Do sport fighters utilize short power?

[SevenStar]

Discuss.

[Vash]

Short power = striking ability in exceptionally close quarters, aka "one inch punch?"

If so, I'd say so. Of course, I'm not internal, so I don't know 'bout tha rizzle shizzle.

[IronFist]

No. Only chi masters use short power. Short power is illegal in UFC and that's why TMA guys lose. Also cuz you can't strike the eyes. Also cuz no chi blasts.

[TAO YIN]

For sure,

Chucky is a prime example. When he is clinched he does an excellent job of softening up his opponents until they drop their hands somewhat, then he goes for the big strikes. Plus his anti-grapple game is excellent to boot.

I think that the major problem some people make when utilizing short power is that once they have the opponent softened up, they start to swing big punches instead of keeping them short while charging.

We used to do this drill in class from the clinch. The idea was, once you got the other person softened up, opened up, or back-pedalling whatsoever, you lower your position and go relentless and charge with short power shots to the neck and head area. It was definetely a waiting game sometimes, and it really hurt.

Here is even a "short power" history tale. Joe Lewis had some freaky short power. He practiced his jabs from a short distance on hanging square bails of hay. Watch his lead left sometime.

Cool topic by the way Seven.

Tao

[SPJ]

This is a good topic.

1) Not only a punch.

There can be push and pull.

2) Usually it is a sudden force and requires the whole body movement to generate power.

For internalist, it will be Nei Gong or Nei Li and also Qi mobilization.

3) The use of Kua (hip) and shoulder or chest to push (Kao) may also be considered as short power.

4) In Tai Ji, you use the sudden jerking whole body force (Tan Do Jin) to generate the Jin. It works the best with little or no distance. Which means you may contact first and then generate Tan Do Jin.

Usually, these are very destructive to the opponent internally.

May not be good for ring events.

In the ring, you want technical points, throw or some kind of submission to end the fight or get more points to win.

To produce internal injury may not be the goals or necessary in sports.

You want to win on merits and techniques and not injure your opponent.

[yenhoi]

My teacher was a sport fighter and he has short power.

:confused:

[yenhoi]

Most sport fighters are probably more limited in the long arm understanding then they are in short arm understanding.

Id think.

:eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

The only thing I can think of that might prevent sport guys from using short power is since it's tougher to see, it could be tougher for judges to score a hit. But, since most guys would rather KO than win on points, I think that would be a pretty minor consideration.

[Mr Punch]

Boxing.

Sure the body connections are different to TMA but are they so much so? When I jab I sink, I relax, I try to optimize my body position and the relaxation of my muscles to connect from the foot up through the knees, the crease of the thigh (kwa/qua), the hips, the abdomen, the shoulders, the arm, the hand, the opponent.

In wing chun the only difference in the way I describe that connection sequence is maybe I say that it goes through the elbow, rather than the whole arm, but as essentially this means the muscles of the arm anyway, it's similar. Other chunners would say that there is no crease of the thigh effect in WC as the punch is generated by a pelvic thrust, but I've never learnt in the Elvis Schoold of Wing Chun! :D

Of course wing chun is maybe not the best example of short power work, so maybe my POV is pretty redundant compared to many of you internalists out there... my internals are not so hot...!

Buuuut, one thing from my internals class we work on a lot is using short range peng and jing to try and hit directly into the opponent's centre, and more importantly as a release from a grab...

As SPJ said there is more than one to use short power, not necessarily punching... and this is very similar to the quick slipping movement my shooto teacher uses when he goes for the shoot esp from the clinch. He just calls it the slip tho, no fancy expressions. The purpose of it is to start you going off balance, and kind of lead your intent over his body, as he goes in deep to your legs.

[Water Dragon]

I use short power (SPM) in the clinch.

[Ray Pina]

Working on it.:)

[red5angel]

I don't see why not. Whether they are conciously training for it or not I imagine anyone training to fight in the ring trains some sort of short power in the clinch and other close quarters scenarios.

[jungle-mania]

Short power is essential for sports fighters, since this is a kungfu forum, I will elaborate more in chinese. I am sure most of the oldtimers here know of fajing, "explosive power". There is also chunjing,"close power". It is the same as fajing, but it has emphasis in tightening your arm or leg at the very last point from a very short distance.

Most TMA schools teach their students to work on their fajing by hitting the free suspended piece of paper with their fingers till the paper breaks, this is also done with the kicks.

Chunjing is a more advanced step after that, which is to shorten the distance of tighening up the limb before the strike. This is make the person more nimble and responsive to the change of events in a fight.

This is much like how Bruce lee said that kungfu is like a metal ball on a rope, while karate is like a sledgehammer. Both have their strength and weakness.

[Vash]

Originally posted by jungle-mania
This is much like how Bruce lee said that karate is like a sledgehammer.

Well, we can't say Lee was always right about things.

[Dark Knight]

Vash is right, back when Bruce was laive he had limited exposure compared to what we have today.

The term Karate is generic like the term Kung Fu.

