Tanglang and Sanda

[mantis108]

This clip has been bouncing around in the other KFO forums.

Lei Tai Bei Wu 1986 (http://www.jiayo.com/videos/86_leitai.mov)

I have seen this clip before and I have commented on it before. What is interesting this time arround is that it is poorly recieved all over forums on the internet.

First off, I believe this is during a time (1980s) when PROC's sports creation going through a soul searching period. It wants to going back to the martial roots of fighting rather than performing. Later we see the development of San Shou competition. Judging from the criticism this clip generated, it is sad to acknowledge that few have real experiences with CMA fighting and/or dead set on the patterned paradigm. It is almost as if everyone in CMA is looking for the graceful dance like contest of "skill" rather than substantial realistic contact. The little to no protection and the allowance for Da Ti Na Shuai shown in this clip illustrate the willingness to show what CMA fighting attributes are like. If it looks augry, it is because this is unrehearsed. That's the fundamental difference between fighting and exhibition. This is still Sanda not San Shou the sport yet.

Now what does this have to with Tangland and Sanda?

I recently came across a few interesting VCDs from mainland China, courtesy of a friend from Florida (thanks Paul). 3 of them are highly of note. This is a series of Taiji Meihwa Tanglang material. It includes TJMHPM Ba Duan Jin, TJMHPM Meihwalu, and TJMHPM San Hui Ju Zhuan Huan Yang Fa. Now BDJ and SHJZHYF are considered advanced material and even secret stuff. This is already quite "shocking" yet even more so is the person who is a TJMHPM practitioner also coaches Sanda (6th - 7th degree national ranking). He not only introduced the material in its traditional context but he also references it with Sanda. I am usually highly critical of material coming from China but this time I have the utmost respect for this particular production. It has just brighten up the future not only for PM but also for TCMA and modern Wushu/San Shou. This series carries a strong and definitive message that it doesn't matter how CMA is going to evolve, our beloved art - Tanglangquan will always be there and will take the leading role in forging ahead with real and honest attitude, which btw is one of the 10 admonitions of Tanglang!

This is the type of material that I always support not the form demo glore. Brain candy is alway better than eye candy. I think the TCMA community in China is heading towards a promising future if this trend continues. So my friends do look out for this material.

Mantis108

PS I think Tainan has been working on a translation of the 10 admonitions of Tanglang. May be we can look forward for an article of that in the MQ.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

mantis108
"It is almost as if everyone in CMA is looking for the graceful dance like contest of "skill" rather than substantial realistic contact."

Sad to say but I think the fault lies with the old KF flicks and modern demos. Recently there was a poster (Enforcer) that seemed to think the old KF flicks are what fighting is supposed to look like.

I haven't watched the clip yet (downloading now with dialup) so I can't comment on that.

Could you elaborate more on the VCDs (some info to help identify them, I can't read Chinese) so I can keep an eye out for them?

[mantis108]

Sorry, I click the wrong button on the other thread. So I bring this over this thread.


mantis108
"It is almost as if everyone in CMA is looking for the graceful dance like contest of "skill" rather than substantial realistic contact."

Sad to say but I think the fault lies with the old KF flicks and modern demos. Recently there was a poster (Enforcer) that seemed to think the old KF flicks are what fighting is supposed to look like.

I haven't watched the clip yet (downloading now with dialup) so I can't comment on that.

I hear you; hence, my rant. ;)


Could you elaborate more on the VCDs (some info to help identify them, I can't read Chinese) so I can keep an eye out for them?

Getting back to the London Mantis website it's unfortunate that there isn't enough substantial information there to determine what the style is about. At first I thought it might be a variation of Wah Lum from Sifu David Hawkins (ex-WL who switched to CLF) but after viewing the website it's obviously something else.

All I can tell is that they are Taiji Meihwa Tanglang martial (a series). The person's name is Mo Chun(spring) qian (move) who is also a Sanda coach. The one with Meihwalu form has applications and there is an other Sanda coach helping as "researching" and discussing the apps.

Hope this helps

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I have 2 VCDs from 2 different series. One is Taiji Meihwa and has a guy in white on the front with a yin/yang symbol. Two red characters are 8 something (elbows I think). The other one I forget which style but the gentleman is balding. Haven't looked at them in awhile but I don't think there are apps on the second one. I think Plum carries both series.

Just checked the website at
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_mantistaichi.htm
and it is 8 Elbows (vcd#235) but it is Taiji Mantis.

Could yours be here:
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_mantisTCmeihua.htm
vcd#628?

