Cross Training

[Martial Joe]

I did post this about cross training in the Kung Fu forum...there was more to the post but this is what I feal was most important...

Now lets go to stand up VS ground...

I will use the famous BJJ for the ground and for the stand up the famous Kung Fu...

It is plain and simple that if you took a good BJJ guy and a good Kung Fu guy and put them in a ring(dont forget they are the same level in their training) and gave them two ways to fight which is:
The first way is no ground aloud.It is abvious with that rule the KF guy would win because kung fu was basicaly made for stand up fighting and is **** good for it too.The second way is no stand up.Right there it is obvious the BJJ guy is going to win.There are two types of fighting and they are standing and on the ground.

BJJ is not better because it has made a rep of beating guys in kung fu that suck but it is in a way because the guys who went in there take kung fu out there like it fair great standing up and on the ground.Well that just isnt going to happen.I have never seen a BJJ guy say that they are good on there feet.These guy arent that great on there feet so what do they do,they cross train!

So they never made a bad name for themselves because they cross train and dont take there style out in fighting and declare it will beat every style.They do what that art is for.What do they do ladies and gentlemen???? They fight on the ground(wow how smart of them)

Basicaly by saying that I am saying Kung Fu is good for stand up and you shouldnt try to go out there fighting if you dont know the ground.

I am begining cross training.I am a wing chun guy,but common I am not invicible.If some one takes me down on the ground and knows what they are doing I am going to get my ass kicked.So I am doing what the BJJ guys do but the oposite.They cross train to help there stand up which is usually muay tai(SP) and kick boxing.
So I am going to train in wrestling and perhaps BJJ.I have my stand up but I dont have my ground.

So I suggest anyone who is in kung fu and expects to be a good fighter and wants to fight NHB better get out there and cross train.


Well People,thats all I have to say right now...

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[wingchunalex]

your definately right, if you get taken down from behind, your screwed if you can't fight well on teh ground. my sifu says that american high school wrestleing is better than brazilian jujitsu, they get killed by guys who were awsome highschool wrestleers. so that is my recomendation, judo would be good to, for throws. there is an assistant instructor at my school who knows wrestleing, akido, and was invited to be on the olympic judo team, so he trains us in ground fighting sometimes. so i totally agree with you.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[Martial Joe]

I dont plan on crosstraining just to be familure with the ground.Like when you gave an example of getting taken down from behind...well I want to be real good on the ground and real good standing up...


Wing Chun does help me when I am on the ground now.Like when your working on pounding the guy under you he may put his arms up and I can use my wing chun to get his arms out of the wat.I think that can actually help alot.Not just that but posisitioning of the arms can help to when being in a submission....

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[whippinghand]

Jujitsu is not a martial art. It is a brawling art.

If you want to learn how to fight, you don't need to learn Wing Chun. I can teach you how to fight in one day. The rest is just practise. And then you can supplement THAT with groundfighting.

[Shadowboxer]

How long have you been training in WC? I'll assume you haven't mastered it. Are you learning any Di Tong? I once heard that 9 out of 10 fights end up on the ground. I also once heard that 9 out of 10 fights end up on the ground because too many people have no stances. How are your stances? How/what do you think the BJJ guy/girl would do against more than 1 attacker? Just food for thought...

[Martial Joe]

Shadow Boxer...I have been in wing chun for under a year so my stance needs work...but whos stance doesnt?

I am alright for a beginer,I can stay on me feet though I have wrestled a wrestler who is way bigger then me and I could stay up and I got him into a choke when I moved to the back of him.

What is Di Tong???


WhippingHand...And wing chun isnt a brawling art?
My wing chun does help me alot on the ground but if you took a good wing chun guy and a good wrestler or JJ guy and had them wrestle who do you think would win???

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[Martial Joe]

No one is into crosstraining eh??

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[Grappling-Insanity]

Whipping Hand- How is JJ a brawling art?!? clarify this for me.
Shadow Boxer- What do stances got to do with anything?? do you think your stance will stop a sweep/takedown???

[anerlich]

I'd say Wing Chun is more of a brawling art than Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

BJJ is at least as technical and principle-based as Wing Chun.

A "brawling" art ain't necessarily bad, if it works....

Shadowboxer, the BJJ school in my area does 2 days a week BJJ, one day kickboxing, one day street defence. Purple, brown and higher belts are required to spar and defend against several opponents. Not every BJJ attack is done from the mount or guard, there are positions which allow one to regain the standing position or bug out quickly.

Every stance has its weaknesses, with only two points of contact to the ground. Takedown defence requires mobility, not stability.

