Kung Fu vs. [...]

[Gar Imagi]

Hey, I'm new to martial arts, so forgive me if I sound naive.

While doing research on the best martial art for me, I've scavenged around P2P programs and websites to find video on various martial arts vs. other martial arts...

And sadly... Way sadly... I've found that a lot of the videos of Kung Fu vs. [Karate, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Etc.], kung fu loses...

Now, distraught, because for the little stint I have had in martial arts, I have had a profound respect for Kung Fu as the precedence and the power behind all more modern martial arts, I asked some other folks who study Karate, Muay Thai, etc. (basically the newer martial arts), and most said that while Kung Fu is a great martial art, because of it's out-dated system and styles and long, slowly diluting line of teachers, it has become sort of the inbred martial art of the bunch. (Their words, not mine.)

Now I guess my real question is, do you have any opinion or proof that kung fu could stack up to the newer stuff like Karate, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Jeet Kune Do, etc...

And if so, do you have any videos of it? I hate seeing the kung fu competitors get their ass kicked so much! Jeez!

[SevenStar]

I'm a muay thai guy, but....


1. don't worry about what others say. find a good school and train there. The training methods are more important than the style.

2. if you are worried about the rep of kung fu, strive to change it. Once you become proficient, compete. hard. train with guys from other styles and learn from them. see how you are able to do against them.

3. If you aren't currently training anywhere, send a PM to oso - he's in NC and may know of some good schools in youre area.

[Gar Imagi]

Oh, no, no, no.

I'm not worried about the reputation of kung fu, kung fu earned it's reputation as one of the best, if not the best hard (I use this term loosely) style martial arts out there.

I know that people who go into kung fu have different reasons for doing so... Some to bring harmony to their mind and body, some for competition, some to avenge the death of their family by a pack of roaming ninjas... All sorts of reasons. The reason that has me in question is self-defense. Other martial arts like combat karate and tae kwan do seem to corner the self-defense aspect, and I'm wondering if kung fu could compete in self defense in an every day situation and vs. these newer and more battle-oriented martial arts?

[fa_jing]

TKD as commonly taught in the USA stinks for self defense, I think we all know that. But, it is a cool sport.

[cerebus]

LOL! Well, it has unfortunately become a cliche in the U.S. that Kung Fu guys aren't as good fighters as Karate, Muay Thai, etc. The primary reasons for this seem to be 1) many kung fu styles are more complex than the simpler, more straightforward arts you named (and therefore take longer to learn at a useable level), and 2) far too many kung fu schools don't have a progressive, systematized method of teaching freestyle sparring up to, and including, full-contact sparring.

The Chinese arts are no less inherently effective than other martial arts, you just have to train in a manner that will develop your ability to use your art when the sh!t hits the fan and your strong, determined opponent is trying to beat you senseless.

[Gar Imagi]

But most of the videos I watched WERE of Eastern full-contact sparring. Asian master contenders... And kung fu always seemed to lose!

[cerebus]

And I've seen Chinese full-contact teams beat the hell out of top Thai kickboxing teams. I guess you're just not watching the right videos.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Gar Iamgi, you came to a kungfu forum and asked them if they suck.

You're foolish if you think you'll get a "fair and balanced" answer here.

And if what you're hearing bothers you, why not just find a system that you think is superior? I would.

[Sim Koning]

The problem with many kung fu schools is that many practice nothing but forms and point sparring. Don't think most Karate or Tae Kwon Do schools are much better. Thai Boxing and BJJ have the advantage of being tested constantly in the ring. Kung Fu has just recently created a venue for full contact fighting which is San Shou or San Da. This sport still retains a chinese flavor by incorporating the 3 out of the 4 areas of fighting, which are kicking, punching, throwing and submission. Submission is not allowed unless its as NHB style match. San Shou is quickly becoming as dominant as muay thai in the ring and there have been many team fights between Chinese and Thai teams. In fact you can buy videos of it .http://www.mavideosrc.com/kunfusanshov2.html

From what I've seen, the chinese teams have completely domintated both japanese and korean teams in the past. There are many kung fu schools that now have organized san shou teams, you just have to look for them.

here are some clips of kung fu in the ring. http://www.boston-kickboxing.com/ksuperstar.htm
here is Cung Le's site
http://www.cungle.com/cungle/downloads.html
here is our school's site
http://chanskungfu.com/
and a clip of one of our instructurs (Duncan Duffin) fighting
http://chanskungfu.com/videos/danda.wmv

[Ultimatewingchun]

Remember that guy who made such a big splash in the martial arts world about 30-35 years ago? A little Chinese guy? Started out in a very modern (comparatively speaking) kung fu style? Wing Chun...or something? Only learned the basic principles, strategies, and techniques - but was very good at it? Could really fight. Impressed a lot of people. Used these principles as a guide when he started looking into...boxing...karate...fencing...judo...TKD...Mu ay Thai...etc???

