mantis circles at least in the UK).

For those in the UK, you know where we are based, when you have the time please come down and visit. If you want let me know when you are comming down and i will make sure i am in the class and i will introduce you to Alim and yu can ask him the questions that you want, although i dont think he will give you much information.

I cant remember who it was but someone in the forum was asking about the pictures on the website. Well apart from the competition section the rest of the pictures are during demonstrations and are not he actual techniques.

May The Force Be With You

BeiTangLang

11-16-2004, 05:58 PM

Thanks for replying.

For me, the reason I didn't ask untill later is that if I know the lineage & I can find it, I know approximately what kind of kf he teaches by default.

I also asked if the similarities/differences between what you guys do & what other mantis guys do, if you have had the chance to observe them.

I was the one that asked about the images,..thanks for answering!

Looking forward to hearing more about the system.
~BTL

sayloc

11-16-2004, 07:01 PM

TPM

Why dont you think your sifu will give any information?

Im not trying to be disrespectful but I just dont understand why so secretive?

Most people would enjoy hearing the history and theories of the system just because they may learn about something different.

Maybe he just doesnt want to share or be bothered?

Have a good day

Oso

11-16-2004, 07:37 PM

What did shock me was that no one actually asked about the actual Kungfu in the system,

Actually, that was the first question:

Any more info on the curriculum? Forms taught?

Still very curious as to the forms and curriculum.

Thanks.

Hua Lin Laoshi

11-16-2004, 07:40 PM

I'm going to bail out of this one unless the Corja group decides to share some info. I just think it's a little odd (and rude) to go through the trouble of making a public announcement that the schools website is up and then retreat when people ask a few questions. If you want to stay private then that's fine, just don't go attracting attention to yourself by making public announcements.

BTW TPM, around here if you say you train Northern Mantis the first question everyone asks is "what lineage?" Nobody asks about the actual kung fu because, well, they already know it's NPM. Knowing which lineage tells them the flavor and which sets are involved. Since Corja Shantung has numbered sets it's pretty much useless asking which sets you play. Answers like 3, 6 and 7 mean nothing to them.

FEELERSTRIKE

11-17-2004, 01:03 AM

TPM ,
Shifu Derek Frearson is the U.K. representative of Lee Kam Wings lineage in the U.K. and most of the instructors you will come ascross down south are from his branch . All the others are from up country with my Shifu Paul Drummond in the midlands , Derek Frearson in Leicester and Shifu Michael Lee in Yorkshire area . All of us are from the 7 Star branch of northern praying mantis . :D

TPM

11-17-2004, 03:08 PM

Hi All
Hua Lin Laoshi, i understand why people would want to know the history of Corja Shantung Mantis, however The People who have set up the website do not have the family tree of Alim and maybe something can be learnt from this. Sometimes it might be best not to start something without the full information at the same time as KungfuLondon has pointed out that the website was posted here so that people who were or are looking for a Northern Mantis system in the area could be aware that one does exist.

As for Alim, he will continue running his school as he always has. History or the family tree is nothing something that he shares easily and to be honset i already know that his own teacher is not known as i searched for some evidence of him years ago and came up with nothing. If you are a student of Alim's then you will get an answer from him ( i must admit that it could take about 2years for the full and complete answer)

The system is tought in a number format system and i believe that this is just to break down the language barrier however there is a name for every form that is done. As you know it takes some people up to 5 years before they actually start doing the Shantung Mantis Forms and you will have to get to that level before you know the actual name.

For the benefit of everyone in that has contributed to this forum i will ask Alim when i next get the chance of what he thinks about sharing his family tree with the rest of the world (him being secret all this time could be to avoid some of the comments that have appeared in this forum). If he agrres then i will see if the www.northernmantis.co.uk can be updated to include this, if he disagrees then i guess Corja Shantung in the eyes of many is not ready at this point to answer questions in this forum. I will post a reply once i have spoken to him.

In the mean time keep training, keep researching, never stop training and understand Kung Fu .

What amazes me is how someone has to prove him or herself whatever the situation when there is very little or nothing to prove in the first place.

May The Force Be With You

shirkers1

11-17-2004, 04:54 PM

Okay I was staying out of this, but come on... Maybe it's just an american thing. But if I'm interested in something I look into it. If I have questions about it then the person I'm asking should have an answer, other wise red flags will go up that maybe this cat doesn't have a clue what he's doing. This secret stuff is for the birds. Be a basement school, don't advertise, and don't expect a serious student who wants to learn that particular style. Unless that student really doesn't want to put a label on his training. If that's the case then why even say it's NORTHERN MANTIS. Just call it kung fu or MA. Being secretive is why all of these questions are being asked. If you know the lineage then you pretty much know the style and flavor just like BTL stated. What is so wrong with saying where you learned your kung fu from. Not everyone knows my teacher, a lot of people do. But if I go back to who taught him and so on someone will know what I'm talking about. I just don't see what the big deal is. I'm actually planning a trip to london soon, so hopefully I can check in on this school.

mark

MantisCool

11-17-2004, 10:19 PM

I think Corja Shantung Mantis means Traditional Shantung Mantis.

Corja can be a "hokkien" word meanng traditiional. In mandarin, it is "Gu Zao". A lot of Indonesian chinese speak hokkien and therefore the word "Corja" is used.

Nowadays, many restaurants especially Taiwanese are using the work "Gu Zao", to emphasis their recipes and food.

Tainan Mantis

11-18-2004, 06:50 AM

Mantiscool,
I like it.
Gu Zao=corja.
Seems very likely now that you mention it.
Zhang Dekuei himself said gu tang lang.

It would be nice if the Corja school could add to the growing body of historical knowledge of Mantis.

There are many aspects of Guzao Mantis that seem to no longer exist.
Maybe they can be found in this school.

FEELERSTRIKE

11-18-2004, 01:34 PM

Shirkers1 , When you visit the U.K. then you are welcome to visit my shifus school if you have time . We are about an hour and a half journey north of London and I'm sure you would be most welcome .( Near George Washingtons birth place ).

FEELERSTRIKE

11-18-2004, 01:43 PM

TPM ,
My shifu has never advertised for students , our school has always been through word of mouth and as such the intake does vary but he has always been willing to share information about his branch of 7 star with anyone who has an interest in it and has always taught openly to anyone . Some info will always be kept secret ( for a select few only ) .
We are having a seminar on the 5th of December if you are interested to see what 7 star mantis should look like and you would get to meet some of the main 7 star guys in the U.K. and I.m sure if you have any thoughts or questions then hopefully you will find some answers along with some good kung fu .:)