Interesting Piece

[MantisZombie]

From the Chin-woo site;

I find the article interesting because at the end of the rather large spew, he breaks down a statement using the same "out of context" logic he says he's complaining about.

I keep wondering what is it exactly that he does for the mantis community??

No,..I guess I do know; He is quite entertaining!

http://chinwoo.lifehome-china.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=8

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Both Steve Cottrell and Kai Uwe Pel have been tremendous sources of information (at least for me) in the past. It's a shame this is happening.

"Fan Xu Dong grouped his system and it’s parts into three theoretical levels. He gave them names: Qixing, Meihua and Guangban."

So which is the highest level? (Don't get mad if your style is the lowest guys)

"He makes the conclusion that all the forms and ideas that Fan Xu Dong grouped as ‘Meihua’ must have been lifted directly from the parallel mantis style/family group “Meihua Tang Lang” and so on"

Guess I'm an idiot, I would have thought the same thing. If the choices are he swiped it or he made up the exact same thing independantly I think the odds are closer to swiping it.

"I have not found it in mainland Qixing Tanglang Quan. (Please if I am mistaken someone correct me).”

No, let's ridicule you, demonize you, and then correct you. Give me a break. All you need to do is fire off a post saying "No Steve, my research indicates you are wrong. Here's why .....".

"Moreover I, Kai Uwe Pel have been insulted personally and ..."

Want to kick his a$$? Sorry, couldn't resist it. :D

Hopefully Pel Sifu puts as much into his kung fu as he puts into his debating studies and forum analysis.

And Mr. Pel (I'm sure you are reading this), I call on you bury the hatchet and openly share information especially if it conflicts with the conclusions of others. No need to shoot the messenger either.

We're all waiting to learn, are you up for the challenge?

BTW, I hope Mr. Pel is not locked out of participating on the MQ Forum (although my opinion of shanghai kid is rather low, you can leave him out). Sorry SK, you need to be a little less caustic when you post.

[Three Harmonies]

First of all I want to state that I am by NO MEANS an expert on anything, nor do I consider myself anything more than a budding historian. So as far as Cottrell Laoshi's resources I cannot speak. He has presented some very strong arguments and considerations for those of us interested to ponder.
I have know him for a couple years now, have met with him, discussed with him, trained with him (and his students), and had friendly disagreements with him. NEVER, and I mean NEVER has Cottrell laoshi even mentioned that he is close to being a "Master" so I am not sure where this comes from. He is one of the most humble individuals I have met in the CMA community, and has never referred to himself as anything more than a serious student.
But for sake of argument let's say Kai Uwe Pel has a point. First question: what the hell is the point? He has not presented any evidence refuting Cottrell's "lies"! In my limited scholastic experience you cannot tell someone their info is wrong without backing it up yourself. Conjecture does not count.
Secondly: MantisZombie raises the best point, what is Pel doing for the greater CMA community, or for the Mantis community? If indeed Cottrell is a gigantic boob, at the very least he is putting forth 110% effort to raise the standard's of the Mantis community through his publication, site, forum, books and efforts to unite the community. This is more than anyone else is doing right now, so where does anyone have the right to criticize!? If Pel is so hell bent on being right and proper, I offer a challenge (and no not the typical BS kind we see on this forum). Pel I challenge you to print (on your site would be fine, but even better to print it in the Quarterly) historical evidence supporting your claims! I will personally enure you get this info into print if you so desire. IF you do not / will not then I think it time you quit, and chill out. These BS attacks are doing NOTHING for ANYONE! And to bring Robert Hui into this in such a manner is disgraceful. You should be ashamed!

Sincerely
Jake Burroughs
www.threeharmonies.com

[mantis108]

First and foremost, thank you Jake. you are a pal.

Thank you Kai Uwe Pel for the Honorary mention of my name and post on the World Chin Woo Men organization's website (such a presence). :D

Here's the entire post that was on the Mantis Quarterly forum in reply and support to our friend here on KFM as well.