Decided that the footwork of the kung fu he started with needed to be seriously updated...borrowed footwork from other more mobile styles - like boxing...took from here...took from there...and especially borrowed the training methods of some of the Western arts...became an innovator within oriental martial arts in terms of sparring with protective equipment...etc??? Renamed what he was doing Jeet June Do? And then really impressed a lot more people with his fighting skills.

Remember him?

Now there are to this day a few wing chun styles - particularly those that spring from the two men who taught Bruce Lee most of his wing chun...Willam Cheung and Wong Shun Leung...that use a much more fluid and mobile type of footwork - and a few other wing chun lineages experimenting along these lines as well.

I don't know much about what's going on within other kung fu styles (aside from wing chun) along these lines (mobility and up-to-date training and sparring methods)...so can't speak for them...but there is a lot of catching up to do I suspect.

And then there is crosstraining - especially with grappling styles...which brings us full circle right back to Bruce Lee.

Kung Fu - on the whole - is too conservative and lineage oriented for it's own good, imo. "If our ancestors did it this way - that should be good enough for us".

Blah, blah, blah.

That's the problem with a BIG part of the kung fu world.

[Palmer]

This kind of stuff gets repeated over and over but....

IMO

Whenever you have a "fighting art" that doesnt test itself enough with some sort of pressure testing/sparring then you get a situation where that person cant perform. In my experience the number of Kung Fu schools that spend the majority of time practicing pre arranged traditional form sequences vs some form of full contact sparring is very high. When that situation changes and you have a teaching that puts physical training and sparring higher on the list and has good fundamentals on how to make the art work realistically I believe the results they are looking for appear. If you look at the styles that people are mentioning as being more successful then CMA they for the most part are competition based systems or ones that have evolved into. So the driving factor for them is to produce results and it doesnt suprize me that they do. Does this mean that the mechanics and fundamentals they learn are more sound or better? In some cases maybe so but in all cases? I dont think so.... I've personally seen CLF guys get the best of Muay Thai guys and I believe its do too how they train.
Well just my 2 cents...

Palmer

[red5angel]

7* has some good advice. I'd add to that, that you need to decide what you're getting into it for, then weigh that with what's available, or what you want to make available to you in your area. Don't worry about who's winning or losing in a few videos you've found on the internet. Just keep it all in perspective. If you aren't training hard, you aren't going to be hard.

[Dark Knight]

If you aren't training hard, you aren't going to be hard.

I am a Black Belt in a couple styles. In 25+ years I have found that quote as true.

I have met crappy TKD, Karate, Ju-Jitsu fighters and I have met awesome ones. many times the videos you see are someone setting up someone else who cannot fight.

How the instructor teaches and how you train will make the difference.

Check out schools and go to one that has an instructor you like.

Watch how they train, if they are training in a way you dont like, dont go. Also after some time you may find you want something different and change.

There is no "One Best Style" we are all different and fight different, and many in the arts never use but train for the enjoyment.

Again, check out the schools, see if you like the instructor and chose from that.

[red5angel]

many times the videos you see are someone setting up someone else who cannot fight.


I'd go even ****her and say that the person who studies kungfu and get's destroyed because they think they have what ti takes but they don't. They do some forms work that makes them sweat. they spar from time to time, and probably "win" more in their school then lose. In the end, they find it takes some pretty extreme dedication to take someone who is that much more dedicated then you are.

[Ray Pina]

If you're talking about one style fighting VS another style you're already not talking self defense.

If you're talking sport, you're talking about two guys of the same relative size and weight .... you're already not talking self defence.

If you want "self defense," learn one or two moves from the "fence" position and carry mace, a knife or a gun. Or buy a big dog.

If you're interested in becoming a martial artists spend at least 4 or 5 months shopping around at different schools, see which fits your personality and then stay put for at least 18 months before you even consider shopping again.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Gar Iamgi, you came to a kungfu forum and asked them if they suck.

You're foolish if you think you'll get a "fair and balanced" answer here.

And if what you're hearing bothers you, why not just find a system that you think is superior? I would.

oh, what are we supposed to say? yes, kung-fu sucks. the video tape is always right.

we don't even know who was on these video clips that he saw.


Originally posted by Gar Imagi
But most of the videos I watched WERE of Eastern full-contact sparring. Asian master contenders... And kung fu always seemed to lose!



"Asian master contenders"? how do you know these guys were "master" of kung-fu on these video tape? who certified them? what's their fight records? what was on their resume that demonstrate they were master? did they have the word, "kung-fu master", tattooed on their foreheads? that might be one way of knowing if a guy is a kung-fu master.

if you train hard, you can fight. if you don't, better practice saying your prayers. I do that every morning.

