contracts

[sonnychiba]

Would anyone here sign a contract (12months) to attend a school? The only way to break it is to move away from the area.

[emre]

I wouldn't.

[Dark Knight]

Most schools are going to contracts. If you like the instructor it isnt too bad.

Tell him you will do a six month contract

[red5angel]

nope, I won't sign any contracts at all. Contracts are a focal point for a monetary concern. If someone wants to come in and take classes, they shouldn't have to be held to a contract if they decide down the road it's not for them.

[Shaolinlueb]

tae kwan do schools are big on the year contracts. some even have 2 and 3 year ones. and guess what, their schools are growing.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Some instructors have been fortunate enough (or skilled enough) that they are able to make teaching martial arts a living. It is their source of income. It is their business.

and just like any other business you need steady income.

A contract to sign up for matrial arts services is no different than any other business. You are agreeing to pay for the service provided and you are ensuring that he has a stable source of income that will keep his facility and his teaching opporitunities available.

besides I know many people who lack the motivation to come regularly to classes and they often end up making a resolution to themselves "I might as well be here, I'm paying for it!" and drag their butts in to class and before they know it, get in better shape and start looking forward to class.

btw: if you wouldn't sign a contract with a school.. what the hell are you doing there? go somewhere else if you're not sure you want to learn from him for only 12 mo.

[MasterKiller]

If the instruction is good enough, the students will keep coming month to month and you won't have to rely on legal intimidation to pay your rent.

[red5angel]

I'm paying for it!" and drag their butts in to class and before they know it, get in better shape and start looking forward to class.

yeah but what kind of student are they really going to be?

I guess in my opinion, having contracts is a way of selling out. You've resigned yourself to the fact that you have to twist arms to get people into your school, and that you don't mind filling it with people who wouldn't be there otherwise, except they owe you money, or have paid you lots of money.

[Icewater]

I think most places today have monthly, 3,6, and 12 month plans that give discounts for paying longer terms. I think this is an excellent strategy that allows the short timers to come in and overpay, then they won't complain as they leave and lets the long timers pay at a discount.

[red5angel]

I'd be ok with optional monthly contracts for discounts. I think then the motivation would be different, you'd still get the people sitting on the fence, but you woudln't make anyone sign up for too long who didn't want to.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Some instructors have been fortunate enough (or skilled enough) that they are able to make teaching martial arts a living. It is their source of income. It is their business.

and just like any other business you need steady income.

A contract to sign up for matrial arts services is no different than any other business. You are agreeing to pay for the service provided and you are ensuring that he has a stable source of income that will keep his facility and his teaching opporitunities available.

besides I know many people who lack the motivation to come regularly to classes and they often end up making a resolution to themselves "I might as well be here, I'm paying for it!" and drag their butts in to class and before they know it, get in better shape and start looking forward to class.

btw: if you wouldn't sign a contract with a school.. what the hell are you doing there? go somewhere else if you're not sure you want to learn from him for only 12 mo.

I gree shaoling tiger.


Originally posted by MasterKiller
If the instruction is good enough, the students will keep coming month to month and you won't have to rely on legal intimidation to pay your rent.

so you would like to think. but people will like the teacher and class but be like, i live to far away, i have too mcuh other stuff going on. people will always find a reason to get out of something.


Originally posted by red5angel
yeah but what kind of student are they really going to be?

I guess in my opinion, having contracts is a way of selling out. You've resigned yourself to the fact that you have to twist arms to get people into your school, and that you don't mind filling it with people who wouldn't be there otherwise, except they owe you money, or have paid you lots of money.

thats why there are introductory classes. so the student can do it and decide whether or not to take class. i have met teachers who try to sign you up before you take class. so the person should be interested befor signing up and there are always out.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
so you would like to think. but people will like the teacher and class but be like, i live to far away, i have too mcuh other stuff going on. people will always find a reason to get out of something. If they don't want to be there in the first place, they typically aren't going to be an asset to the class. You ever try teaching someone who would rather be home watching "Survivor"?

[ShaolinTiger00]

MK, If you are going to suceed as a business, you will have to teach those people as well as having a core group of dedicated students.

let them decide where they fall.

[MasterKiller]

I agree. I'm just saying that people who are forced to come to class usually don't put forth the necessary effort once they get there, anyway. People who want to learn and succeed usually don't need a motivating factor to get their @ss of the couch and make the drive. Everyone gets fly-by-night students walking in the door that take a couple of weeks of classes and then decide to move on. Making them sign a contact just forces them to keep coming, which takes away from the quality of training for the more serious students.

