Wing Chun vs. Southern Praying Mantis

[toddbringewatt]

Which style if mastered yeilds the most effective self-defense system?

may the force be with you

[Sharky]

(.)(.)

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"What you wan' cry fo? You know that my hammer is heavy and it got kick like tae kwon do, now you gwarn die slow... I'ma show you how to stretch a m0ther***** if you wanna watch tae bo"

[This message was edited by Sihing73 on 09-01-01 at 07:17 AM.]

[Sihing73]

Hello,

This is a question with no definitive answer. Both styles have produced capable practicianers. It would all depend on the person taking the system and their understanding of what each had to offer as well as the quality of instruction available to the person.

Of course, I am prejudiced towards Wing Chun as that is my system of choice ;)

Peace,

Dave

[Scott]

Wing Chun, because Wing Chun was developed by a girl, and girls have boobies, and boobies smash mantis.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Sharky]

exactly

================================================== ==========================

"What you wan' cry fo? You know that my hammer is heavy and it got kick like tae kwon do, now you gwarn die slow... I'ma show you how to stretch a m0ther****er if you wanna watch tae bo"

[chi-kwai]

Our sifu teaches both Wing Chun and Seven Star Praying Mantis. In my experience with the mantii, WC has a strong advantage over mantis at close range, especially when moving to their outside, but mantis is stronger at long range attacks.

They have a very "sticky" way about them, their arms will roll around yours and it is difficult to get through at times, but our trapping hands can allow one to get through this. Double punches (sieung kuen) also provide a bit of frustration to the Bugs.

Mantis on the other hand, has great legs. If you don't get inside quickly, you will get hit hard by kicks. Their arms are quick and don't react the way you are used to when working out with WC people.

In my humble opinion, the two styles compliment and cancel each other out very well. As far as one being more suited for "self-defense," I would not care to answer that. Frankly, I believe that both are equally effective in different manners.

Perhaps some of my classmates would care to pipe in and give their own observations.

--
chi kwai

[OdderMensch]

right and wrong

The 7* Mantis that Sifu teaches is a whole differnt animal than SPM (Southern Praying Mantis)

The SPM people seem to use "jut" motions for everything, the people that went to the last CA tourny got to see a SPM guy whip ass on a WC guy (the SPM guy was solid, no info on the WC guy just he got creamed)

I also saw at the last Taiji Legeacy a WC Sifu judge a Southern Forms Comp that included a SPM form, he looked rather perplexed, the guys look like they are just twiching or something.

But as has been said before "its not the style its the person" Both the Siu and the Student. If you think WC wont work then the best WC sifu in the world cant help you, if you are in love with WC then dont waste a SPM classes time. The best art is the one you will train, master and pass on.

PS Sharky and Scott
How dare you let people in on our secrect "(.)(.) crushs mantis!" aren't you on the Secret WC mailing list(SWCML)? jeez man giving away all our secret techs ;)

[chi-kwai]

Southern Praying Mantis is actually a style called Hakka. The Hakka system came from the north. Here is a quote from a description of the style:

"Chu Fook To, of the Ming imperial court retreated to the sanctuary of the Northern Shaolin monastery and in pursuit the Ching court burned Songshan
Shaolin forcing Chu and the Ming loyalists to flee southward where they settled at Fukien Shaolin with Chu Fook To becoming abbot and changing his
name to "Tung Sim" (anguish) due to his deep anguish and hatred for the Ching's reign of terror and suffering. It was during this time that the Chu family boxing style was nicknamed "Southern Praying Mantis" in order to confuse the style with the Northern Shandong Mantis styles and avoid the persecution of the Ching soldiers."

This style is also known as Chu gar and Chow gar, but there is contention in this, much in the same way that there is contention between lineages of Wing Chun. The SPM style utilizes the Phoenix Eye punch most extensively.

This system, in my humble opinion, is amazing. The style is very dynamic. Short distance attacks are abundant, but it utilizes many long fists typical of Northern styles. In any case, either of these schools, Wing Chun or Southern Praying Mantis(Hakka, Chukka, Chu gar, Chow gar) would be a fine choice, so long as the teacher is skilled.

--
chi kwai

[kungfu cowboy]

This=funny

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Wing Chun, because Wing Chun was developed by a girl, and girls have boobies, and boobies smash mantis. [/quote]

[kungfu cowboy]

:(

[Sharky]

That was *THE* funniest thing i have read in a long time.

