Red Plum Blossom meaning in wc?

[cha kuen]

What's the meaning of the plum blossom in wc?

[Jeff Bussey]

Don't really know the meaning, but I've heard it's supposed to be the shape of the tip of the pole when you do bui kwan.

J

[Vajramusti]

This the kind of question where yellowpikachu is a superb source of information.

The five petalled plum blossom has many rich layers of meaning.
Ng Mui.
A flower for all seasons- survives hardships- temperature, ground.
Five elements synthesis- five petals connected to one center.
Mother of several styles-many originating in the south specially Fukien- not just wincg chun. Plum blossom footwork.
Blood red color is used in much Chinese symbolism.
Red plum blossom also a source of identity in the southern rebellions.
PRC wanted to use the plum blossom as the national flower- Taiwan beat them to it.

[Phil Redmond]

Please go to the bottom of this page.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp
Most of the WC lineages I studied use the plum flower pattern in their palm strikes.
Phil

[PaulH]

All bases covered, Joy! It is indeed a good symbol of WC emphasizing more on the feminine aspects. It reminds me of calm, firm, and persevering strength in face of harsh severity. When we gaze on the small bright flower, what do we see? The fragile, fresh unfolding of its petals budding a new live or the dawn of a slow death? =)

[sihing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Please go to the bottom of this page.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp
Most of the WC lineages I studied use the plum flower pattern in their palm strikes.
Phil

Good information Phil, well explained and great pictures to follow it on your website.

James

[couch]

"Some Wing Chun styles drag the foot when advancing. Dragging the foot is like driving a car with the emergency brake on. Plus, it would be impossible to drag your foot while fighting on the 'Mui Fa Jong'. "

Hey Phil, this was taken from your site. It's interesting and I would like to comment on it openly.

Everything you say is right. It would be impossible to fight if I were to drag my feet while fighting, but I feel that the reason I drag my foot and push it hard into the ground while stepping is a training exercise. Same reason I sit in the YJKYM stance.

I'm not going to follow someone around in a street fight while dragging my heel is right. But that power/springyness I've developed from pushing those feet into the ground gives me that opportunity to move my legs quickly....again, giving me a springyness to my step. I know that I won't be fighting someone in the goat-clamped stance...heck I'll probably be standing up for the first bit of it.

The only stance I see myself using is the back horse when I've closed in passed the elbows, etc.

Just wanted to clarify why I drag my feet. :)

Pecae,
Couch

[wing nut]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Please go to the bottom of this page.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp
Most of the WC lineages I studied use the plum flower pattern in their palm strikes.
Phil

Hey Phil,
That just gave me an idea on what I can do with some of the extra space in my backyard.

[sihing]

I think when it comes to footwork(movement) then practicing something that will not be used will be somewhat of a waste of time. The YJKYM stance practiced in SLT is yes a practice stance but it is the core of the other stances used, at least in the WC I practice, so this is an important aspect of the overall picture. Mobilitiy & Stability have to be present at all times to deliver the tools effectively.

James

[Vajramusti]

Thanks Paul H. Not everyone is interested in the semiotics of a subject-but I enjoy the full continuum of the art- or atleast tinkering with it.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by couch
"Some Wing Chun styles drag the foot when advancing. Dragging the foot is like driving a car with the emergency brake on. Plus, it would be impossible to drag your foot while fighting on the 'Mui Fa Jong'. "

Hey Phil, this was taken from your site. It's interesting and I would like to comment on it openly.

Everything you say is right. It would be impossible to fight if I were to drag my feet while fighting, but I feel that the reason I drag my foot and push it hard into the ground while stepping is a training exercise. Same reason I sit in the YJKYM stance.

I'm not going to follow someone around in a street fight while dragging my heel is right. But that power/springyness I've developed from pushing those feet into the ground gives me that opportunity to move my legs quickly....again, giving me a springyness to my step. I know that I won't be fighting someone in the goat-clamped stance...heck I'll probably be standing up for the first bit of it.

The only stance I see myself using is the back horse when I've closed in passed the elbows, etc.