[red5angel]

thats why there are introductory classes. so the student can do it and decide whether or not to take class. i have met teachers who try to sign you up before you take class. so the person should be interested befor signing up and there are always out.

I'm not sure what your experience has been but typically it seems that people tend to come for a couple of weeks, or maybe even a month or two before really deciding not to come again. An introductory class may weed out some dreamers but certainly not the majority of them.

[Shaolinlueb]

most martial arts schools are business oriented in the 20th centurary and I am sure most have contracts. its more of a business thing then some "ethnic traditional teaching" method. look at it from that stand point thats all it is. from what i experienced, biggest drop out rate is after first 6 months. students have to also understand nothing cna be achieved overnight. if your worried about degrading the training, then maybe your teacher doesnt know how to seperate them that well. there should be different levels in the school. msot advanced poeple that dnt want to go, usually jsut talk to instructor and leave from what I have experienced.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Some schools will be mcdojos.. only in it for the $ selling an inferior porduct to the masses.

Others will be a very small hard core school of dedicated people who train for the love of it.

Sometimes, you can get both if you know how.. you can provide the kids with a system that helps them w bully prevention, discipline, builds basic skills etc, you can have soccer moms in the cardio kickboxing workouts, you can have joe average working on a standard cirriculum, and you can have a group of fighters who beat the snot out of each other so often that no one else wants to train with them.

In this case every ones needs are being met and are supported by the money that every other person brings.

great facilities, convientinet location, good mats, lots of good equipment etc..

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I agree. I'm just saying that people who are forced to come to class usually don't put forth the necessary effort once they get there, anyway. People who want to learn and succeed usually don't need a motivating factor to get their @ss of the couch and make the drive. Everyone gets fly-by-night students walking in the door that take a couple of weeks of classes and then decide to move on. Making them sign a contact just forces them to keep coming, which takes away from the quality of training for the more serious students.

But there are plenty of ways around that. I think my school does a pretty good job of this. We have a set class that is 2x week, where nearly all of the students show up. Then there are optional classes, where usually only a few people show up. The more dedicated people obviously are showing up to a good number of the optional classes. This is where we get ahead of the people who just show up to the mandatory classes because we're typically getting 1 on 1 instrucion. Also, the optional classes tend to involve more instruction time and more detailed stuff, where the set class tends to be more basic and just involve more of the cardio workout.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
In this case every ones needs are being met and are supported by the money that every other person brings.

great facilities, convientinet location, good mats, lots of good equipment etc.. Sounds great...unless the soccer mom wants to switch to Yoga after 2 months but can't because she signed a 1-year contract. Or if Dad loses his job and it becomes a struggle to scrape up the monthly tuition. We lose more students because of a shift in their family income than we do to them being lazy or getting bored. A locked in contract would be detrimental to these people. A local TKD teacher enforces his contracts in small claims court. Before I met her, my wife had to pay him for 12 months of classes even though she quit attending after 1 month because the instruction sucked. It just isn't ethical, IMO.

If a place is good, people will attend and pay. I just don't see why you would want to force people to come if they don't want to be there unless you are scamming for the $.

[ShaolinTiger00]

A contract is an AGREEMENT by both parties.

No decent person wants to have an unhappy or disatisfied student. The contract is just a way of making sure he has a stable income for the school.

The average person usually comes into a school and spends 2-3 months and is never seen from again. Is this fair to the instructor that he made an agreement to teach this person for a whole year and that they stop coming and request to break the agreement? It's not his fault you lost interest. He was depending on you to make a living.

The truth of the matter is that the "contracts suck" outcry usually come from a guy who is practicing at the YMCA or an aerobic room of a gym on rented time, or practicing out of a industrial park with no mats, ****ty equipment and only a few students.

[MasterKiller]

Is this fair to the instructor that he made an agreement to teach this person for a whole year and that they stop coming and request to break the agreement? Since when does the consumer owe anything to a business after the transaction is complete? A business gets money by providing a service to the consumer. When the consumer no longer wants/needs that service, he shouldn't be obligated to keep paying the bills of the business. And Yes, it is the owner's fault if their product was not competitve enough to maintain the interest of the consumer. If you quit eating at Taco Bell and they go out of business, whose fault was it? If you quit eating there, should you still send them money every month just to make sure the franchise doesn't close?

We have our own studio, about 100 students, 2100 sq feet covered 75% by mats, free weights, a nautilus machine, lots of weapons, and no contracts. If we want more students, with a wider range of interest, it's our responsibilty to find a way to attract and keep them. It's not the consumer's responsibility to float businesses that provide services they don't want.

