Why aren't you...

[David Jamieson]

marketing yourself strategically.

Just a note for school owners and others.

There are a lot of people in the MA business who offer training for personal body guards, leo, pg's etc etc.

I noticed last night that there is a strong market for counter terror tactics training and also womens self defense. People who hit on these niches appear to be quite successful.

I know counter - terror is the new fad seeing as terrorism as we know it has only been around for a few decades (a la crazy arabic suicide bombers et al)

Anyway, how many Kungfu teachers are also certified to instruct in practical/tactical small arms use? Firearms certification courses in general?

If you are looking at giving martial arts instruction in the most realistic of venues and methods, why aren't you instructing in firearms use?


As we all know, martial arts as we know them are boxed into being sport or art. I thought that if a person wanted to get back to reality with them, then the inclusion of tactical weapons training is absolutely important.

any thoughts?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
If you are looking at giving martial arts instruction in the most realistic of venues and methods, why aren't you instructing in firearms use?

The concept of "traditional" could be an issue here. Plus the effort of an instructor getting him/herself trained and certified to a position to be able to teach others.

Then there's the whole issue and expense of getting a firing range built in your gwoon. ;)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

I noticed last night that there is a strong market for counter terror tactics training and also womens self defense. People who hit on these niches appear to be quite successful.



This is my biggest Pet Peeve in the martial arts. Unqualified people teaching 'women's self defense' classes. These are the types that get people raped or killed.

[David Jamieson]

well water dragon, what do you think the criteria is to be qualified to teach people to handle themselves in hypothetical situations that could in fact become realities in todays climate?

and what is it that makes you an authority on what "qualfied" is or isn't beyond the obvious hinderances ie: charlatan with no training ever marketing sd class for women. But even then how can you know.

In teh end, people want this and they will generally go to the closest place that offers it. I believe it is incumbant upon the proprietor of said lessons to be able to affirm some sort of QA.

But other than that, if you can show some people how to effectively evade danger or to defend themselves, then isn't that qualification?

now, about the tactical/practical shooting, I understand about the difficulty of licensing this activity (not so hard in the states as in Canada) and how it is almost completely alien to many martial arts instructors out there. Heck, I'll bet tehre are more than not who have never actually had a gun in their hand, but that shouldn't stop them from getting a person who can.

I just feel that in this day of "reality and live" that the inclusion of practical shooting makes sense, especially in those states where it is legal to carry fireamrs concealed or otherwise.

any more comments?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
any more comments?

Yes, I have a few.

When I was in college, I was heavily involved in the 'Take Back the Night' and women's awareness programs on campus. I helped organize events, brought in experts, I learned a lot.

We've had the Police come in and give prgrams, we've had Women's Advocacy and Battered Women's groups come in. We've even had convicted rapsits come in and give programs on what makes a victim and how to avoid being one.

The martial arts are the LAST place I would recommend for a women's defense program. Women's self defense has nothing to do with fighting. If a woman finds herself in a situation where she must fight, she is probably already raped or dead.

Women's defense needs to focus on awareness, location, and communication. Plan your routes so you're always in public. Wear sneakers and put on your pumps when you get to where you're going. Call a friend before you leave and then call when you get to your destination so that a friend know when you're leaving and that you arrived safely. Yell"fire" instead of "rape"

These types of things have nothing to do with fighting or the martial arts.

My reality is that if a woman wnats to learn how to physically defend herself against a man, she needs to know whatit feel slike to have a 200 pound man on top of her trying to have his way with her. She needs to know what it feels like to have a grown man trying to punch her into submission so that she can deal with that.

Most men don't want to go that route, much less the majority of women. But that is the reality.

Martial Arts are great for women. They provide a LOT of benefits. Unfortunately, realistic self defense is not going to be one of those for the majority and I feel it is a crime to try and tell them otherwise.

[David Jamieson]

That's what I'm saying WD.

Why is it such a big stretch to update the curriculums to reflect modern times while still maintain traditional training and health aspects?

I don't think it's a big deal for a tma instructor to go out and continue to learn. IN fact I think it is 100% necessary that a MA instructor always continue to look at the society s/he lives in and to figure out the best ways to maintain security and peace of mind through the practices and lessons taught.

I also don't think that semantics or repositioning of knowledge is an argument for non-inclusion to teh martial arts curriculum.

