Teaching Mantis forms

[sayloc]

These questions concerns the time frame/methods forms are taught. I know..if you dont undrstand the fighting apps the form is worthless...(trying to stay away from that discussion)

1. How many of you teach northern long fist forms before
teaching the core mantis sets? (Doesnt the HK branch of
seven strar and the chin woo association do this?)

2. If you do teach the long fist forms you must think they are
valuble training tools.

What would you think if a qualified Master developed a
system combining the long fist techniques and the mantis
techniques in the forms, focusing on longfist with some basic
mantis movements (and theory) mixed into the same form at
first? Then mixing more of the mantis techniques in with the
longfist as the student gets more advanced?

Isnt this what wong long did with the different styles? Why
stop now ?

I realize most people want to preserve the original styles

I am not promoting this, just curious of what kind of replies it
will get.

3. Is it possible for a person to master 3,4 or even 5 styles of
mantis? There are many to make this claim. Seems hard
to "Master" one style not to lention 5.


Have a good day

[mantis108]

1. How many of you teach northern long fist forms before
teaching the core mantis sets? (Doesnt the HK branch of
seven strar and the chin woo association do this?)

This is one of the biggest myths and misunderstandings IMHO that ever happened to PM. A lot of the teachers came to Mantis with their own MA background. Most of them would want to keep something from the pass simply because they have spent so much time on it. GM Chiu was one of those. He also kept some Jingwu stuff in the style because of his affiliation with Jingwu. Over time people lost sight of what the mantis system's original protocol is like and beginning to do things as they see fit. If one understands the original protocol there's really no need to begin with non mantis material. Most teachers do other stuff for various reasons. But it is IMHO no need for that.


2. If you do teach the long fist forms you must think they are valuble training tools.

More than often, they are of sentimental value IMHO.


What would you think if a qualified Master developed a
system combining the long fist techniques and the mantis
techniques in the forms, focusing on longfist with some basic
mantis movements (and theory) mixed into the same form at
first? Then mixing more of the mantis techniques in with the
longfist as the student gets more advanced?

See, this is lamination not crafting. Mantis or any other TCMA style for that matter is not about picking up and combining various techniques. A basketfull of tools doesn't make you a good carpenter by default. A wood stud that is a solid piece of wood is going to withstand the pressure of crafting better that a wood stud that is pieced together (lamination) by different pieces of wood. It is important to understand the make up of the piece of wood (the system) before crafting it.


Isnt this what wong long did with the different styles? Why stop now ?

Personally, that's a myth and I don't subscribe to that myth. I am leaning towards Tanglang was born out of another ancient system although which system is beyond me at this point. I have some possible candidates for this (prototypical tanglang) but I don't have any concrete proof.


I realize most people want to preserve the original styles

Yeah, I respect that too.


I am not promoting this, just curious of what kind of replies it will get.

I hear you and no harm in that. :)


3. Is it possible for a person to master 3,4 or even 5 styles of mantis? There are many to make this claim. Seems hard
to "Master" one style not to lention 5.

I would not know because I haven't even master one. :(

Warm regards

Mantis108

[monkeyfoot]

1)
Im from lee kam wings lineage.

I have only been doing PM for about 5 months and we have already done a longfist set - gung lik kuen.

This is the order i have learnt so far.

bung bo + all apps
gung lik kuen + most apps
daw kwan + most apps
half of black tiger and a bit of sup sao although im leaving these until a while.

2) I think every form has value to a certain degree.....just depends how you look at it. Gung lik kuen for example - we are supposed to do this form for 20 minutes eventually with full body tension seen as its a power form so the physical benifits after would be of some value to me.....plus is has given me so much power in certain stances that i didnt have before.

3) dont get this question....you asking whether its pos....lol stop this sentence. no i dont get it so explain.

you have a good day
craig

[sayloc]

Monkeyfoot

Thanks for your ino on what you have learned so far. Good luck on your CMA journey.

108

Thanks for your detailed reply.

I liked the lamination analogy, but I kind of see it as teaching the long fist forms as a separate style of form beside the mantis forms as more of the laminations and combining the movements of the longfist and mantis together more like making a new stronger stud. Make any sense to you?

Here is some interesting info. I was told by some carpenters that the new laminated beams are even stronger than one solid beam. That puts a new twist on it doesnt it? Any carpenterrs out there?

You seem to be much more experienced in these matters than myself and I value your opinion.

Thanks for your time

[mantisben]

Originally posted by sayloc
...
..if you dont undrstand the fighting apps the form is worthless...

