Chi Sao applications Video [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Vajramusti

11-15-2004, 02:24 PM

Comments on Mortal's post:

I guess what I mean is the arms and body seemed disconnected.

(("Seemed"/ How so? Eye of the beholder.))

Like the body would stop and the arms would swing.
((I dont know which movement you are referring to. By the time
the arm moves...the body is already into it.))

Instead feet up through body to the arms.

((???Chain of power? Sure-its there))

((Beginners make many visible moves. Experienced folks make smaller chum kiu motions))

The techs are what they are. It's wing chun. I 'm not critiquing that.

Just the power generation.

((In chi sao and applications you are demonstrating control-if you control yourself and the other person-you can deliver the power
you want.
Ina demo- you dont hurt your partner))

With all due respect a sifu should have that mastered as well.
((Ed is pretty good at what he does. The demo was at a Chicago tournament gathering and involved Ed and his colleague demoing... not Master Fong---though there are master Fong clips on the site as well))

This is going to sound like I have a big ego. I am way better then these guys and I'm not even thinking about being an instructor of wing chun. Never mind a Sifu.

((Not ego- but possiblya degree of ignorance))

I am not trying to flame anybody or put them down. Just being completely honest based on my experiance.

((Honesty and good perception are not the same thing))

mortal

11-15-2004, 02:34 PM

Just because we disagree doesn't make me ignorant. I am allowed to have and share my opinion.

I train in the same type of Wingchun. So I know what I'm critiquing. If you can't handle it check your own ego and ask why. I was polite the whole time.

mortal

11-15-2004, 02:36 PM

Master Fong is a true master. I don't think the other guy should use that title.

You think he isn't stiff? Who is the ignorant one here?

black and blue

11-15-2004, 02:37 PM

I think the point about body connection was a valid one, and I'd like to see less of the super-quick attacks which, at the point of contact are a little too flicky... but its a demo and demos never have everything you want to see.

I quite like some of the other clips on the site - I remember seeing some in the past of Augustine Fong, and liked them alot.

Also, the clip's title was Chi Sau Applications, which was a little bit misleading.

But I respect anyone who puts up some clips in a public forum - there will always be people like me who critique it.

Joy, if you're reading, I don't think you responded to the question I asked about whether you'd be able to put up some video footage of your Chi Sau and how it offers some of what sparring offers - there is no way at all I can make the seminar you spoke of (just too far to fly), but I'd like to see in action some of the things you have discussed.

Vajramusti

11-15-2004, 02:47 PM

Mortal- of course you have a right to an opinion. I did not call you ignorant- I referred to a possible degree of ignorance about what is going on in the video... and that is a relatively civil expression of differences in perception....particularly since I dont know you and many on the list like yourself use an anonymous label and have an uninformative profile which makes serious discussions on a net list difficult..

There are different levels of experience and different POV's in wing chun. Knowing who is talking to whom and at what level can make conversing easier.

mortal

11-15-2004, 02:54 PM

Agreed

My name is Anthony Arrigo. I train at Grados Wingchun in New York City fgor years. I have posted on here for much of that time. Just not as often as others. I also train under 3 of the local monks in Shaolin for the last 6 years.

There you have it.

mortal

11-15-2004, 03:04 PM

Sifu Fong is much better then him. I don't think sifu levels should vary. Either you are fluid, smooth, clean, and powerful or your not. Either your a master or your not. If he was a master Sifu Fong would not be way better then him. He seems more like a senoir instructor to me.

His body is clearly not moving as one unit. He is to focused on the techs. Multiple chops are good, but not without power.

Also his chi sau was sloppy.

I'm sure his intentions are good but he needs to work on that aspect.

I am not good at describing it but he is stiff. I guess either you are at a level of understanding where you see it or you are not.

SAAMAG

11-15-2004, 03:35 PM

Anthony you train with grados?! I saw that crazy music video of his. Talk about self promotion! I like that website though. He has some good videos as well. Are you guys of the WSL lineage?

Your training method and mine (based on what I see in the videos) are a lot alike. I however learned wing chun from my step brother who learned in hawaii years ago. (Under Robert Yeung if Im not mistaken). I stopped training with him back before 2000. He doesnt teach/train any longer I have not finished wing chun as of yet and am currently in limbo as to what lineage I will choose to finish my training. But I've been practicing what I do know since I was in my teens. Im 27 right now. So although I don't have the entire system in hand...I've got about a little more then half I suppose. SLT, CK, and the dummy form. No weapons or BG set. The only places in town here are LT under Will Parker (his personality could use a major overhaul but rumor has it he is decent) and then there is a new school here from Emin Boztepe's new system EBMAS. The sifu's are unknown's and I havent met with them yet. Personally I think both of their systems use the chain punch waaaaaaay too much, and it seems that a lot of the emphasis is on strength, and the techniques look very sloppy. But alas...I've not much choice. I like Fong's system very very much and would choose that if geographically possible. Another lineage I feel is right on the money is Gary Lam's, which I believe to be WSL. I would choose those as the better wing chun lineages in my opinion.

As far as the vid is concerned I can see what you're saying as well...but if Fong endorses Ed, then Ed has the skills to back up anything he does whether that particular video shows it or not. Like I said, I've seen him do some good stuff, and his knowledge of the art is superb. Also remember, Fong is a master of wing chun, and Ed is a sifu under his lineage.

mortal

11-15-2004, 03:56 PM

I am not a big fan of lineages or chain punching. lol

I think what makes Sifu Grados unique is that he has actually used his wingchun. On a daily basis at times.
Many of these masters are great but never use it. They don't live that type of life style. Claiming to be above it and all.

I think that lack of experiance leads to games of tag. All speed, some tech, no power.

My shaolin training influences my perception of wing chun. In a unique way. Many wingchunners forget about power from the ground. That pivot. Grados certainly has it. His power is incredible. He let me hold a bag while he did short chain punches. My chest still hurts.

Matrix

11-15-2004, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by mortal
Just because we disagree doesn't make me ignorant. I am allowed to have and share my opinion. Anthony,
Your opinion is of course allowed, and in fact very welcome. I think there's a lot of truth in your observations.

Vajramusti

11-15-2004, 05:07 PM

mortal sez:

Master Fong is a true master. I don't think the other guy should use that title.

((Title? Rank? This isnt karate. Ed is sifu to his students-not to you.
Similarly your sifu is not ed's sifu. Similarlya master of Baliol college is a master to his students- not necessarily a master of Old Greek. Different meanings of terms.))

You think he isn't stiff?
((Stiffness is comparative and is also activity specific...stiffness compared to whom?))

Who is the ignorant one here?

((Again - ignorant (as above-"the ignorant one". Ignorance involves a continuum,,,,and in different degrees welcome to the common continuum. I understand who your sifu is. He has boxed before
and has fairly fast hands. That does not automatically involve
wing chun motions. He tooka couple of Fong seminars but is bascally on his own promotion. Good luck to him and yourself))

black and blue
Bone bruised every class

((Happens to a hsing I rudapest in Budapest))

I think the point about body connection was a valid one,

(((((The hsing I novice;s armchair POV!!))

and I'd like to see less of the super-quick attacks which, at the point of contact are a little too flicky... but its a demo and demos never have everything you want to see.

((Just a demo...)))

I quite like some of the other clips on the site - I remember seeing some in the past of Augustine Fong, and liked them alot.

Also, the clip's title was Chi Sau Applications, which was a little bit misleading.

((A label is a label...a rose is a rose is a rose))

But I respect anyone who puts up some clips in a public forum - there will always be people like me who critique it.

((B&B-comes out of the blue with CMA goulash with paprika
and possibly pop corn))

Joy, if you're reading, I don't think you responded to the question I asked about whether you'd be able to put up some video footage of your Chi Sau and how it offers some of what sparring offers - there is no way at all I can make the seminar you spoke of (just too far to fly), but I'd like to see in action some of the things you have discussed.

((Not making it to the seminar. The loss is yours unfortunately.
Master Fong some years ago gave a seminar somwhere in England.
Back to sparring- I am no stranger to sparring. Fun- But not the best way to understand and progress in the details of the art.
Back to chi sao---I dont have the slightest idea on how to put footage on the net.
But as I repeatedlydly mention chi sao is rich in its variety. Of course the fundamentaks are there in single, double and lop sa0.
But it progreses into all sorts of combinations of control, attacks and defenses- with varying timing and varying footwork-plus lut sao(not WT lat sao)- with its gap closing and creating without going bouncy bounce.
But chi sao isnt fighting and neither is sparring.
Lots of things happen in kwoons which are outside of the materials in net videos))

Knifefighter

11-15-2004, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Vajramusti
((Just a demo...))) And that's the problem... the only wing chun that is actually demonstrated seems to be the form of demos or practice where it is "OK" to be flicky because it's "just a demo". There doesn't seem to be any actual evidence of anyone actually using it to finish against another halfway skilled opponent. The closest I have ever seen anyone really using WC in this respect was Vitor Belfort's "straight blast" against Silva.

edward

11-15-2004, 08:16 PM

There's a difference between stepping back passively or actively. If you watch the 1st part of the video, where Ken randomly did acts, my step back was not initiated by me, but depending on the amount of force that was given. I adjusted to it with bracing footwork. Now keep in mind this is a demonstration. In actual real application, I would never let the motion come in, once Ken was in range I would move right in and jam the motion. But jamming motions in demostrations are boring and dont allow flow of motions, which is not good eye candy for the public

edward

11-15-2004, 08:37 PM

If you've ever done a demo, then you have to understand what people are capable of understanding. And, from my experience the general public and even regular practioners of martial arts have no understanding of Wing Chun demonstrations. When you do demonstrations you have to bend rules that you necessarily wouldn't do in Wing Chun. Otherwise things will look boring and plain.

A properly displayed wing chun punch, has nothing visually appealing to it. Because the power is not left in the arm, but transfered over to the opponent. But in a demo, you need to show off power as well as slowing down motions to allow audience members to see what you've done.

I could always do a demonstration where I just go to every single audience member and just one inch punch them for real... or I could tell you of the countless demosntrations done that night that were slow and boring tai chi forms that lasted for about 5 minutes each. Frankly I feel its quite boring to do forms for demonstration, unless they are wu shu forms that have allot of action and jumping in the forms. Do you think people would've prefered me doing Siu Lim Tao for 20 minutes?

Anyway, these are just my thoughts

Knifefighter

11-15-2004, 08:47 PM

My complaint isn't about demos, per se. It is about the fact that everything WC-related that can be seen is all demos and drills. Where is the evidence of real fighting being done using WC?

edward

11-15-2004, 09:34 PM

My complaint isn't about demos, per se. It is about the fact that everything WC-related that can be seen is all demos and drills. Where is the evidence of real fighting being done using WC?

Then your talking about 2 different things... You see wing chun applied in a real fight.. your talking about 1 or 2 attacks, and then the fight is over. Done correctly, you really won't see much of anything. A demonstration helps display some of the skill developed from the wing chun training. Thus, your talking about 2 different things.

Ultimatewingchun

11-15-2004, 09:57 PM

Just watched the video.

Lame.

No insult intended - don't know who these people are...

but in all honesty - it was lame.