Hi Shirker1,

Don't feel bad or upset about those ignorant people. Martial arts, even teaching it, is a learning process. The problem is that it takes time for the would be martial artist to mature especially when the guidance was off in the first place. You see, today a lot of the schools regardless of style hardly have the time to educate their students to appreciate and respect other arts. When student learn a skill set, they believe it's the only thing that will work which translates into it makes them the bestest and badest Mofu on earth. Nowadays humility can only be taught by humiliation (it seems that what they have been doing).

The lack of respect for Kung Fu and in this case mantis, but not specific to you, is not entirely the other "arts" fault (assuming the critics are from other MA disciplines). Real Kung Fu has been a closed door process for such a long time that people really had little to reference with. Adding to the problem that imagination of theatrical plight has captured the hearts and minds of Kung Fu audience. This is all due to the lack of transparency of the trainning processs. It became so superficial that if you don't hop into a mantis stance and sway like a mantis you are not doing mantis. If you do use punching and kicking, well you are kickboxing! BTW using Quan Chui and Beng Chui as combo means that you are frailing!!! What made the matter worst is that even our own mantis community behave the same way. Elitism exist in Mantis community as well.

I always maintian that I am not the best (perhaps never will be the best). But it is important that we contribute and open up the learning process. If we believe in and passionate about our arts, it is okay even if we are being ridicule. The ego is a small sacrifice for the cause. Keep that grand vision in mind and move forward. I believe that's the very spirit that puts the Mantis Quarterly on the mantis world map in such a short time. That's why we are here lending the support to the vision and to the leadship of Sifu Cottrell.

So my friend keep the sharing coming.

Warm regards

Mantis108
__________________
Contraria Sunt Complementa

Your mind must be a scary place to be sometimes! (hmmmmm, have to think about that for a while...kind of like that movie "Being John Malcovitch"..."Being Mantis108"...) - Sifu Cottrell
*****


So there you have it folks. Like Jake, I feel the same away about Sifu Cottrell.

If Kai Uwe Pel feels that keeping students and others in the dark is going to be better for Tanglang and for the world, by all means let them go that path. Frankly, ignorant is bliss. Perhaps that would help them focus and master their style(s). Is this the middle ages or information age? [in the voice of Dr. Mccoy of USS Enterprise.]

A friendly reminder, I am the kind of person that believes no free press is bad press (pun intended); thus, my sincere thanks. :D By all means quote what I had said. I stand by what I said. I have no desire to tell people what's correct and what's incorrect. I share my opinions base on my own understanding. I don't "enslave" people with titles, ranks and such. So I am NO master of anyone or anything. I coexist happily with the reality that which we called the world. I certain don't nor try to manipulate anything in any way, form or shape including the media/press. ;)

So now back to our next episode of "As our Mantis world turns" (re:Coronation Street of Mantis community). ;) ;p :D

Mantis108

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Man, and I was just on the verge of believing that you and Steve are evil geniuses bent on enslaving the Mantis community.

Whew, that was close. Thanks.

[German Bai Lung]

Again, I´m very sad that english is not my native language and I can´t accurately write down what I´m thinking ....

First: Sifu Cottrell is a person of great knowledge and very fine behaviour. I don´t recognize anything at anytime where he is arrogant or insulting anyone! What Sifu Cottrell did for the Mantis Community is without example in any other Martial Art Community! We owe him a lot! My Opnion!

Second: I can´t remember anyone (ok, except me in the Beginning!) attacking Kai Uwe Pel here! Anyone was very polite to him like everyone is most of the time in general. So why did he and his ShangHai Buddies attacking everyone all the time? It´s a shame. And this does nothing for the mantis World but does a lot against it!

Third: Quote from the mentioned text "This statement is a call to all self-respecting Praying Mantis family members who also respect their families and masters to avoid Steve Cottrell and his work." This comes from someone who all the time disrespect his family and his master! Who disrespect his master (Sifu Lee Kam Wing) while being his student and claimed to be his follower! Who will take this statment serious?