How well are *you* going to go against several opponents, anyway? Wing Chun isn't necessarily the best style for that either. All that time spent on chi sao with one other person. Something like CLF or Northern Sil Lum arguably has better techs for the multi opponent scenario.

[This message was edited by AbMan on 09-05-01 at 03:00 PM.]

[OdderMensch]

rough translation-ground fighting :)

Grappling-Insanity

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What do stances got to do with anything?? do you think your stance will stop a sweep/takedown??? [/quote]

yup, proper "Ma Gung" or stance work is the best defense against sweep/takedown. Ma gung also includes footwork, and the connection of the upper body to the feet. I see so many clips of people being taken down/thrown/swept that start with an over extended or poorly rooted stance.

for instance if you were to try to slip under a punch and grab my arm for a hip throw and I had good, solid Ma Gung I could "root" back into a YCKMY(goat pinching stance) while keeping you at bay with lan sau(baring arm) and you would then have a problem.

Alternately if you went in for a double leg take down and i had good ma gung I could shift to Qui Sut and use an elbow to lower myself onto your extended head.

Is this easy, no. Can it work, yes. How? Practice, Practice, Practice. :)

[This message was edited by OdderMensch on 09-05-01 at 03:14 PM.]

[anerlich]

Thanks, OdderMensch. What's the difference between di tong and kum na, if any?

Whether di tong, kum na, BJJ, or Martian Wombat Boxing, being on your back in the middle of a hostile crowd ain't a good place to be.

[OdderMensch]

never heard of kum ma, ill ask tonight in class.

AbMan

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Takedown defence requires mobility, not stability.
[/quote]

yes but what if you didnt have to sacrifice all your "stability" to have good "mobility" then you have good Ma Gung!

[dzu]

Fighting multiple opponents or weapons requires mobility to get away at the first possible chance. It's much easier to do that if you stay on your feet.

I believe kum na means grabbing and seizing, aka chin na, joint locks, etc.

Your stance, or horse, is the foundation of the system and your art. It has everything to do with everything regardless of which MA you practice.

There is a time and place to step and a time and place to stand your ground.

Training in two MA before you have a foundation in either will lead to mediocrity.

Dzu

[anerlich]

My first instructor (who knew his KF style ground defence pretty **** well) used this term to describe ground fighting. He's an anglo, though, so there's a chance he got it wrong (but since he's been doing MA since 1963, I tend to doubt it).

Guess I better ask a few questions too.

OdderMensch, your points about stability/mobility are well taken.

[BeiKongHui]

I've crosstrained in Muay Thai, BJJ and Sambo. I think you'd be fine training in wrestling unless you want to compete. I find that wrestling puts you in a good position to strike but not to good for submissions. If you can find a Sambo coach try that out. I feel it is a more complete art than BJJ and it works well with Wing Chun.


I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Sharky]

this is ****, wing chun is a brawling art, it's ****in made to demolish the person as quick as possible, i'm sick of people saying "if you want to learn to fight you don't need wing chun" - that's ****in bollocks, it's a FIGHTING ART. I want to learn to fight so i come to wing chun.

If you arent training for fighting then what's the point? It's for fighting and anything else is a bonus.

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[Martial Joe]

Sharky that was touching...

Thanks BKH...

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[CerberusXXL]

I have mixed feeling about cross training.

At the moment I'm practicing goju ryu karate. I have practiced this style of karate for about 13 months now and I have paid until december 4 2001.
I have started shotokan karate for one week now.
I have started wing chun for 2 weeks right now.

Practicing so many styles was not what I had in mind but right now I have to deal with until december where I will have to make some choice. I discovered wing chun and I was hooked by its concept which makes sense and are efficient.

Now, back to the original question about cross training. I say it is both good and bad. It's good because you are learning many things and you can see from different perspective. However, karate and wing chun do not share much in common and I have to spend extra time on both in order to keep up.

In the end, I think it's better to concentrate on just one style and give it your best which I plan on doing in a few months.

peace.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Wing Chun is not needed to teach any individuals how to punch. whether it be reverse punch or vertical punch hammer fist etc.
Therefore, Wing Chun is to teach you defense and strategy in order for one to win the fight. but brawling, is definitely out of the question. It is a gentleman and lady's art. An art of finesse!

[Shadowboxer]

Oddermensch said what I would have said. Developing your rooting ability and stepping is very important, as well as rooting while you are stepping. I thought Kum na translated into knife techs., but I could be wrong also. When I was training in Aikido, we did randori against 2 attackers. In WC, we do traingles against 2 attackers, one with a rubber knife. In Aikido, the goal was to evade and throw while keeping one person between you and the other as much as possible. In the WC triangles I do now, I think after the first attack, ideally there would only be one more attacker left to deal with due to groin kicks, knee breaks, shots to the throat and eyes and face, and combinations of the above. I don't think I would want to have to go to the ground to choke one out. I've only been training WC for 1.5 years but I think I would do better than a grappler with same amount of experience against multiple opponents. The groundfighting is in the system, I've learned some basic stuff already and there's more to come. I'm not a complete beginner on the ground.