See mortal's point about no power - but there's a lot more to the "problems" involved with this than just a power failure. It's just one more example of how chi sao - of and by itself - doesn't prove anything. (Aside from the technical flaws and the limited amount of technique within the chi sao and the other moves contained within the demo displayed here).

Chi sao is a very limited training device...of and by itself.

Can't wait for the day when all-wing chun fighting tournaments (hard contact sparring with very thin gloves, headgear, etc.) start to pop up around the country...and other countries, for that matter.

SAAMAG

11-15-2004, 10:39 PM

I see your point Ed. Jong pretty much explained it another way as well. In a demonstration, you're going for mass appeal to the general public, wherein most have ADD and will only pay attention for a small period of time and to only things that are visually appealing.

YongChun

11-16-2004, 12:17 AM

Bruce Lee's movie stuff was also very different from his real fighting stuff. In one scene he re did the scene 200 times before he was happy with the look of it.

Ray

black and blue

11-16-2004, 02:01 AM

Joy says: "The hsing I novice;s armchair POV!!"

To the first part, yes - truly am a XingYi novice. To the second? Like the tag says, bone-bruised :) .... nothing armchair about it. Chairs are comfortable and the classes are not, though like with chairs I spend a fair amount of time on my a.rse.

"B&B-comes out of the blue with CMA goulash with paprika and possibly pop corn"

No goulash at present as there's a paprika ban (nasty fungus found in imported paprika from South America), so we are all suffering and yearning for the red stuff!

Popcorn? If there's anything that truly annoys me regarding your posts Joy, its the fact you view all comment that differs from your own to be either

a) Absolutely wrong
b) The voice of inexperience

No popcorn munching here as my continued interest in WCK is the result of my continued sparring against it. And each time I do so the experience grows and, I hope, I learn something new. You don't, in short, need 30-odd years in the art to be able to see if someone is connected and notice if what they are doing will offer good power delivery :rolleyes:

Regaring the seminar, yes - it is a shame as I've yet to meet someone good from your line (there was a guy in the UK who I met but he has, in the past year or so, removed any Fong banners etc from his site - so perhaps he was not accredited).

Perhaps one of your students has a camcorder and can help you with getting some material on the net? Despite your popcorn comments, I WOULD like to SEE what you're talking about in your description of Chi Sau. From Ed's video I see nothing in it that relates to the things you talk about, but you've studied longer under Augustine Fong... so who knows.

Vajramusti

11-16-2004, 06:49 AM

Comments on B and B's post:

Joy says: "The hsing I novice;s armchair POV!!"

To the first part, yes - truly am a XingYi novice. To the second? Like the tag says, bone-bruised .... nothing armchair about it.
((The arm chair comment referred to your current WC POV))

"B&B-comes out of the blue with CMA goulash with paprika and possibly pop corn"

No goulash at present as there's a paprika ban (nasty fungus found in imported paprika from South America), so we are all suffering and yearning for the red stuff!
((Sorry to hear that))

Popcorn? If there's anything that truly annoys me regarding your posts Joy, its the fact you view all comment that differs from your own to be either

a) Absolutely wrong
b) The voice of inexperience

((I dont control your annoyance. AndI am not running for election. ""All comments that differs"...
not true. I spent a professional lifetime weighing, comparing and contrasting entirely different ideas. But partly correct in that in any field all opinions are not coequal. The right to an opinion is
sacred and equal- but one can point out it's wrong if it is. I always read carefully(listening) before commenting. You would be surprised how many opinions of mine I have changed in wing chun and other subjects after listening carefully. I hunt for the essence of a subect rather than clinging to "my" opinions.

But levels of knowledge, differences in POV, dogma, prejudice can
cloud opinions and observation.
In mortal's case my initial hunch proved correct- he was looking at the view via standards of "athleticism".His wing chun training is froma sifu who is quite athletic and an ex boxer. His wing chun foundations are not that strong- though athletic ability and conditioning is nothing to sniff at- but not enough to develop in the art.
Ed's video was justa very short demo clip on variations from rolling- not at full speed or power but showing line openings and closing. Take it out fo the narrow brief demo context-you have a different conversation.))

You don't, in short, need 30-odd years in the art to be able to see if someone is connected and notice if what they are doing will offer good power delivery

((No you dont. But the reverse of that proposition is not necessarily true either.Good power delivery in wing chun is not very camera friendly.))

Regaring the seminar, yes - it is a shame as I've yet to meet someone good from your line (there was a guy in the UK who I met but he has, in the past year or so, removed any Fong banners etc from his site - so perhaps he was not accredited).

((I dont speak for Master Fong. He speaks for himself. His list of certified and recognized students is on his website.He does not open chainstores.The person you refer to is not on it. Neither is Grados nor Williams.
Master Fong's main work is at his headquarters in Tucson and many things that happen there are not on videos or in books and manuals. He has kept on developing lots of applications of wing chun based ona good undertstanding of wing chun principles. He encourages individuality based on fundamentals as his sifu and sigung did... each with considerable time spent learning first. Best way to find out what he does is to come to Tucson for one of the seminars.)).

Perhaps one of your students has a camcorder and can help you with getting some material on the net? Despite your popcorn comments, I WOULD like to SEE what you're talking about in your description of Chi Sau.

(I am not much interested in a media presence except for a basic website. Wing chun is not my rice bowl- but my love.Good wing chun really should be seen and felt first hand. Fairly serious obligations prevent me from visiting Europe- havent been there in decades. Perhaps when my obligations lighten and we meet in travels- i will be happy to show you some of the things that you refer to. Nota general invitation to all- but given your curiosity- if you pass thru Phoenix - I will be happy to spend qualitywing chun time.

Things like closing the gap, fighting other stylists, actual self defence capacity enhancement are all serious subjects---but boxing type of sparring is far from the only method of learning wing chun. You can always learn from various experiences---but for it to be wing chun- one has to do wing chun-rather than making it up.
I do stay on the list- partly for fun but more importantly to geta sense of other approaches to wing chun and I learn whenever I can. I am compulsive about learning more about the art every day even though much of the art is being fragmented..Not proofread- gotta run taxi for someone in need of transportation.))
__________________

black and blue

11-16-2004, 07:03 AM

"Fairly serious obligations prevent me from visiting Europe- havent been there in decades. Perhaps when my obligations lighten and we meet in travels- i will be happy to show you some of the things that you refer to. Nota general invitation to all- but given your curiosity- if you pass thru Phoenix - I will be happy to spend qualitywing chun time."

Well, that is a kind offer for sure. Thank you. If ever there is a chance of my being out your way I will email before hand and, yes, it would be good to meet and play through some of these ideas. Don't know if you have any knowledge of XingYi, but feel free to tear mine apart when you see it.

Regarding Europe, I return the offer. If ever you are coming out this way (Hungary), email me and we can meet up. I know a variety of MA folk here (WCK, Mantis, Chen Taiji, Thai boxing etc etc) if you want to meet others, and hey, I can even take you to Hungary's Istvan "KoKo" Kovacs' (the boxer) restaurant. Perhaps meet the chap.

A shame about the lack of video options - as it would at least be a quick viewing option.

Vajramusti

11-16-2004, 07:27 AM

Reply to B and B:

Well, that is a kind offer for sure. Thank you. If ever there is a chance of my being out your way I will email before hand and, yes, it would be good to meet and play through some of these ideas.

((Good))

Don't know if you have any knowledge of XingYi, but feel free to tear mine apart when you see it.

((I have a broad but serious interest in TCMA- so I have a non practitioners view from the outside.))

Regarding Europe, I return the offer. If ever you are coming out this way (Hungary), email me and we can meet up.

((One guy from Romania wanted me to certify him sight unseen
but I dont do that kind of thing. Have not been to Hungary- maybe some day))

I know a variety of MA folk here (WCK, Mantis, Chen Taiji, Thai boxing etc etc) if you want to meet others, and hey, I can even take you to Hungary's Istvan "KoKo" Kovacs' (the boxer) restaurant. Perhaps meet the chap.

(((Thanks-I have some exposure to really top flight Chen. Have travelled to Bangkok to see muat thai at its source. Respect southern mantis- afriend of mine is top flight in southern mantis.
The US often draws the best in different fields though some may escape the attention they deserve. good wishes))

black and blue

11-16-2004, 07:34 AM

:) I lived in Bangkok for a year and a half after finishing Uni... amazing place. I too watched a lot of Thai boxing and through a friend visited some very small schools to see how they trained. Brutal stuff.

Enjoyed seeing it, but hated seeing some of the older chaps who hungout there - badly hobbling around. There legs had taken too much punishment over the years.

Vajramusti

11-16-2004, 07:40 AM

B and B:

Enjoyed seeing it, but hated seeing some of the older chaps who hungout there - badly hobbling around. There legs had taken too much punishment over the years.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Exactly- seen the same))

Knifefighter

11-16-2004, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by edward
You see wing chun applied in a real fight.. your talking about 1 or 2 attacks, and then the fight is over. Done correctly, you really won't see much of anything. With all the WC practitioners around, you would think there might be a couple of videos floating around of a WC practitioner putting down a skilled opponenent with these "one or two attacks".

mortal

11-16-2004, 10:17 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by edward
You see wing chun applied in a real fight.. your talking about 1 or 2 attacks, and then the fight is over. Done correctly, you really won't see much of anything.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With all the WC practitioners around, you would think there might be a couple of videos floating around of a WC practitioner putting down a skilled opponenent with these "one or two attacks".

He doesn't speak for all of us. I know one or two punches doesn't put anyone down. I punch myself in the head a couple of times before a fight just to get psyched. Again this seams to show a lack of true fighting experiance. All theory.

Knifefighter

11-16-2004, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by mortal
He doesn't speak for all of us. I know one or two punches doesn't put anyone down. I punch myself in the head a couple of times before a fight just to get psyched. Again this seams to show a lack of true fighting experiance. All theory. OK, but where is the evidence of a WC fighter using WC to put down a skilled opponent with any number of punches?

mortal

11-16-2004, 10:26 AM

I know Graods has put down many fighters. I put down a couple. The evidance is in the lawsuits. lolo Yes I have been arrested for it.

Knifefighter

11-16-2004, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by mortal
I know Graods has put down many fighters. I put down a couple. The evidance is in the lawsuits. lolo Yes I have been arrested for it. That's not evidence of WC being used against a skilled figher. That's heresay.

old jong

11-16-2004, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
That's not evidence of WC being used against a skilled figher. That's heresay.

Are you talking about those leg hugging contests?...:rolleyes: That's "heresy"!...;)

YongChun

11-16-2004, 12:14 PM

I think if someone complains about someone's video then the best is a counter video to show how it should be done. No threats. In the boxing or grappling world we can judge when we see the fights.

It's sometimes hard to judge from a demo video. When I saw Emin Boztepe for real, he looked much better than on his videos in my opinion. On his videos he seems to almost do a wild flurry of elbows and chain punches combined with a quick charge in against people much smaller than himself. But at a seminar here he didn't do that and he applied his stuff against more decent sized opponents although still with less skill (a lot less years training).

From a non-TWC perspective when we saw William Cheung on his first two commercial videos, it looked very bad to everyone. Someone would throw a punch and he would do :

1. an inside right Pak sau
2. followed by an outside left Pak sau
3. followed by a right Bill sau
4. followed by a right Lap sau
5. followed by a left Pak sau combined with a punch

Five movements while the guy was standing there with his single punch.