I am 100% behind any gov initiative or rather social contract initiative that makes the standards for teaching and running sd or ma schools scrutinizable. There needs to be standards and there needs to be updates to the functions of martial arts in everyday living. While most of the framework exists, if things aren't flexible and adaptable to the times they are in, then they have outlived their usefulness and become mere museum pieces kept only for posterity and tradition.

[red5angel]

I noticed last night that there is a strong market for counter terror tactics training and also womens self defense. People who hit on these niches appear to be quite successful.


bwahahahahaa! Not only is most women's self defense classes a joke, and by most I say 99.9%, but the idea of a "counter-terror" class makes me ROFL. Take a handgun course, or better yet, join the military if you want to learn counter terrorism.

[Chief Fox]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I am 100% behind any gov initiative or rather social contract initiative that makes the standards for teaching and running sd or ma schools scrutinizable. There needs to be standards and there needs to be updates to the functions of martial arts in everyday living. While most of the framework exists, if things aren't flexible and adaptable to the times they are in, then they have outlived their usefulness and become mere museum pieces kept only for posterity and tradition. [/B]

Am I hearing your correctly? You would support some kind of official governing body that would standardize all martial arts? First of all who the heck is qualified to govern the standards of all martial arts? Second of all, this type of governing body would effectively water down and destroy the uniqueness of the different martial arts styles.

You can learn self deffense and awareness in weekend course. You can learn how to handle a hand gun in a weekend. To me Kung Fu is a life long pusuit. I'm in it because of the traditional elements. These traditional elelments are the first things that would go if there was an overall governing body.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Chief Fox
You can learn how to handle a hand gun in a weekend.

Yeah, about as well as you can learn Kung Fu in a weekend.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Yeah, about as well as you can learn Kung Fu in a weekend.

.22s are light and have little recoil and are cheap to shoot. sure it takes a couple shots to ut them down though.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
.22s are light and have little recoil and are cheap to shoot. sure it takes a couple shots to ut them down though.

The trick is not in pulling the trigger. The trick is in getting the bullet to go where you want it to.

[FuXnDajenariht]

least they can live out their delta force fantasies....

do they teach bomb disarming? :o

[Chief Fox]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Yeah, about as well as you can learn Kung Fu in a weekend.

I said handle a gun. As in learn all the basics. Of course just like anything else, it would take practice to become proficient at it. But after a weekend of instruction you would have a solid enough base to proceed on your own.

[David Jamieson]

Am I hearing your correctly? You would support some kind of official governing body that would standardize all martial arts? First of all who the heck is qualified to govern the standards of all martial arts? Second of all, this type of governing body would effectively water down and destroy the uniqueness of the different martial arts styles.

Yes I would support an official governing body that would standardize martial arts. Wouldn't you? Who says it would be negative and the only thing that would be destroyed would be the charlatans who already exist.

Like in how it works with say the IBF or the WBC. I don't know why this is such a stretch. I am of course barring esoteric practices associated with any of it (afterall, some boxers do yoga too :p) and am strictly looking at raw content that can be governed in context to the wider body and its presentation to the public. IE goals and objectives as opposed to methodology. of course anyone who chose to remain in their own orb would certainly be welcome to do so. I think this actually hurts martial arts practice more than it helps. It limits the chances of survival of an art.




You can learn self deffense and awareness in weekend course. You can learn how to handle a hand gun in a weekend. To me Kung Fu is a life long pusuit. I'm in it because of the traditional elements. These traditional elelments are the first things that would go if there was an overall governing body.

I disagree. You cannot learn sd in a weekend anymore than you can learn guitar overnight. I also think the timeline on correct firearms handling is a little longer than the length of a show and tell.

Kungfu is a life long pursuit, so why shouldn't it have more appeal to everyone? Why must it remain in obscurity? The traditional elements would not be lost by a governing body. If anything they would be strengthened. Look at all the Kungfu sifu who have in fact themselves made the initiative to make this happen. Many sifu have banded together to form organizations that are more or less federations that aspire to the same goals and objectives and as well standardize while remaining flexible in presentation with their arts.

Lion Dance venue and competition is a huge example of this.
As is Competitive wushu, all arguments aside, any of these things can co-exist in harmony.

I certainly think that adaptation and flexibility is key to the growth and survival of traditional martial arts. New traditions are the hallmark of healthy practice. It grows.

