Just got PONG LAI'ed!!!!!

[tanglang69]

Hello Everyone,

I just got back from Nashville. I went over there to start my Pong Lai training with Yu Shan. That man has hard arms (conditioning drills he taught me) and he says his sifu's arms are harder, man.

I have been involved in CMA for only 20 years (13 doing Wah Lum). I always knew in my heart that there was more to kung fu (NPM) than just forms. Where are the applications to the stuff in the forms? Don't want to beat a dead horse, but in WL in it was always go figure it out. My ex-sifu tried his best to figure it out and explain it to us. But I always felt that there was more to it.

Alas I found this Pong Lai on this forum and it peaked my interest. Did some research and talked to said people.

These people know there s h i t. I was impressed. He showed me a couple of short forms and taught me the ling side to each one. Their conditioning drills are great. All I have for them is praise.

All you wah lum'ers out there, knowing a bunch of forms is great if that is what you want. But do you know the applications to it. Not the ones you went and figured it out by yourselves but the actual ling side.

In short, I have seen the light. I have found the system that, if god granting, I will practice for a very long time.

I have been PONG LAI'ed!!!!!!!!

tanglang69
oved zamora :D

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Not every style has the ling side to their sets. To the best of my knowledge Wah Lum falls into the group without ling. There are pros and cons to that type of training as there is in anything you do. I personally think it's a plus to have them but not a neccessity. Many styles have flourished and put out great fighters without them.

It's good to hear that you are getting some insight into things that have confused you over the years. I'm not trying to take anything away from Pong Lai. They definitely have some good stuff so I'm sure you'll learn a lot.

"But do you know the applications to it. Not the ones you went and figured it out by yourselves but the actual ling side."

Can you tell me why the ling side apps are better than others (either taught or discovered)? Just curious.

Another pet peeve of mine is the claims against 'made up' applications. If you show me a move and I find a use for it and can apply it why is it 'wrong'?

[Oso]

Welcome!!!

yu shan is a hard little *******, ain't he? Wait till he lays a shin into you.

and, yea, Pong Lai (Shifu Scolaro) is harder still.



I like knowing the ling side because it

A - is easier to teach basic application with it
B - is good conditioning, body hardening as well as cardio
C - shows basic application for that particular system

but, it's not the end of the road ;) for learning all there is to a form.

I think Tainan breaks this down in one of his articles in MQ.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Good reasons for knowing the ling side (if your style has one). Unfortunately I don't get MQ so I don't have access to the information that you have.

To play Devil's Advocate I would ask you what style the ling side is playing?

The reason I ask is that I believe each style was developed to deal with fighters of other styles as well as common fighting techniques of the day. If the ling side is playing Mantis then your 2-man set is very one sided. I believe a true ling side would incorporate moves from other styles since that is the original intent of the moves.

So, as Devil's Advocate, how does fighting against Mantis teach you to fight against Wing Chun, Hung Gar, CLF, etc.?

BTW, in creating the ling side to WL First Form I used moves from Yin Chin, Wu Shu, Wah Lum and generic Karate. That's my way of illustrating how WL deals with other styles.

[shirkers1]

hua lin

I would like to kind of address the last post you just put up.


"So, as Devil's Advocate, how does fighting against Mantis teach you to fight against Wing Chun, Hung Gar, CLF, etc.?"

It doesn't matter what style you are facing. There is only straight line and hook line attacks, applied to upper, middle and lower level attacks.

No matter what style you are facing you will be attacked with a tactic along those lines. Whether it's a kick or punch. So you should apply your training to this thinking not in what style you are facing. That way your body and mind react to a situation rather than a the mindset of facing an opponent such as karate, clf, etc.

Now that doesn't mean that having insight to what these styles specialize in won't help in the overall scheme of things. But when it comes to individual tactics of a certain style you should be thinking of the lines of attack instead of the style itself. :) Hope this makes sense.

mark

[Oso]

It doesn't matter what style you are facing. There is only straight line and hook line attacks, applied to upper, middle and lower level attacks.

nice point. agreed.

