Documentary: "CHOKE"

[sihing]

Just downloaded and watched "Choke". It’s a documentary mostly on Rickson Gracie and the Vale Tudo back in 1995. It profiles some of the high profile fighters of that event, but primarily focuses on Rickson Gracie and follows him around months before the tournament and while it is happening. Very good documentary I must say. I appreciate the behind the scene's footage and the thoughts of the fighters as the events are unfolding. For example after Rickson's first fight it seemed to me that there was a little bit of panic in the dressing room after the fight, even though Rickson won, the people around him were agitated about something, and Rickson was high strung too, but this is a natural reaction from being in a event like this.

Like one of the reviews said of the film, it humanizes Rickson Gracie as a normal person, instead of a superhuman. I appreciate his dedication to the art he loves, and also the sophistication of it also, it’s very efficient and effective for the purpose it serves.

Has anyone on here seen the Film? Any comments?


James

[Nick Forrer]

Hi James

I have that documentary and yes it is very good.

Some highlights/observations

1) It shows that GJJ is very much a family affair. The footage of Ricksons son (Kron ?) at the start where he spins around and armbars his dad flawlessly shows just how important learning from a young age is. Then there is the footage of helio (about 80) and Rickson rolling. This shows that BJJ (contrary to what some people claim) has a long life span and may even contribute to longevity. Then there is the relationship between Ricksons brother (royler) and him. This demonstrates how having brothers who train means a constant supply of training partners and coaches.

2)It shows how the guillotine and sprawl is a very effective and often underestimated choke especially against someone whose game relies on takedowns. The Japanese shootfighter gets caught with it against the Thai boxer and then the Japanese shootfighter almost catches Rickson with it in a later match. FWIW IMV the panic in the gracie camp was over whether in escaping from the guillotine Rickson had damaged his neck.

3)I especially like the footage of Rickson training on the beach. He appears totally comfortable and in control of his own body – a kind of mastery that most people – even ‘sporty’ people – will never attain.

4) It is often said that Rickson is the greatest living practitioner of BJJ. I don’t know if this is true – especially given some of the guys around now like Leo viera and Marcelo Garcia. How well he would do against todays current crop of bjj savy mma fighters like silva, crocop fedor etc I also don’t know. But he has proven himself at his peak and against some the of the best on offer at the time.

[kj]

Thanks for the reviews. It's now in my Netflix queue.

Regards,
- kj

[sihing]

Good comments Nick.

I like the part of the documentary where Rickson is talking about body feel through the art and how it becomes second nature and flowing, very similar to Wing Chun. The was one fighting scene were Rickson moves instantly and so fast when the opening is there to get on the guys back from a side mount I had to rewind and appreciate it again, it was nice to watch. Wing Chun and BJJ are very much related in philosophy and concept IMO.

As for him doing well today, from my brief observation of him just from this tape, his stand up skills need work for sure. In some of the fights Rickson and the other fighters would be close enough to each other that they made contact with their outstretched fists, but nobody did anything against Rickson when this happened. I know that people are scarred to get their leg swept, but all of the fighters ended up on the ground anyways. I think once the fight ends up on the ground, Rickson could still compete in today's world, he's only 40 so that's not old. But I believe that today MMA stand up fighters are more aware of the BJJ game and would take him out faster than the guys back then.


James

[SevenStar]

the gracies really don't do alot of standup - it's not what they are trying to accomplish. Whe we asked royce about striking, this is what he said: I'm not an mma guy - I do bjj.

They train some striking as they compete in mma, but my guess is that what they do is very minimal.

[anerlich]

Like most who train BJJ seriously, I saw this very early on in my BJJ career. I have the DVD.

Other good clips available on the web are:

A Rickson/Royler demo at Pride, arguably one of the best demos of Gracie JJ available.

For MMA, anything of Kazushi Sakuraba (who has beaten four Gracies in MMA) and Genki Sudo (freakishly talented and spectacular, plus way crazy striking and breakdancing). These guys are my faves, YMMV.

All this stuff (and a lot more) is on subfighter.com.


Wing Chun and BJJ are very much related in philosophy and concept IMO.

I seem to remember you got all upset last time I tried to tell you this.

