Boxers are petty internal fighters

[fiercest tiger]

I think that alot of boxers that are relaxed are more internal then most martial artist when it comes to fighting what do u guys think?

FT

[Lost Oath]

Question is how do you define "internal fighting" ?

[jon]

I study internal arts and...
I think your dead right, its something i also seem to tell people quite frequently.

Good western boxers are often very relaxed, have excerlent power and are very addaptable fighters.

Prince Nazeem would be a boxer who even my instructor points out as using a very internal method of fighting and generating power.

Some of the MMA fighters also use a type of power which has a lot in commen with the internals. Guys like Sefo, Crocrop and Fedor are all using much more than just there limbs when they hit are are using there full bodys to generate power. You also have lightweights like Pulver and Sudo who use very relaxed and subtle mechanics.

BJJ seems to use the a similar methodology on the floor as Taiji uses standing, basicaly stay relaxed, go with flow and always try to keep superior postion.




Seems to me though that a lot of people dance around a very basic fact of internal training. If you hope to stay relaxed under stress then you had better factor that into your training.

All the relaxed push hands and flower power mentalitys will likely not help you relax when someone is intent of doing you serious physical injury. You will also not be relaxed if you are thrown strait into sparring ( i know this first hand becouse many of my students who started sparring early are still tense under duress) without proper physical preperation and mental conditioning.


Staying relaxed in fighting is I feel much harder than most people like to pretend. It takes a lot to be able to shut off your ego and simply focuss on the task at hand, its something you always try and strive to improve at. I dont think this is something anyone just has or gets i think its something you constantly build upon.

[Tigrentera]

No. Totally disagree.

[One Finger Zen]

watch how muhammed ali is rooted when he throws a lot of his punches. my gongfu brother pointed out that one.

Totally agree with you mate

OFZ

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
No. Totally disagree.

because.....?

considering we were just talking about this on the other forum, I'd really like to hear your opinion.

[Yum Cha]

I'm still not sure what the difference between internal and external fighting is - nearly 30 years on now....

Relaxed? Partially, I think there's more to it than that though.

Rooted? Using the full body? Again, I think that's not the whole story, but a pre requisite...

Focus and precision? Deliberate executions, ability to read and feel an opponents intention? Partially?

How about, NOT surviving on pure agression, or striking with arm and fist only. We can all probably agree that NOT internal....

So, sure, some boxers, could be more internal, watching Ali v Bonoveno (sp?) or Liston you could easily see that's true. Probably any good fighter, regardless of style, exhibits some of these so called "internal" characteristics...

But, from what I've gathered from a number of the more well trained kickboxers and tournement guys, there's one thing missing...

Where do the fireballs of Chi come into it? After all, how can a boxer be internal without fireballs of Chi? I lit a f@rt once, do you think it might be something like that? Its source was certainly internal....

FT

You working at Centennial Park these days?

[Yum Cha]

On the flip side of this question,

Is there anything that is unquestionably NOT internal?

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
On the flip side of this question,

Is there anything that is unquestionably NOT internal?

Yum Cha, you brought up an interesting point...what really is the difference between internal and external fighting? Well done internal fighting and external fighting both use whole body movement. Both use positioning and attack structure. Both (amazingly) utilize bascially the same techniques...I think the destinction between the two is way overblown and used primarily by those who really don't understand either IMO.

[Sui]

no-one seems to be bothered to answer your quest,yum,so i will."not internal".wu shu,chti sao(wc)boxing,wrestling,karate,teakwondo,sparring etc.are NOT internal fighting.

[SevenStar]

now that you've answered, explain it. Why is boxing not internal? why is karate not internal? what about grappling/wrestling? what is it about them IYO that makes them not internal?

[Sui]

and if i don't,are you going to ban me? also its not internal fighting,must have right concept first(master-----ater).
its obviouse that you are a low level practitioner,that you demand i explain.
the explanation is quite simple to who it is so rude to demand at this early time.

[brothernumber9]

Sui
you are the low leveled know nothing practitioner who hides behind vague David Carradine-esque garbled statements, you never answer anyone directly on any topic.

