Just visited an EBMAS school.

[SAAMAG]

Hey guys, as some of you may know, my wing chun training is not complete, I don't have Biu gee nor the weapons sets. My brother who had originally taught me wing chun years ago no longer practices (or teaches) and so Im in a quandry in terms of "finishing" my wing chun curriculum.

My only physical choices here in San Antonio, are a LT school, and then an EBMAS school. I already stated on here what I thought of the LT school, and since Emin and Great great great Grandmaster Leung Ting seperated ways...I decided to see what Emin's side had to offer.

As far as the techniques go, they are still doing the same basic thing, to include the chain punching all over the place and the 90 degree foot placement in the front lead stance. (I can't bring myself to do that - it feels really odd). Anyway, what made this place different then the other though is the mentality of the fighters there, and the teacher's hospitality. They train to actually fight there, to include maintenance of the body (IE staying in shape through cardio and weight training). They have numerous heavy bags and some weights, but still stress technique over braun, they simply believe that in any martial art, if you're not conditioned to fight, you probably wont be able to, and I agree with that. So lineage wise, Im not so fond of some of the methodology, but the guys that train at this school, and their diligence, seem a lot more in tune with mine. I'm just wondering if it would be better to do a correspondance thing with Fong or Gary Lam and just fly back and forth every so often, as I like those lineages much much better.

So basically Im looking for some advice from the rest of you all....what do you think?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Do both.

[russellsherry]

hi vankeun i enjoyed your thread , did they say how long to bill jee? because as you know in lt german school its like tem years i have heard emin teaces quicker peace russellsherry

[russellsherry]

sorry vankeun it should have said teaches peace russellsherry

[PaulH]

Vankuen,

I know Gary is very good with Baat Cham Do, but he only teaches it provided that your WC hands are very good and sound. Serious and scary stuffs here!

His gym has a very nice pole training set-up. You will have lot of practice against the pole dummy as well as various other weapon training aids. Perhaps one or two months tuition at his home in LA would be good for you. Ernie is doing the BJD privately with him too now.

You could of course learn Biu Gee with Gary while you are there. Are you rich? =)

[SAAMAG]

No definitely not rich, in fact just the opposite. I am the king of "living within my means". Im just really **** dedicated in my wing chun (and martial arts in general) and I have really good credit (cards). I'd be willing to sacrifice given the opportunity to train with good people. I wouldn't mind flying up maybe a couple times a year to get some more insight/training.

I've had a sum total of about 21-22 years of martial arts training (not counting the first 5 years of my life or so)...I've been doing martial arts for as long as I can remember. Granted, it's been here and there and I've obtained skill/experience in a number of different systems, taught for a while...and through it all, I've come to realize that, at least in my reality, wing chun best suits/suited me. It along with the muay thai that I still practice have provided me with the simplest and most direct methods of self defense, and a constant love of what I do. The other systems of gung fu have come and gone, and I still retain much skill from studying those, but what didn't become second nature is now lost, most likely because it didn't help me much in terms of actual fighting. I can still perform with just about any individual method that I've learned through the years, but I'll be ****ed if I can remember all those friggin form sets! My thing was always hands on drilling anyway.

Sorry about the long post I got a little carried away.

So about my choices...better to train locally? Or go correspondance with some cramming trips?

[Stevo]

I’d personally want to continue on the track that I’d started on, basically because I wouldn’t want to have to unlearn everything I’d already learnt to get to the point where I could progress in a lineage that has such a different take on fundamentals (unless I wasn’t happy with what I’d already learnt).

In the past, I’ve done many round trips of about 1300 km (approx 800 miles) to have private tuition from a great teacher. Luckily, I now only have to travel a few miles to enjoy the same privilege. If I was in California or within practical travelling distance of it, I’d want to learn from Gary Lam.

[PaulH]

Vankuen,

As WC has too many subtle energies that must be felt and understood correctly, you would do yourself a great service by having detailed hand-on coaching and guiding instead of secondary sources like videos or correspondence courses. I recommend enthusiastically that you stack up your hard earned gold and learn from good local WC teachers. Perhaps there are other great ones in the heartland of Texas nearby.