Any one can say that based on what Jackie Chan does, Kung Fu has nothing like Kick Boxing or Grappling.

I was watching an old Karate movie from the 70's, I forgot the name, the actors did Shotakan. They had limited experience in it and looked terrible. But back then it was never seen before and these guys looked like death on two legs.

As far as sport useing power at different ranges, what type of sport?
point sparring?
MMA?
Kick Boxing?

In full contact sports you dont always worry about getting a point, In MMA you are looking for a KO or submission, so they will be concerned with it.

[SifuAbel]

" Plus his anti-grapple game is excellent to boot."

I would like to see this term replaced. There is no "anti-grappling". If you are manipulating at close quarter you are grappling. This term is actually trying to describe something different.

Distancing, approach and perimeter control are better descriptions. I'm sure somebody will think of a catchyer name for it later.

[Water Dragon]

Terminology Abel. When I hear the term "anti-grappling", I think of defending against a ground fighter who is trying to take me down so he can have his way with me.

Most MMA guys will refer to satanding grappling as "clinch work."

Different names for the same things. Semantics.

[Dark Knight]

Grappling, clinch work "anti grappling"

Its still grappling.

[red5angel]

so he can have his way with me.

you're so easy WD....

[Water Dragon]

What can I say? I'm a Man-*****.

[SifuAbel]

LOL! Mr. Mangina!!

[Palmer]

I would say yes and no? I think some sport fighters (and I'm going to refer to western boxing) definately do and some of them depending on there style, trainer and understanding of how to use there body dont.
I haven't seen Rocky Marcinano fight in old clips but I hear from many that he was very powerful and able to deliver alot of power in close. And I have seen Mike Tyson back in the day hit in really close torquing his body with a straight punch that I would definately define as short power. Also my teacher said to me once that Mike Tyson had an understanding of some of the concepts in Hsing-i despite whether he learned them as Hsing-i or not.
Well my 2 cents

[Buby]

Short power = hitting hard from a short distance without having to draw the arm back. In other words, my flow is continueous, where ever my hand ends after contact I should be able to shoot my hand out again while striking with full body power.


Buby

[Buby]

Originally posted by IronFist
No. Only chi masters use short power. Short power is illegal in UFC and that's why TMA guys lose. Also cuz you can't strike the eyes. Also cuz no chi blasts.


No, not really! If it's an internal strike than yes, maybe only a chi master can do it(or atleast a person who does there meds and chi gung). Short power, I don't think so. Short power = being able to create power without drawing your arm back(with or without internal power). All it is is good body mechinics. First you need to look at how you punch/posture, then you need to learn about circles. Circles come in all sizes!!!!!!

Nah, the tcm guys lose cause there not prepared properly.


Take care,
Buby

[Buby]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mat
[B]Boxing.

"Sure the body connections are different to TMA but are they so much so? When I jab I sink, I relax, I try to optimize my body position and the relaxation of my muscles to connect from the foot up through the knees, the crease of the thigh (kwa/qua), the hips, the abdomen, the shoulders, the arm, the hand, the opponent."

- Do you sink the elbow when boxing? If not you have broken your connection to the ground when jabbing. Punch slowly with your elbow down. While you are punching have someone put pressure on your fist. Then try it with the elbow out, I think you will find that you have a stronger structure/connection when the elbow is down.

"In wing chun the only difference in the way I describe that connection sequence is maybe I say that it goes through the elbow, rather than the whole arm, but as essentially this means the muscles of the arm anyway, it's similar. "

- Yes and No. Yes the difference is in the elbow and shoulder..chum boy chum jeurng(sink the shoulder, sink the elbow). No, you are not using so much muscle as you are using correct structure or body connection.

Take care,
Buby

[Water Dragon]

Short Power doesn't have to be striking. I don't use short power for striking at all. I get much better results from Boxing technique for my strikes.

The way I use short power is as follows:

We'll be in Boxing/Kicking range and playing that game. When a heavy exchange comes, I'll stick to the arm and slide in for a clinch. Once I have the arms controlled I'll use Short Power to either get my hook, or take their balance so I can go for a takedown. I basically do nothing more than make sure our torso's are touching and then Pop-Pop-Pop to jostle them and throw.

The "Short Power" that I'm using I picked up from SPM's Tan Ging Hey (sp?) exercises. I just use that drop to knock the other guy around a bit. It's not painful in the way that a punch or knee is painful, but it does a good job of taking their root away for a second.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Sr. Abel is correct. "anti grappling" = right cross & walk off with his date.

[Knifefighter]

I've seen, learned, done, and taught what I would consider to be "anti-grappling" techniques. To do it, you need a good knowledge and skill level in both striking, foot work, and takedown defense. It's definitely not your run of the mill sprawl or clinch work.

[SifuAbel]

OMG!!.............................. no.......................... I'm............

Going...................................

to................................ agree........................... with..............