[sihing]

I think fighting ability can be obtained from any MA, with hard work and consistent work and good instruction. Some MA are more effective in the end that's for sure, and then there is what the individual has to offer as well, there own uniqueness and attributes. I train in Wing Chun and this is the only MA I have practiced, and have been doing so now for some 16yrs. I find it is very effective and practical for self defense and such. I do not consider myself a natural fighter, or a good one for that matter, but I do have good skills at self defense and teaching. Allot nowadays are obsessed with how effective or good is the MA that they am practicing in combat. Well if you got a good TKD guy and a lousy MT guy, more than likely the TKD guy will win. It depends on how the individual looks at it, how much intensity they put into it, and how well they understand what the system they are learning is trying to teach them.

IMO WC is the most effective art out there, if learned correctly, taught correctly, and trained hard enough in the learning stages. When I do a introductory class for a prospect I tell them this then I say, that just because you learn Wing Chun doesn't mean you will be the deadliest fighter alive, that's not the point, but if you had a identical twin and you both trained in the MA, one learning WC and the other in another system, both training the same intensity and time, the WC man IMO will win a all out fight. Other MA, Kung-fu styles can do the same but IMO take longer to do this and require more physical attributes like speed, strength and stamina from the practitioner. My Sifu has been training in the MA, and in particular Kung-Fu styles for 40+yrs now, and before his Wing Chun training he became an instructor in Hung Gar and Woo Dip(Butterfly) systems of Kung-fu as well as the Chin-na applications of each system, as well as a Shotokan Karate Instructor(before his Kung Fu training). He used those styles(his interpretation of them) successfully in many combat situations, one with a Biker Gang that involved 9 and more opponents. He trained like a Mad Man, sometimes 14hrs a day for years at a time. When he learned the two systems of Wing Chun(Wong Shun Leung and William Cheung versions, the later in 7 months) he dropped teaching the others styles of Kung-fu that he previous trained/teached in, just due to the fact that it was that much more effective than the others for combat, in his opinion. I agree with him completely on this matter, and in my own experience over the last 16yrs I still haven't seen anything better.
But does this mean know one outside of the WC practitioner's knows how to fight? No. Every style and system will have exceptional people in them that are extremely dedicated to their art and system and are also naturally gifted in what they do( Bruce Lee is a prime example of this).

Kung-fu can work fine in combat, if you work the Kung-Fu..


James

[red5angel]

And if what you're hearing bothers you, why not just find a system that you think is superior? I would

curious. How does one define a "superior" art?



sihing has a hard on for WC but I would be careful. It's an effective self defense art, but it doesn't have all the tools you need to be well rounded, contrary to what the WC guys say. It's efficient, but not necesarily the best. The "best" is hard to define and changes with your goals.

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by red5angel
curious. How does one define a "superior" art?



sihing has a hard on for WC but I would be careful. It's an effective self defense art, but it doesn't have all the tools you need to be well rounded, contrary to what the WC guys say. It's efficient, but not necesarily the best. The "best" is hard to define and changes with your goals.

wow... that last sentance... you actually said something here red..


There's a first time for everyyyyythinggggg


seriously though... there are a lot of tma with the same prob. right now
I don't exactly see anyone from hapkido or aikido owning anyone right now either.

[sihing]

I agree that traditionally trained Wing Chun people are limited, trapping range and short punches, but fortunate for me my Sifu has experience in all the ranges of fighting. In the kwoon we train high kicks, low kicks, knives, sticks, swords/staff, fighting standing, sitting, kneeling, ground grappling, kicking range, punching range, trapping range, grappling range all using the WC system concepts and techniques.

I don't think I have to be careful, I think I have BEEN careful. The last thing I want to do is use the tools I have, and for me it takes allot to have to use it, so a simple insult or push won't start it for me. We all have to know our limits, but when push comes to shove what are you going to do against someone that may be better than you, lie down and cry? You will give it all you got when the situation calls for it and style is out the door, anything and everything will be used, and you may just overcome that obstacle that some think is insurmountable.


James

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

or you might just get the double leg!!!!!!111!1

0\/\/l\l3l)!111111!!1

LAWL!!1

[red5angel]

seriously though... there are a lot of tma with the same prob. right now

The only people I see owning anyone consistantly are the ones training hard and smart.

[Shaolinlueb]

i think kung fu is very lethal. for tournament fighting maybe not so. most kung fu moves were to take out and harm people. you cant really do that in tournaments and such. or when you put on a public display.

[Ray Pina]

No style is perfect. And every road has its traps.

For example, right now BJJ is king. But I feel in 10 years they may become overly specialized. They're drawing people in who want to grapple but they may not focus enough on the other ranges.