Once again I ask myself: what is wrong with this man? What kind of problems did he got? What does the cruel world did to him?
I´m sure Kai Uwe will not believe me, but i would be happy if he calms down and accept the difference in the mantis world and live with everyone in peace.

[shirkers1]

Man now my name SHIRKERS1 has been dragged into this world mantis war!!!! Oh nooo. Thanks robert!!!!! :) just kidding.

Well It's none of my business who is trying to discredit who. Bottom line is where I come from that was a pretty un honorable thing to do by Mr. pel. For someone who trains as much as Mr. pel I find it weird that he has this much time to write small novellas dissecting the psyche’s of other people. I barely have enough time to train and put up meaningless posts on here much less the deep thoughtful content that Mr. pel comes up with. I mean come on now. To put up something like that on the chin woo site is retarded. If you train at chin woo then you already know where you stand in the MA world why discredit someone else? Why bother?

Mr. Pel, listen if your mission is to better mantis then do it in a positive way not a negative way by trying to discredit what others have to say. SHOW what you have to offer. Actions speak louder than words. In america that is where it's at, the proof is in the pudding. If you have "it" then you can show “it” for all to see. Anyone including myself can sit here and type up a lot of stuff about nothing and everything. But it boils down to when I show up somewhere and someone wants to see what I have to offer. Am I going to talk my way out of it? Or show what I have to offer? I know what I am willing and able to do. So there is the question, are you going to SHOW what you have to offer or expect others to "believe" what you say without seeing what you have to offer?

[sayloc]

Seems to me from his posts on this forum that Sifu Cottrel very respectful and knowedgable about Northern mantis.




and that is all I have to say about that

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm thinking an open invitation for Mr. Pel to attend the Mantis gathering next year might be a good first step in smoothing relations with everyone in the community. I think we're all interested in what he has to offer. What do you think shirkers1?

:D :D :D :D :D

[shirkers1]

Well let me think how to word it so I don't get the smack down again. JK bai you have a job and you do it well ;)

Yes I agree. Like I said a positive way to get your views across as well as a respected one would be to show what you have to offer. People respect action more than words in the states. So if the mainland 7* community were to represent themselves in cleveland in april, I think a lot of this mess could be cleared up. It would be a great opportunity for the chin woo to show the world what most people haven't been able to see yet myself included. This would also give a chance for it to happen in a friendly manor instead of negative words on a messege board or internet site. But that's just my opinion. :)

[Joe Mantis]

If I understand correctly, Steve Cottrell is an evil man who is trying to distort Mantis information and propagate an "unatuthentic style," AND he does this by publishing a newsletter that has contributions from noted Mantis scholars/practitioners and the like?

Wow, Steve I guess I need change my opinion of you.

NOT.


Steve, thanks for what you do for us Mantis people, don't let the "press" get you down.


Joe Mantis

[Joe Mantis]

P.S. I HOLD THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF MANTIS!!!

[ursa major]

I read the doc on the link.

I am astonished that this is still going on (Sifu Pel vs. Sifu Cottrell, the world and all that is wrong with TangLang on planet earth). I was also disappointed to read Robert Hui's name mentioned in such an uncomplimentary manner as well. :mad:

Sifu Cottrell has been and remains an exemplary contributor to the TangLang community. Same for Mr. Hui I might add.

Best regards,
UM.

[18elders]

just read it, wow!!, and he gave the pong lai group crap about our shrfu's challenge to him.
I like HLL's idea, come to the mantis gathering next year.

[Skarbromantis]

Mr. Pel is just looking for more attention, and you guys just gave it to him.

When I first started mantis I really enjoyed this forum, now I couldn't care less, it like the circus, with too much attention givin to the clowns.

Skard1

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

So then you don't mind if someone publicly talks shlit about you?