[Judge Pen]

My teacher just recently went to contracts. It's not for "legal intimadation" for students to keep coming. All you have to do is call him and he will suspend or cancel your contract for any period of time. For him it is easier administratively. The company he is dealing with collects al the money and sends him a single check each month minus their adminstrative fee. He never asks for money or keeps track of money after that and can focus on teaching. He offered to suspend my contract while I recover, but I declined. I would prefer to pay each month to support his teaching--I have a vested interest in keeping him in business.

[ShaolinTiger00]

JP that is exactly how the majority of martial arts schools handle it.

[MasterKiller]

If the majority of schools are willing to suspend contracts at any time, then how is it the owners of the schools become dependent on the income for those contracts? If it's not guranteed money to keep the studio running, then what is your argument, exactly?

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
JP that is exactly how the majority of martial arts schools handle it.

the good ones at least, you have some schools who keep demanding stuff or not letting you out.

we have contracts at our school, if we need to put them on hold because of injury or soemthing we will. if the person wants out, their tuition has to be upto date and they msut pay the next month (if there is one) sorta like last months rent. havent had any problems really.

[Tigrentera]

I think that in this day and age contracts are a necessary evil.

In the old days the relationship between master and student was very different. It was more like an apprenticeship and as a student you had to prove to your master that you were loyal and worthy of learning from him before he taught you "the goods." After you had passed the tests of loyalty you were expected to help your teacher survive financially....much like you would help your own parents.

In the modern age kung fu training is looked at like a service. I pay you X for Y. People look at it like joining a gym or health club. If you look at the successful gyms and health clubs you will see that they all require contracts. That's because most people are flakey and getting in good shape is hard work and most people are not willing to put in the effort. So it is necessary for the health clubs to have contracts so they can keep a consistent source of income even if people quit.

If a kung fu teacher wants to be successful and run his school as a business then he should follow the health club model. Unfortunately, this model conflicts with the traditional model of kung fu training.

So what ya gonna do?


:confused:

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
If the majority of schools are willing to suspend contracts at any time, then how is it the owners of the schools become dependent on the income for those contracts? If it's not guranteed money to keep the studio running, then what is your argument, exactly?

That's my point MK. Most aren't, but it's easier having a contract even if there's an escape clause built in. Some schools are all about the business and they won't have those clauses in there. Officially, you can cancel the contract at any time with 30 days notice.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
That's my point MK. Most aren't, but it's easier having a contract even if there's an escape clause built in. Some schools are all about the business and they won't have those clauses in there. Officially, you can cancel the contract at any time with 30 days notice.


Originally posted by ST00
The average person usually comes into a school and spends 2-3 months and is never seen from again. Is this fair to the instructor that he made an agreement to teach this person for a whole year and that they stop coming and request to break the agreement? It's not his fault you lost interest. He was depending on you to make a living.

This is what I'm arguing against. Basically, the owner is forcing the person to pay for services never rendered. National chain gyms like Gold's and Reaction Fitness are notorious for this. They EXPECT people will drop out after a short period yet enforce the contracts anyway. It's a scam to make money with the intent on never providing the full services to most of their clients, plain and simple.

[Judge Pen]

A good school can have contracts and not be the type of school to scam people that quit early. The contract should say this somewhere in the document. . . . if it doesn't then buyer beware.

[red5angel]

I need to get something clarified - are these contracts where you lay down all the money in one shot or are these contracts where you sign up, but still pay month to month or whatever?

[MasterKiller]

One year agreement, paid monthly, usually. You're still locked into a monthly payment if you decide to quit and the school enforces the contract.

[Judge Pen]

The most you would be out is one month's tuition under my schools contract. At $40 a month that's hardly worth pursuing. My teacher would never pursue that anyway.

[red5angel]

I'm best with paying monthly....

I'm ok with siging a contract, paying monthly, if I can get out of it whenever.

I'm not ok with having to pay a full contract and not getting my money back if I decide to get out.

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
This is what I'm arguing against. Basically, the owner is forcing the person to pay for services never rendered. National chain gyms like Gold's and Reaction Fitness are notorious for this. They EXPECT people will drop out after a short period yet enforce the contracts anyway. It's a scam to make money with the intent on never providing the full services to most of their clients, plain and simple.


But if the intent is to deliver services and the buyer never shows to collect on them then is it the fault of the deliverer or the buyer?

The deliverer of services has to have some way to protect himself. :(

Let's take a theoretical. Say you owned an airline and you hired a cleaning service to clean your planes. They sign a contract with you for a years worth of work. If all of a sudden you say you don't want there cleaning service too bad for you. You signed a contract with them for one year.

You signed a contract and the onus is on you to prove that they are not fulfilling there end of contract.