================================================== ==========================

"What you wan' cry fo? You know that my hammer is heavy and it got kick like tae kwon do, now you gwarn die slow... I'ma show you how to stretch a m0ther****er if you wanna watch tae bo"

[whippinghand]

Neither.

[Anarcho]

Sharky and Scott are correct.

CanadianBadAss is *definitely* incorrect, and I've seen the pictures to prove it.

[toddbringewatt]

excellent replys so far...

may the force be with you

[Sharky]

where'd his post go?

================================================== ==========================

"What you wan' cry fo? You know that my hammer is heavy and it got kick like tae kwon do, now you gwarn die slow... I'ma show you how to stretch a m0ther****er if you wanna watch tae bo"

[lotus kick]

he who is ready to die, will return home alive. Everything else is just BS

[Hungmei]

The guy who goes by the name "toddbringewatt" is a total waste product loser. He tried the same inflammatory bull**** on the SPM page and got shut down.

This clown is part of a group of 'Trekkie Trolls' who never make a post that contributes anything other than discord.

Fukien, and his electronically created alter ego 'Uncle' 'Still Thinking Follower' are two other kiddies playing at pulling strings.

'Totalbraindeadboy's' question about what system is superior should read you guys onto the fact that he's an absolute idiot who squats to pee and is looking to provoke a dispute.

As for Fukien and his ‘Uncle’ they can’t even cite to their Sifu or lineage since it seems that ‘video tape correspondence students’ have a hard time getting answers from their television screens :). John

[Sihing73]

Hello Hungmei,

It is quite possible that your post was meant with the best of intentions. If so i thank you for your "warning". However, it is really not necessary. On this board all are welcome to discuss the art of Wing Chun and other arts as they correspond to our art. It is not the place to bandy politics nor promote anyones agenda, including my own. I can assure you that the people on this board are capable of dealing with any "trolls".

On a personal note I would appreciate keeping the politics out of this board especially if they don't involve Wing Chun anyhow.

Peace,

Dave

[toddbringewatt]

Hi. My name is Todd Bringewatt. I posted the starter to this topic out of a desire to learn more about SPM and WC and decide which is best for me.

So far I have received nothing but kindness and helpful information from the WC folks here. Thank you.

However, the identical topic starter I placed on the Southern Kung Fu area has created a far different and entirely unintended effect.

Namely, personal character attacks (on me) and insults regarding the integrity of my intentions.

This has come exclusively from two individuals, Bruce Campbell and now quite viciously (as you can see in the above post -- 2 up) from someone using the name Hungmei -- who seems to feel the need to resort to name calling.

You can read these reactionary responses for yourself in the Southern KF area under the topic "Southern Praying Mantis vs. Wing Chun."

Conversely, Steve Richards (SPM teacher) has been more than helpful, providing insightful academic responses which I have appreciated greatly. He is also a Wing Chun practioner in addition to SPM and so, by his example, brings great dignity to your art (WC).

It saddens me to find such knee-jerk reactions and intolerance where I hoped to find elightenment and class.

Thanks Wing Chun people for not letting me down! And thank you to Dave, who wrote the above post asking Hungmei to keep his politics out of this area and defending the principle of open discussion. Well said!

may the force be with you

[Hungmei]

>It is quite possible that your post was meant with the best of intentions. If so i thank you for your "warning".

Not a warning so much as a simple example of what this guy is up to.

>However, it is really not necessary. On this board all are welcome to discuss the art of Wing Chun and other arts as they correspond to our art.

Your board, your choice.

>It is not the place to bandy politics nor promote anyones agenda, including my own. I can assure you that the people on this board are capable of dealing with any "trolls".

Good stuff.

>On a personal note I would appreciate keeping the politics out of this board especially if they don't involve Wing Chun anyhow.

That was my whole point, nothing the people I identified post anything substantive in regard to any MA, WC or otherwise.

>Peace

Peace to you as well Dave. John

[toddbringewatt]

Bruce P. Campbell rules. In my above post I named Mr. Campbell along with Hungmei as one who had defamed me unfairly.

Like a man of true integrity, after personally emailing him, Bruce extended to me his apology. He also made clear the attacks he, his teacher and his Pai have had to endure over the years and I wish to make it know that I now understand his response.