Now, how did what I typed make you feel? you wanna respond and tell me off now I assume. I also assume that's how Sevenstar felt on your comment to him. Think about it.

By the way, I retract my above statements about you (sui). It was only used as an excercise (sp?) to illustrate your condescending tone.

[Sui]

well yes i can empathize,but how i feel is that no matter what anyones says i know what of my center and experience in learning to feel confident to admit from time to time that i'm wrong or what ever.
i believe in the upmost critisism,that of my teachers,and the people a have contact with.so on that note if thats what you see that i am low level then thats how you see it.(if 7star can't take the heat then i'm sure he does not look towards others to rebalcence his mistakes.there is only the learning,not the undestanding).David carradine is not a failure its just that many people are discusted with the association he has with the K.F realm,as you do too.
excersised well but it leaves me wanting more,your emotions to define whats right and wrong leaves you off balance B9.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sui
well yes i can empathize,but how i feel is that no matter what anyones says i know what of my center and experience in learning to feel confident to admit from time to time that i'm wrong or what ever.
i believe in the upmost critisism,that of my teachers,and the people a have contact with.so on that note if thats what you see that i am low level then thats how you see it.(if 7star can't take the heat then i'm sure he does not look towards others to rebalcence his mistakes.there is only the learning,not the undestanding).David carradine is not a failure its just that many people are discusted with the association he has with the K.F realm,as you do too.
excersised well but it leaves me wanting more,your emotions to define whats right and wrong leaves you off balance B9.

what you said doesn't bother me at all. heatis something I have no problem with. Now... why do you think a boxer can't be internal - that is, if you can answer it.

[Sui]

did i say a boxer cannot be internal?another mistake 7* still can't find the concept.

having the idea is both beyond you and me,however its not in the brain for us to figure out .either you know or you don't know,for me to explain(simply) will not satisfy your needs or demands.

[SevenStar]

so you're delineating between the art and the artist? as you said, boxing is not internal, but a boxer can be internal?

[Sui]

still contented with what we percieve to know.the strive for perfection leads the way,contentment leaves us stagnated.

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by SevenStar
because.....?

considering we were just talking about this on the other forum, I'd really like to hear your opinion.

Well where do I start....

Let me start by saying that I am a student of both internal and external methods of fighting. Notice I say "student" and not teacher. I may be a teacher someday but even when I am a teacher I will still be a student.

Futhermore, I am not selling anything or trying to recruit students. I'm not the type of person who believes everything he is told. I am, in general, a very skeptical person and I make my living a being a skeptic and a critical thinker.

With that out of the way. Let me make the following statement:

Until you have crossed hands with a high level internal practitioner you cannot know the difference between external and internal ways of fighting.

You cannot divine the difference simply by observation. You can't say Muhammed Ali "looks" internal because "internal" means inside where you cannot see it. By their very nature internal arts are "esoteric" meaning only the "initiated" can understand them and apply them.

The point of stating this is not to exclude people or make other people feel like there fighting art is not sufficient. Its just that the high level internal takes the body mechanics to an entirely different level. In addition to the physical aspects it takes a lot of mental discipline to achieve high level internal. You must dissolve "tensions" both within and without to truly be relaxed.

So how are internal arts physically different?

To use an analogy, high level internal makes your body like a huge water balloon (we are something like 90% water after all.) But its not quite that simple. In addition, it is like a water balloon that can alter the tension of its own skin. So in one instant your body can be like a plastic bag filled with water (low pressure) and in the next second it is a raquetball filled with water (high pressure).

When your body is like a plastic bag you absorb any incoming force. Your opponent cannot find your center because as soon as thinks he's found it, it changes.

When your body is like an inflated raquetball it is hard and if someone pushed on you they would spin the ball to the side and deflect the force.

So in internal arts you are constantly confusing your opponent. You can feel him but he can't feel you. You suddenly feel solid but as soon as he pushes against that solidness he realizes that it wasn't solid at all. The harder he pushes on one side of "the ball" the harder the other side comes flying at him.

I hope my analogy is making sense.

In so called external arts your body is more like a tether ball. Your spine is the pole and your arms are like ropes, your fists the ball.