ARGH!! THE AGONY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Buby
No, not really! If it's an internal strike than yes, maybe only a chi master can do it(or atleast a person who does there meds and chi gung). Short power, I don't think so. Short power = being able to create power without drawing your arm back(with or without internal power). All it is is good body mechinics. First you need to look at how you punch/posture, then you need to learn about circles. Circles come in all sizes!!!!!!

Nah, the tcm guys lose cause there not prepared properly.


Take care,
Buby

I was joking with my entire post :D Sorry for any confusion.

[Khun Kao Charuad]

For a good example of short power, there is a high-light clip floating around the internet of Buakaw Por Pramuk, the Thai who recently won the K-1 Max event in Japan, defeating John Wayne Parr and Masato along the way.

The clip shows highlights of his K1 Max fight, his training, and of a fight in a "Koma" event (which I know next to nothing about).

He is clinched with his opponent. He has his right hand around the back of his opponents head, and his left glove is clearly resting on his opponents right shoulder. He turns his opponent by pulling with his right hand, and without ****ing his fist in the slightest, throws the left hook directly from his opponents shoulder, KO'ing him.

That may not be *exactly* what you guys have in mind, but that is an impressive display of short power in a sporting environment with gloves on.....

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Khun Kao Charuad
and without ****ing his fist in the slightest
cocking?

Pretty impressive. I'd like to see that clip.

[Buby]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Short Power doesn't have to be striking. I don't use short power for striking at all. I get much better results from Boxing technique for my strikes.


The "Short Power" that I'm using I picked up from SPM's Tan Ging Hey (sp?) exercises. I just use that drop to knock the other guy around a bit. It's not painful in the way that a punch or knee is painful, but it does a good job of taking their root away for a second.


Tan as in springy or t/dan as in single?

Also, you say drop....Do you mean you sink/chum your body? And when using this method, do you use SPM posture? Ha Hum?

Thanks in advance,
Buby

[Buby]

Yes! I would consider that short power. Especially, if he was able to land more than one blow without c0cking his arm back. I didn't see the fight you're talking about, but going by what you said, I would say that the fighter had some type of or atleast some understanding of short power.

Take care,
Buby

[Water Dragon]

Tan as in springy or t/dan as in single?
I don't know. I don't speak any Chinese. The exercises were called the Tan Ging Hay. You basically tensed your entire body while coiling and then released everything with a drop and a stretch. There were 3 exercises. the first was up todown, the second was in to out, the third was down to up.

Also, you say drop....Do you mean you sink/chum your body? And when using this method, do you use SPM posture? Ha Hum?

Sorry Bro, I don't know the terminology. What I mean by drop is to drop into my heel and kua at the same time. I just simply let my weight 'drop'. I don't know how to describe it any better.

-edit-

The posture I use is somewhat similar to the SPM stance except the toes are not turned in as much. SPM and Muay Thai have similar fighting stances so it works for me :)

[Khun Kao Charuad]

Serpent...

Yeah, that word. LOL. He was literally holding the guys shoulder as he spun him around, then dropped in a wicked left hook to the guys jaw. He followed completely through the blow like he was punching down towards the floor....

...which is where his opponent ended up. LOL

Unfortunately, the video clip does not include the name of his opponent. Again, all I've been able to discern is that the fight event was "KOMA". Anyone heard of that event before?

[Khun Kao Charuad]

I have a link to the same highlight clip. You have to click on the VIDEOS link, then scroll through a few pages to find it. Its currently on page 5 and its labeled "Muay Thai Kickboxing"


http://www.compfused.com/

The KO happens right at about 2:30 - 2:34 into the film clip.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Tan as in springy or t/dan as in single?
I don't know. I don't speak any Chinese. The exercises were called the Tan Ging Hay. You basically tensed your entire body while coiling and then released everything with a drop and a stretch. There were 3 exercises. the first was up todown, the second was in to out, the third was down to up.

Also, you say drop....Do you mean you sink/chum your body? And when using this method, do you use SPM posture? Ha Hum?

Sorry Bro, I don't know the terminology. What I mean by drop is to drop into my heel and kua at the same time. I just simply let my weight 'drop'. I don't know how to describe it any better.

-edit-

The posture I use is somewhat similar to the SPM stance except the toes are not turned in as much. SPM and Muay Thai have similar fighting stances so it works for me :)

OH... the ones we did last time I went to chi?

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, the coiling exercises from that pigeon toed stance.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Khun Kao Charuad
I have a link to the same highlight clip. You have to click on the VIDEOS link, then scroll through a few pages to find it. Its currently on page 5 and its labeled "Muay Thai Kickboxing"


http://www.compfused.com/

The KO happens right at about 2:30 - 2:34 into the film clip.

Looks like his arm was already ****ed for that punch.

[Buby]

Last time I was hit with short power the dude had his arm almost fully extended. He placed his palm on my shoulder and twitched, it felt as if I got hit in 3D. Never felt anything like that! It felt as if my shoulder collapsed into my other shoulder. His hand didn't follow through, it made contact and stopped there. There was no pushing or follow through whatsoever, just shock.

Take care,
Buby