My other one is Liuhe vcd#179 shown here:
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_mantisliuhe.htm

What is your take on these?

[mantis108]

Hi Hualin,

Thanks for the links.

The first link is Sun De's collection. He is from Cai Shou Shan lineage if I am not mistaken. I have seen one of his VCD sort of an introduction of this series in the link. I am afraid that I am not impressed with them at all. However, I would not mind seeing the series just to be thorough. BTW, his intention is good though.

The second link: I have seen the first one #576 which is absolute garbage (pardon the language). So don't bother wasting your money on it. #628 and #629 are the ones that I was talking about. There should be one more - Ba Duan Jin. Then there is Zhang Bingdou. I believe he shared his knowledge with Wah Lum style before. Exactly how much I don't know. I believe there were Lanjie and Zhaiyao 1 at least. May be Bengbu as well. He is always an interesting and colorful PM Shifu. So I wouldn't mind checking those out. But there is no guarantee if it worths the money.

Third Link: Zhang Dao Jing is definitely worth it. Now, I am not sure of the VCD because. I haven't seen it and how he presented it. I can only say that I have seen some of his performances and articles in Chinese that I am quite impressed with.

I have to said that I have no affiliation with any of the above school nor teacher. It is solely my opinion and it does not go to say which is better style, school, or teacher wise.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[BeiTangLang]

Anyone else see these vcd's or have comments on their contents?? I have always been warry of ordering these for fear of lack of content.

[BeiTangLang]

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_mantis7star.htm

I am not familiar with "Shihfu Huo RuiTing a fourth generation inheritor of 7 Star Mantis style." that is on these.

Anyone??

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

The 8 Elbows VCD I have shows some applications but I'm not really impressed. Quite a few takedowns but they remind me of schoolyard 'push 'em on his butt' apps. I prefer takedowns that do damage (unless you plan on following down and rolling). That's why I didn't purchase any more in that series.

The Six Harmony VCD looks good but doesn't show any apps. I'm not familiar with any of the sets in this series.

[mantis108]

Now, here's another interesting Mainland PM Master. The buzz is that he professes to know the actual "forms" listed in the Shaolin Authentics. So...

Hualin,

Thanks for the input. I haven't seen his Bazhou apps. When I saw his performance of Bazhou (first section only), I couldn't help but wonder. Bazhou is a very complex form and the apps as I know them are awesome. Oh, well...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[puja]

I do have some of these VCDs. Haven't watched them really much, but here some comments nonetheless:
TJMHPM Zhai Yao 1 by Zhang Bing Dou:
with applitcations, but I don't like his flavour. Also only few good applications imho
Then I have 3 (Zhao Mien Deng, Shaung Feng and Chun-Yang Jian) of the Liu He Series by Zhan Dao Jing:
imho nice flavour and with very detailed explanation of each technique (although my chinese is way too bad for understanding him), but sadly without applications :(
I think there was a clip here on KFO called eventshow-1.wmv with some extracts of performances of tanglang shifus. Among others Zhang Dao Jing performes Chun Yang Jian and some empty-hand form there.

Best regards,

Puja

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

To be honest my comment on the apps is a recollection of my impression from watching the VCD. I haven't gone over it extensively and will pull them out and have a second look.

As I recall there wasn't much in the way of damaging takedowns. Now to tie this in with the topic of this post you will notice that the takedowns in the Lei Tai clip (with the exception of the guy landing on his head) are not damaging and the player just gets back up to continue fighting. That might score a point in a tournament but does little in a street fight. Now if the goal is self defense it's a good opportunity to get the hellio out of there while he's down.

This can also be tied into all the recent groundfighting/grappling threads and discussions. If the takedown is not damaging and you are not strictly defensive then you must follow up with a finishing move (or two). Otherwise you're back to square one standing or in the grapplers arena. What I haven't seen in any apps demos is finishing moves. What happened to them?

To an outsider it would appear that the style is weak and not realistic. And it's possible that this aspect of fighting may be lost in some styles.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Just wanted to clarify that I realize those apps do have value. Sometimes you need to subdue without damage (bouncer at bar, drunk relative at family gathering). And I know that putting damaging apps out to the general public might lead you into a lawsuit when some kids gets a hold of it and tries the moves on his sister (how I learned Judo from a book when I was about 10).

[mantis108]

It's always a great pleasure discussing things with you because you just point out great questions all the time. :D


To be honest my comment on the apps is a recollection of my impression from watching the VCD. I haven't gone over it extensively and will pull them out and have a second look.