If you struck oil some days, be sure to visit us in LA!

Best wishes on your MA journey! =D

[Vajramusti]

Check your PM box.

[SAAMAG]

That' true, I could look to houston or austin I suppose. I will look into that as well. I think there is more LTWT and EBMAS WT as well as a moy yat school there.

Anyone have any input on the Moy Yat system?

And what about the local EBMAS school? I haven't heard much in reference to that from you guys....

[Ernie]

http://garylamwingchun.com/training.html

Gary has a live in/visit type program

as for were to go , hell as many places as you can :D

my senior gary's most senior student was a 12 year guy under the Fong system before he ran into Gary ,

he has nothing but good things to say about Fong , really talks highly of his sensitivity

he just said he had never felt [ scary ] wing chun like Gary had

i could send you his email if you wish to speak to him , he is a very honest person

but Mitch [ that's my senior ] had good skill coming in as a credit to Fong system

as for the local EMBAS guys , there very good Andrew and Dhira both are fighters not just steering wheel pilots ;)

[couch]

I found that at my EBMAS school here that they were doing a lot of "crashing" in to the opponent. Very hard. I didn't see a lot of deflecting and sticking and yes - there was a lot of chain punching. It will teach you how to fight, I believe that, but is wasn't for me.

I enjoy the Moy Yat system. I feel it's good for me. It's simple, direct, efficient...just like Wong Shun Leung liked to say. But that's just my opinion. And opinions are like a**holes.

There are many Wing Chun greats out there that I would love to spend some air miles to see, too. Gary Lam, WindyCityWingChunGuys, Ernie, Rene Ritchie, VTMuseumPeople, Robert Chu, etc.

I personally would phone around and talk to some respected masters of the art to get a feel for what they teach, what they expect out of you and to find out if they can help you along your path. Your path is personal, so pick up the phone and start dialing!

Good luck in your journey,
Couch

[SAAMAG]

From what I could see tuesday, they practice everything from standup fighting to ground fighting, and the Sifu there (a guy named Nico) said that it was genuine WT to include groundfighting, at least in his arena.

Lot's of chain punching, conditioning, I didn't get to see any chi sau or man sau that day though (I think they call it Lat sau in their lineage) so I couldnt say much about the sensetivity or clashing above what I've seen from Boztepe's vids here and there. The footwork was very linear as well, not too much deflection or variation, only chasing steps (that day...?).

But some wing chun/tzun is better then no wing chun (partners). Other then the people that I teach. (Im no sifu by any means in this system, but you do what you have to do to gain partners when you are in between schools).

I may end up going that route and then going here and there to learn from other good sifu's around the US. It sounds like that would be the better thing to do. I have enough vacation time from work I think to do it at least once a year. I just hope these guys aren't charging too much because that's airfair plus tuition. I hope I get rich soon......

[YongChun]

I would join the Emin school as a regular school to work out at and then time and money permitting, go and visit as many other teachers that you hear are good for private instruction or group classes. It's always better to practice with real people rather than to learn from videos. If you can beat up Emin then that would be a good start for your Wing Chun. But I don't know his curriculum, or how long he stretches out the program , or how good his students are compared to those of other lineages so I can't talk from experience.

Perhaps you have a certain kind of Wing Chun standard that cannot be addressed by the Emin approach. For us half the club liked him and the other half didn't.

Some of the first generation students of Yip Man were never looked upon too favorably by other fellow students of Yip Man yet some of those same people generated students who were pretty good.

[SAAMAG]

I think you're right YC. I think I do have a standard above that which I saw on Tuesday. I couldnt put my finger on it as precisely as you just did. Even with my limited knowledge of wing chun relative to all of you, I found that my standards in movement and technique to surpass that which I saw that day. Not saying that I will be beating up Emin any time ever in my lifetime...but I feel that wing chun wasn't meant to be the "hard" core style that it's made to be in that lineage. Of all the lineages, and no offense to any other WT people, it seems (and of course I have no real first hand knowledge) to be the most elementary of the major groups.