[Martial Joe]

Roy...wing chun is a brawling art...


Valn...you feel that way because your mixing 2 stand up arts that are way different from eachother...

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[fmann]

I think cross-training is defintely a good idea so long as you don't lose focus. Like maybe applying WC principles to your ground work, studying what needs to be done in certain positions, etc..

Just remember KISS - keep it simple, stupid. If you see an opening where a simple punch would work, but instead you want to take the guy down and get him in to a neck crank, then I know I personally would re-examine the whats and the whys.

[whippinghand]

If it's not obvious, then there's nothing more to say.

[whippinghand]

coming from a kid, with one year of training, who just started highschool, and who is planning on organizing fights from his back yard.... you can fill the rest.

Don't put WC in a nutshell.

[Scott]

Well, your post is painfully obvious. but yeah.

Kung Fu is an art which was made with multiple attackers in mind, it wasn't developed as a sport. Whatever =P I don't feel like adding on to this =P

-Scott

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis

[Martial Joe]

coming from a kid, with one year of training, who just started highschool, and who is planning on organizing fights from his back yard.... you can fill the rest

I may have one year of training but I have figured out alot in a short time.

Just starting highschool could mean something...if i was stupid...

I never said I was planning organized fights in my backyard,that was CanadianBadAss...

you can fill the rest...

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[Martial Joe]

By the way,what did you think of what i typed out for crosstraining??

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[Sharky]

i can't figure out if whipping hand is really clever or really stupid. he does indeed know about wing chun, but just chooses to try and appear superior to us all. He's like a less annoying, wing chun version of sifu abel.

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[Martial Joe]

I really never found SifuAble annoying...

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[Martial Joe]

Mayeb i didnt read anough of his stuff...

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[Sharky]

check the most recently locked thread on the main forum.

"Spectacular immaculate raps massacre cats like dracula bats, I'm snappin yer back cos I'm attackin the wack, duckin yer rapid attack, **** packin a gat, the mechanic of rap'll give you panic attacks with his Satanical raps." - Guess who.

[whippinghand]

I don't read long posts, but I skimmed through yours. What do I think about your post? If you need to cross train, then you're learning Wing Chun from the wrong person. Not that there's many WC teachers out there who actually know the complete system, unless you're really lucky.

[Martial Joe]

Maybe your totaly wrong and you dont know what your talking about.My Sifu knows what hes doing.He has learned from the best.Wing Chun is incredible.I want to learne how to fight on the ground aswell.You say all this crap and you didnt even really read my post...

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[Martial Joe]

It is kinda funny how I respond to what you say and you respond to what I didnt say,you just add more stuff that really means nothing and is incorrect...

Example...I said this...

"I may have one year of training but I have figured out alot in a short time"

and you replied with if I need to cross train I am learning from the wrong guy.

Another...
I said you mistook me for BadAss and you didnt say anything about that.You just ignore things when your wrong and try and play them off like these things never took place.It is quite pathetic...

[whippinghand]

You are DEAD right.

[Martial Joe]

Why did you make dead in capital letters?

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[whippinghand]

Do you really need an answer?

[bert.nes]

:rolleyes:

[BeiKongHui]

At this point it's best to ignore Wiping Hand. I don't really think he has a very realistic view of modern combat as the lineage he is from does not spar or encourage much contact. I love Ving Tsun but I also am trained to be a fighter( not just a Chi Sao player) so I realize that like any other art ours has strengths and weaknesses. Crosstraining will prepare you for what your opponent is going to do if nothing else. Learn a little Muay Thai or a grappling art and see how well most of your kung fu brothers fare against those arts...my guess would be not very well. Too many of our fellow WC/VT/WT practitioners are arrogant or misinformed because of a lack of fighting experience or experience against other arts.

Interestingly enough I read recently where someone asked Sum Nung why previous generations of Ving Tsun practioners were so much better than those today. I believe his response was that "nobody fights today". There's a lot of truth in that.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[whippinghand]

You must be taking that "higher road", that Sihing73 was talking about.... good for you.

[BeiKongHui]

Yep, perhaps someday you'll join the rest of us up here! ;)

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Martial Joe]

I dont spar in class...

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[whippinghand]

"I should be so lucky". For some reason this doesn't gel with the moderator, but posts prior to this one do.... hmmmm