If you don't respond to accusations it can be construed as accepting it as truth. The way I grew up you don't let anyone run around town talking shlit about you without standing up and answering back. Anything less is either a sign of weakness or an indication that the shlit is true. But then your Canadian and you guys get along with everyone. :)

As for Mr. Pel getting attention there might come a time when the attention he gets is more than what he wanted. That's his life to live so it really doesn't affect me one bit. I just hate to see any more polarization among the community than there already is, especially at a time when it looks like everyone is coming together.

BTW, been wondering what happened to you and a few others. I've left a few times myself but eventually I come back.

[woliveri]

I think in these type of situations it's good to ask ourselves,

WWKCCD?

or


What would Kwai Chang Caine do?


Ha ha....

Good alter saying don't you think?

[Frogman]

Not to jump on the bandwagon but I have been reading these threads for some time and even though I do not know either of these men nor am I affiliated with either of their systems I am of the opinion: Most of the information that Mr. C has provided seems very in-depth and full of useful material. Much of what is in the MQ is above my level of understanding at this time so I can not determine the authenticity. However I do know that many of his resources are recognized authorities of PM. To fault Mr. C and the MQ is to insult the Mantis Community. Many of the posters here have contributed as I understand it. People like Tainan Mantis, Mantis 108, Hua Lin Laoshi (Sifu it was nice to finally meet you), German Bai Lung (Nice Website, my German is no where near as good as your English so don’t feel bad), and YuShan and the Pong Lai group, all back Mr. C. I find it hard to believe he could fool them all.
Mr. Pel has provided some useful threads but more times then not they turn to criticizing Mr. C. I am not sure what has cause this line in the sand but Pel seems more intent on dragging it up and through the mud over and over and over… It’s one thing to disagree but to assert that someone is passing off half rate material without substantial evidence has me questioning his motive??? Maybe he is trying to get himself more attention and is willing to do it by drawing attention to Mr. C. as well.
Of, course isn’t it the nature of MA to be combative? We train to fight not to hold study groups. Although we live in a time where sharing information is more important then worrying about walking down the street the nature of what we do has not changed. Men are no more nor less the beast we have always been. If you want to survive must be willing to fight, but, of course, you don’t have to.
My Two Cents

RibHit
fm

[Skarbromantis]

Hua Lin Laoshi - I drop by now and then, and yes I agree with what your saying, its good to stand up for yourself, but If I were to defend myself everytime someone was talking smack, I wouldn't have time to train.

Plus I'm Canadaian, so I do try to get along with everyone...well except Wing Chun guys. :D

And now Clown Pel will be riding a elephant performing single broadsword, while re-educating the mantis community.... may I have your attention to the center ring.

[-N-]

Originally posted by MantisZombie
I keep wondering what is it exactly that he does for the mantis community?? Everything else aside, it's clear from Sifu Pel's technical writings that he is very traditional, and he knows his stuff.

N.

[shirkers1]

I've talked with members of mr pels group outside of this forum and honestly don't have a problem with them as individuals. I don't favor either side. But this whole fued thing is crazy. We should save this for the MMA guys who feel the need to degrade our style as a waste of time and energy.

Now what is said and how it is said I don't agree with by Mr Pel. My idea is that someone who is in such a high standing in the chin woo has the ability to have a very positive impact on the mantis community. Whether mr pel thinks so or not, steve cottrell is a positive impact. The way that things are going down right now are very negative towards the growth of this large community and the unity that some people are trying to establish. I think all of us here are in agreement that this is just garbage on all levels. Maybe we should just let it go. We all have our opinions of people we deal with on a personal level here in the states. Mr pel would like that to change but frankly I don't see his actions convincing any one to do this.