Chain punching and brute force and clashing. But then I can just use the wing chun I know so far and see how it fairs to help in my understanding of what works for me I suppose.

I haven't heard anyone say anything about the moy yat line yet....any takers?

[Vajramusti]

Ernie- A query or possible clarification-Possibly the Lam student you are referring to was a student of Jack Moramarco of California rather than a direct student of Master Fong. Dont know a 12 year experienced Fong student named Mitch but Jack had one I believe. No reflection on Gary. Joy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ernie sez:

my senior gary's most senior student was a 12 year guy under the Fong system before he ran into Gary ,

he has nothing but good things to say about Fong , really talks highly of his sensitivity

he just said he had never felt [ scary ] wing chun like Gary had

i could send you his email if you wish to speak to him , he is a very honest person

but Mitch [ that's my senior ] had good skill coming in as a credit to Fong system

[Ernie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vajramusti
[B]Ernie- A query or possible clarification-Possibly the Lam student you are referring to was a student of Jack Moramarco of California rather than a direct student of Master Fong. Dont know a 12 year experienced Fong student named Mitch but Jack had one I believe. No reflection on Gary. Joy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
not sure , i would have to ask him he only mentioned Fong and his training with him [ and in a good light ]

no worries about reflecting on Gary :D

he is very unique , rattles alot of peoples idea's

something very primal comes up when he is switched on ;)

have to feel it to understand it , like when some stranger looks eyes with you from across the room and just shuts you down

not sure if it's his wing chun or just him

[couch]

I would love to speak for my take on the Moy Yat line, but am curious to know what you want to know about it?

Do I think it's superior, etc, etc? No. It just works for me. Do you have any particular questions?

Sincerely,
Couch

[iblis73]

Hey Van, I think I met u back in 98 or 99 at Will Parkers school.......I dont train martial arts anymore but I know Nico and he is one hell of a fighter. Trust me, he can be very soft when need be.

There is more to ebmas than what you saw. What you have to understand is that the first year or even two in ebmas will likely be a LOT of crashing, chain punching and the like. Even the chi sao is aerobic and "hard". However (and I'm speaking from what I recall hearing) the idea is to develop structure and power, then go soft. Basically they dont believe you can just start soft but have to be able to hand someone trying to steamroll right over you first.

I've touched hands with Nico many times and he can be hard,soft or in between. He has some great circling and sidestepping as well.

Sorry if I sound like a shill for ebmas but I know firsthand there is more to it and Nicos skill than just what you saw that single nite.

[iblis73]

I know its off topic, but theres a vunak type guy who teaches under the title modern combatives-hes pretty decent. Also, there is a great new school-Vasquez Academy SA just off of 281/rhapsody. They teach boxing, mma and bjj-the instructor is a purple belt and even more important pretty ego free. Hes a great guy.

Theres also an Inosanto lineage JKD guy with classes in Austin and San Marcos-Ray Parra. Top notch knife/stick work, good grappling and one hell of a fighter.

I know your really after WT/WC/etc. but just wanted you to be aware of some of the great instructors in austin (where I'm working right now.) Lotsa good boxing/mma/bjj and jkd.

You can contact me at iblis73@yahoo.com if you want.

Ryan

[Tom Kagan]

I haven't heard anyone say anything about the moy yat line yet....any takers?

Yes.


- Searching the forum for the term "moy yat" is straightforward.

- Austin is an hour and a half or so from you.

- Emails addresses and phone numbers to quite a few people around the country to help get a different perspective on what you saw if you visited there are not hard to find.

- Many of my SiHings whose skill I consider first rate are not hard to find.

