Disowning your Sifu

[sifuironfist]

How does a student skip his Sifu and SiGung in his explaination of his lineage?? On Emin's web site www.wingtsun.net (http://www.wingtsun.net) he has under WT Bios. Yip Man's Photo then His OWN. Where are his Sigung and Sifu, LT and KK. It is not unusual for a Sifu to disown a student who no longer properly represents their teaching. This is both understandable and proper. The Sifu is saying that the student no longer represents the Sifu or the organization. But for a student to disown his Sifu, this is not only stupid, but lacks honor. The Sifu is the source of the knowledge that the student has gained. How do you leave out that Sifu, and not give the rightful credit for what has been taught. This is not right under any circumstance, even if the student has a major falling out with that Sifu. It is one thing to discontinue training with a Sifu, but to give no credit for the source of ones knowledge lacks honor. What do you guy's think?

Americans are so smart, they can put a man on the moon, but they still study Karate!!!

[kungfu cowboy]

I guess you just disown them! Is wing chun a part of the Catholic church? Sheesh! It is kinda silly to pretend that your teachers didn't teach you though.

[This message was edited by kungfu cowboy on 08-30-01 at 10:39 PM.]

[anerlich]

I don't know (and more to the point, neither do you) why EB left info about his teachers off his web page. Seeing as they just went through a pretty acrimonious parting of the ways, he might well have felt that it was a bit too sensitive to put that stuff on his page right now. Maybe he's still trying to work out how best to present that info without things flaring up, or maybe he and the other camp have some sort of agreement not to mention each other. If you're not there you don't know.

In any case, if you read Emin's bio on the page (something you apparently neglected), you will see he mentions both LT and KK therein, though that bio looks a little outdated.

I think it's pretty stupid to ascribe notions of pride, bad character or malicious intent to someone from what is left off their web page. you didn't even read Emin's bio.

If you really wanted to find out, you could probably drop the webmaster an email rather than indulging in alarmist speculation.

I have nothing to do with WT.

AbMan

"Much like the people on this forum, kung fu has become full of geeks today." -Spinning Backfist musing self-descriptively

[Sihing73]

Hello,

This is a dangerous area to tread particularily with the recent events involving this person and group.

I would ask that if this discussion were to continue that it be done as a matter of martial ethics without resorting to the names being mentioned. I am sure everyone knows who is being discussed but out of the same type of respect being alluded to I would ask that no names be brought into things.

Peace,

Dave

[HuangKaiVun]

A student is a student no matter what, and a sifu is a sifu no matter what.

Regardless of whether or not a student is embraced by his sifu, the fact remains that the students learned from the sifu and the sifu was compensated for his teaching.

If I were disowned by my sifu, the first thing I'd do is try to make it up to him.

Now if he weren't willing to make it up with me, I'd still acknowledge that I was his student to anybody that asked me but would blatantly tell people the TRUTH - that I was disowned for the reasons that he gave me.

Maybe that's why I haven't been disowned yet.

[sifuironfist]

It is not my intention to discuss the EB, KK, LT, issue. That was just the thing that brought the question to mind, so it was used as an example. I am sorry if it got anyones panties in a bunch. The issue here is that of a student not acknowledging his Sifu and SiGung as the source of his knowledge. The above example is not the only thie this has happened.

Americans are so smart, they can put a man on the moon, but they still study Karate!!!

[reneritchie]

It seems both happen. Students and teachers have falling outs and then the teacher's new students (or in some cases the teacher themselves) spreads stories about the old student never having learned properly, or for very long, or having only learned via video tape, etc. Or the student goes and gets a new teacher and spreads stories about the old one being not as original or good or whatever.

Perhaps, in light of that, its better for all involved to say nothing public at all?

(To draw perhaps a relevant example, this gentleman's grandmaster rarely mentions his first sifu by name, sometimes refering to him as simply "first instructor")

Rgds,

Rene Ritchie

[whippinghand]

A Sifu's responsibility is more than just teaching.

[azwingchun]

I happen to know of a situation where a student left his teacher (purposely leaving names out) and he was told not to have his teacher or Si Gung's photo on the wall of the school. Now this kinda troubles me in a way but on the other hand I kinda understand. I understand in the way that the Sifu of this person doesn't want him/her to use their name to get students but on the other hand this is his lineage and always will be. Kinda like if you and your son/daughter have a fight and you move away from each other and deny knowing them it doesn't change the fact that you are family. I've even heard people say "you can't mention my name or I'll deny it!" Strange!?!?!?

[Chumly]

Yeah, I heard the same thing happened at a Wing Chun club in Glenview, Illinois, USA - though not as explosive. And the same thing happened as described in a previous post - that the student considers another instructor as Sifu and considers the former teacher as his "first Sifu". Even though almost a decade was spent with the first and very little time with the second. It has gotten to the point where the first sifu is not even put into the student's lineage. I've had a few instructors and I would put them in all in my lineage because I learned something from all of them. Unfortunately we all have to live with our egos and other people's.

[IronFist]

Wow, your screen name is like mine, SifuIronFist.

Hehe

Iron

[NafAnal]

Hey an emin thread, where's kungar?

[HuangKaiVun]

What's wrong with saying "I was disowned by Sifu for _____ reason?"

If I were disowned by my sifu, that's what I'd list on MY lineage chart.

[sifuironfist]

There is a big difference between a student leaving one teacher for another, and not giving credit to his former Sifu, and in an INSTRUCTOR who became an instructor under the guideance of his Sifu, not giving credit to his Sifu and Lineage. How can one do this? If it were me, I would list My Sifu and Lineage, and add as a side note that I am no longer with that Sifu, but that is still where my knowledge and skill came from. To me this is the proper way. :)

Americans are so smart, they can put a man on the moon, but they still study Karate!!!

[Spark]

From what I see, it seems everyone thinks it's ok for a sifu to disown a student but not the other way around. That it is disrespectful.

Cannot a sifu be disrespectful to the student? And thus warranting the student to 'disown' the sifu. I have heard that it is not that uncommon for sifus or high ranking students to have to do this because various reasons as keeping the student in thier class instead of telling them to go and teach, etc ...

[anerlich]

My own instructor left his instructor's organisation. He was not the first and won't be the last - my instructor's instructor has a almost legendary reputation for being difficult to work with. The parting of the ways occurred when my teacher's teacher spat the dummy at an innocent question a student asked during a seminar. He had a hissy fit and stormed out after my Sifu tried to respectfully intervene. I was there along with about 40 other people who saw exactly what happened.

Mentioning your lineage can be seen in (at least) two ways: you giving props to your teachers, but also your teachers underpinning your reputation. If you leave your teachers' organisation, it is arguably immoral to continue to use his name as a form of free advertising.

Doing this allowed my teacher to expand and grow in ways which would have been impossible before. He mentions his teacher if asked in respectful terms and acknowledges the debt, but we do not use his name in any promotional material and have a good enough reputation to stand alone anyway.

I was with a teacher of Xingyi and BaGua for about 5 years. I left there because the guy was a manipulative control freak. I was an assistant instructor. I don't mention this guy or my association with him except when enumerating my failings and foolish decisions. Teaching and respect are privileges, not rights.

This isn't 16th century Japan, where it's unquestioning obedience or seppuku. Respect IMHO should be hard earned and easily lost by a teacher. The student should give the benefit of the doubt and forgive minor transgressions, but should not accept bad behaviour from anybody. As James Keating says (I paraphrase), "Dont live your life according to someone else's sh#tty standards".

[whippinghand]

True. True. True.