Well, I am not questioning your impression and opinion because I believe you have the background enough to make a fair assessment. I always appreciate your inputs.


As I recall there wasn't much in the way of damaging takedowns. Now to tie this in with the topic of this post you will notice that the takedowns in the Lei Tai clip (with the exception of the guy landing on his head) are not damaging and the player just gets back up to continue fighting. That might score a point in a tournament but does little in a street fight. Now if the goal is self defense it's a good opportunity to get the hellio out of there while he's down.

Now this is extremely interesting. First off, we need to discern street fighting and Lei Tai Bei Wu (traditional also call Da Lei Bei Wu). Lei Tai is as close to combat sports as it gets in TCMA. So there is certain rule and regulations (or rather etiquette) one has to observe. BTW, in the last issue of Mantis Quarterly, there was a translation on an article of WHF that addressed certain issue of Lei Tai.

We also have to understand the custom of Da Lei (striking the beat) and the spirit of Bei Wu (matching martial skills). This activity is not street fighting although it is often and traditionally viewed by many as such. There is a lot of pride and ego involved. People today seldom think of what the term Lei Tai came from. It was adopted from the military culture. In ancient times, battle beings with beating the drums (sort of heart beat of the confrontation or setting the tempo so to speak) and ends with a gong (or sounding the metal to collect the troops). If the battle is important and morale is crucial, the commander in chief will personally beats the drum. That's an great honour to the troops and they will fight a great fight. The battle also would traditionally open with the representives (high ranking officiers) from both side matching their skills first. Then the troops will attack after this "show". This custom (matching the skill) with the format (beating the drums - Lei Gu) becomes one of the main criteria to pass the government military exam. Again there is great honour involved. It is civilized martial affair (see the paradox? lol...)

Unfortunately, the custom and the honour has long been forgotten at the grass root level. The way to count rounds on the Lei Tai is also different. The more rounds winning will determine the winner. It is determined by who was takedown, thrown, or chased off. Each round could be very short (within seconds). That's why in the old text you read stuff like they matched a 100 rounds. This is also how the concept of Jiao (combinations and countering) evolved. This in turn makes people frowns on not able to stand in a stance and fight, and ground fighting. but as you said street fighting is different. Unless Lei Tai evolves, we would not see much clinch, nor ground fighting. In that case comparing Lei Tai to MMA events would be comparing apple to pear. Clinch skills and ground skills will always be the "Bete Noir" for TCMA. Damaging techniques would always be the major obsession and obstacle in Kung Fu develope which in the end means a better person. Is a destroyer better person than a preserver? Now that's the question.


This can also be tied into all the recent groundfighting/grappling threads and discussions. If the takedown is not damaging and you are not strictly defensive then you must follow up with a finishing move (or two). Otherwise you're back to square one standing or in the grapplers arena. What I haven't seen in any apps demos is finishing moves. What happened to them?

Certainly, great point. Well, it all depends if your goal is to be a street fighter or a martial artist. Could you be both? Personally, I don't think we need damaging moves to incapacitate a person but we do need good finishing moves both standing or ground such as Chin Na.


To an outsider it would appear that the style is weak and not realistic. And it's possible that this aspect of fighting may be lost in some styles.

I hear you. ;)


Just wanted to clarify that I realize those apps do have value. Sometimes you need to subdue without damage (bouncer at bar, drunk relative at family gathering). And I know that putting damaging apps out to the general public might lead you into a lawsuit when some kids gets a hold of it and tries the moves on his sister (how I learned Judo from a book when I was about 10).

I am the kind of person that thinks most everything would work under the right condition. So... Personally, if there is a disclaimer, warning and advice to seek professional instructions, the responsibility is not yours. I really don't think that's a good excuse these days for not showing the real stuff. It's either the apps don't cut it or there is financial consideration (me being a conspirecy theorist) ;), either way not good.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Laviathan]

A few comments on the VCD's... (All are well-known teachers in China, and I am not in the position to judge their skills... Just giving some of my opinions, please bare with me)

Seven Star Huo Ruiting: Sorry to say so, but I was very dissapointed when I watched his VCD... No connection at all, sloppy moves and footwork. Very poor level.

Taiji Tanglang Sun De: Certainly better than Huo, but with certain stylistic aspects which I am not happy about. At the beginning of the forms he stands on his toes, many of his punches are directed to the ground etc. It just looks very "strange" to me, but it is probably due to my inexperience with his particular style of Mantis.

Six Harmony Zhang Daojin: Great forms and good connection, yet no applications. In China, I was told that Mr Zhang is a good form player but he does not know the fighting applications of Liuhe.