Just wanted to clarify why I drag my feet. :)

Pecae,
Couch

I fully understand where you're coming from. I dragged my rear foot for 13 years and even taught that way until 1983. Then I learned a different approach that worked better for me personally. I always say it's what works for the indivdual. The world would be boring if we all that the same.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by couch
"Some Wing Chun styles drag the foot when advancing. Dragging the foot is like driving a car with the emergency brake on. Plus, it would be impossible to drag your foot while fighting on the 'Mui Fa Jong'. ". . . . . . . . .
Couch

Couch, I've just emailed our webmaster to re-word the above statement on my site. It seemed a little divisive to me and WC doesn't need anymore of that. . .:).
I'm going with this instead.
"I previously learned to drag the rear foot when advancing. I found it similar to driving a car with the emergency brake on. Also, in some Mui Fa Jong patterns the poles were at varying heights so it would be impossible to drag your foot while fighting and having to step from pole to pole."
Phil

[couch]

Thanks Phil.

I know that you're not some style/lineage-bashing person. :)

No worries. And this is very true that if we all didn't have preferences about how we do things...this world would be boring.

I didn't know that you were a foot dragger for 13 years! That's amazing. No wonder you can see the other side of things so clearly.

I was in modified TWC for a couple of years...so the way I understand TWC might be different than the way you've come to know it from William Cheung. It's cool to see the world from different perspectives.

Sincerely,
Couch

[couch]

Originally posted by sihing
I think when it comes to footwork(movement) then practicing something that will not be used will be somewhat of a waste of time. The YJKYM stance practiced in SLT is yes a practice stance but it is the core of the other stances used, at least in the WC I practice, so this is an important aspect of the overall picture. Mobilitiy & Stability have to be present at all times to deliver the tools effectively.

James

I feel you've contradicted yourself. You said that one shouldn't practise something that will not be used. Why sit in the YJKYM stance? You said it's a practise stance and the core for all other stances. Agreed.

Well, me dragging my foot is the core for all movement around my opponent. It also teaches me to find my balance in the back horse and to sink into my back leg, building strength in the process. I don't feel this is a waste of time at all. Just like sitting around in a goat-clamp stance isn't a waste of my time. It's just a vehicle to get where Wing Chun wants you to go. :)

Sincerely,
Couch

[sihing]

No contradictions here couch. Will my YJKYM stance be formed while I use it in fighting, YES. You said that, quote couch "It would be impossible to fight if I were to drag my feet while fighting, but I feel that the reason I drag my foot and push it hard into the ground while stepping is a training exercise". I use my YJKYM stance all the time in training and if really fighting, you use dragging the feet while training but find it impossible to use while fighting, so there is the contradiction, the comparison to the SLT training stance is not a good one. A better one would be the hand positions and uses of them in the Single/Double arm chi-sao methods of most WC practitioners. I always tell the students, for example when deflecting the inside Tan sao-->palm strike in Single arm/Double arm chi-sao, using a Jut sao, is just for the purpose of the drill and that you would never apply it this way literally in a real situation as movement would have to be applied with the actual footwork as well as other complimentary hand movements as well.

Also, Phil, if someone in your class was dragging their feet/foot, would you let them continue or correct them? If you correct them then you believe in one method being more effective than the other, rather than you just preferring it yourself for yourself. I don't believe there is anything wrong with stating something as a fact or more effective, as long as "IMO" is stated along with it.

Not looking to start something here either just stating some opinions on training methods and ideologies.

James

[Phil Redmond]

James wrote:
>>Also, Phil, if someone in your class was dragging their feet/foot, would you let them continue or correct them? If you correct them then you believe in one method being more effective than the other, rather than you just preferring it yourself for yourself. I don't believe there is anything wrong with stating something as a fact or more effective, as long as "IMO" is stated along with it.<<

In fact I have a student of Chung Kwok Chow that is training with me until his job call him back to NYC. He drags his foot. All I tell him is to try our method but to do as his Sifu teaches when he gets back. He's trained WC for 4 years. I would never disrespect him or his Sifu by saying my way is best.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by couch
Thanks Phil.

I know that you're not some style/lineage-bashing person. :)

No worries. And this is very true that if we all didn't have preferences about how we do things...this world would be boring.

I didn't know that you were a foot dragger for 13 years! That's amazing. No wonder you can see the other side of things so clearly.

I was in modified TWC for a couple of years...so the way I understand TWC might be different than the way you've come to know it from William Cheung. It's cool to see the world from different perspectives.