But in addition you can change the tension, elasticity and length of the ropes.

You generate power by pushing from the ground.

This twists the "pole" the pole drives the "ropes."
You can generate more power by suddenly changing the length, elasticity and tension of the ropes.

If you start the rope long and loose and then stiffen and contract it as you twist the pole you can generate huge speed on the "balls."

Of course, there are over 300 styles of kung fu. I am simply comparing the two that I know.

I hope this generates some good convo.

Ciao




;)

[Sui]

not bad,not bad at all.see if yum can equate,little point on the coil of the pole.

[Yum Cha]

Sui -
My old friend, so glad to see you again. Say, you wouldn't have an apple or two for the big guy? I think he might be hungry. Tell me, can you make Chi Balls of fire? I can't seem to figure out how, without burning my underwear.

Sui, I'm still in the dark about this "internal" power stuff, but if you could do it, could you do it pouring tea? Making love? And therefore, doing just about anything? How deep does it reach into a persons being? Maybe I'm off track...but I'm not talking about "spiritualism". Or, maybe???

7 Star -
In Sui's post, I believe he said, "Chi Sau Wing Chun Boxing" not simply "Boxing".

Tigrentera -
I like your baloon anology - there is certainly a lot of value in the observation. But, I'd like to add that what makes a lot of people think internal strength is "weak" is the lack of brutal intent. The baloon covers physical characteristics well, but not the all important psychological aspect. Maybe people that can do this kind of stuff have a more balanced character, and people just don't ever get a taste of their "yang" side?

Hey Mate, have you got a trick for making "Chi balls of fire?" Everybody seems to know how to do this but me, and I'm getting really pizzed off!!!

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
not bad,not bad at all.see if yum can equate,little point on the coil of the pole.

Ahhhhh! A riddle? Little point on the coil of the pole - small enough for a wee nest where the Phoenix lives?

Goodness Gracious, great Chi balls of FIRE!

LOL!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tigrentera
Until you have crossed hands with a high level internal practitioner you cannot know the difference between external and internal ways of fighting.

I've crossed with internal guys - dunno what caliber they were as compared to other IMA guys though, and I've met Dr. Yang jwing ming, so I've at least seen it, if nothing else.

You cannot divine the difference simply by observation. You can't say Muhammed Ali "looks" internal because "internal" means inside where you cannot see it. By their very nature internal arts are "esoteric" meaning only the "initiated" can understand them and apply them.

I'll give you that, as I'm not an internal guy. There is an accomplished internal practitioner on this forum named shooter, whose taiji guys compete in local mma events. he has stated that judo guys use peng and other energies characteristic of internal arts.


The point of stating this is not to exclude people or make other people feel like there fighting art is not sufficient.

No worries there...

So how are internal arts physically different?

To use an analogy, high level internal makes your body like a huge water balloon (we are something like 90% water after all.) But its not quite that simple. In addition, it is like a water balloon that can alter the tension of its own skin. So in one instant your body can be like a plastic bag filled with water (low pressure) and in the next second it is a raquetball filled with water (high pressure).

When your body is like a plastic bag you absorb any incoming force. Your opponent cannot find your center because as soon as thinks he's found it, it changes.

When your body is like an inflated raquetball it is hard and if someone pushed on you they would spin the ball to the side and deflect the force.

So in internal arts you are constantly confusing your opponent. You can feel him but he can't feel you. You suddenly feel solid but as soon as he pushes against that solidness he realizes that it wasn't solid at all. The harder he pushes on one side of "the ball" the harder the other side comes flying at him.

Once again, I encourage you to roll with a high ranking bjj guy. This is no different from them...


I hope my analogy is making sense.

It was an excellent analogy.

In so called external arts your body is more like a tether ball. Your spine is the pole and your arms are like ropes, your fists the ball.

But in addition you can change the tension, elasticity and length of the ropes.

You generate power by pushing from the ground.

This twists the "pole" the pole drives the "ropes."
You can generate more power by suddenly changing the length, elasticity and tension of the ropes.