[sihing]

I don't remember if I got upset about the WC & BJJ sharing many concepts, maybe it was because you added a outside source to your WC, that may have bothered me at that time. About 6 or 7 months ago I watched some GJJ instructional tapes and made the comment that it reminded me of WC for the ground, very efficent and sophisticated, but I still see the concepts inherient in WC in GJJ ground work, and feel no need to actually have to go out of the system and learn GJJ. If one looks hard enough they can find all of it in the WC system, IMO.

James

[Nick Forrer]

Not to name drop but-

I recently got a chance to roll with ricardo viera - six time world bjj champ and no 1 in his weight class (so im told). We rolled for about five minutes and i got submitted about once every minute.
Observations - he didnt 'fight' for position - as soon as he felt me put up any resistance he just flowed straight onto the next position. Also he didnt seem to mind turtling up when i passed his guard- he very smoothly just rolled over and back into his guard when i tried to take his back.

I also recently got a chance to do some ground work with Emin Boztepe. He showed me some of his techniques (anti grappling) from the bottom when the top man tries to pass your guard by underhooking one leg and pushing it over to the other side. He has some very nice moves and has worked out all the various different variations and how to continue striking depending on what the top man does to try and counter.

[sihing]

So then Nick, do you think Emin's Anti Grappling techniques are effective, and is there a limit to the effectiveness depending on the skills of the Grappler.

We also do allot of Anitgrappling stuff in our kwoon, I will have to put some on a clip soon for all to see.

James

[anerlich]

We also do allot of Anitgrappling stuff

So do we, it's called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Greco-Roman wrestling and there are clips of it all over the web.

Why do strikers seem to have to have "anti-grappling", but grapplers not see a need for "anti-striking"?

[sihing]

So then, was that Sifu Rick's original idea behind learning and teaching BJJ, so that he could teach students methods to counter grapplers, or did he want to expand his knowledge & repertoire into an area he thought TWC lacked?

To answer your question, I believe the grapplers think they don't need an "anti-striking" strategy as they are confident in their entry methods and delivery systems, just like some of us feel the same about our WC methods against grapplers. The logical thing to do is to realize that the WC concepts can be utilized equally while standing up or on the ground, but not in exactly the same way. Also, if your belief is that most self defense situations end up on the ground, then you will train there the most, if you believe most end upright, then you will train there more. I believe anything can happen but that ending up on the ground is more of a liability due to lack of mobility (e.g. it's easier to run away while standing up than lying on the floor), so I will concentrate on maintaining my balance and not being taken down, but become familiar with methods and strategies if that scenario is not possible to maintain.

James

[couch]

Originally posted by sihing
The logical thing to do is to realize that the WC concepts can be utilized equally while standing up or on the ground, but not in exactly the same way. Also, if your belief is that most self defense situations end up on the ground, then you will train there the most, if you believe most end upright, then you will train there more. I believe anything can happen but that ending up on the ground is more of a liability due to lack of mobility (e.g. it's easier to run away while standing up than lying on the floor), so I will concentrate on maintaining my balance and not being taken down, but become familiar with methods and strategies if that scenario is not possible to maintain.

James

Very true. Sensitivity stays the same on the ground as it does standing up. Just because I'm on the ground doesn't mean that I'm at a dissadvantage. I still have my Wing Chun, whether I'm in a phone booth, a boat, an alleyway, sitting in a chair, swimming, etc.

Peace,
Couch

[Ultimatewingchun]

Don't want to get into any more Emin Boztepe bashing - have already done more than my share - (and in truth the guy definitely has some good all around fighting skills)...

but Andrew Nerlich is right.

Anti-grappling techniques - whether they be using strikes and whatever to avoid going to the ground....or they consist of moves on the ground that enable strikers to strike - and thereby reverse, escape, or neutralize the grappler...

These things are very limited in scope.

Putting striking/kicking and grappling skills together is the way to go, imo...but betting the house on striking/kicking and anti-grappling skills - against a real good grappler...

that's a 50/50 hit-or-miss proposition at best.

Not good odds.

Learn how to grapple.

[planetwc]

James,

You really think after watching some GJJ instructionals that your WC has ALL the ground work of GJJ in it?

Really?

Somehow, that just doesn't sound right.

I think you might want to visit a BJJ school in your area and see if what you think from looking at video matches the reality of trying it out against someone at say a blue or purple belt range in BJJ. In that way you can truly evaluate if you can put your theory to practice just in the introductory classes or in training with one of the instructors to compare notes. Again not as a "challenge" but for you to test out your beliefs.