Sincerely,
Couch
Yup Couch, I trained with Chung Kwok Chow, Duncan Leung, Alan Lee ( I still remember his palm strikes to my chest), Lee Moy Shan, Alan Lamb (I was his assistant when he first moved to NY from Manchester England), Henry Leung (I was one of his first students). I even studied a mainland WC system at the old Five Tigers school in NY. Some say that it might have been Pam Nam WC. I've been around the WC block. When I fought full contact I was in a lineage other than TWC. So I know that different lineages are effective.
Phil

[sihing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
>>In fact I have a student of Chung Kwok Chow that is training with me until his job call him back to NYC. He drags his foot. All I tell him is to try our method but to do as his Sifu teaches when he gets back. He's trained WC for 4 years. I would never disrespect him or his Sifu by saying my way is best.
Phil

That's a different situation where someone is training from another Sifu or lineage, and needs a place to practice temporarily. I too would do the same as you Phil, and ask him to empty his cup and try something different. It's not about proving my way or yours is best, but about being truthful about what you know as truth in WC. He can tell me why he does what he does and I do the same, it's a polite discussion and debate. If he decides to switch over fine, if not that's fine too, since he isn't a full fledged student learning your system and just training there temporarily it doesn't really matter. If I was in that situation and was in another city and training in a different WC system, I would first talk it over with the Sifu of that school and maybe workout a program where I could Chi-sao with others and practice some combat applications/spar and some dummy work too, but I wouldn't participate in the class as a student. If I got curious about the stuff they were doing I would ask about it, but at this stage of the game I've seen most of the WC out there. Not that I know it all, I have no problem working out with others and experiencing their system first hand.



James

[Phil Redmond]

I get your point James. I do give my students senarios like how would you drag you foot if you were fighting in a field with uneven terrain or in a parking lot with gravel or even on a plush carpet. I learned the carpet thing whne I performed my old CK form during a 1983 seminar at UCLA. I couldn't shift or drag on that "plush" carpet.
Phil

[reneritchie]

Like many such things, it transcends WCK and is an important symbol in Chinese culture in general, often eulogized in poetry, and used as a source of inspiration for people and the nation.

[couch]

Originally posted by sihing
I use my YJKYM stance all the time in training and if really fighting, you use dragging the feet while training but find it impossible to use while fighting, so there is the contradiction, the comparison to the SLT training stance is not a good one.

James

I'm sorry, bro...I think I need to clarify a bit. It's not impossible to fight while dragging my foot. After I've gained the position of getting passed the elbows and pinned my opponents arms, I will sink into the back horse and use my strikes to disrupt the energy of my opponent. As my opponent moves back, I will stick with them, sinking in my back horse and dragging my foot/keeping tension in my stance.

The YJKYM stance is also building strength for the side horse and the back horse. Even the golden rooster stance allows you to grip the floor better, building adductor strength. I think everything has a purpose.

I know it's a matter of perspective, especially if you start to talk about moving along gravel, etc. But I believe in my Wing Chun to work in any situation.

Peace,
Couch

[sihing]

Originally posted by couch
"Some Wing Chun styles drag the foot when advancing. Dragging the foot is like driving a car with the emergency brake on. Plus, it would be impossible to drag your foot while fighting on the 'Mui Fa Jong'. "

Hey Phil, this was taken from your site. It's interesting and I would like to comment on it openly.

Everything you say is right. It would be impossible to fight if I were to drag my feet while fighting, but I feel that the reason I drag my foot and push it hard into the ground while stepping is a training exercise. Same reason I sit in the YJKYM stance.

I'm not going to follow someone around in a street fight while dragging my heel is right. But that power/springyness I've developed from pushing those feet into the ground gives me that opportunity to move my legs quickly....again, giving me a springyness to my step. I know that I won't be fighting someone in the goat-clamped stance...heck I'll probably be standing up for the first bit of it.

The only stance I see myself using is the back horse when I've closed in passed the elbows, etc.

Just wanted to clarify why I drag my feet. :)

Pecae,
Couch

Just using your own quote. I don't think either that it is impossible to fight while dragging your feet/foot, I just don't think it is very effective, same with the back horse stance, with the weight on the back foot you have a harder time trailing and adjusting positions, but this is the difference in the many varied WC systems that we have today, so to each their own. Its okay to have different opinions on what works and what doesn't, as long as it isn't personal.

James