Body Mechanics, Techniques and Strategy......

[Tigrentera]

I think there is a trio of things and that are inseparable to being a good fighter in your art.

1) Body Mechanics

2) Techniques

3) Strategies


If you do not have the correct body mechanics then you can not properly execute the techniques and therefore cannot effectively apply the styles strategy.

If you have the correct body mechanics and understand the strategy but you have a limited number of techniques from which to choose then your opponent will quickly figure you out.

You can also have the body mechanics and the techniques but you are unable to to apply them because you do not understand the strategy.

Agree? Disagree?

Discuss. ;)

[tug]

One cannot know how well one can do in any particular art unless that one knows themselves, i.e. - kinesiology.

That is body mechanics.

One cannot act or react properly, and with some measure of confidence, if that one does not know/understand the style studied and forms related to that style.

That is technique.

One cannot relate oneself to any logistics involved in confrontation without knowing what to do in several (myriad) situations, and having those logistics locked and loaded for use at a moment's notice.

That is strategy.

They all tie one into the other, and rely on each other for success.



Having said that, what about the idea of "free thinking" in relation to free-sparring? I think that is important as well, to not dwell so much on one specific technique, but, through practice and meditation, to be able to change course in the middle of reaction in order to confuse, surprise, and ultimately change the original outcome, whether necessary or not.

One must always keep one's opponent guessing.

Make sense?

:cool: Good post, Tigre.

[Tigrentera]

Hmmm...I thought about adding "mindset" or "attitude."

The tricky thing is that it could be included in strategy OR body mechanics OR technique...... depending on the art.

For example, in Taiji it is required to have a calm mind to do the body mechanics correctly.

In harder external arts the body mechanics are not so intimately tied to the mind.

The correct "attitude" is to be aggressive and unrelenting which is more of a "strategy."

In external arts they refer to something called Sha Qi (md) or Saat Hei (cnt) which means "killing aura." It is not the calm mind of Taiji.

If your mind is cluttered then you will not be able to do or remember the technique correctly no matter what your style.

I'm curious what other people think. :D

[tug]

I believe I was thinking the same thing with regard to the free-sparring note, I just couldn't come up with the proper terminology as you did with "mindset" and "attitude".

And you're right, since any one of your concepts can be related to the other (I think that's what you are saying), it's most important to have a clear, uncluttered mind. That can apply to anything in one's life, be it walking the dog, doing the dishes, balancing your checkbook, or belaying confrontation on the street.

Sorry to be so effusive, but this is one topic I am very interested in. Will let others chime in and give their 2 cents now.

[SPJ]

Agreed that the 3 are inseparable or interdependent.

Body mechanics is to practice the techniques right in positioning and generation of Jin's (at the right time and at the right place with right amount of Jin's) (strategy).

Strategy is dependent on the opponent's moves, postures and positions.

Strategy is to use needed techinques to solve fighting problems presented by the opponent.

Body mechanics and techiniques are soldiers.

Strategy is the general.

The opponent punches fast and strong.

You avoid the strongpoint and go to his weakest link.

You go low and sweep his leg or hook his knee.

If the opponent does fast kick, you then need to get close fast and throw.

You may not want to outpunch a fast kicker. Because the legs are longer than the arms. You may kick too, but if you are slow in kicking.

As if the horse or cow may kick you fatally, but you are close, they may only push you away and not able to kick you at full force.

If not; run away, because the opponent is better than you in punches and kicks.

Strategy is to fight only when you know you will win. If not, just walk away.

As if you know you will win, you then place your bet. If not, just walk away with the money/life in your pocket.

Good deal, best deal or no deal at all.

Value your assets (money/life/welbeing) wisely.

As if the thief or robber is going to take your money or life, do you say ahead or just run away.

If you know the opponent will beat you, the odds are not good, of course, you walk away.

:D

[Becca]

what about the idea of "free thinking" in relation to free-sparring?
The ability to do this while free-sparring is what I would call the pinical of all martial arts- the ability to fight well enough to keep one's body whole while still having the use of one's higher thinking to see the aftermath before it happens and be able to arrange things to alter that aftermath for the greater good, or personal good if you are not a saint.;)

[tug]

To hear the arrow before it is strung, that is kung fu.