Unless you are training constantly on the ground and dealing with positions, transitions, escapes etc. I don't see how you can be as effective on the ground as a BJJ guy is as you may be in standup with your Wing Chun.

Do you constantly practice submissions as part of your Wing Chun training?

Yes there may very well be the similarity of sensitivity in terms of how a BJJ person will capitalize on openings, stiffness and resistence--however training those things on the ground constantly and developing the feel for it are probably VERY different things.

I think you'd agree that it is not just concepts alone, but the training methodology and application of techniques via repeated use that will make the difference in having the ability to translate theory into applied skill.


Originally posted by sihing
I don't remember if I got upset about the WC & BJJ sharing many concepts, maybe it was because you added a outside source to your WC, that may have bothered me at that time. About 6 or 7 months ago I watched some GJJ instructional tapes and made the comment that it reminded me of WC for the ground, very efficent and sophisticated, but I still see the concepts inherient in WC in GJJ ground work, and feel no need to actually have to go out of the system and learn GJJ. If one looks hard enough they can find all of it in the WC system, IMO.

James

[reneritchie]

The documentary is excellent. The son was Rockson, who died tragically in a motorcycle accident a few years ago (eerily like Rolls Gracie, Rickson's mentor, dying in a hang-gliding accident many year ago). It seems to have taken a lot out of Rickson, as can certainly be imagined, and so that documentary is especially poignant.

There are some good highlight videos of various fighters on sherdog.com as well.

[sihing]

Originally posted by planetwc
James,

You really think after watching some GJJ instructionals that your WC has ALL the ground work of GJJ in it?

Really?

Somehow, that just doesn't sound right.

I think you might want to visit a BJJ school in your area and see if what you think from looking at video matches the reality of trying it out against someone at say a blue or purple belt range in BJJ. In that way you can truly evaluate if you can put your theory to practice just in the introductory classes or in training with one of the instructors to compare notes. Again not as a "challenge" but for you to test out your beliefs.

Unless you are training constantly on the ground and dealing with positions, transitions, escapes etc. I don't see how you can be as effective on the ground as a BJJ guy is as you may be in standup with your Wing Chun.

Do you constantly practice submissions as part of your Wing Chun training?

Yes there may very well be the similarity of sensitivity in terms of how a BJJ person will capitalize on openings, stiffness and resistence--however training those things on the ground constantly and developing the feel for it are probably VERY different things.

I think you'd agree that it is not just concepts alone, but the training methodology and application of techniques via repeated use that will make the difference in having the ability to translate theory into applied skill.

David,
I think you have misunderstood some of what I said. Basically when I watched the instructional GJJ tapes featuring Royce and Rorian Gracie, I noticed, mostly in a concept way, things that reminded me of WC, the difference being the GJJ is done while on the ground. When fighting on the ground the GJJ people are still "trapping" your limbs, and setting up positions for themselves that make it harder to escape their grasps on you. They also rely heavily on feeling and sensitivity. This sounds and looks allot like the WC I practice. Now could an experienced WC teacher/practitioner if they had the time and really wanted to do it, without ever seeing or knowing anything about grappling or BJJ, develop a grappling fighting method based on their WC experience and knowledge? Yes I think they could. It would be a large undertaking and take allot of experimentation and development but it could be done. Now they would probably use the same principals and concepts that WC uses while standing up, and adapt them to the ground game, only efficient and effective methods that didn't require superhuman physical attributes would be used. Eventually it may look allot like BJJ.

Also in I don't think I said that I would be a match for a skilled BJJ practitioner on the ground. I'd rather fight standing as I believe this is a safer place to be, and if I had more time and motivation I would practice more grappling with people in the kwoon, but to tell you the truth I'm not really that interested in spending too much time rolling around on the floor.


James

[planetwc]

Hi James,

Thanks for the clarification--I see where you are coming from.

[anerlich]

So then, was that Sifu Rick's original idea behind learning and teaching BJJ, so that he could teach students methods to counter grapplers, or did he want to expand his knowledge & repertoire into an area he thought TWC lacked?

Definitely option B.

[sihing]

Cool

[Knifefighter]

There is a huge difference between BJJ and WC.