If you start the rope long and loose and then stiffen and contract it as you twist the pole you can generate huge speed on the "balls."

Of course, there are over 300 styles of kung fu. I am simply comparing the two that I know.

Sticking with a boxer, where do you see the internal quality? rooting? coiling? add the internal aspects you see to the external example you just gave.

[fiercest tiger]

Oh no, sui is back and the apples are out for the Donkey King. Hi Yum Cha things are well with me thanks! C.Park is all good im doing lots of meditation and internal work there on night shift,

My question is not that boxing is REALLY internal like the Chinese martial arts of taji etc but a good boxer is relaxed and when people are relaxed chi or energy flows well. They can K'O people with a jab and this shows that they have co-ordiation or luk hup as well, in ways.

In internal kung fu is to hit and not make them go backwards but to hurt the inside without much or no external force.

Yum Cha,

Some times the body shape and postures of our choosen style is too external and isnt really internal striking at all. The P/EYE ill hurt anyone so thats a bonus but still not internal enough for my liking! Im on a mission my friend see u all in a few EONS!;)

Jon,

Hows Ho sifu hows your bagua and taiji going?


ft

:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
They can K'O people with a jab and this shows that they have co-ordiation or luk hup as well, in ways.

I've done that in the ring before.

In internal kung fu is to hit and not make them go backwards but to hurt the inside without much or no external force.

I've seen good strikers who don't move a bag backward when they hit it - it just folds in half. Is this the same thing?


This is more along the lines of what I'm looking to have answered - what do you think separates an external guy from an internal guy in terms of power generation, movement, etc.?

[fiercest tiger]

Hi,

The difference is meditation and hei gung. Cultivating the chi is what makes u internal!

FT

[Sui]

hi yum yes long time but no time is where we live when contacted has already been established.
well in the dark you will stay(which isn't a bad place)poetry is where you'll find light amongst the grey.
internal,external power?lol

1."When your body is like a plastic bag you absorb any incoming force. Your opponent cannot find your center because as soon as thinks he's found it, it changes."

this is the clue about the point to what apple is there for you(coil)

2."In so called external arts your body is more like a tether ball. Your spine is the pole and your arms are like ropes, your fists the ball."

so how does this equate yum?yes they're only theolgy,however to lead to the so called fire balls you must feel the ying/yang balls,but there is something to lighting f@rts(more than you know)lol tigrentera's anology is that of a so called text theory but he does say "Until you have crossed hands with a high level internal practitioner you cannot know the difference between external and internal ways of fighting. " so the experience has been mentioned.

i would of explained much more simplar to tigrentera's but never the less not bad.

f.t you wrote boxers are pretty internal fighters,its the title.lol stop grasping at whats not really there.i am simply answering yums question

"Is there anything that is unquestionably NOT internal(fighting)?"

where no-one seemed to want to go there,as i trood carfully.so you and 7* can grasp and explain what you mean when you don't really need to.
"The difference is meditation and hei gung. Cultivating the chi is what makes u internal!"
is a fine example so how does this fit in to boxers are pretty internal fights?

anybody?jon?anybody?7*?anybody?f.t?anybody?

LOL

[Yum Cha]

Sui -
Coiling is very simple, the un-coiling is what takes too many too much time. And the re-coiling is the most misunderstood.

The other half is the half most forgotten.

7*
Ali's famous knockout (was it the second fight against Liston?) with the "invisible" jab? Pure perfection in pugilism.

Sorry, but I'm on deadline guys, I can't really stay and "play" today, see you next week.

[WanderingMonk]

I think the following is a succint contrast of Internal and external mechanics. so, if the boxer does it, then he is using internal mechanics. If he is not, then he is not.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33010

IMA the waist leads the hips for total body connection. Take any basic hand exercise and make the hips initiate movement. Later isolate the hips (don't move them) and move only with the waist. Then make the waist move the hips to move the body.

[Tigrentera]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
[B

IMA the waist leads the hips for total body connection. Take any basic hand exercise and make the hips initiate movement. Later isolate the hips (don't move them) and move only with the waist. Then make the waist move the hips to move the body. [/B]

The waist must move in coordination with the whole body, not separate from it. You see guys swinging there waists around in a see-saw type action, pointing there dan tien around, but that's not internal. That's actually the opposite of what you want, you want whole body connection. And then beyond that.....connection all the way through to the ground.