HL, in the case of Pong Lai the initial sets are tan tui, eagle claw and some baji.

Given that the roots of NPM are in 17 other styles, I think that there is enough variety within the NPM style to be able to effectively train to handle other styles.

But, as I said, ling should, imho, just be looked at as a beginning to learning applications from sets.

then of course, you need to fight and, as I've ranted about before, fight against as many different types of people as you can.


Good reasons for knowing the ling side (if your style has one). Unfortunately I don't get MQ so I don't have access to the information that you have.

ok, I'll try to pull that issue and give a synopsis. It was basically a 4 step method to learn how to apply application of sets and ling was either step 1 or 2. I think. I'm very much paraphrasing from memory here.


BTW, in creating the ling side to WL First Form I used moves from Yin Chin, Wu Shu, Wah Lum and generic Karate. That's my way of illustrating how WL deals with other styles.

imo (again) if I had the time I would try to create other lings in an attempt to use the same movements to different affect. so, I personally think that's great.

The last system I studied didn't have ling sides. What we did was have a required number of applications worked out for each move of every form. Usually we were taught a basic sort of technique and probably a couple of others then had to look at developing another 1 or 2 on our own.

[sayloc]

oso

Could you tell me what tan tui and eagle calw forms you teach in the beginning? When do you introduce the core mantis techniques?

Do most of the mantis teachers teach the more fundamental sets before the mantis sets? I think this is how the chin woo schools do it.

Thanks

[Oso]

Tan Tui roads 1 - 5 taught separately as line drills and with ling side

A set called 8 Step Continuous Punching -- Tainan produced an excellent tape on it w/ ling, 2 man drills and single step apps.

then Chuji Chuen, a set I've been told by Tainan that has Eagle Claw, Mantis and Baji in it though I'm still picking through it to try and figure out exactly what is what.

Bung Bu is after that and the rest is mantis.

[18elders]

glad you enjoyed training with yushan. Not bad for an old man !!
Watch out for his sweeps also.

the thing about applications is not just to know what this move is or that move is. I think, the most important thing is how you are taught to execute the movement. proper movement and intent, that is where people miss out.
I have seen lots of people do gou lou tsai and done it with many people but the only one that scares the **** out of me doing it with is my shrfu. why? because the way he was taught to execute the technique.
That is where you need a good teacher and good lineage, execution, little body angles, proper footwork. etc.
Every great athlete has a great coach training them, if they don't get the results they want out of their coach they fire them and get a new one to reach the level they want to win.
It is not just in the applications but in all your kung fu training, you need someone with the knowledge to train you properly.

[sayloc]

oso

Is the 8 step continuos punching tape the real form or an altered version?

How do you get one?

Thanks

[yu shan]

It was nice to have Oved up to sample a taste of what we do. He was a trooper and was OK fine with the basics we did. I look forward to training with him in the future.

I have to agree with 18 Elders. There is something to be said about learning Master Shr ZhengZhong`s movement. And I mean the execution of the movement, it being the exact movement and last but not least... intent!

Sayloc- check your pm

[Three Harmonies]

Yu Shan is not only a dedicated, highly skilled Mantis player, but also a man of honor and integrity. Many believe the quality of the teacher can be seen in ones students. Yu Shan is the shining example of this creedo. His students are refreshingly humble Mantis players that are quite impressive in their talent and ability to learn quickly. It has been my pleasure to become good friends and martial brothers with Yu Shan, and look forward to more meetings with him and his wonderful troop in Nashville TN.

Sincerely
Jake Burroughs

[Xiao Tang Lang]

TangLang 69 Welcome to Pong Lai! Glad to hear your training went well with Shrfu Jim. He trains hard and trains his students well. Hopefully we can all hook up in the future. Take care.