So unless he were to represent in cleveland ohio in april 22-24th and maybe prove that what he has to offer is "the standard" for 7* praying mantis. Then maybe some people will start to take him seriously. Other wise he's wasting a lot of thought and time writing down rediculous stories. I'm sorry but it's all just words for me, we need to see what someone has to offer, not read about it.

thanks,
mark

[-N-]

Originally posted by shirkers1
So unless he were to represent in cleveland ohio in april 22-24th and maybe prove that what he has to offer is "the standard" for 7* praying mantis. There is a lot of good technical information here:

http://chinwoo.lifehome-china.com/modules.php?name=Stories_Archive&sa=show_month&year=2004&month=10&month_l=October

People can work on these things under the guidance of their own teachers. More than enough material with which to keep busy.

N.

[shirkers1]

You're right!!! good enough for me. Forget everything I said about showing instead of writing. I mean it would be better to read it in a book or online than to see it in person any day. <--- heavy sarcasm.

[woliveri]

shirkers1,

Sent you a PM.

[-N-]

Originally posted by shirkers1
[...]showing instead of writing. Definately showing is best. I did say for people to work with their teachers on the things written in the articles. Their teachers can show them.

Shirkers1, I could tell from looking at a split second transitional movement in one of your clips that you are from WHF. I could also tell from reading Sifu Pel's articles that they have great value.

As for politics and personalities... I stay out of that.

N.

[shirkers1]

N

I agree with you. I said it myself mr pel makes great points and writes great articles with info. This article in question I think was a waste of thought. The whole positive negative aspects I spoke of in prior posts. There is a better way that's all I am getting at.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Skarbromantis
I don't sweat the small stuff but a public display such as the source of this topic is entirely different.

All in all it looks like this thread and the London Northern Mantis thread are going nowhere. I doubt Shanghai Chin Woo will be represented at next years gathering. I also doubt any significant info will come from the London Mantis group (but let's formally invite them anyhow).

This place is dying fast.

(downdshifting into lurking mode)

[shirkers1]

I agree hua.. :) I tried to say lets just let it go. We all said our piece. :) Well everyone but the two names that the article is really about. No disrespect to robert. ;)

[SaMantis]

No, to me it looks like everyone here is voicing their support of Sifu Cottrell and their disdain for Mr. Pel.

Allow me to add my support and say, in my experience on this forum Mr. Cottrell has been very thoughtful, knowledgeable, and tolerant of my dumb newbie questions.

Happy Mantis-ing :)

Edit: I was replying to Skarbromantis' first post but looks like this thread filled up real fast! Sorry if it throws anyone off.

[wolfen]

I read the Steve Cottrell article before but i hadn't read one of the source threads showing the conflict.

Wang Rui Xuan posted from Shanghai and it looks like making another argument about Luo Guang Yu's high/low framework.
.. and the influence of nan quan?...
...

So i went to finish up my reading ....but the material referenced in KUP's article about Steve Cottrell....
---------------------------------------------------------

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/for...?threadid=31978

"It as started by a post called “Luo Guang Yu: Mantis Footwork” by Kai Uwe Pel. It was posted on 08-18-2004."
-----------------------------------------------------------
They have been deleted, there are only 2 posts to be found now on KFM by Kai Uwe Pel.
His article on Mantis Footwork is on still his website though.
-------------------------
But none of the articles on his websites seem enough for me to understand what is the beef?
Despite the apparent detail I don't know what he is complaining about or why.
..
And what is his reward or reason for maintaining his POV about LGY?
In a few succinct sentences?
25 words or less?

[shang wu]

Only an open and honest exchange of ideas and information helps us. Anything else is petty and of no value .I think we all enjoy the content from those that share information more than the conflicts. I have gotten great benefit from these exchanges of ideas, and in regards to MQ it is a true act that comes from a real love affair with the art, And I must say that it is more than many have done for the mantis community.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by MantisZombie
From the Chin-woo site;

I find the article interesting because at the end of the rather large spew, he breaks down a statement using the same "out of context" logic he says he's complaining about.

I keep wondering what is it exactly that he does for the mantis community??

