Self-Defense Applications of Internal Martial Arts?

[Gar Imagi]

I'm new to martial arts in general, so please forgive me if I come off as naive...

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Stacking up against other martial arts, or even just in a regular fight against an untrained ****ed-off Joe, do internal martial arts have any self-defense applications?

And if not neccessarily, are there any martial arts that do, but carry the same harmonizing effect as internal martial arts?

Thanks.

[cerebus]

No. No martial arts have self defense applications. They're just for show. :p

[scotty1]

lol, before I started tai chi I asked on Emptyflower if tai chi had any punches!

:D

To answer your question yes the internal arts have applications, and good ones, but you need to find a teacher who knows them.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by Gar Imagi


And if not neccessarily, are there any martial arts that do, but carry the same harmonizing effect as internal martial arts?



Well, Aikido IS the "way of harmony", if that's what you're looking for. And yes, Chinese Martial arts such as Tai Chi, Hsing-i, and Pa Kua can be used in a fight. Your best bet is to seek out many schools, watch a class or two, ask specific questions of the teacher concerning your goals, and watch out for anybody who says "Our art is only used for health." or "My style is mostly a moving meditation." Chances are they're neither.

[Felipe Bido]

Yes, they have many martial applications. Most of them go beyond the self defense mentality, and fall into the 'martial' mentality.

The harmonizing effects are a byproduct of correct practice.

And scotty is correct. You have to find a good teacher who shows you the applications. Many times, what you see from the outsider's point of view is just a tiny part of a whole picture. For example, in Xingyi's Pi Quan, you see it and you could say "Hey, that's a palm to the head". but that's only 5% of what Pi Quan could really be.

Scotty...good one about the Taiji punches :D

[scotty1]

:D I know. I'm not ashamed! :cool:

The thing is if someone comes on EF or here and asks "Does tai chi have punches?" my initial reaction is like :rolleyes:, but it's really only now after 17 months that I'm getting a proper idea of how tai chi is applied.

And that changes frequently, as I train more...

And seems to be at odds with a lot of other taichi people...

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Look man if you're interested in self defense or learning how to fight then find the best class of any art (within reason - separate thread!) in your area, one you can attend regularly, and train there. What to look out for could be covered in a different thread.

if you're dead set on learning an IMA (Internal Martial Art) then by the sounds of it you're going to have to travel, and it's going to be a lot more difficult to know if you're getting the goods (fighting wise) unless it's a well-known 'name' teacher.

Go to emptyflower.com and check out the request a teacher section.

Keep us posted. But don't think you're going to learn anything from a book if you've never studied those arts before. At the very least you need a partner to learn to fight.

I'm just a newbie myself really, but that's my 2 pence.

[unixfudotnet]

Yes, everything in the forms has obvious and not-so-obvious applications. There are parts of forms that have things that are not obvious till you have an understanding of everything after years of practice :)

Also the room for error is much smaller in Taijiquan. It has to be exact. In hard styles, you can be a little off and still be ok. It also requires more patience as it is just a different school of thought and training. In hard styles, a punch if obviously a punch and always will be a punch, and can use it immediately if you choose, Taijiquan without sensitivity and proper development is empty (which can also be argued about hard styles as well, i suppose). Using your muscles is kinda frowned upon in Taijiquan, and has the opposite effect of helping you.

If you can find someone that has training in Taijiquan for many years (not 3 or 2), they can explain and show you things that make you realize that there is just so much more than the obvious, or what you think appears obvious :) It is really amazing.

[wiz cool c]

In my school you learn all the applications to the moves in the form. There is also push hands class and sparring class. If you do not go to these classes you will not be able to use your Kung Fu.

[shang wu]

taij has awsome power generation and apps. push hands helps train certen skills . gong li others ,form still others ,a full training practice must be done, form alone will not do it.

[scotty1]

"Taijiquan without sensitivity and proper development is empty (which can also be argued about hard styles as well, i suppose)"

But still difficult to deal with. It has lots of applications, and power.
I think 'hard' taijichaun is still an effective martial art, even if not fulfilling the ideals!