[FuXnDajenariht]

if you have body mechanics and strategy mastered, would not technique come naturally? practicing specifics techniques too much could hinder the free flow of strategy which should be adaptable as tug pointed out..... could principles replace technique? which i guess could also be synonymous with strategy.......

maybe training natural reflexes would be more important than technique and quicker than any thought out strategy. i dont know much about tai chi or internal arts besides the little that ive read but isn't that why they focus on relaxation so much?

proper breathing > relaxation > more efficient/effortless body mechanics > quicker reflexes > free flowing technique... wouldn't that be the goal of "internal" arts? i know its a bit more complicated than that....

what am i missing?

agree or disagree?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
I think there is a trio of things and that are inseparable to being a good fighter in your art.

1) Body Mechanics

2) Techniques

3) Strategies

I'd add conditioning as a 4th.


If you do not have the correct body mechanics then you can not properly execute the techniques and therefore cannot effectively apply the styles strategy.

I don't want to apply the style's strategy, whatever that is. I want to employ MY strategy.

If you have the correct body mechanics and understand the strategy but you have a limited number of techniques from which to choose then your opponent will quickly figure you out.

limited techniques doesn't equate to predictability. How many boxers and thai boxers have you "figured out"? most competitive judoka have about 3 throws that they have mastered, but set up with other things. How many of them have you easily figured out? even with limited techniques, you attack in combinations. The number of combinations I can put together with 7 punches is WAY more than you can figure out before the fight is over. it's limitless.

You can also have the body mechanics and the techniques but you are unable to to apply them because you do not understand the strategy.

Once again, I want to employ MY strategy. You do need correct body mechanics and technique, but style doesn't necessarily dictate strategy.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by tug
One cannot know how well one can do in any particular art unless that one knows themselves, i.e. - kinesiology.

That is body mechanics.

One cannot act or react properly, and with some measure of confidence, if that one does not know/understand the style studied and forms related to that style.

That is technique.

That's not really true. people get mauled in the streets all the time. We've all likely seen MA get beat by streetfighters as well. Why? the streetfighter has awful mechanics. He has awful technique. He had the mindset to win. That is a 5th thing that I would add.

One cannot relate oneself to any logistics involved in confrontation without knowing what to do in several (myriad) situations, and having those logistics locked and loaded for use at a moment's notice.

That is strategy.

Once again, let's look at the street fighter. You're wearing a coat? I'm gonna pull it over your head so you can't see. You leave your foot out alot? I want to step on it and attack you fiercely until you step back and fall, because I am on your foot...

things like this happen, but how well are they ingrained? how do they ingrain them?

They all tie one into the other, and rely on each other for success.

no. you don't need good body mechanics to win a fight. Actually, you don't NEED any of them to win a fight. all you need is heart. Everything else just contributes to making you better.



Having said that, what about the idea of "free thinking" in relation to free-sparring? I think that is important as well, to not dwell so much on one specific technique, but, through practice and meditation, to be able to change course in the middle of reaction in order to confuse, surprise, and ultimately change the original outcome, whether necessary or not.

I don't think meditation has much to do with it. It can lend its hand in quieting the mind, but I don't think it's necessary. The way you get there is to spar. But you have to be conscious of what you are doing. video tape it, have your coach make corrections, give advice based on his observations, etc. make a conscious effort to flow when you spar.

[Tigrentera]

Sevenstar wrote:


I don't want to apply the style's strategy, whatever that is. I want to employ MY strategy.

Since this seems to be the crux of your argument. Let's discuss:

What is YOUR strategy. Define, por favor. ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tigrentera

In external arts they refer to something called Sha Qi (md) or Saat Hei (cnt) which means "killing aura." It is not the calm mind of Taiji.


It could be. Do you think it's not possible to be relentless with a calm mind?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
Sevenstar wrote:



Since this seems to be the crux of your argument. Let's discuss:

What is YOUR strategy. Define, por favor. ;)

There really is no one definition. Is he taller than me? I want to get inside of him and wear him out with knees, body shots, hooks and uppercuts.