- Many of my SiHings who suck are not hard to find. ;)

- A few people who pretend to be my SiHing are not hard to find. :eek:

- I'm not hard to find. (Whether I, as a ToDai of Moy Yat, suck, are any good, or just pretending is not for me to say. :D )

I can't think of what else relevant you might be looking for at the moment - other than mooching a ride. :)

[SAAMAG]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't heard anyone say anything about the moy yat line yet....any takers?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes.


- Searching the forum for the term "moy yat" is straightforward.
I've done that, and found information bascially saying that moy yat wing chun tries to retain the "soft" side of it.

- Austin is an hour and a half or so from you.
I know...that's why I was asking about moy yat lines because I saw people that taught it in both austin and houston

- Emails addresses and phone numbers to quite a few people around the country to help get a different perspective on what you saw if you visited there are not hard to find.
I don't feel like calling total strangers out of the blue, expecially if I'm not going to be training directly with them. That's what this forum is for.


- Many of my SiHings whose skill I consider first rate are not hard to find.

- Many of my SiHings who suck are not hard to find.

- A few people who pretend to be my SiHing are not hard to find.

- I'm not hard to find. (Whether I, as a ToDai of Moy Yat, suck, are any good, or just pretending is not for me to say. )

I can't think of what else relevant you might be looking for at the moment - other than mooching a ride.
sounds to me like you're of that line...would you care to elaborate for me any details as to your line's take on training and maybe some highlights in the differences between your line and say LT's? Sometimes it's just nice to hear someone's personal perspective on a line. Thanks.

[SAAMAG]

Hey everyone, Im going to be headed back to the EBMAS school here in SA. I'll tell you how everything goes later tonight....

[cobra]

Van,

Go back to Will Parkers school and try it for 6 months and try EBMAS for 6 months too at the same time. That way you will get a better feel of the instructors and the curriculum and be able at that time to make an informed decision of your own. It's very hard to get a feel for what's going on in a couple of classes or for that matter a couple of months. Sometimes there is a method to the madness that you may not understand until you've been through it. Peoples personalities are the same, but I would key in more on what a person has to teach than what kind of personality he has. Do what is best for you in the long run and don't let other people keep you from reaching your goals. Either way you are in talented hands.

Good Luck and God Bless!

[YongChun]

I think the Emin approach is to train the rough and tough first to get you used to that and then do the refinements later. Some people start with the refinements first but then are always scared of the rough and tough people.

It's a popular debate in different arts: soft and then hard or hard and then soft? We have mostly examples of hard and then soft working but few the other way around?

[SAAMAG]

Hey guys, I watched the entire 2 hour class, had some conversation with the Sifu and some of the students here and there, touched hands with the sifu in a little poon sau and the don chi sau. I liked what I saw and felt.

These guys train hard and with the intent to fight people that are hitting them HARD. The class started with SLT, and then went straight into partner drills, tan da to the inside gates, pak da to both gates, gam da while moving in to jam....etc. Lot's of elbow usage and I saw some knees too. Very realistic in their approach and application.

I remember at one point where the sifu was explaining a movement which seemed to resemble a forearm strike while pak'ing the shoulder coming from an extreme outside gate (setup from previous movement) ...

"In WC you see a lot of flicky chops (shows a wang jeung) to the upper gates. You're going to be fighting guys that are trying to hit you like this (shows the cross-hook-uppercut going VERY hard) and then you're going to do (shows another wang jeung) this?! "

He said that the movement they do is much stonger in application and intent, and is provided power from the stance and body being behind it. It basically was a wang jeung, but with more forward energy and with the whole blade of the arm hitting and not just the sidepalm.

Later in the class the sifu asked me about my prior wing chun experience, I told him, and then told him I had been out for a while as well do to my broken wrist. He said there is still a lot I can do while it heals. Agreed. He asked to show me the poon sau I know. So we did a couple rolls ( I think he wanted to see my technique and feel). He didn't say anything in terms of feedback.

After about and hour and a half of technical training, the last half and hour (which ended up being 45 minutes) was dedicated to circuit training with calethstenics, jumproping, wall bag hitting, chain punches while doing chasing steps, lots of stuff. The thing at this point in the class was to do everything back to back to back until the class was over. This was to get the body in shape to fight for real. His philosophy (much to my delight...) was that one has to be in shape to be able to fight well.