The problem in the "fitness" world is that people sign up but don't stick with it. It wasn't that the gym or school did something wrong. It's that people in general are too lazy to stick with it.

You can't run a viable school or health club when you have people signing up and quitting all the time and your income is uncertain. What if you had a bunch of people quit in one month? You couldn't pay your rent.

So martial arts schools find ways to stabilize their income either by contracts OR other ways like Lion Dancing or equipment sales.

You have to have some source of consistent income and trust me it rarely is coming from the students.

[MasterKiller]

If you can get out of it whenever, what is the point of having a contract? Unless the teacher is doing what JP's is, using a 3rd party billing agent, I don't see how a contract can guarantee income.


You have to have some source of consistent income and trust me it rarely is coming from the students. Then perhaps you should find another line of business. You are basically extorting money from a consumer class that doesn't want your product.

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
, using a 3rd party billing agent, I don't see why you need to have a contract.

That's genius. And if they don't pay you can send a collections agency after 'em.

[emre]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
If the instruction is good enough, the students will keep coming month to month and you won't have to rely on legal intimidation to pay your rent.

Exactly.

[GLW]

Not all contracts are bad...

Ones where there is no escape clause and the school uses collection agencies (a common thing) are mainly done by schools that want a quick and easy buck...and this is also the method used by the Health clubs and such.... They get you for everything they can when you walk in the door...and expect that more than 50% will never come in to take the services they paid for.

A FAIR contract involves the student getting a reduced fee for making a committment to the school for a period of time.

While I do not do contracts where I am - don't need to ...I HAVE given it some thought if I were to ever need to...and it goes like this...


Say the nominal fee for classes by the month is $50.

A 6 month contract if just monthly fees would be $300, a 1 year - $600.

So, if you want a 1 year from a person, you have to make it worth more than 2 6 month setups.

So, 6 months - $250. (translates into 1 free month)

Then 1 year - $450 (translates into 3 free months)

Then, the escape clause...

In writing
Escape applies to the NEXT beginning month
Refunds are based upon charging the student for the months they have used at the NO DISCOUNT rate...(you burn your paid months BEFORE you burn your free ones)

So, if a person has a 1 year contract and they come in during month 9, they have burned 9 months of dues (i.e. 9*50 = $450)...so no refund.

If they came in during month 3 and quit, they would have burned 3*50 = $150. They had paid $450 so they get a $300 refund.

If they come back after being gone for 3 months and try to say "I quit 2 months ago...I deserve those two months in the refund since I was not here...."

Nope, it is a courtesy thing. Instructor was there for the classes. It is NOT their fault that the student did not show up or take responsibility for their own tuition issues until 2 months later....

[Tigrentera]

That's a good set up. I like it.

[norther practitioner]

GLW hit the nail on the head....

I think in some instances, contracts are OK. The way that his would be set up seems good.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GLW
Not all contracts are bad...

Ones where there is no escape clause and the school uses collection agencies (a common thing) are mainly done by schools that want a quick and easy buck...and this is also the method used by the Health clubs and such.... They get you for everything they can when you walk in the door...and expect that more than 50% will never come in to take the services they paid for.

A FAIR contract involves the student getting a reduced fee for making a committment to the school for a period of time.

While I do not do contracts where I am - don't need to ...I HAVE given it some thought if I were to ever need to...and it goes like this...


Say the nominal fee for classes by the month is $50.

A 6 month contract if just monthly fees would be $300, a 1 year - $600.

So, if you want a 1 year from a person, you have to make it worth more than 2 6 month setups.

So, 6 months - $250. (translates into 1 free month)

Then 1 year - $450 (translates into 3 free months)

Then, the escape clause...

In writing
Escape applies to the NEXT beginning month
Refunds are based upon charging the student for the months they have used at the NO DISCOUNT rate...(you burn your paid months BEFORE you burn your free ones)

So, if a person has a 1 year contract and they come in during month 9, they have burned 9 months of dues (i.e. 9*50 = $450)...so no refund.

If they came in during month 3 and quit, they would have burned 3*50 = $150. They had paid $450 so they get a $300 refund.

If they come back after being gone for 3 months and try to say "I quit 2 months ago...I deserve those two months in the refund since I was not here...."

Nope, it is a courtesy thing. Instructor was there for the classes. It is NOT their fault that the student did not show up or take responsibility for their own tuition issues until 2 months later....
This needs quoting again!

The only change I'd make is to have two free months rather than three with the one year subscription, but offer something else as well. A free training shirt or something like that, which a student would need to replace every year or so anyway. That affects your cash flow much less.