The non-TWC Wing Chun solution would have been a one movement punch maybe combined with a turn but maybe not depending on the situation.

Mind you not everything looked bad but this kind of thing did. It went against the grain of efficiency. At the same time William Cheung produced a video to expose himself to the public but my lineage at that time didn't produce anything for someone else to criticize.

However I know that William Cheung was a good fighter, Bruce Lee respected him and so did Wong Shun Leung. He wasn't scared of other Yip Man students. Furthermore he generated some good students with good fighting records in tournament competition.

So what I saw on the video and what I know from results achieved didn't match. Furthermore the infamous Boztepe and Cheung fight that was filmed didn't do any favor to either of them. There was little Wing Chun there.

Of course all these things have reasons but just judging from the video only it looked pretty bad.

So the real test would be some kind of real sporting match over a series of encounters and against different skilled people. Now it's too late for Emin and William to be doing that because they are past their fighting prime but their students can show the world who has got what. If they are indeed good teachers, then they should produce some quality students (better than themselves?) providing they teach enough to have a large enough base to pick from.

I think most Wing Chun videos have gotten bad reviews. Unfortunately the only other thing Wing Chun people have is there stories which people from other lineages don't tend to believe or consider the stories to be maybe just a lucky 'one-of' event.

Ray

sihing

11-16-2004, 12:27 PM

When I first purchased the "Wing Chun Way" videos with William Cheung in them I had nothing to compare them to but now when I watch them they are pretty bad. To say the least they are basic tapes and do not represent the WC he know's. Some of his other tapes are much better. In the WC Way tapes he looks slow and deliberate, but after seeing the man in person and other tapes he is not like that in reality, so it must of been the way that they filmed it that made it looks so bad. The director of Enter the Dragon directed those tapes.

The video profiled in this thread is good, I've seen better, but it wasn't terrible that's for sure. It's just a demo and should be looked at that way. I'm sure if you saw a video of their testings/gradings then you would probably see more quality and intensity in the WC they teach and practice.

James

YongChun

11-16-2004, 12:37 PM

Nevertheless, I still enjoy watching anyone's video no matter what they do. I have learned to suspend judgement since I have met good fighters from all styles and lineages. William's videos were very clear and instructional.

I hate when famous sifus put out videos and then later students of that lineage say that wasn't the real stuff or mistakes were purposely put in so that others can't steal the secrets. I guess it's a marketing thing.

Ray

Ultimatewingchun

11-16-2004, 12:57 PM

The best William Cheung footage has been taped at seminars and privates - of which there are three types:

1) Public seminars
2) Private instructor's seminars
3) Private lessons

Some of the stuff at these seminars, especially #2 (and of course #3)...

make the "Wing Chun Way" and other commercial tapes look like grammar school stuff by comparision. In public, GM Cheung has always emphasized the basic TWC strategies and techniques- and especially the material that DIFFERS from other WC systems. So there's a significant amount of marketing going on within those tape..."This is the TWC difference", etc.

Now those diffferences are also clearly present in the private and semi-private stuff - but are explained and demonstrated in MUCH greater detail; along with things that aren't much different than other WC (I'm talking in generalities now...his skill level at performing even basic "conventional" WC moves is off the charts).

Bottom line:

If you really want to see what William Cheung's stuff is about you need to go beyond the commercial tapes, and even the public seminars - and go behind closed doors with him...and/or with certain high level TWC people.

If/when my computer skills get better - I'll post some clips of GM Cheung doing some things you'll never see on a commercial tape.

sihing

11-16-2004, 01:04 PM

I agree that if you really want to learn something you have to learn it from the man himself or someone trained by the man. Why should one give it all away for $40 a tape. Only basic concepts and principals should be displayed on Instructional material, IMO.

Victor,
Is the video The Story of GM William Cheung any good? Is there allot of footage of him training or is it all interview stuff?
Also, is the stuff Phil put up on that website in the UK, some seminar material, is that what you are talking about? www.wck-media.co.uk/

James

YongChun

11-16-2004, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

If/when my computer skills get better - I'll post some clips of GM Cheung doing some things you'll never see on a commercial tape.

I look forward to that. I did like his demo that he did on the waterfront with one of his top(?) instructors.

Ray

sihing

11-16-2004, 03:31 PM

Yes, from the Tao of Wing Chun tapes, I got the first one I believe, with the Mok Jong form and applications with the other hands forms also. Its more of a Demo tape, as there isn't any instruction/talking per say on the tape.

James

russellsherry

11-16-2004, 04:56 PM

hi motal i like a person who defends his kwoon, buy the way , i vist your sifu"S webpage quit often, i think his wing chun is very good his clips are among the best i ve seen and said so to my sifu randy willaiams what i like is most of gradros sifu techniques, are very simple that always makes a good fighter peace russellsherry

YongChun

11-16-2004, 05:17 PM

Hi Mortal,

What is a good video to get which shows off your sifu the best?

Ray

Knifefighter

11-16-2004, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Vajramusti
((Why would a person videotape a real fight in this society?.
Sporting events yes-non sporting events area a different thing-
with possible civil and legal implications)) Can you say Emin B. vs. William C? That was videotaped...and that seems to be the only evidence of "skilled" WC guys actually trying to use WC to fight.

Sporting event, challenge match, real fight... you would think if WC really was the ****, there would be some video of it floating around of it somewhere.

mortal

11-17-2004, 10:30 AM

russellsherry

Thanks for the support! I am not familiar with Randy. Are you guys near New York?

Yong chun

All his videos are pretty good. He really goes out of his way to explain things. I don't own any nor have I seen them all. What I mean is I wouldn't be the best judge of what vid is best.
I like the Hardcore street combat vid.

Knifefighter

I don't think there is anything I could say to convince you of Wing chuns combat effectiveness. I understand why your a nonbeleiver. Just look at all the half trained wingchun "sifu's" out there playing tag makes me doubt the art as well. But when I met Grados after a friend had to drag me there I was more than impressed. My advice to you is come to NewYork and watch a class. It will be well worth the trip. They guys that train there are as cool as they come and highly skilled. I guess it depends how far you want to go in your quest to find real wingchun. If you just want to stay a doubting tom on the internet than what can I say? Hope to meet you in New York one day. If I ever come out your way I'll look you up.
You keep mentioning skilled fighters. They come into our school often. Always black belts in this or that. The outcome is always the same. They get schooled and join.

Knifefighter

11-17-2004, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by mortal
They come into our school often. Always black belts in this or that. The outcome is always the same. They get schooled and join. Really? Can you name a single BJJ blackbelt or pro MMA fighter that came into your gym, got schooled and then joined?

Vajramusti

11-17-2004, 11:26 AM

Cooments on Knifefighter's post:

Can you say Emin B. vs. William C? That was videotaped...and that seems to be the only evidence of "skilled" WC guys actually trying to use WC to fight.

((C'mon. Nonsense. That hurts -it's a poor representation of wing chun by both parties. Ditto for the return match between the families with subs in NY))

Sporting event, challenge match, real fight... you would think if WC really was the ****, there would be some video of it floating around of it somewhere.

((I am sure that there are some. Again, some wc folks I know who have been in real fights didnt stage them for filming..

WC was used some in HK tong wars- but I dont know whether Jiu Van's folks have any clips. Jason Lau may have some clips of himself or others.

The now ubiquitous video culture was non existent among some earlier wc folks.

Tam of Macao has still photos- I dont know whether he has film of his matches with Thais.
Some sporting events(as opposed to real fighting) films are around in scattered fashion. I have seen some- but I am not mucha of film/video collector.

WSL's working the bjd againsta fencer may be on film somewhere.

Many full contact tournaments did not film every event in the past.
Jeff Bolt organizes an annual kung fu tournamnet. Lately it has been in Florida. In the mid and late eightees they were in Houston. In one of them before chi sao sporting rules were made more specific- there was a final match between Danny Chan of Fong's wing chun and Leung Ting's then available best-it was quite an affair and much more intense than matches since then which has more rules and pushing. I dont know whether Jeff Bolt has any film of that match.

Ultimately, whether to practice in this style or that is a personal decision and the proof is in one's own pudding and the training and self confidence that one brings to bear in making the pudding.

So if someone does not have faith in wing chun- its their problem.

And given the diversity- folks wouldnt agrre as to who can represent wing chun. ( So I urge people who do not have fath in wing chun- JUMP SHIP!!))

Knifefighter- given your name: Top Gurkha warriors are amazingly skillfull with their kukhri's. I have seen some of their actions in brutal civil strife. But films and videos of Gurkhas dodging a Japanese (in Burma) pr german bayonet in North Africa and chopping a head off- I dont know of any films of such real events - but I know some people who actually did such deeds.. and have faith in their abilities.

Not all of reality is on film.

PS. Sugar Ray Robinson perhaps the greatest western boxer ever---we have his films asa a middleweight when he was already just past his prime. We have very few films of him as a rising welterweight when he was at his best.

mortal

11-17-2004, 11:38 AM

I find it funny the guy has to be a mixed martial arts or Brazilian jujitsu black belt. lo Are those the only guys that count as skilled fighters to you? Both things you mentioned are sports.

The answer is I don't know.
It is hard for me to ask every guy I train with their history. Not that I know of.

The wingchun I train is for the street. True it could be modified for sport. But I don't care about sport. I guess in the end I know the wing chun I train is effective for the real thing and that is all that counts to me.

Also you need to ask yourself why you train?
I was always a good fighter. I started with shaolin more for self expression and phsical fitness. But I ended up learning much more.

Knifefighter

11-17-2004, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Vajramusti
((C'mon. Nonsense. That hurts -it's a poor representation of wing chun by both parties.)) Of course it hurts. I should. It was a clash of two of the supposed best that WC has to offer. Pretty much an embarrasment in terms of WC fighting ability. Don't you think with that kind of PR disaster, at least one of them would have set up some other types of challenge matches to demonstrate that the lack of WC fighting skills displayed in that fray was just a fluke?

Originally posted by Vajramusti
PS. Sugar Ray Robinson perhaps the greatest western boxer ever---we have his films asa a middleweight when he was already just past his prime. We have very few films of him as a rising welterweight when he was at his best. But he regualarly tested his skills in front of thousands of people, even when he wasn't filmed. There were non-partisan newspaper and radio reporters to verify his skill. It seems that in the TMA world, the only verification of real fighting skill seems to be stories told from teachers to students or from one student to the next.

old jong

11-17-2004, 12:08 PM

"The Sportfighter Troll. Sportfighter Trolls are tough. Ask them, and they'll tell you. Don't ask them, and they'll still tell you. Sportfighters have memorized every UFC, MMA match, and NHB bout ever televised. They have extensive video libraries constituting the proof that their "stuff works." Sportfighter Trolls believe anyone who does not engage in their training methodology is a limp-wristed pansy who'll probably wet himself the first time a mugger throws a punch at him. Such trolls should not, however, be confused with anyone and everyone who engages in some form of martial sport. To be a Sportfighter Troll requires a high degree (in equal measures) of aggression, immaturity, and hostility.

Sportfighter Trolls become extremely irate when told that sports are not self-defense and are prone to waving their *****es madly about (one hopes only metaphorically), demanding the respect they feel they've been denied. They are fond of issuing ring challenges and generally suffer from a great deal of insecurity about their masculinity, which is tied directly to the sports in which they engage. Sportfighter Trolls are exclusively male and, while fond of speaking of women as sexual objects, are not known for their prowess in the dating arena."