You can get "internal" in EMA's to some degree. But usually you are twisting up the spine (see my tetherball analogy) so that you are violating the 6 harmonies. Instead of twisting you should see smooth unbroken movement. There is twining yes, but not twisting. Twisting is twining that is taken to far as to misalign and therefore create tension.

If you are doing the motion correctly it should feel like you are doing nothing, because there is very little muscular tension. Like you are a big gummy bear.....:D

I'm not saying I'm at a high level with this yet...but I am starting to realize what is "internal" and what is "not internal." In other words, I'm starting to realize what is the path and what is not the path....I still have to walk it.

[phoenixdog]

western boxers are internal in punching.Take any CMA and put 16oz gloves on them and you work the focus mits. No power.Do the same with a 6 month amateur boxer,you'll feel the difference.You have to hit internally to KO with gloves.

[Buby]

I disagree. All you need a punch strong enough to snap the persons head back, so that the brain hits the skull hard enough and its lights out. Being hit internally doesn't even feel like a regular hit and is usually very subtle.

Take care,
Buby

[phoenixdog]

I can hit a persons head with a 2X4 and make the same thing happen..My point was that western boxers learn internal hitting right off the bat. NPI.

[Buby]

And my point is that they don't hit internaly. Its an external strike. You used the example that they can knock people out with gloves on and I'm saying that just cause you knock someone out with gloves doesn't make it an internal hit.

Also, what do you consider as internal hit?

Buby

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by Buby
And my point is that they don't hit internaly. Its an external strike. You used the example that they can knock people out with gloves on and I'm saying that just cause you knock someone out with gloves doesn't make it an internal hit.

Also, what do you consider as internal hit?

Buby

IMHO, boxing is pretty **** external. It's about as external as you can get. That's why they do so much external conditioning, ie running, lifting, pushups, bagwork, etc.

The technique of some boxers like Muhammed Ali might have ventured into the external side of kung fu because they were more relaxed in there striking. But none of them approached the "internalness" of what we classically think of as Internal Martial Arts.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun

The technique of some boxers like Muhammed Ali might have ventured into the external side of kung fu because they were more relaxed in there striking. But none of them approached the "internalness" of what we classically think of as Internal Martial Arts.

They ventured into the external side of boxing, not kung fu. that relaxation is not unique to cma. you are saying that none of them approach the "internalness" of cma, however other members of these forums on various threads (who do study internal styles) disagree with you. So, what exactly is this "internalness" and why can you all not agree on what it is or isn't?

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by SevenStar
They ventured into the external side of boxing, not kung fu. that relaxation is not unique to cma. you are saying that none of them approach the "internalness" of cma, however other members of these forums on various threads (who do study internal styles) disagree with you. So, what exactly is this "internalness" and why can you all not agree on what it is or isn't?

I explained it under my other handle Tigrentera.

Internal=making your body like a big "variable outer tension" gummy bear.

In order to strike internally you have to "bounce" your energy off the ground. Other wise it is still external. Structure is part of it but it still doesn't make it internal.

People can't agree on what internal is because there are people on this board of varying skill level.

Chen Xiaowang compared learning IMA's to walking up a spiral staircase. Depending on how far up you are in the spiral you are going to see things slightly differently. I'm not gonna say that those people aren't partially correct, its just that they don't see the bigger picture.

I don't know about other people but my lineage is about as good as you can get. My teacher's teacher Feng Zhiqiang learned directly from Chen Fake in Chen Taiji. He learned Xing Yi and Tong Bei and Shaolin before that it.

I have touched hands with Master Feng as well as my own teacher and I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference in body use.

If you don't believe it then seek out someone quaified in my Taiji lineage and feel the difference. It is immediately obvious.

[fiercest tiger]

What does an internal punch feel like? I have seen many boxing matches where a boxer dies from a punch to the head. A boxer is still punching like a martial artist and boxing is also classed as a martial art in my books, Just no legs!