[rogue]

99% of the self defense courses are a waste of everyones time. From my experience people who take self defense courses are looking for quick fix so that they can feel safe rather than be safer. I helped with one SD class that was pretty good. The guy running it made it cheap to get people in, I think $100 a year for weekly 2+ hour sessions. We tried to keep it somewhat real but not psycho, but that scared people away. We had paramedics, spec-ops and LEOs come in and give talks about violence and what happens, and that scared people off. We had spec-ops guys teach about facing sticks, knives and guns and that scared people off. The majority of men and women who joined lasted four to six weeks. We even had martial artists that got scared off saying that's not what they got into MA for! The thing is we were nowhere near what the RMCAT guys are doing or even a good sport fighting school in terms of intensity and realism.


Women's defense needs to focus on awareness, location, and communication. Plan your routes so you're always in public. Wear sneakers and put on your pumps when you get to where you're going. Call a friend before you leave and then call when you get to your destination so that a friend know when you're leaving and that you arrived safely. Yell"fire" instead of "rape"
Good stuff WD but people are still not safe following those rules. They may think they are but they're not. People have to be reminded that where ever they are that's the most likely place they'll be attacked.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by rogue
Good stuff WD but people are still not safe following those rules. They may think they are but they're not. People have to be reminded that where ever they are that's the most likely place they'll be attacked.

Well, I think it depends on how you look at it. Even as a 185 pound trained man who usually carries and can usae both a knife and a handgun, I am vulnerable. I can be attacked.

The things that we covered in the programs greeatly reduced the chances of being attacked though if you do what is said and maintain you're awareness.

There is always a chance of being attacked and there is always the chance of ending up in a situation where you are helpless. But there's also a point where preparedness turns into Paranoia. There comes a point where you just have to accept that and live your life. Otherwise you're going to be hiding in your house forever and wonder what happened to your life when you turn 80.

[rogue]

I agree 100% WD. To me self defense is more of a lifestyle than a set of rules. You are aware of what's out there but you don't focus on it.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Chief Fox
I said handle a gun. As in learn all the basics. Of course just like anything else, it would take practice to become proficient at it. But after a weekend of instruction you would have a solid enough base to proceed on your own.
Mmmmmm..... No. In a weekend, a.k.a. 16 hours, a person can know the parts, how to disassemble, clean and then reasemble, and shoot some rounds. This is weapon operation, not defence. Nor is it "all the basics." I spent 3 years deeling with eyots who though 12 weeks of bootcamp made them "proficient". I also got to call several ambulances because they really had no clue. And no, they did not all shoot themselves or someone else. Most were from sticking fingers where they didn't belong, or reassemleing a weapon in a singularly stupid way.:(

[Becca]

If a woman finds herself in a situation where she must fight, she is probably already raped or dead.
If you take the time to learn all of the system, not just the showy parts, you will learn this type of skill better than any self-defence course could teach it. BTW, this is what is called semantics.

[Gowgee]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
marketing yourself strategically.

Just a note for school owners and others.

I noticed last night that there is a strong market for... womens self defense. People who hit on these niches appear to be quite successful.

any thoughts?

When you have a look at the way traditional martial arts have been taught for the past few generations, they have mostly come down through physical training, spoken instruction and written texts for study. Sometimes teachers might address topics like everyday awareness, or traditional tactics against difficult situations like multiple attackers, or how to break out of certain scenarios.

Take a step back from self-defence and look at daily safety. de Becker's book, the Gift of Fear (http://www.gavindebecker.com/books-gof.cfm) is an excellent work, and deals with unwanted advances, stalkers, dealing with difficult people and common-sense safety. So I suggest that while people marketing themselves as "women's self defence" instructors that have people participate in wailling on a guy in body armour might teach some simple physical basics on a somewhat resisting opponent, these skills (if not practiced regularly) will dissapear from people's short term memories. If the aim is to serve yourself as a successful instructor, all the more power to you, but if your aim is to serve your students, why not start of with giving them the reference for the book above or other similar works. After all, awareness of risks to one's safety, and skills in dealing with these are more valuable than a seldom used pak sao.

My 2 cents

[Gowgee]

Crap I sound like an infomercial :eek:

Just some thoughts anyway.

[David Jamieson]

lol, not really. :p

i have that book and it is good.