Do I have a longer reach than him? I want to keep him at bay - jabs and teeps most of the time.

In general, I like to keep people away until I am ready to get in on them. I have a long reach, which I use to my advantage. I jab alot. I have a stiff jab and good reach to use it with.

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by SevenStar
There really is no one definition. Is he taller than me? I want to get inside of him and wear him out with knees, body shots, hooks and uppercuts.

Do I have a longer reach than him? I want to keep him at bay - jabs and teeps most of the time.

In general, I like to keep people away until I am ready to get in on them. I have a long reach, which I use to my advantage. I jab alot. I have a stiff jab and good reach to use it with.

But in these examples, you are using techniques that reflect a strategy and are supported by certain body mechanics.

If you did Taiji, for example, the strategy would be different. You would not want to keep your "opponent at bay" you would want to bring him "close as possible" in order to control him.

Another example, most TCMA's strategy is to stay off the ground. That is a strategy and so there techniques and body mechanic training reflect this.

Obviously, THE STRATEGY (ie how you deal with each individual opponent) is not going to be the same for each opponent but that is not really what I'm referring to in terms of "strategy."

I'm referring to the overall strategy of the style. That strategy is based on certain assumptions.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
if you have body mechanics and strategy mastered, would not technique come naturally? practicing specifics techniques too much could hinder the free flow of strategy which should be adaptable as tug pointed out..... could principles replace technique? which i guess could also be synonymous with strategy.......

of the three, strategy would be last. techniques and body mechanics have to be taught in an MA environment. How can a technique come natrually if you've never been taught it? What you are referring to is an application. yes, those can come naturally.


proper breathing > relaxation > more efficient/effortless body mechanics > quicker reflexes > free flowing technique... wouldn't that be the goal of "internal" arts? i know its a bit more complicated than that....


external arts have that goal also.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
But in these examples, you are using techniques that reflect a strategy and are supported by certain body mechanics.

naturally the techniques are from a system. the strategy is mine. the strategy itself isn't supported by body mechanics. It also is supported by me. There are long range and short range techniques in my style - there's no set strategy dictated by it.

If you did Taiji, for example, the strategy would be different. You would not want to keep your "opponent at bay" you would want to bring him "close as possible" in order to control him.

That's not a strategy per se. It's a characteristic of the style....

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by SevenStar
[B] proper breathing > relaxation > more efficient/effortless body mechanics > quicker reflexes > free flowing technique... wouldn't that be the goal of "internal" arts? i know its a bit more complicated than that....


external arts have that goal also.

Except IMA's idea of "relaxation" goes way beyond external arts concept of relaxation.

In IMA's you have to become so relaxed you become like something with no bones, like a big bag of water.

In EMA's you have to have good structure and muscle coordination but unless you specifically train the IMA-like body mechanics (some EMA's do) I don't think you will reach quite the same level of "relaxation."

[SevenStar]

I encourage you to roll with a bjj guy.

[WinterPalm]

I agree that those are very important but mindset, including a fighting attitude, is essential. All of these things are heightened by meditation, which should be a staple in a martial artist's life. All of the techniques and practice can get one good enough to fight, but without mindset and training in meditation, one would be left to use the body primarily, and the mind is clearly more advanced.
I would put conditioning in there as well. If you can't hit a target without hurting your hand, foot, forearm, or even your leg, you've got trouble. Likewise if you can't take a hit to any area, except maybe the face or groin, but I suppose some people can condition these areas but if you can, I guess they should be conditioned. Plus, if you get winded after twenty seconds of sparring and your opponent isn't on the ground or twisted up and screaming uncle, you've got to be able to keep going because although great technique and a killing mindset to end the fight early are essential, one should be prepared for some time lapsing before it is over.

I would disagree, Sevenstar, that the Judoka having only three actual throws and a myraid of setups would actually indicate he has quite a few techniques. Isn't the set, the launch, the side stepping and the forward or reverse body movement in a punch considered part of the technique? I think you may have been considering the actual end result technique. But to get in there one has to have a lot of techniques to set everything up to go properly.