Knifefighter

11-17-2004, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by mortal
I find it funny the guy has to be a mixed martial arts or Brazilian jujitsu black belt. lo Are those the only guys that count as skilled fighters to you? Having just spent the weekend viewing a point karate tourney, I would say my views on the actual fighting ability of many "black belts" isn't in the high range. Not to mention the number of people who walk in off the street claiming to be a black belt.

Pro MMA fighters and BJJ blackbelts, on the other hand, are pretty hard to beat. It is also relatively hard for them to claim false credentials, since most BJJ blackbelts and pro MMA fighters are easily verified. Since you referred to these tough black belts coming in and getting 'schooled" as you referred to it, then these would be the kind of people I would be thinking of. If you guys are easily beating them, then, yes, I would be impressed.

Originally posted by mortal
Both things you mentioned are sports.
And are just as effective in the street as any "streetfighting" art.

mortal

11-17-2004, 12:21 PM

"It seems that in the TMA world, the only verification of real fighting skill seems to be stories told from teachers to students or from one student to the next."

I couldn't agree with you more. I understand your frustration. You want proof.

When I watch my Sifu do Wing Chun I know it is effective. It is obvious. That is why when I see these other people doing the same thing, except not as good, it bothers me.
I guess my point after a certain level you could tell when someones capable of kicking butt.

Do you have a clip of this famous challenge match. I would reall like to see it.

hunt1

11-17-2004, 12:35 PM

Joy , its interesting that you should mention Jui Wans school and Jason. Way back in 83/84 my first teacher was Jasons older brother. At times it seemed that any WC fighter from the 60s in Hong Kong passed through Atlanta when visiting the states. I heard many first hand stories/accounts. The best part was a WSL student would tell a story and the 3 weeks later a TST student would tell the same story. Was a great way to learn who was legit and who wasnt in the Yip Man family.
Wing Chun ,and especially Jui Wans wing chun seemed to be far and away the preferred art of the Tongs and street fighters back then. Sad how time changes stories.
Never heard of any footage available, the fights werent preplanned,but while older from what I understand Jason is still more than happy to show his skills. Not something I would want to do but a great way for someone to prove their supper,better than all other wing chun skills.

Knifefighter

11-17-2004, 12:40 PM

The classical deadly street fighting martial artist troll is tough… just ask him.

Don’t ask him to show you, though. At least not in a full-contact setting. Also, don’t ask him to provide any kind of proof that his deadly techniques actually work against a halfway skilled or bigger, stronger opponent. He can’t do that because his techniques are too deadly and he could end up in jail for hurting or killing someone. Additionally, he has no need to prove anything, as his enlightenment far surpasses the need to actually try something to see if it really works.

He will, however, be happy to explain the intricacies of how weighting the feet from 61/59 to 62/58 significantly changes the ability to move laterally. He will also be happy to spend hours arguing about how his lineage is superior to the lineage of yours. Not to mention the hours he sits around in the kwoon discussing the deadly effectiveness of the variety of killing techniques and forms he has memorized.

While he isn’t much for providing anything in the way of tangible proof, he always believes the fighting exploits of his master that are told to him by his master or by his fellow students. He knows that in the "olden days" when his style was first invented, all the masters constantly used their styles in life and death confrontations. These stories are all he requires to know that he could use his style if he had to.

These trolls should not, however, be confused with those martial artists who actually go out and test the validity of what they are learning against other skilled fighters.

The classical deadly street fighting martial artist troll is characterized by an equal mixture of fantasizing about defending himself, awe of kung fu movies, and awkwardness in social situations.

old jong

11-17-2004, 12:48 PM

The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support Wing Chun gung fu, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of other styles. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves.

t_niehoff

11-17-2004, 12:51 PM

LOL! Yup, there is an old saying about "everyone is a master boxer behind closed doors." And they all have justifications for not opening the doors.

mortal

11-17-2004, 01:00 PM

You guys are pretty funny.

You should consider stand up.

Both of your posts make many good points.

I guess the bottom line is my teacher would kick your teachers ass in a challenge match on bullshido if it wasn't too deadly for the streets.

old jong

11-17-2004, 01:11 PM

BJJ guys are not good in stand up generally! ;)

SAAMAG

11-17-2004, 01:16 PM

This has gotten pretty funny. Both types of people exist here (and in real life...) it's just funny to hear it that way. Some people need proof their stuff works...others do it on blind faith. Such is life.

11-17-2004, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Vankuen
This has gotten pretty funny. Both types of people exist here (and in real life...) it's just funny to hear it that way. Some people need proof their stuff works...others do it on blind faith. Such is life.

And yet a great many others take the middle way, relying neither on "proof" nor on blind faith, but seeking instead reasonable and sound evidence combined with mitigation of risks by reducing probability of occurrence, impact if the risk does become realized, or both.

Just some loose thing that crossed my mind while reading.

Regards,
- kj

mortal

11-17-2004, 01:30 PM

I thought BJJ Black belts crawled everywhere. They walk?

Vajramusti

11-17-2004, 02:15 PM

Hunt 1-

Jason once brought his students to a Houston tournament with the students wearing army camoflage type of uniforms.

There were broken bones and teeth in those matches.

Later Jason reamed up with Wong Shon Leung and Tsui Tsong Tin
on center stage with all 3 doing the slt together-impressively.

old jong

11-17-2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
The classical deadly street fighting martial artist troll is tough… just ask him.

Don’t ask him to show you, though. At least not in a full-contact setting. Also, don’t ask him to provide any kind of proof that his deadly techniques actually work against a halfway skilled or bigger, stronger opponent. He can’t do that because his techniques are too deadly and he could end up in jail for hurting or killing someone. Additionally, he has no need to prove anything, as his enlightenment far surpasses the need to actually try something to see if it really works.... (balance deleted)

I was reading this again and suddenly it came to my mind: That kind of trolll couln't exist out of knifefighter's imagination! It was a good essai but,Have you ever seen TMA guys trolling on MMA forums?...Impossible because TMA people,for the most, have absolutely no interest in the MMA gospel and their sport fighting world.They are happy about what they're doing and couldn't care less about annoying others about their chosen styles or interests.They don't feel like having to prove something all the times and just want to mind their own business in peace.
MMA people obviously think and act differently. ;)
Your troll defenition is bogus Knifefighter.You are on a Wing Chun forum.We are not on some MMA place.Who is the troll?...;)

SAAMAG

11-17-2004, 02:49 PM

Good point Jong. But then I wouldnt know that because I don't frequent the mma forums.

And good point to you as well KJ...also something I should have thought of...didn't buddha preach the "middle path" for enlightenment?

old jong

11-17-2004, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Vankuen
Good point Jong. But then I wouldnt know that because I don't frequent the mma forums.

And good point to you as well KJ...also something I should have thought of...didn't buddha preach the "middle path" for enlightenment?

Jut see for yourself Vankuen! It is a fact that the noise is coming from only one direction.
Buddha was right in his times but I wonder how he would have dealed if internet "nirvana" forums would have existed then?...;)
I bet that "Maya trolls" would have been everywhere!...:D

Vajramusti

11-17-2004, 03:18 PM

Old Jong- one of the Mayas I know is very good looking woman.

What do you have against Maya-s in general

old jong

11-17-2004, 03:25 PM

Some Mayas are not mere illusions from the ego!...These mayas are good! ;)

russellsherry

11-17-2004, 04:53 PM

hi motel i am in australia , but sifu randy has a kwoon in mt pleasent , upstate new yow i will send you the seatials in your message box peace russellsherry

russellsherry

11-17-2004, 04:54 PM

hi motall it should have said new york sorry about russ

Knifefighter

11-17-2004, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by old jong
Have you ever seen TMA guys trolling on MMA forums?...
Impossible because TMA people,for the most, have absolutely no interest in the MMA gospel and their sport fighting world.
Your troll defenition is bogus Knifefighter.You are on a Wing Chun forum.We are not on some MMA place.Who is the troll?...;) The TMA guys are on MMA forums. They are just so insecure in their chosen arts that they pretend to be MMA or BJJ guys defending the effectiveness of TMA's. They give themselves away when they show themselves to be clueless about some of the more technical aspects of MMA/BJJ.

Who's the troll? The person who challenges assumptions, asks for proof, and questions the majority. Or is it the person who usually just posts with some sort of smart ass remark or two. Does not agreeing with everyone else make someone a troll? You be the judge.

Show me consistent proof of WC proving it's techniques in the open laboratory against others, the same way wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, judo, and Sambo have done, and I'll be right there supporting it with you.

AndyM

11-17-2004, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Show me consistent proof of WC proving it's techniques in the open laboratory against others, the same way wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, judo, and Sambo have done, and I'll be right there supporting it with you.

So like.... wrestling, boxing Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo and Sambo were all tested again's Lab Rats?:D

Who's the troll? The person who challenges assumptions, asks for proof, and questions the majority. Or is it the person who usually just posts with some sort of smart ass remark or two. I'm a Troll then? :D

Does not agreeing with everyone else make someone a troll? Nope, I disagree with you, so I can't be a Troll by your own hypothesis. :D

Knifefighter

11-17-2004, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Show me consistent proof of WC proving it's techniques in the open laboratory against others, the same way wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, judo, and Sambo have done, and I'll be right there supporting it with you. But, KF, those things you listed are all sports. They are much different than my deadly WC, which is strictly for maiming and killing on the street. You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes those SPORTS you listed are good, as far as it goes- in ring fights. I prefer to train and be ready for real applications and self-defense situations on the street. This is much more realistic than training for a sport where there are rules and a referee.

Sincerely,
The Classical Deadly Street Fighting Martial Artist Troll

Knifefighter

11-17-2004, 06:58 PM

Re: Traditional knee-jerk response to "sport styles".

BJJ has a vale tudo version, which is often done with no rules. We’ll disregard this for now, however, since these types of matches usually occur in Brazil.

In the mean time, let’s take a look at the Dog Brothers stickfighting arts, a system of fighting that is not a sport, but regularly has its fighters test themselves against others in an open, public environment. These fighters believe that regularly testing themselves is important to developing true martial skills, weeding out unrealistic techniques, and constantly evolving their fighting system. Because of this, they regularly hold gatherings that are open to all other fighters. These matches are not done by weight categories, have only minimal rules to keep hospital visits and brain damage to a minimum, and occur with a variety of impact weapons. As you can see, heavy damage does often times occur in these events:
http://dogbrothers.com/

Tapes of their matches are readily available showing the actual applications of their various techniques against fit, trained, aggressive, and resisting opponents. This allows for others to determine in an objective manner whether or not they believe the Dog Bros approach is a valid one in terms of techniques, applications, and training results.

Because of this approach, the Dog Bros. are held in very high regard by most other MA practitioners. There is nothing whatsoever keeping any WC or other TMA practitioner from doing the same type of open testing of their "non-sport" systems.

AndyM

11-17-2004, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
.