Someone muscling through their taijiquan may still be hard to handle if the style contains strength and conditioning methods.

"Using your muscles is kinda frowned upon in Taijiquan, and has the opposite effect of helping you."

What are you using if not your muscles?

[Hau Tien]

Originally posted by scotty1
What are you using if not your muscles?

Timing, structure, intent, speed, and bodyweight. Muscular contraction is a byproduct of correct "IMA" practice, not the initiator.

[scotty1]

So you're still using your muscles.

"Timing, structure, intent, speed, and bodyweight"

Your muscles move your body, what is initiating the above if not muscular contraction?

I'm not being awkward! I think sometimes we're on about the same thing but expressing it differently.:)

[bamboo_ leaf]

Think of transmitting force, and originating force.
When one talks of using muscles usually it refers to actions caused by direct muscles contraction to cause power.

When we talk of not using the muscles, the role of the muscles are reduced to only supporting the body not in direct power or force generation. for the most part there is no contraction at all to transmite a force.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I take the view that Taiji is supposed to be Yin and Yang in equal measure. You use whiichever is necessary at the given moment.

To find ultimate hardness you need to be capable of ultimate softness, otherwise you have tense strength which will not hold up under stress. I think a lot of people stop at the ultimate softness stage and never find the iron bar within cotton.

With regards to the 'dont use your muscles' argument, my take is that the internal arts work towards making the body move as naturally as possible. If one is moving naturally then minimal 'conflicting' muscle strength is used. It is possible then to derive power with far less effort than if fighting your own body for every movement. It's also the only way to find Peng energy - too much muscle tension removes the body's elasticity.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


I take the view that Taiji is supposed to be Yin and Yang in equal measure. Precisely.. Like owning a Porsche (Qi)and only driving on dirt and gravel roads (body).. the Qi needs a well maintained/trained body to fully express itself.. we cultivate our totality, body, mind and spirit.. it is as Kaitain said, "balance".. Is Taiji a valid Martial Art? absolutely! equally important, it is a valid way of living a balanced life.. it is a life-long journey of self-improvement and self-discovery.. and, for the few that train in its Martial Way, a spectacular self-defense..

Be well...

[scotty1]

"the muscles are reduced to only supporting the body not in direct power or force generation."

Doesn't your power originate in your legs?

[bamboo_ leaf]

You legs are the point of contact with the ground. They can compress and release but should have no tension in them. That is muscle tension as in pushing against an object.

Your head, and feet are 2 points with the dantain acting like a ball directed by the awareness of the mind. The body follows this.

Try it, push some one using your legs, then try it by just shifting your dantain allowing the momentum to travel out and though them reaching the person being pushed.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I take your point Leaf, but I think that it is more about mind intent than what happens physically.

Ask a beginner to turn their hand over (as in Lui) and they think they are moving their hand. What they're really doing is rotating their forearm around it's axis (the hand can't actually rotate itself) - the hand is merely stuck on the end of it. Once someone understands this, their movement becomes much quieter.

Although you're intent is moving from the dan tien, in pure physical terms the same muscles _have_ to be used to elicit the same movement as when someone moves from their legs. There are differences in the degree of tension used, and in my experience the final result of the movement is wildly different, but the same muscles are being used, albeit with different mental emphasis.

I'm not in anyway arguing against moving from the dan tien - it builds something that wont come from anything else. I'm just not sure I could define what that something is :) It feels really good though.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I take your point Leaf, but I think that it is more about mind intent than what happens physically.)


;) there are things that i cant express well in words, and maybe some things dont express well in words. yi, mind intent is one of them.

happy T-day

[scotty1]

I understand both your points, I would agree it's a difference in intent perhaps.

"You legs are the point of contact with the ground. They can compress and release but should have no tension in them."

Compression and releasing will produce tension. I can see how your ideas from your post would reduce that tension to a minimum though.