No,..I guess I do know; He is quite entertaining!

http://chinwoo.lifehome-china.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=8 This is the kind of BS controversy you end up with when you never fight or compete.

[shirkers1]

knifefighter,

The chinwoo don't believe in "competing" as they are a "traditional" MA school. So that is out, as for fighting it's easy to talk about how bad someone is and not have to show how good their stuff is. Especially when you live on different continents. Although you tried to make a point it really isn't valid in this case. Are you telling me that there is never controversy or words spoken in the sport fighting world? All conflicts are solved in this venue? Don't think so. I do know that in the street these issues would be solved if the things were said face to face and not over a computer screen.

What if's are everywhere, and in the case of this article it's nothing but personal attacks disguised as a warning to the masses to look out for charlatans and fakes. Apparently there are no good MA schools or fighters in the world accept for Mr Pel and his tanglang men. (<---sarcasm)

He could just as easily put up POSITIVE posts on his site giving examples of good schools, and good performance videos. Instead it's nothing but how horrible everyone else is. He even includes a post about how a chinwoo video is not the "real deal". Nothing is sacred or safe it seems. :) Say I'm a willing student wanting to find a good mantis school? Where do I look? How do I find a school? If chinwoo is the standard then give me some positive examples of good 7* mantis and we'll go from there.

[wolfen]

From that article alone it's not clear what's it's all about.
....
Kai Uwe Pel deleted all of his posts and threads here.
So can't read up on it.
Only two he couldn't delete because the threads are locked.
....
Do the roots of this thing go back to KUP and Lee Kam Wing? Why did he spit from LKW?
..

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by wolfen
Do the roots of this thing go back to KUP and Lee Kam Wing? Why did he spit from LKW?
..

It is going back to Sifu Lee. But there will be an "eyeopener" soon here posted ...

[wolfen]

Thanks White Dragon.
I will keep my eye glued for it.
...
Hopefully it is "mouth closer" too?
...
sigh...

[FEELERSTRIKE]

check out www.itswahq.freeserve.co.uk/members/members_index.htm

[BeiTangLang]

"Welcome to the ITSWA members page


These pages are designed purely for our members. Should anyone have any content that they believe would be of benefit, then please send them to Sifu Derek Frearson " ???

[wolfen]

http://www.itswahq.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm

(members)


www.itswahq.freeserve.co.uk/members/members_index.htm

(news)

BTL:

Click on NEWS. The pointer does not change to a hand.
Then click on the link labeled Kwai Uwe Pel:

... extract ......
-------------------------------------------------------------
The former student of my Sifu's who was expelled, is Kai Uwe Pel, not only was he expelled from my Sifu's association but he was also expelled from the Hong Kong Chin Wu Athletic Association and the Hong Kong Chinese Martial Arts Association, FOREVER.

The reasons: he has abused my Sifu's trust, he betrayed our style and family by changing the name of our style, moreover he changed the forms. He is arrogant towards his peers, and students alike. His is spreading lies about my Sifu and Grandmaster Chiu Chi Man, the above associations have expelled him for his treacherous, deceitful and dishonourable behaviour.

Master Lee Kam Wing has been my Sifu for many many years and I have seen him give Kai Uwe Pel many opportunities to change his behaviour. But instead of getting better, his behaviour eventually became intolerable for my Sifu and the Hong Kong Chinese Martial Arts and HK Chin Wu Associations alike. So they all expelled him.

Kai Uwe Pel is not a Worldwide Chief Instructor of Mantis Kung Fu. The Hong Kong Chin Wu did not appoint him as Worldwide Head Trainer nor has any other Chinese Martial Arts Association given him such an appointment.

He has been expelled from all Hong Kong Martial Arts Associations, also he is not a Master in the Singapore Chin Wu Association, he is merely a STUDENT. He is a very deceitful and unloyal student.