In the mean time, let’s take a look at the Dog Brothers stickfighting arts, a system of fighting that is not a sport, but regularly has its fighters test themselves against others in an open, public environment. These fighters believe that regularly testing themselves is important to developing true martial skills, weeding out unrealistic techniques, and constantly evolving their fighting system. Because of this, they regularly hold gatherings that are open to all other fighters. These matches are not done by weight categories, have only minimal rules to keep hospital visits and brain damage to a minimum, and occur with a variety of impact weapons. As you can see, heavy damage does often times occur in these events:
http://dogbrothers.com/

Tapes of their matches are readily available showing the actual applications of their various techniques against fit, trained, aggressive, and resisting opponents. This allows for others to determine in an objective manner whether or not they believe the Dog Bros approach is a valid one in terms of techniques, applications, and training results.

Because of this approach, the Dog Bros. are held in very high regard by most other MA practitioners. There is nothing whatsoever keeping any WC or other TMA practitioner from doing the same type of open testing of their "non-sport" systems.

Guess I'm something of a conundrum for you then Knifefighter, cos I train both WC and DBMA.

Knifefighter

11-17-2004, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by AndyM
Guess I'm something of a conundrum for you then Knifefighter, cos I train both WC and DBMA. No conundrum. At least you are training in one MA that regularly pressure tests it's techniques and puts it out there for the world at large to see.

AndyM

11-17-2004, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
No conundrum. At least you are training in one MA that regularly pressure tests it's techniques and puts it out there for the world at large to see.

And another that I value for other reasons. ;)

Ultimatewingchun

11-17-2004, 09:26 PM

"No conundrum. At least you are training in one MA that regularly pressure tests it's techniques and puts it out there for the world at large to see." (KF)

Any wonder I keep asking you about a particular event - given the fact that you always make comments like this one?

I'm all for full contact Wing Chun sparring tournaments - as I've talked about many times on this forum...but the lack of them to date doesn't negate what I've seen with my own two eyes for many years now...Wing Chun works in real streetfights...real hard contact sparring, etc.

Have seen it many times - on the street - with many people who've come into my school over the last twenty years - including people skilled in other "tournament tested" arts...karate, kickboxing, TKD, wrestling, boxing, BJJ, etc.

And have WC friends and acquaintances with very similar experiences.

Now before you ask me to name names and give the biographies and other credentials of these people from other "tested" styles...let me just stop you before you even begin.

I know good fighters when I see them...I've seen jiu jitsu guys with thirty years experience who couldn't even get a takedown against some Wing Chun people I know - and got their lights punched out while trying...for example. And real good boxers who suffered the same fate.

And I also know a lot of WC people who would wet their pants at the very thought of having to fight such people. A good boxer or BJJ fighter would be two of the very last people that they would ever want to fight. So what?

You seem to think that all WC people have to prove something to you...show me this...show me that.

We don't.

Some people around here have been around the block enough times...not...to have to prove anything to you - or anybody else.

They've already proven it to themselves...against people with very solid fighting skills.

Would I like to see that happen at open-to-the-public contact sparring tournaments on a frequent basis...of course!

But even without that - I know what I've seen/done through the years. And I know and have seen what some others within the WC world have done.

That's enough for me.

That's the bottom line.

Knifefighter

11-17-2004, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
You seem to think that all WC people have to prove something to you...show me this...show me that..Not at all. However, it does make it hard to make a pro-WC arguement when the only footage of "real WC fighting" is a joke.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Would I like to see that happen at open-to-the-public contact sparring tournaments on a frequent basis...of course!Easy enough to start on a grassroots level, as the Dog Bros have shown. All you need is a waiver, some open space, and a video camera.

AndyM

11-18-2004, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
[B]Not at all. However, it does make it hard to make a pro-WC arguement when the only footage of "real WC fighting" is a joke. Before taking this any further. What actual experience do you have in Wing Chun?

Stevo

11-18-2004, 02:49 AM

Ed, I enjoyed watching the videos on your website.

But isn't it a bit petty to fight over a bottle of water? What's more, it showed that Wing Chun is no good, because the guy who was trying to take the bottle of water failed to. I bet other martial arts would not only have got that bottle of water but would have smashed it to pieces with their superior technique ;)

edward

11-18-2004, 03:16 AM

Hopefully we are talkign about the same thing, the video with the water bottle between 2 individuals... that demonstration has nothing to do with fighting over the water.. but instead, the concept of being able to leave the point. THe individual or video your refering to is not trying to get the water, he's trying to retract his hand so he isn't stuck to Sifu Fong. If he were able to you then can visually see the water bottle drop, thus he'd break the stick. However, no matter where he moved his hand, Sifu Fong's was always there.

Nick Forrer

11-18-2004, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
At least you are training in one MA that regularly pressure tests it's techniques and puts it out there for the world at large to see.

Since there seems to be a large amount of confusion on this board about the concepts of 'fighting' or 'aliveness' or 'pressure testing' as they relate to training in WC I thought it would be good to try and establish some mutual frame of reference so that everyone doesnt keep going around in circles on this point!!

so.............here is a video clip of two of my class mates giving a demo. They are demonstrating what we normally classify as free chi sau (chi sau rather than sparring since they start from rolling hands as opposed to non contact- what KF once refered to as that 'silly sterring wheel motion with the arms' if i remember right)

Now *everyone* feel free to say whether or not you think training in this fashion is 'alive' enough to develop fighting skills.

Hopefully we may come to some mutual agreement.

The Video clip on the far right, second down from top (file name: 8 wmv) (http://www.vt.com.hk/where_is_a_terminal_point/html/int_vt_movies.htm)

t_niehoff

11-18-2004, 06:15 AM

A few thoughts . . .

Knifefighter's WCK "acumen" shouldn't be an issue -- he's spot on in his views about WCK "evolving" into a nonmartial art.

Victor, there is no need to organize full-contact WCK tournaments -- full-contact, NHB events already exist, as do MMA gyms where one can also get the "experience." If someone wants to get experience fighting skilled opponents, this is the place to go. Sticking to fighting just with ourselves IMO just looks like another way to avoid seeing reality.

Nick, nice clip. You ask whether that sort of training will develop fighting skills -- IME, it depends (sort of asking if working with focus mitts will help or not). It will if you are fighting as part of your training. It will not if you are not fighting as part of your training. If you think this sort of training will develop significant fighting skills (without fighting as part of your training), it's easy to test whether or not it will (so you can see for yourself).

Regards,

Terence

AndyM

11-18-2004, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
A few thoughts . . .

Knifefighter's WCK "acumen" shouldn't be an issue -- he's spot on in his views about WCK "evolving" into a nonmartial art.

I've got a specific reason for asking though, just as I could have asked what his experience in DBMA is too.

Ernie

11-18-2004, 08:19 AM

Nick
Now *everyone* feel free to say whether or not you think training in this fashion is 'alive' enough to develop fighting skills.

----simple answer bro, NO

Nedret and Andy did a good job at showing '' chi sau '' with springy pressure but that does very little into tranlating into fighting . great for chi sau and developing chi sau tools

but this is why wing chun vs wing chun is such a waste of time and creates false hope

two dudes doing the same thing attacking the same way lacks adaptability

so no it's not very *live*

a wing chun guy will stay up and come done the pipe and try and hold his center while blowing the other guys out

real life people don't fight like that , the bend twist run , tackle , clinch etc
these things happen way more then chi sau positions

like WSL said we don't go out to chi sau our opponents we go out to fight , don't confuse the two

also this *pressured * type of chi sau though develops good strucutre and speed also has one big draw back if left un checked
over commiments , were they spring forward to much and jam themselves , this caused people to trip or run past and tangle up and hit the floor [ better have ground skills :D ]

or real good clinch skills , lets not forget there was no development of closing the gap , so another simple *fight* element not being cultivated

so not picking on the guys at all that was good healthy chi sau

but just one small part of a much bigger picture :cool:

t_niehoff

11-18-2004, 09:10 AM

Nice post, Ernie. Experience will show anyone that what he is saying is true -- you don't need to take his or anyone's word for it. Find out for yourself.

Ultimatewingchun

11-18-2004, 09:27 AM

"A wing chun guy will stay up and come done the pipe and try and hold his center while blowing the other guys out...real life people don't fight like that, they bend, twist, run, tackle, clinch, etc...these things happen way more then chi sau positions...like WSL said we don't go out to chi sau our opponents we go out to fight, don't confuse the two...also this *pressured * type of chi sau though develops good strucutre and speed also has one big draw back if left unchecked over commitments, where they spring forward too much and jam themselves , this causes people to trip or run past and tangle up and hit the floor [better have ground skills]... or real good clinch skills, let's not forget there was no development of closing the gap, so another simple *fight* element is not being cultivated."

Good stuff, Ernie.

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by AndyM
Before taking this any further. What actual experience do you have in Wing Chun? Enough to hang with most WC guys in a "steering wheel contest".

Ultimatewingchun

11-18-2004, 09:55 AM

"Victor, there is no need to organize full-contact WCK tournaments...sticking to fighting just with ourselves IMO just looks like another way to avoid seeing reality."

Agreed, Terence. But it's a start. Could always evolve into open tournaments.

Nick Forrer

11-18-2004, 09:56 AM

Hi Ernie

Originally posted by Ernie
Nedret and Andy did a good job at showing '' chi sau '' with springy pressure but that does very little into tranlating into fighting . great for chi sau and developing chi sau tools

Sure. Chi sau is part of the picture, just as wall bag and dummy are. But obviously chi sau must have some applicability to fighting, otherwise there's no reason to do it (perhaps it is just a steering wheel motion periodically interspersed with flicky backfists - but i think that the clip i posted shows it doesnt have to be).

Originally posted by Ernie
But this is why wing chun vs wing chun is such a waste of time and creates false hope

Depends on the quality of the other guys wing chun IMO. Although of course the quality of the training partner is important irrespective of style

Originally posted by Ernie
two dudes doing the same thing attacking the same way lacks adaptability so no it's not very *live* .........a wing chun guy will stay up and come done the pipe and try and hold his center while blowing the other guys out real life people don't fight like that , the bend twist run , tackle , clinch etc

same argument applies to two guys rolling in bjj (supposedly the apex of 'aliveness'- starting from the knees, on mats, each one following the same strategy i.e. looking for position and submission, probably relying on the Gi to do so, neither one striking, biting, butting, kneeing or gouging as they defend or attack respectively).

mortal

11-18-2004, 10:03 AM

The stick fighting on the video was very sloppy. Hey if that is what your into God bless. Not for me though.

Are those wiffleball bats?

You guys should start wearing armor. lol

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Now *everyone* feel free to say whether or not you think training in this fashion is 'alive' enough to develop fighting skills.

Hopefully we may come to some mutual agreement.

The Video clip on the far right, second down from top (file name: 8 wmv) (http://www.vt.com.hk/where_is_a_terminal_point/html/int_vt_movies.htm) I think that was a pretty good example of more alive training, especially if it could be combined with the clinches and takedowns that will naturally occur from there. I think you could definitely use that type of training shown in that clip to enchance your skills for close range and inside fighting. Other than the tendency to have to stay in the "steering wheel position", some flicky stuff here and there, I think that was quite good and more representative of the reality of what really occurs at close range and in the clinch . Obviously, if that is all you do, then you will have trouble translating it to reality.

Compare that to the clip of the blindfolded guy which was hokey and unrealistic.