Bruce Campbell is a good and decent man who demonstrates the kind of character that is indicative of the highest levels of martial arts dedication. His pai should be proud to have such a man among them and count themselves lucky to have access to a teacher with such integrity and honor.

Bravo, Bruce!

may the force be with you

[toddbringewatt]

Hungmei has yet to step forward and reclaim his honor.

I hope he is humble enough to take a lesson from Bruce.


Todd Bringewatt

may the force be with you

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I don't mind the discussion but leave the personalities out of this. Having read the thread on the Southern Chinese board you should let this matter between the two of you drop, seems like he already responded to you and the position was clear. Be the better man and let it go. Discuss the art and leave the personal differences at the door.

Peace,

Dave

[toddbringewatt]

Scratch my above post regarding Hungmei. I just jumped over to the Southern Chinese board and read the following:

"Apology to Todd
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since both Steve and Bruce have determined that you are not in fact some Internet surfing Troll I defer to their judgement in this matter and extend an apology for my response to you as well, Todd. John"

Hungmei, thank you. Apology accepted.

Todd Bringewatt


may the force be with you

[toddbringewatt]

Dear Sihing 73,

I appreciate your position. Well taken. My intention here was to settle personal attacks that discussion might return to the issue at hand and that I might safegaurd my reputation on this board.

My efforts to do so seem to have succeeded and I look forward to a return to our academic conversation. Thank you for your tolerance.


Best regards,

Todd Bringewatt:)

may the force be with you

[whippinghand]

Why not eliminate this whole thread altogether???

[HuangKaiVun]

Because we haven't had one reply pertainly directly to the original topic!

Both arts are valuable, and they're not all THAT different when practiced properly.

It would depend on who's teaching, of course. If I had a chance to study with a master like Gin Foon Mark (Southern Mantis) or Hawkins Cheung (Wing Chun), I'd do it.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Friends,

Over on the Southern forum, in between the politics, there are some relevant posts under a thread with the same name as this one.

Kindest Regards,

Steve Richards.

[Anarcho]

You mean the ones explaining how the fundamental techniques of WC will crumble under the impact of a "real" punch? :rolleyes:

[toddbringewatt]

Six posts (4 on page one and 2 on page 2) have answered the original question directly and sincerely and have all been helpful. Thank you to these posters. Cheers, Steve.

Todd :)

may the force be with you

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Anarcho,

That's my experience after nearly thirty years of training in Wing-Chun and after 13 years front line real deal street work in law-enforcement, where I ws obliged to use it and other styles for real.

BTW you forgot to mention that WC probably saved my life on several ocassions, and above all, how I don't claim any objective truth whatsoever for my subjective experiences. Other peoples will be different and I accept that. A reasonable man would expect reciprocity -as in an acknowledgement of the subjectivity of all of our personal empiricism.

Do you have any real experiences to offer, on the relatavism of individual experience basis of course... reciprocally speaking.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Well, not sure if I have any real life experience to offer but here is a bit of my background:
US Army from 1982-1986 after which I worked as a security supervisor and then went into Law Enforcement. My first LE job was at a County Correctional facility where I was a guard, oh excuse me :o Coorectional Officer. After thsi I worked in New York City as a Peace Officer before returning to Philly where I became a Philadelphia Housing Police Officer, got to work in the projects :rolleyes: . I used the Philly Housing as a stepping stone and joined the PA State Police where I worked for four years before I took custody of my son and resigned to pursue other interests.

Anyhow, I can assure you that I had, on more than one occassion, the opportunity to utilize the skills gained in Wing Chun. I am still here so I guess they held up okay :D

Funny thing is the best skill I ever learned was communication. You would be amazed at how many fights can be avoided or situations diffused if you learn to talk to people. Of course having the confidence and abilty to take care of yourself does'nt hurt either.

Peace,

Dave

Wing Chun is not the ultimate martial art, I believe there is no such thing. In a confrontation it is the mind which will determine the outcome. Wing Chun enables me to use my mind and if that don't work punch the crap out of my opponent. Or run like a girl screaming down the street, after all it was "traditionally" developed by a girl :p

[Steven T. Richards]

A great reply. In the hands of someone who knows how to use it WC is as good as any other art no question.

I was wondering if someone might have figured out from my posts (as a whole) that it might simply be ME who hasn't been able to make it work as well as other systems. That's the bootom line after all - of individual and subjective empiricism.

