Lien wan kuen (chain punching):properly used or overused?

[SAAMAG]

I know this has probably been on the forum at some time or another, and probably numerous times. But it's been some time since I've seen anything regarding the basics.

So I was thinking about Lien wan kuen, chain punching. Again, some schools of wing chun use the lien wan kuen as a primary tool, often using it as a retort to just about any attack. Then there are schools that feel the lien wan kuen is overused, and should not be thought of as the pinnacle of skill.

Off the top of my head, one of the benefits to using it are effects of "overwhelming" the opponent and causing him to "freeze" up because his brain is overloaded momentarily.

On the other hand a disadvantage to relying on it would be the ability for an opponent to (possibly) adapt to the overuse of the techniques, and counter. Another is that the technique is limited to the uppergate (to a degree)

So what do you all think?

Advantages to using it, disadvantages?

[mexenergy]

Properly used? When I look at video clips at people using it, whether demo or not, it looks overused. In our group, the chain punch is the most elementary technique in the book. Yeah, it will get you out of sticky situations but that only works against non wc'ners. Against a hi level wc'ner, the chain punch will not work as effectively. I know I would have no problem against it, and most of what I see looks like 1 straight punch, undaunted by the elementary technique, will fluster the chain puncher. He falls into a false sense of security thinking the chain punch will work in any situation. It's the 1st technique learned by newcomers within a month of attending. It's obviously not hi level wc if a beginner can execute. IMO of course.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Van:

You pretty much covered all the chain punching issues in your original post:

"Some schools use the lien wan kuen as a primary tool, often using it as a retort to just about any attack...


TRUE ENOUGH...and you yourself go on to outline why this can lead to trouble.

"Then there are schools that feel the lien wan kuen is overused, and should not be thought of as the pinnacle of skill..."

OTHERS...will sidestep/and or hook around it and clean someone's clock.


"Off the top of my head, one of the benefits to using it are effects of "overwhelming" the opponent and causing him to "freeze" up because his brain is overloaded momentarily. "

VERY TRUE...the element of surprise (especially when the inital opening is there) can overwhelm.

"On the other hand a disadvantage to relying on it would be the ability for an opponent to (possibly) adapt to the overuse of the techniques, and counter. Another is that the technique is limited to the uppergate (to a degree)."

THE LOWER BODY...can be taken out by a skilled takedown artist if the upperbody chain punch attack becomes predictable. Some grappler types are willing to eat a punch or two while doing this - have seen it happen more than once.

"So what do you all think?"

I THINK...it has to be used sparingly.

[YongChun]

We had one guy who with seven months of Wing Chun entered into black belt level Karate competition. He defeated 4 of them with the chain punching technique. The fifth Karate guy who had been watching all this knocked him down with a hook punch.

We tend not to use the chain punch too much other than doing it as part of a warm up exercise. If there are no hands in the way then it's probably the fastest machine gun style attack.

For defense it depends but if the guy is fast, big and strong then evade sideways with something. Against similar sized individuals you can chain punch back, cross jamb them, use Bill sau, Pak the whole works somewhere, kick, use the idea of putting a screwdriver into the blades of a plastic fan or all kinds of other ways. We treat the chain punch the same as a single punch. Don't properly it might be applied when the opponent's defenses are missing or they chose to disengage for a split second.

In seminars I noticed Emin Boztepe use it a lot (which might not reflect on what he would really use in a fight?) but Kenneth Chung never seemed to use it.

My first teacher Patrick Chow said if you were to just train on one thing, then he would recommend to train 500 double punches a day (both fists go out at the same time). There is a strong relationship between doing that and snapping down the long pole. The difference seems to be that with the pole you are also working the bicep muscles to get the pole back up. Maybe double punches or chain punches with free weights is better.

Ray

[SAAMAG]

I've been using the cables at the gym for that. To supplement training the triceps by traditional means (IE. the pulldowns, extensions etc...) I went to the cables and faced away from the stack, using the fabric grips I would simply get into a left or right lead jing ma or bik ma (depending on the arm being worked), weave the cable under the arm, and go through my chung kuen movement. Sometimes through a plyometric method, and sometimes slowly. This really helps people realise that power comes from the ground up when you use heavier weight.

Another method I was using was to use the upper cable pulldown strap and perform the backfist motion with a slight downward action (gwai choi/kuen). Again proper stance is important.