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by mortal
The stick fighting on the video was very sloppy.
Are those wiffleball bats? I'm not sure what video you saw, but most matches at the gatherings are fought with rattan sticks.
Full contact stick fighting often does look "sloppy".

mortal

11-18-2004, 10:31 AM

I agree.

The wingchun in the clip was more in line with what my school is like. You guys look like fun to train with.

The one thing I noticed. One guy turned his back a couple of times while the other guy unloaded. Both of the guys looked experianced but that is an amatuer mistake.

An easy way to get choked out.

Never turn your back on your opponent.

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by mortal
One guy turned his back a couple of times while the other guy unloaded. Both of the guys looked experianced but that is an amatuer mistake. That is the sign of someone who hasn't taken much in terms of hard hits before.- one of the drawbacks of too much chi sao training.

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
same argument applies to two guys rolling in bjj (supposedly the apex of 'aliveness'- starting from the knees, on mats, each one following the same strategy i.e. looking for position and submission, probably relying on the Gi to do so, neither one striking, biting, butting, kneeing or gouging as they defend or attack respectively). Starting from the knees cuts down on injuries, which are quite high when doing takedowns all the time. Contrary to what the local TMA trolls might tell you, however, most BJJ schools spend a good amount of time starting from standing, as well as training in takedowns.

Training on mats is obviously needed to prevent injuries in training. Mat experience translates directly to harder surfaces and the person who hasn't had the hard training on the mats is the one who ends up suffering on the hard surface.

The gi is good tool to work with in terms of learning how to use someone's clothing against them. You can completely shut someone down by controlling their sleeves and can easily choke someone out with their t-shirt collar. Most BJJ schools also train no-gi, to learn the ground game without the handles that the gi provides.

Most BJJ practioners have done a fair to large amount of vale tudo training, which includes striking, in addition to grappling.

BJJ also has a tradition of testing itself against all comers, so most experienced BJJ guys have gone against a number of people from outside their style.

AndyM

11-18-2004, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Enough to hang with most WC guys in a "steering wheel contest". Though evidently not enough to take any value from it?

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by AndyM
Though evidently not enough to take any value from it? I think I developed some pretty bad habits from it. If I could do it over, I would have instead spent that time working inside boxing skills, greco-roman techniques, and muay thai clinch skills.

sihing

11-18-2004, 11:30 AM

the why do you spend time on a Wing Chun forum, if you have virtually no respect towards it and value it little?

James

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by sihing
the why do you spend time on a Wing Chun forum, if you have virtually no respect towards it and value it little?
It's like a train wreck... you just have to watch.

Actually, I do respect what some WC people are doing- Ernie and Terrence are a couple of examples and they provide valuable insights, which the rest of you should take to heart. I thought Nick's video was quite good and showed how chi sao could be used as a realistic training tool. Even, cough... choke... gag... Victor has a good take on a lot of things.

Also, I'm much more agreeable in real life, so this is a good outlet for my dark side.

Ernie

11-18-2004, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
It's like a train wreck... you just have to watch.

Actually, I do respect what some WC people are doing- Ernie and Terrence are a couple of examples and they provide valuable insights, which the rest of you should take to heart. I thought Nick's video was quite good and showed how chi sao could be used as a realistic training tool.

Also, I'm much more agreeable in real life, so this is a good outlet for my dark side.

thanks KF

I have had offline conversations with KF and he is cool and I would have no problem working out with him could tell it would not be a wing chun vs this or that just to dudes having fun

but I always like his post and this is why

to many ''yes men , sifu slaves '' in wing chun it's gone way over to the pansy side

and each generation of technicians , gets weaker living off the past or some cookie cutter method

KF makes you think and lets you into the mind of what many MMA artist see when they look at wing chun , they see the holes in the system and much worse the holes in the training methods

to many people sitting around collecting dust saying '' he did you feel the hair on my arm move , I would have killed you with my punch and chi ''

if you look at any old school wing chun video dudes banged and got busted up that was part of the training

now it's all like well , what about the kids and the little old man with the wooden leg and glass eye crap

so like anything when you have the chance to investigate the thought process of a type of martial artist you might have to mix it up with , it's a gift

Nick

chi sau is chi sau , road work is road work , timing is timing , and so on it all is just a part of the picture nothing more nothing less

when you get unbalanced and try and make one thing bigger then the rest , it's when all the what if desperation stuff kicks in

when you develop a favorite thing you also develop a crutch and when you can not make your crutch work [ bad times bro ]

like I said I like the pressure but to me that is just regular basic chi sau

the empty soft wind shield wiper thing people do is not chi sau just waving
hands

;)

Ultimatewingchun

11-18-2004, 12:02 PM

"Also, I'm much more agreeable in real life, so this is a good outlet for my dark side." (KF)

Now that was funny stuff, dude.

And probably true of a lot of people.

sihing

11-18-2004, 12:11 PM

Do you think that Ernie and Terence are the first to implement things like this? I respect them too as well as everyone on here. I try not to make things personal, because each and everyone of us have something to offer one another and we can learn from each other too.

It's obvious to me that Ernie and Terence are looking for a reality in combat, using Wing Chun as the delivery system. They have certain thoughts on how to achieve that reality, and it has helped allot on here in improving their WC. Some train in the Wing Chun in a very unrealistic way, but not all. Personally I have no problem saying that I do not train like I used to, I have other things and concerns that are more important to me than sparring, kicking the bag and exploring other Martial Arts to supposedly "complete" myself. I did all that stuff for years and now my focus is in regards to other areas concerning Wing Chun. I will never put someone down for following what they believe is right for them at this moment in time, and if they ask for advice I will give them my 2 cents.

But for some the byproduct of Wing Chun training is the self defense abilities they gain from it. I've had many students that were looking for other things from the training, spiritual enlightenment, a sense of well being, confidence, fitness and health, attainment of a physical skill just for its own purpose, etc...Are these people fooling themselves? Well if they think they are supreme fighters they might be, but I'm sure that if they trained hard for any period of time and understood some of what they trained in that some of that will come out in a situation that required it. Fighting in a sporting competition is totally different and requires a different mentality. As others have said it's all about what you want out of it that counts. I've gotten everything I wanted out of it so I am satisfied, and confident in what I can do with it. These forums just serve a purpose for me to exchange ideas and learn what others think about a common subject matter that has significant meaning to all of us.

James

SAAMAG

11-18-2004, 12:17 PM

I love wing chun as well, as it's one of my primary arts. I feel that it has increased my fighting prowess very much since having learned it years ago. But I also know that muay thai did the same thing as did the little bit of BJJ that I studied.

There's a certain feeling of excitement when you go and practice an art that specializes in an area of fighting you're unfamiliar with. I remember that feeling when I starting going full contact in muay thai and got my first shot in the face. I also remember that feeling when I took my first roll doing BJJ and my first choke out (with me being the recipient).

I know this next statement might go against the grain of most of you, but wing chun is a very very very specialized art. It is not complete by any means. Being conceptual it's lessons can be applied in almost any arena of fighting, but in and of itself it's specialized. One NEEDS to gain experience in other things in order to say he's truly prepared for a "real" confrontation. This is not to say that the fight cannot be won using only wing chun, but again, I say to think about the millions of variables in fighting alone, and then the millions of variables of the types of people you might be going against.

Now with all this being said, Sihing also makes a good point in that not everyone's goal is that same as another's. This post in particular, is for the one's who are looking to gain pure fighting experience alone.

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by sihing
Do you think that Ernie and Terence are the first to implement things like this? Ernie, Terence, cough.. gag..Victor..choke.., and Vankuen are different from you and the rest of the brainwashed WC masses who think that you "just have to look hard enough into your WC" to find everything you might need. They know that WC is not a complete art and that it will only help you to add elements from other systems.

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by sihing
I've had many students that were looking for other things from the training, spiritual enlightenment, a sense of well being, confidence, fitness and health, attainment of a physical skill just for its own purpose, etc...Are these people fooling themselves? Only if they are thinking they have trained to be well-rounded fighters.

Ultimatewingchun

11-18-2004, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Vankuen
I know this next statement might go against the grain of most of you, but wing chun is a very very very specialized art. It is not complete by any means. Being conceptual it's lessons can be applied in almost any arena of fighting, but in and of itself it's specialized. One NEEDS to gain experience in other things in order to say he's truly prepared for a "real" confrontation. This is not to say that the fight cannot be won using only wing chun, but again, I say to think about the millions of variables in fighting alone, and then the millions of variables of the types of people you might be going against.

That's right, Van. It is a specialized art. Good post.

sihing

11-18-2004, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Ernie, Terence, cough.. gag..Victor..choke.., and Vankuen are different from you and the rest of the brainwashed WC masses who think that you "just have to look hard enough into your WC" to find everything you might need. They know that WC is not a complete art and that it will only help you to add elements from other systems.

Knifefighter & Vankuen, you forgot to preface your comments with IMO.

I've seen lots of the Wing Chun out there and most of it is incomplete. Please one of you, or anyone define complete.

I am capable of fighting in all ranges(kicking, punching, trapping and grappling) while standing, kneeling, sitting or laying on the ground. Unless someone has learned how to levitate then I think I have covered all the areas of combat. I've learned to kick high and low, to use a knife or club, bat or staff, break an arm or hit you many times a second. I'm I the best at all of these things? Nope. I'm better in certain areas than others, just due to my natural skills and interests. My one Sihing is a great technician and loves the conditioning aspect of teaching Wing Chun. Another Sidis loves the Chin-na aspect of the Wing Chun and likes to grapple, while even another loves the kicking aspect of it. All of these people are full instructors, we all know the same things but express it in individual ways, not like duplicate robots. Sifu, he's different and a exception, he knows and likes it all and can express it all, and since he is the primary source of information I guess we are all different extensions of his WC interrpretation, with our own individuality added to it.

I know that most of the WC out there doesn't address all of this, but mine does, so when someone says the Wing Chun is incomplete I must respectfully disagree.

James

Vajramusti

11-18-2004, 01:57 PM

Vankuen sez::

but wing chun is a very very very specialized art. It is not complete by any means. Being conceptual it's lessons can be applied in almost any arena of fighting, but in and of itself it's specialized. One NEEDS to gain experience in other things in order to say he's truly prepared for a "real" confrontation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I differ in large part- perhaps due to definitional differences on what we mean by wing chun.

Wing chun is not just a series of techniques and motions. It is a comprehensive art- it is not a tool box which you reach into and grab a tool- whether it be a technique, a motion, or a concept. The essential working logic of the art gets embedded in the individual practicing it in differing degrees and one's own wing chun grows with each devlopment..and the devlopment path is based on skills being added to skills.

As a fighting art of course practical experience within the bounds of survival, ethics and the law adds to one's development. Unless you are one of Old Jong;s clients- there is only one you-whether you are standing up, sitting or rolling-whther you have a weapon or you dont. There are no fixed stages in a fight. Contexts vary and strategies vary. But a fight is a fight is a fight and each one has unique features to it.

A full course of wing chun training includes adapting to whatever is there-that includes developing a penetrating wing chun mind-
that also trains you for calmness in the midst of a storm. Great fighters can adapt and invent things in the middle of a fight or a confrontaion. Sustained wing chun trains that ability IMO and in my experience and the experience of many others I know.

Ip Man himself adapted with the seasons. As a young man his feet were even better than his hands. In the aging process he depended more on the timing of his hands and developing little micro motions that minimzed the need for great stremgth.