BJJ has no centerline theory, since, in a large number of positions, you want to be off centerline.
Any "trapping" you might find in BJJ is quite different than that you will find in WC.
BJJ is primarily a grapplng art, suplemented by striking.
BJJ trains from 17 different positions on the ground and has thousands of techniques generated from those 17 positions. WC has no equivalent to most of those positions.
The ultimate BJJ objective is to attain one of two positions, mount or back mount, neither of which are present in WC.
Most of the submission finishes in BJJ have to be done on the ground and won't work standing up.
Much of BJJ's ground striking is completely different from that of WC.

As far as "anti-striking", grapplers do have that- the clinch and the shoot.

[sihing]

Knifefighter,
I think your misunderstanding too. I'm not talking technique for technique WC and BJJ.

When the BJJ fighter takes the mount on the back what is the advantage to him? Answer that one and we can go from there. Thx.

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
When the BJJ fighter takes the mount on the back what is the advantage to him? Answer that one and we can go from there. Advantages:
- You can strike the opponent, but he has a hard time even reaching you.
- If the opponent extends his arm to try to punch he is setting himself up for an arm lock.
- If he moves (assuming he does not know the specific counters) he either gives you an even stronger position or takes you with him in the same relational position.
- Many chokes are readily available to you, but not to the opponent.
- Your punches have more power than your opponent's due to the body's ability to freely rotate in each of these positions and due to the fact that gravity is on your side. You can also chamber your punches to get additional power, while your opponent cannot.
- You have mobility and can move offline and your opponent cannot.
- You have a better angle of attack.
- Your opponent's eyes and groin are each readily available for attack, while yours are more protected.

[sihing]

So in other words, the advantage is superior position for the person applying. This position allows more options for the person applying it and much less options for the other. Wing Chun does the same in many ways, just that it does it for stand up fighting. In the first UFC's, the was a fight between one karate man (Keith Hackney I believe) and a big sumo guy. Keith ended up behind him while the big sumo was on one knee, and all Keith did was try to strike him with some sort of hammer type blow, hitting him in the neck. Because the big sumo needed two hands to help himself up he couldn't get up because he needed one hand to protect his neck. My point here is, Keith had no idea of the back mount strategies or how to apply them, and he didn't even know the proper striking methods when someone is in this position.

WC and BJJ share the concepts of economy of motion, superior positioning, effective usage of their natural tools, using the force of the other against them, and many more. One art specializes in stand up and the other in ground fighting, and that was my point in my post on this thread about the similarities. When ever I watch a karate demo or Judo demo I don't see too many WC concepts in motion, but when I watched the GJJ tapes I did.

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
When ever I watch a karate demo or Judo demo I don't see too many WC concepts in motion, but when I watched the GJJ tapes I did. Judo and BJJ are much more alike than are BJJ and WC.



Originally posted by sihing
My point here is, Keith had no idea of the back mount strategies or how to apply them, and he didn't even know the proper striking methods when someone is in this position.What would the proper WC methods be from this position?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
So in other words, the advantage is superior position for the person applying. This position allows more options for the person applying it and much less options for the other. Wing Chun does the same in many ways, just that it does it for stand up fighting. So does boxing. So does Muay Thai. So does judo. So does wrestling. So does almost any combative style.

[sihing]

Since the sumo guy was taller also, when he was on his one knee, he dropped down to Keith's lower chest level(from what I recall), so a few well applied knee's to the temple area would have been good. Instead of using his wrist & forearm to hit him in the neck, use the verticle elbow to focus the power and penetration. And of course he could have mounted him on his back and applied a choke from there. And if he knew Iron Palm a good couple of slaps would suffice here two.


James

[anerlich]

When ever I watch a karate demo or Judo demo I don't see too many WC concepts in motion

I think you need to look harder or drop some of your prejudices.

Traditional Judo and BJJ share the same roots. Much of Judo Ne-waza shares the fundamental principles of BJJ (some judoka go as far as to say they have everything BJJ does, though most BJJers would disagree).

Get some quality Karate tapes, like those of Patrick McCarthy. I think you will be more than impressed. Shihan McCarthy also has a pretty mean JJ ground game. His weapons demos are also amazingly good.

The back mount thing is a no-brainer. If you can get a standup fighter to face away from you and not turn around, you can wail away on him with (almost) impunity. He has basically zero defense other than to go fetal. You have less targets than you do facing him, but you can easily put him down and/or out if he can't turn around.

The big advantage of back mount on the ground is that, unlike when you are standing up, you (with a little skill) have much more control over the guy and can stop him from turning over to face you,or to get up, using your weight and all four limbs (five including the head).