I'm not saying this is the case now. But look at TKD today and look at how it was even when I was a kid competing in the early 80s. The used to use their hands then, they used to keep them up, not down on their sides while they kept switching stances .... perhaps over specialized?

When it comes to grabbers, I'm already experiencing this a bit. For some reason they will not allow me to strike them once or twice and then begin. But they have no problem asking me to get on my back or knees, allow them to grab me and then begin .... they find it acceptable to twist my head, but I can't punch theirs.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
No style is perfect. And every road has its traps.

For example, right now BJJ is king. But I feel in 10 years they may become overly specialized.You are about five years behind the curve. BJJ has not been "king" for quite a while now.

Many BJJ practitioners understand that it is overspecialized and cross train in wrestling,judo, boxing, and/or Muay Thai.



Originally posted by EvolutionFist
When it comes to grabbers, I'm already experiencing this a bit. For some reason they will not allow me to strike them once or twice and then begin. But they have no problem asking me to get on my back or knees, allow them to grab me and then begin .... they find it acceptable to twist my head, but I can't punch theirs. Find some guys who compete in MMA or BJJ vale tude. They should be happy to add strikes into the game.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
i think kung fu is very lethal. for tournament fighting maybe not so. most kung fu moves were to take out and harm people. you cant really do that in tournaments and such. or when you put on a public display.

If you understand the principles though, that shouldn't matter...

[SifuAbel]

I agree, one should be able to mold to any rule set.

If anything, I sucked at point sparring simply because we tend to draw out hits in order to get in. So we didn't do much if any of that style fighting.

One instance on the rare occassion, a boxing brother of mine got points on him because he would grab what was a weak kick and plow the guy. But he didn't get the point because the leg he grabed "touched" him first.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
I think fighting ability can be obtained from any MA, with hard work and consistent work and good instruction.

agreed.


IMO WC is the most effective art out there, if learned correctly, taught correctly, and trained hard enough in the learning stages.

based on what? you've only trained on MA... what is your comparison based on? Which arts are you comparing it to?

When I do a introductory class for a prospect I tell them this then I say, that just because you learn Wing Chun doesn't mean you will be the deadliest fighter alive, that's not the point, but if you had a identical twin and you both trained in the MA, one learning WC and the other in another system, both training the same intensity and time, the WC man IMO will win a all out fight.

Once again, based on what? It's a good experiment to try though... take a thai boxer with a year of experience and a wc guy with a year of experience and let them spar.

Other MA, Kung-fu styles can do the same but IMO take longer to do this and require more physical attributes like speed, strength and stamina from the practitioner.

are you counting boxing, thai boxing, judo, grappling, etc in this statement? Why would you think they take longer?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

One instance on the rare occassion, a boxing brother of mine got points on him because he would grab what was a weak kick and plow the guy. But he didn't get the point because the leg he grabed "touched" him first.

I always hated that.

[Becca]

Originally posted by red5angel
The only people I see owning anyone consistantly are the ones training hard and smart.
Like this post. I have know a couple KF peeps who have gotten into multi-attacker situations. Some did fine, others got too wrapped up in doing the technique clean (which is the main goal in sparring). They ended up focusing on the best of the attackers, lost track of the worst, then cought a boot in the ear.:( The ones who did ok made a point of startling the attackers with somethnig very dangerous-looking then slipping away in the confusion (Which is what many TCMA schools consider The perfect outcome) Niether situation happens in the ring. There fore I would suggest causion in comparring Kung Fu to "the others" This would be to the effect similar to comparring apples from orange.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Becca
There fore I would suggest causion in comparring Kung Fu to "the others" This would be to the effect similar to comparring apples from orange.

Not really. If you understand the principles of what you are doing, it will work where ever you use it. someone recently posted an article about a 3 year thai boxer who defeated multiple opponents who broke into his house. There were weapons involved also. Does that happen in the ring? No. But, his training was effective and he understood what he was doing.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
I don't exactly see anyone from hapkido or aikido owning anyone right now either.

Every time I watch a perp get a joint lock slapped on him and his face hits the pavement I see someone getting owned on "COPS". There's a reason police aren't training Muay Thai and Kuh-roddy. They go for Aikido, cause when it comes to arresting someone and keeping the public from screaming "BRUTALITY!", ain't nothin' else will do.

[Becca]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Not really. If you understand the principles of what you are doing, it will work where ever you use it. someone recently posted an article about a 3 year thai boxer who defeated multiple opponents who broke into his house. There were weapons involved also. Does that happen in the ring? No. But, his training was effective and he understood what he was doing.
Yes, it will work if you understand it. The point being that many don't put enough time in to understand it. It doesn't take years to get enough Kick boxing to defend yourself. It does take that long to be proficient in CMA. Hence the apples and oranges metaphore.