He did not imposea limted box of tools on anyone.

The weaknesses are likely to be in the development of the individual's understanding of the art.

Stability, mobility. different kinds of timing, gap closing, escaping
from being trapped, versatility of attacks, knowing the largest number of angles and lines, usage of almost any part of the body when needed....., not being trapped by one's own technique if it is not working... switching gears-- wing chun is in you not in a box.

Without developing paranoia- urban or otherwise- wing chun from the start and even now is a fighting art. Health, calmness etc are side products- not the main course.

If someone has gaps in their wing chun training and there isnt a competent analyst or the interest to look for one- I can understand the propriety of adding this or that ingredient-it's the individual's shortcoming- not the art.

Times are different from IM's youth- sure. But the mechanics and principles of human structure and its most flexible use-that's what wing chun captures after evolving from other CMA. And that structure changes more slowly than "techne".

(essaying not directed to trolls or non wc folks, thank ye)

SAAMAG

11-18-2004, 02:05 PM

Hey James, I guess I'll be the first one to bite here. The mainstream of wing chun does not contain ground fighting (not just chin na ,which is jointlocking and limb immobilization) and from what I understand of wing chun history never really did. Rene R. might be able to shed more light on the subject in this aspect, as I am not a true "historian".

The only wing chun "groundwork" that I've seen aside from from Emin Boztepe's system and the LT group, is kicking from the ground, or learning to applying sticking and chin na from the ground. That in an of itself is not what I consider the totality of groundfighting. It is however learning to use your system on the ground. So it's better then doing nothing on the ground. But I think we (Ernie, KF, Vic, etc...) are talking the encompassing of style transcending techniques, not just learning to chain punch or chain kick from the ground. (not to say that is what YOU necessarily do James...) But would you be familiar with the application or defense of a triangle choke if you never learned anything of JJ/BJJ? Would you be able to feel the setup for it if you have never come across it? Just something to think about.

Just to nitpick, I've always learned that in wing chun the kicks go no higher then the midsection in application. So high kicking skills are not from my experience something that is learned from wing chun. This doesn't mean you can't learn it on your own...but it's not wing chun from my experience. (There is that one kick in Biu gee, because I know someone will mention it....:D )

I too, have learned different areas of fighting, but because my background came from various systems, I've learned every kick just about to know in the martial arts, mostly from TKD and Shaolin gung fu. I can kick you from just about anywhere from any angle. I may apply it in the practice of wing chun, but it's not wing chun. I can box, use muay thai hands and elbows, I can do it in combination with my chung choi, but it's still did not originate from wing chun.

I guess the bottom line here in terms of effectiveness in various areas of fighting goes, is to ask yourself this:

"If my wing chun taught me total ....

punching skills...then could I pit myself with an amatuer boxer and be able to hold my own?

Kicking skills...then could I pit myself with a black belt in TKD or Shaolin or muay thai kicking only and be able to hold my own?

Grappling skills...here is the big one...would I be able to pit myself against any average grappler ( or someone with the same time in grappling as the time you've put into your wing chun) and hold my own, again, grappling only?

ETC....ETC....

If you think your game is complete in any area, think about how you would perform against someone who specializes in that area. Then you will know what I mean about being complete.

old jong

11-18-2004, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
The TMA guys are on MMA forums. They are just so insecure in their chosen arts that they pretend to be MMA or BJJ guys defending the effectiveness of TMA's. They give themselves away when they show themselves to be clueless about some of the more technical aspects of MMA/BJJ.

Well!...I'm not a member of that clan. I just wonder about those guys,if they really exist:
-Why are they staying in any art if they "feel insecure in it" ?
-Why do they have to "defend" the effectiveness of TMA's to people who will only react negatively anyway?...Sounds like a big loss of times IMO (Like we see a lot around here!)

-I'm not even beginning to think about trying to convince you about the values of my art.I really don't care about what you (or the MMA clan) think anyway.I do what I like and I don't pretend to be the ultimate fighter or whatever.I also,believe it or not,don't claim to be the ultimate street destructor armed with poison hands.I am just some guy who happens to train in a certain style of Gung Fu for personal reasons.I also don't feel like kissing your arse for your approval and for looking tough for some internet community.

anerlich

11-18-2004, 02:20 PM

Sifu, he's different and a exception, he knows and likes it all and can express it all

Perhaps you should write to the Pope and ask he be beatified as a first step toward sainthood. Joking, but jeez you could tone it down just a little ...

I seem to remember in one of your *many* recountings of his, um, "exploits" that he too had experience in a wide range of martial arts.

You confidence in your abilities is good. The philosophical question here is whether you want one art to be all things, or whether mixing and matching is a better way to go. If you think that you and GGGGGGGGGGGM Lewadny have found the ultimate truth, good for you. But that's a personal truth for you only, and other peoples' opinions are equally valid - for them.

I like my instructor too, but I don't need him to come along to my arguments here ...

SAAMAG

11-18-2004, 02:24 PM

sihing

11-18-2004, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Vankuen
Hey James, I guess I'll be the first one to bite here. The mainstream of wing chun does not contain ground fighting (not just chin na ,which is jointlocking and limb immobilization) and from what I understand of wing chun history never really did. Rene R. might be able to shed more light on the subject in this aspect, as I am not a true "historian".

The only wing chun "groundwork" that I've seen aside from from Emin Boztepe's system and the LT group, is kicking from the ground, or learning to applying sticking and chin na from the ground. That in an of itself is not what I consider the totality of groundfighting. It is however learning to use your system on the ground. So it's better then doing nothing on the ground. But I think we (Ernie, KF, Vic, etc...) are talking the encompassing of style transcending techniques, not just learning to chain punch or chain kick from the ground. (not to say that is what YOU necessarily do James...) But would you be familiar with the application or defense of a triangle choke if you never learned anything of JJ/BJJ? Would you be able to feel the setup for it if you have never come across it? Just something to think about.

Just to nitpick, I've always learned that in wing chun the kicks go no higher then the midsection in application. So high kicking skills are not from my experience something that is learned from wing chun. This doesn't mean you can't learn it on your own...but it's not wing chun from my experience. (There is that one kick in Biu gee, because I know someone will mention it....:D )

I too, have learned different areas of fighting, but because my background came from various systems, I've learned every kick just about to know in the martial arts, mostly from TKD and Shaolin gung fu. I can kick you from just about anywhere from any angle. I may apply it in the practice of wing chun, but it's not wing chun. I can box, use muay thai hands and elbows, I can do it in combination with my chung choi, but it's still did not originate from wing chun. I'm sure you've learned a great many things in the different ranges and areas of fighting, but I suspect it didn't all come from wing chun from some of the techniques you're saying.

Good post Vankuen,

Its all about perspective and experience. As for triangle chokes or anything for that matter, the more surprise you apply to your movements the more effective it will be. The 1st UFC's were a perfect example of this with the effectiveness of GJJ being demonstrated against people that have never seen it or fought against it before. The same story is not true today, meaning that the effectiveness has been lessened due to our exposure to the arts of GJJ/BJJ, we are more aware of them and what they can do. Earlier in another thread I postulated the possibilities of a Master Wing Chun instructor incorporating/developing grappling techniques with no exposure to JJ or BJJ. I think this is possible using only WC concepts and principals if one had the time and inclination to do so. It would take some time for sure. I don't believe in the statement that a headlock is not a WC technique. WC teaches us to use anything the we need to get the job done, only that it be efficient and effective. I believe my Sifu has done just this, but do we start the fight on the ground? No. Personally I believe that it is more effective and safer to fight standing up, but knowledge of this facet of fighting is essential, and the WC can be applied from any position, in any circumstance. The same applies to the high kicks. We can apply them in practical purposes but it requires more physical attributes like speed, strength & flexibility to successfully do so. So as a basic rule I always like to teach to kick high in training but lower in fighting in most cases, but with every rule there is exceptions. If my opponent is 5' tall, and me being about 6'2", I could easily kick him in the head, but if the reverse were true it would be more difficult. It was always taught to me that teaching the basic methods of Martial Arts is important, rather than just the specifics of one style. I've learned how to throw a boxing punch or karate punch , etc.., so that I can adequately attack my partner in training situations. Obviously I learned this from my Sifu, since he is the only personal instructor I have had, but I have tried to be open minded too and have looked at others methods in concerns to MA in general, and also specifically in the WC clan.

When I first started to learn WC my plan was to learn all of it then learn TKD or some kicking art to learn that stuff, then the other Kung fu styles Sifu was versed in. After a year of WC training Sifu stopped teaching the others arts and I changed my mind on learning the other arts also. I saw all of it encompassed in the Wing Chun. Maybe if I was a millionaire and had time on my hands I would take up the BJJ for the sake of curiosity, and general interest in the Martial Arts, but I don't feel the need today to study it for self defence purpose to "complete" myself, I already feel that way with the WC I know personally.

James

SAAMAG

11-18-2004, 03:14 PM

SOOOOO!!! YOU'RE SAYING YOUR SIFU KNEW OTHER ARTS AS WELL AND USED TO TEACH THEM?! Perhaps that is where you learned the other forms of hitting and kicking and grappling? ;)

(I'm semi joking with you at this point....)

sihing

11-18-2004, 03:26 PM

Well his exposure to other arts may have helped him along the way, but when he teaches these things, grappling, ground fighting, kicking, etc.. he shows where they are in the Wing Chun structure and how the Wing Chun concept applies, and we use only WC technique when applying them, not Hung Gar or Woo Dip.

For the last few summer camps that we host every July, he would show us forms and applications of the others systems he is versed in. They are different in application from the WC, so if he was teaching us things outside of the WC system it would be obvious to everyone. Hung Gar and Wing Chun don't mix very well, in a physical sence, very different systems of combat. WC and Woo Dip(Butterfly style) are more compatable from what I understand.

Here's a link to a recent Magazine article on Sifu, http://www.kickstartmag.ca/online_magazine/, pages 8 & 9.

James

Vajramusti

11-18-2004, 04:23 PM

And Joy this is in reply to your last post:

In terms of the wing chun concepts and principles being easily transposed to other areas of fighting I wholeheartily agree. In fact when I first started MT and BJJ I used the wing chun to the best of my ability to aid me in holding my own based on what I knew of the art I was practicing. (it was very useful in BJJ in terms of sensetivity and the chin na did throw a couple of them for a couple seconds...but then you get sweat all over you and they manage to slip out. )

((Sweat works to your advantage to in flowing from motion to motion))

Now maybe it was just me, and maybe I should re-read what you wrote but a lot of what you posted basically says that it's the fighter and not the style that determines the outcome of the fight?

((Both the fighter's mentality and experience are important- but wing chun is a complete art IMO. If the other person is a fighter and you are too- advantage wing chun provided you dont play their game in their yard))

If that is what you meant then I agree with that as well. A great natural fighter would be able to adapt to different areas naturally. But ask yourself if you are one of those. And be honest in the answer because your life depends on it. (This was not intended for you directly J, but as a rhetorical question for everyone.)

((I have faith and confidence in my wing chun- but beyond a knife or a stick- run , pray or borrow a bazooka-use your brains)

Again, I direct you to the previous post for James that I made...without experience with people outside the system, can you truly say that you would perform well?