After the class I mentioned to him his don chi sau was quite different then the one I knew. So we did that as well. and he showed me why. I understand now that the LT line and apparently Boztepe's although seemingly is very power orientated, does have a high level of sensetivity and feel, and very good reliance on angles and technique. I guess the videos don't do him justice in that department.

All in all, I was pleased with what I experienced, and so I will be back there on tuesday, but this time to work out!

[sihing]

First hand experience is always the best, compared to others recommendations, videos, and hersay....

Glad to hear that things went well for you Vankuen..

James

[SAAMAG]

Thanks James...Im glad Im happy with it too because it would've been highly expensive to drive hours to another city a couple times a week.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Vankuen
After the class I mentioned to him his don chi sau was quite different then the one I knew. So we did that as well. and he showed me why. I understand now that the LT line and apparently Boztepe's although seemingly is very power orientated, does have a high level of sensetivity and feel, and very good reliance on angles and technique. I guess the videos don't do him justice in that department.



I thought Emin's videos didn't do him justice. He moved a lot better when he was here than when I saw any of his videos. Also his sensitivity is not apparant from his videos because he tends to almost overuse the chain punch and flying elbows. I tested his sensitivity by having one of my arms in contact with his and then I would move a millimeter to the left or to the right. In one direction he would always do the Tan sau and in the other he would always do the Bong sau. He never made the mistake of going against my force in this sensitivity test. I used some light subtle forces and he did well against it. Also on the videos it's hard to tell if he could really defend against the kicks of a tall fast kicker like those from Hapkido but he demonstrated that effectively against one of my tall 4th degree blackbelt Hapkido friends. As soon as there was the slightest flich, he was in there.

One small lady didn't think she could do that. So Emin was behind her and told my friend to fire fast roundhouse kicks to her head. As soon as the kick started, he threw her in there so that the kick missed. He said he was illustrating that it was just a matter of good timing which comes from millions of hours of drilling. The lady didn't think she could even do that on her own steam though.

Then one of my students went to a seminar he held in another city and the guy who ran the TaeKwonDo school challenged him to handling his kick. Emin said sure. The guy kicked and got dumped on his head and then left. In the afternoon he actually came back and wanted to try again. So Emin let him try again and my student said this time the guy got dumped even harder and then left and didn't come back.

[sihing]

Ray,
Just a question or two. When Emin defended the kicks from the TKD guy, was it predetermined what kick he was defending? And did you video the event? lol.

In Emin's Real Self Defense tape, the two arm Chi-sao didn't look very good from him, his students looked better, so maybe he improved it since then. In the Wing Tsun highlight tapes from the London Event in 99' there was lots of random shots of Emin doing Chi-sao with all kinds of people, most of them allot smaller than him I must say. His Chi-sao looked better there, but all he really was doing in my eyes was attacking first and being more proactive, which to me means he has good forward intention, a good thing. It would have been nice to see him chi-sao with Kernspect or Guiterrez, someone on his level. I also have his Chi-sao tape and again his partner was much smaller than him, and the same things happened there too. Not too say that his chi-sao is bad or anything, I'm sure he put the hours in, but there are still some holes in the armor IMO. The Poon Sao was way to loose and the circle was too big, the hands did not stay in tan/fok formation which can be taken advantage of.


James

[AndrewS]

'Sihing',

yeah, he looks sloppy, especially compared with Mannes and Ringhausen on RWSD.

yeah, he looks loose.

yes, to you, it looks like he's just attacking first.

Looks can be deceiving.

Your eyes are tricking you.

Andrew

[sihing]

Yes Andrew, there's always that possibility.

I just really think the his philosophy and mine are different about chi-sao and rolling at least in some little ways.