People get there ribs broken off a body rip punch also, thats pretty good punching skill to break the ribs using gloves.

Anyway what is an internal punch/strike?

FT

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

I think what you guys fail to realize is that saying a punch is internal doesn't necessarily = more powerful.

It simply means that is executed using a different way of moving.

The reason is that if you punch externally is sets your momentum up to be used against you.

If you punch internally then everything remains balanced and your momentum is negligible.

[denali]

The simple truth is that if you understand internal, then you can make any movement internal.

If you don't even understand this, then you are not qualified to say anything is internal or external simply based on outward appearance.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
What does an internal punch feel like?
FT

Well I've been hit by a Xing Yi guy as well as a (very softly) by my Taiji teacher. Oddly, it feels cold and penetrating. Like it is a steel needle going through part of your body rather than a battering ram that knocks your whole body back.

The force seems to be more concentrated in a single place rather than dispersed over a larger area.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
I think what you guys fail to realize is that saying a punch is internal doesn't necessarily = more powerful.

It simply means that is executed using a different way of moving.

This I understand... to an extent. I know mechanics are different, such as taiji's coiling, but from my limited knowledge of coiling, I'd say external guys utilize it also, albeit not quite to the same extent.

The reason is that if you punch externally is sets your momentum up to be used against you.

If you punch internally then everything remains balanced and your momentum is negligible.

this I do not understand. Can you clarify?

[Yum Cha]

Its always difficult to talk about physical actions, because, you can never be totally sure you are talking about the same thing, however, hand to hand, face to face, you can easily convey the information.

The issue of remaining balanced and not succumbing to momentum is an interesting one.

I find a lot of westerners throw their shoulder into a punch. Throw the shoulder, drive through with the arm. The fist travels from point a to point b, however often (not always) the hips travel from point a to point a-and-a-half.

Think along the lines of fist moving from point a to b, and hips moving from point a to b. The penetration of the punch is the same, a to b, but the complete body is behind it. And if that complete body is a bit larger, so is the additional energy. Weight as a component of final issued energy.

I don't think "coiling" works for me as a term. I understand coiling, but its just the beginning, and its a telegraph. To me, its like a cartoon cell. One frame is perfectly balanced potential energy. The next is perfectly balanced issued force. Every state contains both the balanced expended force, and the balanced potential force. It has to be a full body thing, not just a few elements. Footwork is critical, and often unnoticed or subtle. The more you can coordinate your full body, the less any single element has to carry the responsibility for delivering the power. Speed increases, relaxation under stress becomes easier.

But, internal, external? I still don't know what that means..

I think its just an arbitrary label for something that takes lots of practice and control.

Holding the power inside your muscles, or gathering it up and injecting it into your target. Speed, focus, intent.

[X-Warrior]

I have studied both 'internal' and 'external' traditional arts. I agree, many of you understand the difference between these styles but I see some confusions in some of the messages. Let me explain it from my experiences, from my point of view.

With external arts you mainly rely on the use and strenght of your muscles and bones. To develop this kind of power one does a great deal of 'power trainings' such as push ups, sit ups, running, use of weight training and other physical and aerobic excercises that strenghten the bones and muscles. The damaging effects from this kind of power is clearly visible on the body: open wounds, bleeding, bruses, broken body parts. External martial artists are usually muscular, and visibly strong.

Internal arts develop internal power which is the use of the body as an entire - not to be confused with the Chi. The energy starts at the rooted feet and each body part adds its own strenght to it as it transfers it to the next. As the energy is getting closer to the delivering part, it gets stronger and stronger, each body part adds its own streght to the energy. It is kind of like a chain reaction in the body. The use of this kind of power is not as visible as the external power, the opponent receiving the punch will be damaged internally, usually some of the organs: stomach, hearth, lungs, arteries or could be bones. Masters of internal arts often skinny and weak looking but this look is deceiving.