((I have never argued against getting variety of experiences outside of your lineage or style. Visiting someone's house you dont have to live there))

I guess I'm not saying persay that you all HAVE to go out and learn techniques from every system to be a "complete fighter" (although it can hold no negative effect in my book). What I am saying is that one must at least have experience in fighting people of other schools.

((See above))

I like to try and make friends with guys that train in a variety of arts,

((I have friends in many arts))

so that we can pit each other against respective styles in a friendly way in efforts to help each other in the reality of fighting. After all, you never know what you're going to get when you roll the dice out there. You might get lucky and fight an out of shape *******, and the you might have to fight 5 guys that are all 10 year seasoned MMA fighters. ( I vote for the first one...)

((( As Gump sez-- life's a box of chocolates- you never know what you are going to get. You can always create demons-if your mind creates demons-there is always another one around the corner.
And chance plays a role too- wrong place at the wrong time- a stab in the dark...a car comes careening out of nowhere-someone drops a bunker buster on the wrong house))

((Gotta get ready for wing chun))

Knifefighter

11-18-2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by sihing
I don't believe in the statement that a headlock is not a WC technique. I don't doubt that it is... it seems to in the arsenal of most systems and people who don't really understand groundfighting and grappling.

Any groundfighter above novice level will tell you you never want to be applying headlocks on someone.

Ultimatewingchun

11-18-2004, 07:27 PM

James:

Two things about this -

1) Good Lord, James...what a stretch! Wing Chun headlocks??? Which one of the forms or wooden dummy sections did that come from???

2) Maybe two or three positions on the ground are conducive to headlocks - especially if they can be chained into a neck crank or a choke - or as a setup for an armlock of some kind, perhaps...

but for the most part - stay away from using headlocks. Especially while standing - since they are a formula for defeat, because the opponent is BEHIND you and still has his footing and balance. And a free hand to immediately attack your eyes with. As well as other things he can do. Not a good plan.

SAAMAG

11-18-2004, 08:54 PM

Yea the headlock thing to me was definitely reaching. I just didn't want to be the one to have to say it.

sihing

11-18-2004, 09:16 PM

I think you guys missed the point, but the headlock applied correctly with sweeps, takedowns etc..can be effective, especially with a soften tool applied before hand, but that wasn't even the point. The point was that you can apply many WC technqiues to grappling, you just have to see it and then learn how to apply it. Neck controls, elbow controls, arm bars, throws, sweeps, leg/knee/ankle locks are all apart of the cirriculum at the school and when taught they are taught with WC technqiues. I'll try to get some video clip made up and put it on the site for you to see.
Just because it is not common place doesn't mean it doesn't exist..

James

anerlich

11-18-2004, 09:23 PM

Earlier in another thread I postulated the possibilities of a Master Wing Chun instructor incorporating/developing grappling techniques with no exposure to JJ or BJJ.

It's a possibility I guess.

But it makes about as much sense as blazing a trail through the brush, when there's a twelve-lane superhighway to the same destination that thousands of others have already travelled down about twenty yards away.

You could say that the Gum/tan/Garn section of SLT has an application of applying a headlock once you have got the guy bent at the waist.

Most grapplers agree the headlock is a stupid move - the attitude is basically: "You think you've got my head with your two arms, but actually I've got your two arms with my head." You 've used two of your best weapons, your arms, to tie up his head, and you can't even strike him really from there - both his arms are free to protect against knees, etc.

You learn escapes from a variety of headlocks, both on the ground and standing, in about your third BJJ lesson. It's just not that good a control position.

A grappler with intermedaite experience can easily show you several much more effective positions which involve control of the head - most of which also include control of an arm as well. and some of which only require you to use one arm.

anerlich

11-18-2004, 09:54 PM

Neck controls, elbow controls, arm bars, throws, sweeps, leg/knee/ankle locks are all apart of the cirriculum at the school and when taught they are taught with WC technqiues.

I used to think we did all this five to ten years ago. I know a KF guy in Canberra who's been doing it about 40 years and does KF style chin-na and kum-na extremely well.

But BJJ and Greco are several quantum leaps ahead.

anerlich

11-18-2004, 09:58 PM

BTW, Nick's stuff looks pretty good. Just to get back on topic.

sihing

11-18-2004, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
I used to think we did all this five to ten years ago. I know a KF guy in Canberra who's been doing it about 40 years and does KF style chin-na and kum-na extremely well.

But BJJ and Greco are several quantum leaps ahead.

I think its just a different emphases, obviously the BJJ/Greco specializes more in that area, but we like to also know how to fight in those environments. I personally am know super expert at the chin-na/grappling aspect, but I can perform them and use them if necessary.

By the way Andrew, is there any footage of Sifu Sapin on the net anywhere? I've only been able to find pic's and such but never any video.

James

black and blue

11-19-2004, 02:04 AM

"Here's a link to a recent Magazine article on Sifu, http://www.kickstartmag.ca/online_magazine/, pages 8 & 9."

Okay, I will say it because no one else dares to.... he looks kinda funny!

:D

Matrix

11-19-2004, 08:09 AM

B&B,

One thing that I learned I long time ago, is that judging someone by their appearance can be a fatal mistake...........

black and blue

11-19-2004, 08:17 AM

Not saying he can't fight... just saying he cracked me up! :D :D :D

AndyM

11-19-2004, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I think I developed some pretty bad habits from it. If I could do it over, I would have instead spent that time working inside boxing skills, greco-roman techniques, and muay thai clinch skills. Yet surely if you simply rely on a system to provide you with all your worldly goods, you will always end up being dissapointed?
You don't think perhaps, that you maybe have been blind, following the blind, and you are generalising about other people, other members of this forum and WC itself?

[further cliche]There's cruddy boxing, pankration and MT schools out there too! [/further cliche]

t_niehoff

11-19-2004, 11:36 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Knifefighter
I think I developed some pretty bad habits from it. If I could do it over, I would have instead spent that time working inside boxing skills, greco-roman techniques, and muay thai clinch skills.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yet surely if you simply rely on a system to provide you with all your worldly goods, you will always end up being dissapointed?
You don't think perhaps, that you maybe have been blind, following the blind, and you are generalising about other people, other members of this forum and WC itself?

**You both make good points. KF is correct. Many in WCK, because they never fight (as part of their training), develop "application" from hearsay, that is from their "sifu" telling them to use the tools this way or that way, etc. And many times their "sifu" has never fought either! So these folks are developing all kinds of bad fighting habits. If they were fighting as part of their training (as they should), these would become obvious, and they would be recitfied.

**Andy is correct too, you can't judge WCK by some of its practitioners, or even the majority. To paraphrase the old lawyer joke, "99% of WCK people give the rest of us a bad name!".

AndyM

11-19-2004, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by t_niehoff

**Andy is correct too, you can't judge WCK by some of its practitioners, or even the majority. To paraphrase the old lawyer joke, "99% of WCK people give the rest of us a bad name!". [/B]

My point being that the same applies to Karate, TKD, Hapkido, MT, MMA....you name it.

What's the point in studying if you learn nothing by it?

I train with a really top notch WC guy.
99% of the students haven't fought a toilet roll.
That doesn't mean I can't get value from the classes.

t_niehoff

11-20-2004, 07:56 AM

AndyM wrote:

My point being that the same applies to Karate, TKD, Hapkido, MT, MMA....you name it.

**Certainly, there is much truth in saying that any individual is not the represenative of the entire fighting method. Nevertheless, I do think, and overwhelming evidence backs me up, that some *training methods* (or lack thereof) simply will not produce significant increases in fighting skills in its trainees. For example, if a boxer were not to spar as part of his training, he'd never develop into a good boxer. Or if a BJJ student were never to roll, he'd forever suck. So we are justified in evaluating training methods by looking to the results they produce. Thus it would be correct to say that some "lineage" of boxing that eschewed sparring would be "inferior" (in terms of producing results) than others that did spar.

What's the point in studying if you learn nothing by it?

**There is a huge difference between what it takes to learn something and what it takes to develop skill at something. One can learn boxing without ever stepping into the ring (the techniques, drills, strategies, etc.) -- boxing commentators are a prime example. Developing boxing skill has other demands.

I train with a really top notch WC guy.

**The funny thing is everyone *believes* their sifu is "a really top notch WC guy." Who cares? Your skill comes from your *training*, not from your sifu. Theoreticians and dogmatists see WCK as knowledge-based; fighters see WCK as skill-based.

99% of the students haven't fought a toilet roll.
That doesn't mean I can't get value from the classes.

**In my view, a great many WCK sifu's actually hurt their students more than they help them (in terms of producing results) -- because they are actually teaching and reinforcing poor fighting habits, uncritical thinking, reliance on theory and dogma, etc. If your concern is developing better fighting skills through WCK -- what I call results -- then it is easy to evaluate whether or not your training is producing satisfactory results -- simply by fighting (sparring, whatever you want to call it). If someone is not fighting as part of their training, then there is no way for them to genuinely evaluate their training, and no way to genuinely develop any significant fighting (WCK) skills.

AndyM

11-20-2004, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[**Certainly, there is much truth in saying that any individual is not the represenative of the entire fighting method. Nevertheless, I do think, and overwhelming evidence backs me up, that some *training methods* (or lack thereof) simply will not produce significant increases in fighting skills in its trainees.No arguement, but not really what I was getting at.

**There is a huge difference between what it takes to learn something and what it takes to develop skill at something. One can learn boxing without ever stepping into the ring (the techniques, drills, strategies, etc.) -- boxing commentators are a prime example. Developing boxing skill has other demands. Yup.

**The funny thing is everyone *believes* their sifu is "a really top notch WC guy."I dare say they do. I do!

Who cares? Your skill comes from your *training*, not from your sifu. Theoreticians and dogmatists see WCK as knowledge-based; fighters see WCK as skill-based.The knowledge and training methodology come from the Sifu.

**In my view, a great many WCK sifu's actually hurt their students more than they help them (in terms of producing results) -- because they are actually teaching and reinforcing poor fighting habits, uncritical thinking, reliance on theory and dogma, etc. If your concern is developing better fighting skills through WCK -- what I call results -- then it is easy to evaluate whether or not your training is producing satisfactory results -- simply by fighting (sparring, whatever you want to call it). If someone is not fighting as part of their training, then there is no way for them to genuinely evaluate their training, and no way to genuinely develop any significant fighting (WCK) skills. [/B] I agree, hence it's not my sole practice. I still see value in it though. ;)

t_niehoff

11-20-2004, 08:23 AM

AndyM wrote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who cares? Your skill comes from your *training*, not from your sifu. Theoreticians and dogmatists see WCK as knowledge-based; fighters see WCK as skill-based.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The knowledge and training methodology come from the Sifu.

**Yes, just as a knowledge of boxing's method and training methodology comes from a trainer -- but personal boxing skill comes from one's own training (and talent, drive, etc.). How do we judge the quality of a boxing trainer? Not by their boxing skill (they may be a great fighter but a poor trainer like Joe Frazier) but by whether they are able to help their trainees significantly increase their skills. And even if one has a great trainer, if the trainee doesn't do the *necessary* training, they won't get results. Some great boxers even became so without the benefit of a great trainer -- they trained themselves (got the fundamentals, fought, learned from their experience, modified their training, fought, etc.).