I wouldn't say the form is worthless if you don't know the fighting apps of the form. Doing PM forms is very invigorating, gets ya blood flowing, and can help someone be more physically coordinated. It can build Stamina. Also, doing PM forms can clear your mind, and help you focus. PM forms are good for the heart, good for the lungs, and good for circulation. Even though a person doesn't understand the fighting apps of a form, they can benefit from the form. When beginners are starting out with the form, they don't know the apps (I guess that depends on the teacher), but they benefit from it physically (and some mentally) from practicing the form. Whats more, you don't need expensive exercise equipment, or alot of space. It can even keep you warm in the cold.

...What would you think if a qualified Master developed a system combining the long fist techniques and the mantis techniques in the forms, focusing on longfist with some basic mantis movements (and theory) mixed into the same form at first? Then mixing more of the mantis techniques in with the longfist as the student gets more advanced?
If the "Qualified Master" were as good as Wong Long, I'd say that was a great idea! If it were just someone who practiced PM for 10 years, and decided to combine PM with - for discussions sake - with Escrima, I'd be a bit sceptical, but not discouraging.

But if I knew someone who knew PM and Escrima and wanted to combine the two, I'd say "Go For Yours!". Take that PM you learned and have fun with it. Personalize it. Make it your own. Life is short.

Still, in my opinion, a person would have to have a deep understanding of PM before they could successfully, and effectively, combine PM with any style. And just FORGET about getting it widely accepted in the general PM community. You'd have to start your own community, which is what Wong Long and the other founders of the PM style did.

3. Is it possible for a person to master 3,4 or even 5 styles of mantis? There are many to make this claim. Seems hard to "Master" one style not to lention 5.

Have a good day

I believe a person could master more than one style. It would take alot of training, and hard work, but it could be done.

The main question that comes into my mind regarding question #3 is "How does one know when one has Mastered a style?".

Does that come from your peers? Maybe some kind of "Master's Test" you pass? Or possibly when you "Feel" like a master? How about Seniority? Could you be a Master now, and not even know it?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, some thoughts with a big finale.

All styles are made up. Usually based off other styles due to previous training. You would have to be a real genius to create a workable style without having previous fight experience.

What's curious to me is how everyone appears to feel that past masters were so great that they could create a style yet no current masters can do the same thing. Exactly how good was Wong Long before he created Mantis? Couldn't have been too good because he kept getting beat. His style was only accepted by his peers after beating them with it which I believe is the only requirement for creating your own style. If you can prove it works that's all you need.

Poeple nowadays combine styles all the time without really thinking about it. What you learn stays with you and influences your current training. Every once in awhile someone formalizes it and sets out to teach his new style. Usually with a lot of rejection. Remember that most of the greats (like in art for instance) only became famous and recognized after they died.

I'm sure there was a lot of resistance to changes made by some of the past masters otherwise there wouldn't be all the differences we see today.

Addressing the question of mastering multile styles it would depend on the person AND styles. Nothing that peole do amazes me anymore because the human potential is so great. Personally I could never keep them seperated and they would meld together but I see others have a knack for keeping them seperate. Learning multiple Mantis styles is just a matter of remembering the minor variations so it's probably easier then learning 2 comletely different styles. Mastering them would mean there is nothing you don't know and that's a stretch for me.

The grand finale.

Maybe it's just me but #2 sounds like Chan Pui/Wah Lum and #3 sounds like Shr Zhengzhong/Pong Lai. Are we going somewhere with this?

[sayloc]

Not trying to go any where with this. Just thought I would get some opinions with out any kind of politics involved.

Sounds to me like the hybrid style combining the long fist and mantis can be as effective as teaching the two systems separate at the same school. Why not? To some it may be a great idea.

I dont think the WL master is just an average martial artist so it seems he could be very qualified to take on the task and create a great system. Never met him but he sounds like a very great master.

As far as numerous styles, I guess I should say "can an average person master numerous styles" From what I see on the forum from the pong lai masters students he seems to be far from average. I have no doubt that he could master numerous systems.

Have a good day

[yu shan]

The curriculum in our school is as it was presented to me by my Shifu. It does include non-Mantis forms. These are not long fist though. Everyone likes these non-Mantis forms, chock full of apps, two-person material and the ling side to also. It appears that Master Shr blends these forms into our training along with the Mantis forms. At my age, I`d prefer to only learn Mantis, but I`m in the hands of others. But I will say this, the non Mantis material is pretty darn good or Master Shr wouldnt teach it.

[18elders]

Master shr teaches beginners the long fist stuff to give them a base because it is easier than the mantis.

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Hasn't 7 star mantis boxing already been influenced by longfist ? One of its past masters , Wang Rong Sheng , had a longfist background along with Di tang ( ground rolling boxing ) so I think that this question has already been addressed about 150 years ago . Today we are all using forms introduced by this master .