It is not the developement but the use Chi that divides these two styles from one another. External arts develop and use the Chi equally but to strenghten the muscles and bones while the internal arts use it to increase the powers that are added with each part. There is no clear line between internal and external arts for they both use - and must use - a bit of the other. They both must use the other somewhat in order to function, just like neither ying nor yang will ever exist by themselves at any given time. Learn both styles and use the one that is useful at the given situation.

How can I best compare these two powers? So far the best explanation I read about this was the use of a bat compared with a whip. The bat will damage the body on the surface more visibly while the whip, painful as the bat is but only leaves a small mark on the body.

X-Warrior

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by X-Warrior
The use of this kind of power is not as visible as the external power, the opponent receiving the punch will be damaged internally, usually some of the organs: stomach, hearth, lungs, arteries or could be bones. Masters of internal arts often skinny and weak looking but this look is deceiving.

X-Warrior

Okay not to pick on you, but this sounds like something you were told...Have you experienced either causing or recieving this inernal damage yourself? I'v known some really good internal practitioners that could kick my butt. For every one I've met that's got that ability, there's 10 who look weak, are weak, and have no ability to land a strike on someone under pressure with any amount of force.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

As the energy is getting closer to the delivering part, it gets stronger and stronger, each body part adds its own streght to the energy. It is kind of like a chain reaction in the body. The use of this kind of power is not as visible as the external power, the opponent receiving the punch will be damaged internally, usually some of the organs: stomach, hearth, lungs, arteries or could be bones. Masters of internal arts often skinny and weak looking but this look is deceiving.


So far the best explanation I read about this was the use of a bat compared with a whip. The bat will damage the body on the surface more visibly while the whip, painful as the bat is but only leaves a small mark on the body.

Whipping power or "chain" power can be found in external as well as internal martial arts. IMO that is not the difference.

The difference is that in IMA's there is an expansive and contractive quality that you don't find in EMA's.

What I mean is expansive and contractive in all directions.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

[b/] Ai Lek wrote:The reason is that if you punch externally is sets your momentum up to be used against you.

If you punch internally then everything remains balanced and your momentum is negligible. [b]

Sevenstar wrote:

this I do not understand. Can you clarify?


Yes, think about a hypothetical perfectly spherical balloon. Whether it is blown up or it is deflated the center of mass remains in the same place. Right?

It balances itself out.

If you push down on the balloon from the top, where is the center of mass now? Same place.

If you push on the balloon from the sides the center of mass stays in the same place.

Now let's take a balloon that is slightly uneven. Let's say it is stiff on one side, making it a little top heavy. Now when you push on the balloon it picks up momentum, it will roll foward and backward due to its own inertia.

That is similar to the differences between internal and external.

One of the favorite tricks of my IMA teacher is to come in to your space very small then he "blows himself up" ie he crowds out all of your space.

But he is still perfectly on balance. If you were not there he would look like he was doing a form.

He is not relying on his momentum to knock you down, rather, he is expanding in all directions to crowd you out.

If he does it suddenly and violently then you will feel it as a strike. If he does it slowly then he will push you off balance.

[X-Warrior]

Siu, no this has not been told me, I have experienced everything I have written down here. I studied both type of arts for several years, even have sparring experiences in both (on amature level) and have met many other masters of these styles from other schools. Everything I have written down is my pure personal experience. Yes I have also met masters who could do and beyond what they were saying and those whose mouth were larger than their knowledge. I have had a 'master' of an internal style hit me, he wanted to demonstrate his 'fierce' internal power and I have truely felt nothing but a mild tossing. He even tried twice with no success.

-X-

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by X-Warrior
Siu, no this has not been told me, I have experienced everything I have written down here. I studied both type of arts for several years, even have sparring experiences in both (on amature level) and have met many other masters of these styles from other schools. Everything I have written down is my pure personal experience. Yes I have also met masters who could do and beyond what they were saying and those whose mouth were larger than their knowledge. I have had a 'master' of an internal style hit me, he wanted to demonstrate his 'fierce' internal power and I have truely felt nothing but a mild tossing. He even tried twice with no success.

-X-

fair enough...:)

[mantiskilla]

much like the Nike commercials of old," just do it".
________
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[X-Warrior]

You got that right MantisKilla, show it or best to stay quiet.