Tigrentera, you wrote that the body mechanics are not so tied to the mind in an external style. I would like you to expand upon this. My Sifu stressed meditation as a must for a martial artist and that without it one will not achieve higher levels in sparring and combat. I believe the mind is just a necessary, for the testing ground is very violatile and a calm, focused mind would be much more necessary than say, in a tai chi pushhands session where losing focus isn't going to result in getting slammed into the ground or knocked out.

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
But in these examples, you are using techniques that reflect a strategy and are supported by certain body mechanics.

naturally the techniques are from a system. the strategy is mine.

So you don't think the techniques only work with in the context of a certain strategy? I don't follow.



the strategy itself isn't supported by body mechanics. It also is supported by me.

No, the strategy only works if you have the body mechanics and the techniques to back it up.



There are long range and short range techniques in my style - there's no set strategy dictated by it.

Well, your techniques come from somewhere, we've established that. The techniques and body mechanics work together in the context of certain strategy.....a strategy that makes certain assumptions. The strategy is flexible but only within the parameter of the body mechanics and techniques which you have trained. Sure, ideally you should be able to adapt your strategy to what the situation demands but to make it work you have to have the training to back it up.


If you did Taiji, for example, the strategy would be different. You would not want to keep your "opponent at bay" you would want to bring him "close as possible" in order to control him.

That's not a strategy per se. It's a characteristic of the style....

Taiji has lots of "characteristics" and one of those "characteristics" is a STRATEGY of yielding to force.

You're just playing semantics now.

:rolleyes:

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
Tigrentera, you wrote that the body mechanics are not so tied to the mind in an external style. I would like you to expand upon this. My Sifu stressed meditation as a must for a martial artist and that without it one will not achieve higher levels in sparring and combat. I believe the mind is just a necessary, for the testing ground is very violatile and a calm, focused mind would be much more necessary than say, in a tai chi pushhands session where losing focus isn't going to result in getting slammed into the ground or knocked out.

I think a focused and agressive mind is useful in EMA's. However, in Taiji the focus is to relaxation and a calm mind so that the body can follow suit..it's much more like sitting meditation. Its a difficult distinction and not so clear cut as I may have been making it to sound. Something I still wrestle with....am I too calm...am I too aggresive?.....etc. :confused:

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I encourage you to roll with a bjj guy.

You mean on the ground? Ooh gross!!

How 'bout "rolling" with a Taiji guy on your feet. ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by WinterPalm

I would disagree, Sevenstar, that the Judoka having only three actual throws and a myraid of setups would actually indicate he has quite a few techniques. Isn't the set, the launch, the side stepping and the forward or reverse body movement in a punch considered part of the technique? I think you may have been considering the actual end result technique.

Judoka definitely have plenty of techniques. But, they typically have that limited number that they have honed to the point of high proficiency for shiai usage. So, according to the statement made earlier, judoka should be very predictable. I think otherwise.

But to get in there one has to have a lot of techniques to set everything up to go properly.

as compared to whom? a boxer has very few techniques, especially when compared to most traditional styles.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
You mean on the ground? Ooh gross!!

How 'bout "rolling" with a Taiji guy on your feet. ;)

:D

I have recently. but seriously, roll with a good bjj guy, then think about your statement on external styles and relaxation - you might be surprised.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
So you don't think the techniques only work with in the context of a certain strategy? I don't follow.

no, not necessarily. a jab is a probing punch. it can be used to keep an opponent at bay. but, it can also be used to set up attacks. Whether your strategy is to get in or stay out, the jab can be utilized.




No, the strategy only works if you have the body mechanics and the techniques to back it up.

that's not true at all. the strategy works BETTER if you have those things.


Taiji has lots of "characteristics" and one of those "characteristics" is a STRATEGY of yielding to force.

You're just playing semantics now.

:rolleyes:

you're right, I am, but because there is a difference. yielding is a principle. there is a difference between a principle and a strategy. Thai fighters yield, as do judoka. It's merely a principle.

[mickey]

Greetings,

What happened to strength,internal and external, and endurance?

The big three are important. But if that is all that you have, don't be surprised after you have tee-d off on a guy to see him hand you some deep penetrating massage oil and point to his shoulder.

mickey