-----
Declaration signed by Lee Kam Wing attached:

Note:
"Additionally Mr. Pel is required to remove my name and photos from all his publications".
This does not seem to be the case:

http://mantisboxing.bizland.com/teacher.html
http://mantisboxing.bizland.com/history1.htm

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Are you telling me that there is never controversy or words spoken in the sport fighting world? Not of this type. You're not going to hear people arguing about whether or not something is the real deal or fake. That is because the proof is in the arena. Can you imagine people arguing about whether or not someone is teaching "real" basketball, baseball, or boxing? That only happens in areas where there is never any "proof" shown.

[wolfen]

Thank-you Feelerstrike for that revealing piece of information.
Although the information is not complete it looks as though KUP is continuing a long established pattern of behaviour considering his posturing in Shanghai.
....
However, it would be good to hear both sides of the story. because really..who knows what transpired?
And Kai Uwe Pek did bring mantis to germany...
...
This event happened 15 years ago before the full birth of the internet so there is not much historical archive on the internet.
I believe in both sides of the story.
Kai Uwe PEl titled an essay on his Shanghai website:
"Lee KAM WING: a "crazy" master? ..
But he never wrote anything ..(under construction) and looks like it's been that way since year 2000.

Anyway the expulsion would expalin his animosity to Lee Kam Wing Group and also WHF lineage who are in friendship with LKM.
..
The attacks from KUP are reprehensible but from the viewpoint of reenge and ruthless powerbroking they make sense.
...
I think he is the "mantis who would be king".
It's the would be Caesar Kings vs the Republicans as in Roman days!!!

[German Bai Lung]

List members!

We, the german students of Sifu Lee Kam Wing, are not sure if we should post a reliable file in an forum. It is of course "OFFTOPIC".

So everyone interested in the "eyeopener"file, please send me a PM and I will E-Mail you a PDF in the next days!

Thank you.

[HouZiPiGu]

How about a can opener? I've got a can whoop-@$$ lying around here somewhere.

You hungry?

[Frogman]

RibHit

:rolleyes:

fm

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

German Bai Lung
You have a website don't you?

I think quite a few are interested but thanks for not posting it here if it's not mantis related.

[shirkers1]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Not of this type. You're not going to hear people arguing about whether or not something is the real deal or fake. That is because the proof is in the arena. Can you imagine people arguing about whether or not someone is teaching "real" basketball, baseball, or boxing? That only happens in areas where there is never any "proof" shown.

The bottom line is the things you speak of are "sports", the training of true MA or traditional MA is for combat not points or sports trophys. Just like in sport fighting you have better teachers and better training the same holds for MA. So in modern times where you have legal issues and the like it's hard for someone to meet one on one and throw down without penalties to test their skills. Even more so it's harder to find an individual that is willing to put another out of comission just for the sake of who's better. This isn't high school any more and bottom line is these are skilled individuals that could do a lot more damage than a windmill swinging kid. Also take into mind that individuals live on other continents or countries and it makes it even harder for people to connect. No matter how much you argue you're never going to convince me or others that sport fighting is the end all be all period.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by shirkers1
The bottom line is the things you speak of are "sports", the training of true MA or traditional MA is for combat not points or sports trophys. Just like in sport fighting you have better teachers and better training the same holds for MA. So in modern times where you have legal issues and the like it's hard for someone to meet one on one and throw down without penalties to test their skills. Even more so it's harder to find an individual that is willing to put another out of comission just for the sake of who's better. This isn't high school any more and bottom line is these are skilled individuals that could do a lot more damage than a windmill swinging kid. Also take into mind that individuals live on other continents or countries and it makes it even harder for people to connect. No matter how much you argue you're never going to convince me or others that sport fighting is the end all be all period. Really? The Gracies have used thier "sport" and done these kind of matches at their schools for years against all comers.

I've personally been involved with quite a few of these type of matches against a variety of different "non-sport" stylists.

One of the things that makes fighters such as BJJer's, the Dog Brothers, and MMA practitioners so effective is that they know that important lessons are learned in the sport world that can cross over to non-sport MA settings.