FWIW, my WC line comes initially through Josepth Cheng in the UK (1973) who was a student of Lee-Sing, student of Yip-Man and then in later years from Samuel Kwok student of Yip-Chun and Yip-Ching (other teachers in between times).

No disrespect whatsoever to these fine Masters, it is my failing that it didn't always work for me - although as I said it saved my life in real combat more than once.

Best Regards,

Steve Richards.

[Anarcho]

Fine, if that was all you meant there's no reason for anyone to take offence. But you didn't qualify it, so I'm sure you can see why I misunderstood. Reading over the bulk of your posts again, I notice that you did frequently point out that you were giving your own experience and that it wasn't universally applicable.

However, you said:

"I'll answer in more detail soon, but to answer what I think I missed (briefly) from your post, WC's staples Tan, Bong, Fook, even Pak fail under real mean heavy punching hits. The reason - fundamentally - I believe, is that they engage mainly (not exclusively) but mainlt on the forearms, wrists etc - by which time its often too late. Good hook punches fold Tan Sau, Bong is asking to get your shoulder dislocated or elbow shattered by a mean SOAB grappler who might just be biting your carotid at the same time as he hands you the blooded stub of your arm back."

You can see how I assumed that you were pointing out a perceived inadequacy in the system rather than its application, I think. Maybe people would be less likely to misunderstand your intention if you related your experience in an anecdotal fashion, rather than as what *looks* like sweeping statements, qualified with occasional disclaimers scattered around throughout the post. So, for example, "When I used tan, bong, etc. I found that I was having difficulty coping with powerful punches." This way it's very difficult for the more obtuse among us (myself included) to misunderstand.

;)

Having said that, I'll take you at your word and assume that the error was mine. My apologies for jumping to conclusions. :)

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Anarcho,

Sadly perhaps, an internet forum isn't a book writing forum, so sometimes some extra questions are needed to draw out what is really meant. The Socratic method works best in conversational form rather than as a voluminous monologue (and I say that as a published martial arts author).

I listed techniques which I have found can fail under a determined heavy punching attack. Not a single punch but a whole body dynamic going for it in yer face snarling attack.

WC has other techniques besides those listed as you will well know.

That was what was meant by tweaking some of the basic assumptions about the art and how it might be able to deal or otherwise with determined non-compliant non-style geometry based attacks. A lot of inexperienced people reduce their WC to the bong, tan and fook cycle and forget about the rest of their art.

The students that I mentioned were not 'experts' in WC simply people who had gained some familiarity and confidence in its basics - against a WC compliant structure. Stepping aggressively outside of that caused it to fall apart. It isn't unique to WC it will happen with any 'system'to a greater or lesser degree.

I am more than happy to hear accounts of making it work in real-deal environments, and hopefully, some readers will be reflective enough to utilise my Socratic prompt to illustrate for all of our benefit just how it can work.

[Steven T. Richards]

Anarcho,

As a PS there is no need to appologise you justified your viewpoint and interpretaion soundly.

[CerberusXXL]

I've been in karate for nearly 13 months and I've started Wing Chun after reading the concepts of Wing chun. Wing Chun may not be the ultimate art but by any means it is a very efficient and useful art that can save your life in the streets. I've been practicing Wing chun for two weeks now :)
By the way, I was reading some information about the Southern Praying Mantis style and it looks to have many similarities. Centerline concepts, chi sao, attacking/defending at the same time.

At any rate, the posts that I've read here were very interesting.

[tiger_1]

im thinks wing chun is more of opponent for mantis style and that is more of good opportunity for ur chi sao ( man before me traning karate do before wing chun im thinks that isd good and right road and opportunity for good start for new wingchunger) - just friendly tiger_1 :)

/

[chi-kwai]

Email me directly if you could. I have questions about WC schools in Tampa. address is in my profile. Take out _NOSPAM_.

--
chi kwai

[toddbringewatt]

Thank you for these posts, everyone! Extremely helpful -- very insightful.

Todd :)

may the force be with you

[CerberusXXL]

In Tampa there are two schools of Wing Chun.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am gong to close this thread as it is moving off of topic and seems to have run its course.

For those wishing to discuss Wing Chun in Tampa there is a seperate thread open on that subject. I would ask that you please utilize that thread to discuss the subject of Tampa Wing Chun.

Peace,

Dave