No way this is unique to WC. Anyone of any or no style would much prefer to have their opponent's back; he can attack with little or no chance of retaliation, and little or no defense.

BJJ has strategies and tactics for escape even from back mount on the ground. An experienced BJJer will escape an inexperienced fighter's attempts to pin or choke from here with relative ease, unless there is a large disparity in size or strength. I postulate the same would not be true of a WC specialist.

[sihing]

Well I postulate that you guys forget what I said about WC & BJJ similarities cause it's obvious that your not getting it....

James

[anerlich]

BJJ has no centerline theory, since, in a large number of positions, you want to be off centerline.

John Will, 3rd degree BB and head of Machado BJJ in Australia, talks about a "centerline principle" in his book on the BJJ guard.

However, this only really applies in the context of keeping the open guard and preventing the pass.

I agree that in other places you absolutely want to be way off center, for example to create leverage on the guy and cut off his abilities to post on one side, to set up a sweep.

[Ultimatewingchun]

They're getting it, James...but their point is: The similarities are VERY generic. Not much overlap between the two arts that doesn't exist with other arts as well.

If you want to argue that an art like wing chun might provide more sensitivity based on contact reflex training (such as in chi sao)...a sensitivity that good grapplers also need to have - so that they don't try to fight force-with-force...and that WC provides more contact reflex sensitivity training than a lot of other standup striking arts - okay. That makes sense.

But that's about it.

[anerlich]

Well I postulate that you guys forget what I said about WC & BJJ similarities cause it's obvious that your not getting it....

James, James, I've been doing WC as long as you, I've been doing BJJ 3-4 sessions a week since 1999 while you've watched a few vids.

I've posted at length on this subject before, with some resistance and argument from you IIRC. Now you've watched Rickson in action on video (you even asked me "Rickson who?" once, LOL), and you've had a minor epiphany and selflessly deign to enlighten us ignoroids... perhaps I should forget it, as you suggest ... except I heard it all before back in 1999 ...

You obviously know much more about the similarities and differences than me, from your wealth of experience in both styles. Please tell me some more about what I'm not getting :p :p :p

[captain]

must say i like the idea of bjj:a smaller guy having a decent style to look after himself with.helio mentions that in the gracie book.but,when ive seen bjj in action,im reminded of scrappy judo ne waza.

Russ.

[sihing]

No epiphany Andrew, just a observation. I have respected the GJJ art since I first saw the UFC way back when, as Royce was the only guy I have seen in any of those that actually used technique to win, and not relying on physical attributes as much as the others, that's all.

James

[anerlich]

when ive seen bjj in action,im reminded of scrappy judo ne waza

Sure, just like a lot of people say when they see "Wing Chun in action" it looks like crap kickboxing. Some people just don't want to see, huh?

James, you ought to check out the Royce/Sakuraba fight. You'll see Royce's technique beaten by a better technician on the day.

Royce himself said Rickson is the far better technician. You really should look at the Rickson/Royler demo, so should you, captain.

And if you REALLY want to see a small grappler beat a big dude with technique, download Genki Sudo vs Butterbean. Though IMO that didn't really stretch Genki. Noriega vs Bob Sapp is a similar example.

[captain]

i don't care much for the title "choke";bit violent.however,i am thinking of shortening the arms on my judo gi to the elbow.taking the pants [trousers] to just under my knees.a more old school look that allows for more movement.Russ.

[anerlich]

i don't care much for the title "choke";bit violent.

so you haven't seen "Kill Bill" or "Bloodsport", I take it?

What's more violent; choking someone out to unconsciousness with little if any accumulative damage, or the supposed massive head trauma and resulting concussion, punch drunkenness, etc or alleged wholesale systemic disruption caused by WC's "deadly pressure point attacks"?

As for your fashion ideas, perhaps the style will catch on; the 1970s will attest that sillier ideas have.

Practically, though, the full sleeves and pants on the Jiu Jitsu gi promote skill by gving your partner easy handles by which to grab and control you, thus requiring you to have good defence. It is meant to provide the realism of fighting a clothed opponent (which is more likely in the places *I* frequent) without going through a T shirt or two every session. One's own gi can also be used to control and subdue an opponent.

[captain]

would it work in a kangaroo boxing event,though?that's the real question!skippy vs the world!

Russ.