Holding themselves separate from sports and the lessons to be learned from them is one of the reasons that so many traditional martial artists can't fight effectively.

[Merryprankster]

training of true MA or traditional MA is for combat not points or sports trophys.

Fundamental misunderstanding of the sportfighter/competitor mentality.

Why does a fighter fight? Why does a writer write? A painter paint, a philosopher ponder?

Because that is what they ARE. It has nothing to do with trophies and everything to do with being true to your essential nature.

[shirkers1]

So does that mean because I'm not a sport fighter that I'm not a fighter at all, or can't fight in general? Because I don't fight in a ring any more? That's the feeling I get from all sport fighters online. Knifefighter seems to think that there is nothing outside the realm of sportfighting. That sportfighting is the only true fighting art in this entire world.

Doesn't matter IM me with your answer, it's not the topic of this thread. Round and round she goes where she stops no body knows.....

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

As with everything there are different levels. Everyone is a fighter. Some don't know it until pushed far enough. Others are natural. Some train to be better. Some just fight more. Round and round it goes ........

Any training will make you better.

Will running make you a better fighter? Yes.

Will weight lifting make you a better fighter? Yes.

Will sport fighting make you a better fighter? Yes.

Are any of these absolutely neccessary to be a fighter? No.

I know what you mean though. Some people come off like if you don't spend 6 - 8 hours training and spar on a regular basis then crackheads and winos are gong to pick on you and beat you up.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Knifefighter seems to think that there is nothing outside the realm of sportfighting. That sportfighting is the only true fighting art in this entire world. Using sportfighting and the lessons to be culled from it is a very good way to develop fighting ability. It's not the only way. The Dog Brothers stickfighters are some of the best and their approach is not sport, although they do take many of the lessons from the sport arena and apply them to their fighting. What matters is that you are constantly pressure testing and evolving your system. Excuses such as "it's too deadly" or 'legal problems" are just that- excuses.

[isol8d]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Some people come off like if you don't spend 6 - 8 hours training and spar on a regular basis then crackheads and winos are gong to pick on you and beat you up.

If this was truly the case, I would spend 6-8 hours training and sparring, hit the crack pipe, drink a box of wine and go clean up the streets.

nah, I'll just study mantis for my own reasons. It's not worth the box wine headache.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well, I prefer my wine in bottles :D but like you I just do what I do. If I want to add to it or change anything then I will. I'm certainly not going to stress about whether I'm missing a piece of the training pie.

Knifefighter
"Using sportfighting and the lessons to be culled from it is a very good way to develop fighting ability."

True, it is a very good way, but people tend to get annoyed when others proclaim it to be the only way.

[Merryprankster]

That's the feeling I get from all sport fighters online.

Don't know what to tell you.

As tired as you get of hearing that sportfighting/competition is the only way, I get equally tired of being told "it's not about trophies," as though that is what is motivating me or other competitors. Some people compete, others are competitors. It's in their nature and blood and it's nothing to do with medals and recognition. It is to that, which my comments were directed.

If overaggressive ranting is the downfall of 'sportfighters' online, surely pretensiously "being above it all," is the downfall of 'TMAers' online.

Enjoy your blissfulness. You're probably quite a nice fellow in real life...no need to be rude around here, but feel free.

[sayloc]

I get alot more out of the arts than fighting. Havnt worried so much about being a bad a$$ much since the 11th grade.

All of the training, cardio, forms, two person drills, grappling help you become a better fighter if that is what you want.

But, you have to admit that if you have not been in a full contact match with someone kicking and punching you as hard as they can, mixed in with the grappling, you do not know what you are capable of. That is a fact.

Detached retina's, broken nose, torn cartilage, bruised ribs....I dont care if I know what I am capable of. I am getting to old for those kind of injuries.

I will just practice Bung Bo :)

[BeiTangLang]

K guys,..This one has seen its days...& waved bye-bye.