can someone tell me what the pheonix punch is?

[nobody]

how is it performed?

[wingchunalex]

it is a normal punch, but you extend the second knuckle on your pinter finger away from they hand and strike with that. you can either put the thumb on top of your folded pionter finger, or put it in its normal spot.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[dzu]

The thumb should be placed on top to brace the knuckle or else the fist structure will collapse.

Dzu

[sifuironfist]

The Pheonix fist is often called the "Pheonix Eye" fist. It is actually the Pheonix "Eye" fist. The one knuckle is positioned in such a way as to enter the eye socket, while the rest of the surface of the fist strikes the face. This attack can be an extremely effective tool at close range where the Wing Chun fighter should strive to be. :eek:

Americans are so smart, they can put a man on the moon, but they still study Karate!!!

[Patrick Gordon]

Howdy folks,

In the wing chun pheonix eye fist, the thumb is placed on top of the finger because this punch is used for whipping into its target so it needs to be braced, it does not travel in a staight line, otherwise the thumb would be placed behind the finger as you see in other styles.

Patrick Gordon.

[chi-kwai]

In other styles, PE fist is the primary hitting method. Chukka, aka Souther Praying Mantis, uses this punch almost exclusively. It is used against the acupuncture/pressure points. This punch should be used on the soft parts of the body.

here is a webpage with a diagram.

http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/rienbul/phoenix.html

check out the rest of the page too, its an interesting take on wing chun, or as it is called by the author, Weng Shun.

--
chi kwai

[tnwingtsun]

And if I didn't have other things to do I'd go into
more detail.
First of all that link above shows a good way of
messing your hand and fingers up.

You want the first joint of your index finger
locked between the second joint of your middle finger and the first joint of your thumb.

[Steven T. Richards]

Not my Pai as such (although I have studied WC since 1973), looking at that image it shows one of at least four ways of forming the phoenix-Eye fist. Like everything else it depends on training, learning and experience. No doubt such things form the basis of our 'certain' beliefs about what is right or wrong. Given that qualification, the image as I 'saw it' was one of the 'right' ways to do it.

[tnwingtsun]

Right or wrong,granted we were trained
different ways,but can the structure of your
Pheonix Eye Fist stand up to striking a heavy bag of iron shot??

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Friend,

You ask a decent question with no doubt some feeling behind it.

Lee-Yin-Sing Jook-Lum trains the use of the Fung-An-Choi in many ways with various hand formations including a retracted phoenix knuckle fired off a ginger fist as a contact acceleration strike. The wrist can turn in a number of orientations dependant on target and computation of reaction/feel from the opponent.

In 13 years of front-line law enforcement I used it for real against all manner of people, one on one, against group attackers in riots - all sorts of pressure testing situations.

My personal subjective (but empirical) experience has shown me that it works very well in all of its forms - provided the training and experience is there to support it.

The Fung-An Choi can be used against hard bony targets it need not be limited to soft tissue (including muscles where it acts as an armoured peicing shot - the harder the muscle the better the effect).

The biggest problem that I've encoutered with the use of Fung-An Phoenix Eye hist is against padded opponents liek enraged doormen for instance. the padding dissipats the force liek a bullet proof vest. Against such targets broad based power employing simple newtonian mechanics works efficiently.

Control points on the body and limbs do not need to be penetrated to be engaged effectively. the right kind of applied area force is good enough.

It's probably a cliche but I've always found hitting people to be a better predictor of effect than a punch bag.

Kindest Regards,

steve Richards.

[tnwingtsun]

You made some great points and I stand corrected
in so far as saying there is just one way,the structure I described the knuckle is locked in
but the strike is relaxed with whipping motion,or it can be used as a drilling action.
The motion of the wrist gives it good seeking power.
The end result is likened to an AP round,as far as the bag is concerned,when I go to the range
and shoot AP ammo that punches through steel
plates,confidence is high that the ammo I'm using can defeat most body armour and thin skined armored vehicles.
Having worked in law enforcement myself where
pain complinence is sometimes the rule as opposed
to creating internal damage the Pheonix Eye
can be a great tool if used properly. ;)

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Comrade!

You've obviously got a deep understanding of Fung-An-Choi. Yes it is indeed very versatile, and like you say gives a lot of confidence. Where did you get your Phoenix training was it in Wing-Chun?

Best Regards Friend, it's nice to talk to someone who has 'walked the talk' in the real pavement arena.

Steve.