Regards,
Mike

[Oso]

ha, Hey Mike! I didn't know that was you.




Pong Lai is better than ninjas.


:D

[Xiao Tang Lang]

Yeah, It's me. Best wishes on your new school. Don't forget to take it easy on the smaller students you big bully! LOL. My apologies in advance to the moderator as I realize this thread is deteriorating rapidly.

[Oso]

Thanks, it coming along. Not as nice looking as yours.


ha, it had to deteriorate...couldn't keep stroking yu shan's ego...he'll get a big head.

:D
;)

[yu shan]

You all are waaaay too kind. But thank you anyway. Oved was only taught some entry level material. But even the basics in TangLang are fun and challenging. He picked up three arm conditioning exercises, go lou tsai a few ways, wei gwa shou, sun and moon line using a di lo shou and a short mantis set named "little four hands" single-side and partnered. I would like to see Oved make a trip to Tampa and meet Shifu Scolaro sometime. He would also get to train with 18-Elders and Xiao TangLang. Those two dudes are insane, watching them do BengBu partnered form is off the hook. Don`t get in there way :D

Heading over to train with Oso, Ming Yue in a few days. The Asheville school`s a tuff bunch, I`m really looking forward to this.

Jake, thanks bro, I too look forward to our next get-together. I`ve banged my gums all weekend about your Shifu, hopefully Oved can meet him next year.

[bung bo]

Good to have you with us Mr. Zamora. You will learn a lot, And you will learn the apps to all of it. Get ready to have hard arms! (after an initial "toughening up" period) I can't say enough good stuff about PLMA. You are in good hands with my shifu. Hopefully you get a chance to meet the guys in tampa. Watch out for a dude named Andrew and don't let him break your wrist:rolleyes:

18elders--I agree with you 100% about apps. I've never seen anybody move like Shr JengJong.

Three Harmonies--I look forward to seeing you again and maybe a little Liu He TangLang.

[Judge Pen]

I should weigh in on the pong lai/yu shan appreciation thread! yu shan is a class act. Whenever I'm in Nashville I know I have a great place to train and condition.

I appreciate the openess and respect I feel training in Nashville.

[Oso]

I appreciate the openess and respect I feel training in Nashville.


you mean as opposed to say...KFM?

;)

btw, and ot for a sec, you need to fill me on why there are two SD guys here in town that apparently don't care for each other. just pm me or email. thanks.

[Judge Pen]

That's news to me, but I sent you a PM regarding my thoughts.

And I have friends to work out with in Atlanta and Asheville too! I'll be your way the weekend before Christmas. It's a date/trip to the Biltmore, but maybe we could get together for a beer while I'm down.

[yu shan]

Appreciate your kind words, you are always welcome here. And anyone who would like to drop in and work-out. Just don`t expect a fengshuei proper cadilac lookin` kung fu palace ;)

I`m still waiting for tanglang69 to chime in and share his thoughts.

And JP, I get to train with Oso this weekend, what a beast!

[Judge Pen]

Have fun this weekend. I'm working the sympathy factor of my bum knee and have convinced a great looking woman whom I am very interested in to spend most of her time with me this weekend. I do need to get back out to Nashville and train soon. I can still bang arms with a bad leg.

[Frogman]

:D
Banging arms or knocking boots, not a tough call at all. I think I have a bum knee coming on.
:p

RibHit
fm
:cool:

[Judge Pen]

:p

[tanglang69]

Chime in, heck I am recovering right now. My brain is absorbing the drills we went over, since my arms absorbed them last weekend.

Thank you sifu jim for allowing me to train with you. We need to look at the calender for Jan or Feb 05 to see when I can fly you down here to McAllen.

All the guys and gal I met while I was there were very polite and gracious. Nice Hospitality up there in Nashville.

Well gotta run,

Native American Heritage Month celebration here at Border Patrol Sector Hedquarters. Food to eat and dancers (native american) to watch.

Oved.