I like to chain punch, but usually I wont do more then three or four and then I would switch to a chin na or takedown, or of course the wu dip jeung or po pai (without the high level drop effect of course...not that good yet).

[couch]

IMHO, chain punching is used to teach rotation along the centreline. Wing Chun has so many beautiful techniques...why use only the chain punch? ;)

[AmanuJRY]

In general, overused (some lineages don't even use it, so....).

Not only a skilled WCer, boxer or grappler could penetrate the chain punch, but any skilled kicking artist could maintain range and shut you down with well placed kicking.

Also, chain punches break the dogma of efficiency. If the hand is returning to punch again, it's not really performing any technique on the way back. I prefer to make (at least try) every action count and therefore favor kwan sau, po pai, and double punching instead of chain punches.

But, there are times..........;)

[stuartm]

Hi,

It makes me wonder when i see the number of videos out there extolling the virtues of LWK as the ultimate fail safe technique. IMHO, WC in some lineages is far too linear and nowhere is this more explicitly seen than LWK.

I would prefer too see it as a useful entry / defensive technique, but a sharp boxer would cover up and hook around your straight line.

Yes folks, we all have to accept that even our beloved wig chun has some limitations ;-)

Stu

[Vajramusti]

Yes folks, we all have to accept that even our beloved wig chun has some limitations ;-).Stuart M
--------------------------------------------------------------

Cant blame wing chun if a practitioner takes a developmental tool
and obsessively converts it into a chain punching tecgnique irresoective of issues of contact, timing and the inrer structural relationship with the opponent. Limitations of possibly poor students of the art.....

[SAAMAG]

Someone has to be teaching these methods to these "poor students".

[Vajramusti]

Vankuen sez:
Not just poor students...
Someone has to be teaching these methods to these "poor students".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure-poor teachers. The style has spread too fast without quality controls.
In a marketing era- prospective students dont search for good teaching.
Better to learn another style well taught than wing chun badly taught.

[Neo]

I would prefer too see it as a useful entry / defensive technique, but a sharp boxer would cover up and hook around your straight line.

If he covers up, then you would need to use circular attacks like the hooking punch, or similarly, if he crouches low, the lifting punch. I agree though, useful tool for entry and once an opening found to pummel the opponent with, but a competent practitioner should be able to adapt to the opponent's defensive actions rather than just pummelling on. Sometimes I find students will punch and not realise what they are punching or where the best target is. In the example I used about the crouching, they will blast off a flurry of chain punches to someone's skull and not realise the danger of the movement. Better to get them into the neck if possible, or utilise a lifting punch or hook punch depending on position of the opponent. And not forgeting the use of downward elbow to the spine.


but any skilled kicking artist could maintain range and shut you down with well placed kicking

And a good WCer could close down the range and shut down the range of a kicker with well placed entry and chain punching!?!



Also, chain punches break the dogma of efficiency. If the hand is returning to punch again, it's not really performing any technique on the way back. I prefer to make (at least try) every action count and therefore favor kwan sau, po pai, and double punching instead of chain punches.

It has to rechamber to continue, I don't see what the problem is with that. And at close range, the backward action is performing a hacking action to keep the opponent's arms down. Plus it is still providing a defensive position when it chambers in line with the punching arm's elbow. And if you attack with double punches, they still need to be rechambered if you wish to fire off another pair.

[SAAMAG]

Here's something else on the defence of chain punching:

I noticed the other day that when showing a technique to a student, I usually tell them to try and hit me a few times (IE lien wan kuen) before I apply it. I can literally use only one hand as a wedge and biu sau, tan, a lateral jut, etc with absolutely no worries of getting hit. So if we as wing chun stylists can learn to do this, what stops other fighters from doing so?

Now Granted a wing chun fighter captures the center of the attack, not necessarily the attacking tool itself (IE not chasing the hands). Taking into account the previously cited example, do you think it would be "more of a challenge" to say defend against a chain of punches from different origins versus our chain punching from the center only?

[Wilson]

"Cant blame wing chun if a practitioner takes a developmental tool and obsessively converts it into a chain punching tecgnique irresoective of issues of contact, timing and the inrer structural relationship with the opponent. "


Hits the nail on the head. Use it as a tool to learn to bring your hands back to your elbows, to stay on center line, to develop your straight punch, etc. I've said before I believe the chain punch is a drill more than a fighting technique. Don't rely on it.....don't rely on anything. Search for the truth behind movements.