Taiji Meihua Zhang Bingdou: Best overall quality. His movements are a bit too short and lack the circular flow of Taiji Meihua, IMHO, but his great Sword form makes it all very redeeming. Personally I do not really like his flavour, but on the whole his vcd has good explanation of fighting concepts, good performance... Worth your money! BTW, is it just me, or was only the first half of the Yilu Zhaiyao shown?

Anyway, just some of my views, for what it's worth...

[mantis108]

Thanks for the input. BTW, the standing on the toe part (preparation form?) is an important and unique Qigong Element in Classical Tanglang. There is a theoretical study and application of it which is not well known until recently. One might say this is the "Fa" (Dharma) of Tanglang. Just thought it might be of interest.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

I concur with Robert.
Standing on the toes is essential in certain branches of PM.
The lungs are filled with air as you raise on the toes then the heels slam down as all the chi is forced out.

This is from the chi gung aspect of PM.
Interesting to note that 18 luohan gung also has this exact same move well described in its ancient text.

That is a discussion on Robert's forum(when I get more time).

I've seen all most of the vcd.

Sunde is ok.
Excellent waist.
You often see that the motion of his arms is directed bty the waist and little or less motion taking place at the shoulder.

When doing PM like this not only is the fajing ok, but it is not as tiring and you get a back massage from the twisting postures.

So I would say this method is good for people who don't have a live in massuesse(or is that massuer?).

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by mantis108
Thanks for the input. BTW, the standing on the toe part (preparation form?) is an important and unique Qigong Element in Classical Tanglang. There is a theoretical study and application of it which is not well known until recently. One might say this is the "Fa" (Dharma) of Tanglang. Just thought it might be of interest.


Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
I concur with Robert.
Standing on the toes is essential in certain branches of PM.
The lungs are filled with air as you raise on the toes then the heels slam down as all the chi is forced out.

This is from the chi gung aspect of PM.
Interesting to note that 18 luohan gung also has this exact same move well described in its ancient text.

Thank you both for the wonderful explanation.

I have never seen this movement performed in the Beijing branch of Taiji Meihua that I practice. It seems to me that Luohan Gong is not part of the curriculum (but I might be wrong). In the final stages of training, a certain Taoist qigong method is taught based on the "Neijing Tu" (Inner Meridian Chart) and the "Xiuzhen Tu" (Cultivating Truth Chart). This method is said to have been created by Qiu Chuji, one of the Seven Sages of Northern Taoism. These two charts can be found carved in the walls of the White Cloud Temple of Beijing. My teacher told me that only one of his kungfu brothers managed to master this art.

Greetings,

Rene

[mantis108]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks. Great to hear from you. :) Yeah, I am looking forward to discuss that further.

Hi Rene,

You are most welcome. Thank you very much for sharing your style's info. :)The internal aspect of your line seems very interesting. Just curious Was there an explanation on how this come to the style? Qiu Chuji is very important figure in the development of Daoism. He had the ears of Genhgis Khan if I am not mistaken.

Hi Wolfen,

There are some but they are in Chinese. Not much is available in English except may be Shifu Ilya Profatilov has mentioned about it.

<<<I didn'y see tai-ji mantis.
But what's this about tai-ji mantis punching towards the ground?>>>

I am not sure which move you are referring to. I need to see the context of the move. But there is a (Qigong) reason for punching both fists towards the ground.

<<<Mostly i thought of that Luo Han Gong movement to balance and practice/condition body drop.
But TM has a nice explanation and puts the concentration on it as an internal as well as practical exercise.>>>

If you are referring to the second road of Luohan Gong, then definitely it is about internal and practical application. The drop also physically strength the bones and massages the internal organs. This is an rather interest aspect of the Luohan Gong. There are quite a few moves that massages various organs. It truely is an amazing form.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by mantis108
Hi Rene,

You are most welcome. Thank you very much for sharing your style's info. :)The internal aspect of your line seems very interesting. Just curious Was there an explanation on how this come to the style? Qiu Chuji is very important figure in the development of Daoism. He had the ears of Genhgis Khan if I am not mistaken.


My teacher once mentioned that in the last chapters of the Taiji Meihua manuel as handed down by earlier generations of his school, the training methods of Taoist internal cultivation are explained. This method was said to have been created by Qiu Chuji (who was indeed treated with utmost courtesy by Genghis Khan) and was part of the teachings of the Quanzhen Religion. I don't know how and when this method was incorporated into the system.

This is one of the charts I mentioned.

[Laviathan]

Here's the second chart.