Some of my observations of his chi-sao and his comments are similar to what I believe too, it wasn't a critique of his abilities, but the chi-sao demonstrated in the first tape, RWSD was not as good compared to his later performances. Emin is very good at what he does and knows and explains it very well. I appreciated his explanations in his chi-sao tape and it was a well presented lesson.


James

[SAAMAG]

Hey guys,

My experience with Emin was through one of his sifu's here in SA. Not Emin himself. But this guy is almost a mirror image in terms of tenacity and mindset. So I can only assume that Emin, upon giving this individual a teaching endorsement, would perform the same way or better.

Now what video is this that you're talking about? I'm trying to figure out the acronym....is it "Real World Self Defense"? I will do a search online....

[sihing]

Vankuen,
Yes RWSD=Real World Self Defense, a tape Emin made back in the 90's I believe (he still had his pony tail). Basically it's sort of a Bio tape of some of his experience in street fights and he re-creates it for some students, going over what happened and analysis it for them (it's dubbed into English from German). For a little bit of the tape he talks about the need develop sensitivity, so some students of his demonstrate DBL arm Chi-sao and then Emin does. See my comments above.

I actually appreciate allot of what Emin teaches, just some of the body mechanics that he uses are different.

James

[iblis73]

If you look at the folks who went with emin after the big split up a few yrs ago most of the ones that left the LT organization were younger ones. Nico is very tenacious but also one hell of a teacher (better than Parker imho.)

I would go beyond not judging folks by their videos-just dont get videos at all! Seriously the more one trains in person the less value a video has imo. Plus I dont think wc/wt really lends itself to learning via video, but hey thats just me.

One nice thing about Nico is that he wont "rush"you thru the student levels. You will train hard but if you aint ready then you aint ready. Also he isnt "nutty" like many of the MA instructors I've met. Trust me-i've met a lotta weirdos over the years in this field.

[AndrewS]

James,

there may be a difference in philosophy, there may be a difference in understanding. I've spent a good bit of time with sifu Emin and with a number of his senior students (several 4tg guys). I think what you are seeing is him working loose, letting his partner's force go where it will, rather than capitalizing on every mistake instantly, for purposes of teaching and demonstration.

Sifu Emin is definitely a moving target- his approach keeps growing, and the stuff on 'RWSD' is from over 8 years ago. Not only has he improved and changed personally; he's been forced to re-examine his approach and how to pass it on. It's a continuous and fascinating evolution to watch.

Van,

tell Nico I send my best wishes, and am looking forward to catching up with him soon.

There are some clips from 'Real World Self-Defense' floating around, and it has some nice things on it. The chi sao video is more useful, IMO, though 'RWSD' has a bunch of flashy demos. Frankly, I'm not too happy with any of our (EBMAS's) tapes, especially the embarrasing ones with me on them (esp. the one with me doing the world's *worst* shoot/tackle, balding and pudgy with a ponytail, truly horrific, hopeful off the market soon).

Later,

Andrew

[SAAMAG]

I remember reading about all the BS politics when Emin and LT split. I heard it had a lot to do with KK more then anything else and the underlying reason was money (in addition to certain individuals fighting abilities vs. others)

Regardless of why everything happened...I think the reason the younger ones went with Emin is because plain and simple they wanted to be able to fight and Emin could give that to them. Apparently in the LT line a lot of people were not up to the standard that Emin was and he was trying to change that, he wanted everyone to be able to represent wing chun in the manner that it was known for. From what I understand...prior to Emin's leadership a lot of people were pretty lazy. But then that's just something I've read as of recent...and I have no first hand knowledge of it. Feel free to correct me if I've heard wrong.

Andrew, I will let Nico know you gave him your regards. What's your full name and affiliation with him so that I can tell his should he have no idea who Im talking about?

[sihing]

Originally posted by AndrewS
James,

there may be a difference in philosophy, there may be a difference in understanding. I've spent a good bit of time with sifu Emin and with a number of his senior students (several 4tg guys). I think what you are seeing is him working loose, letting his partner's force go where it will, rather than capitalizing on every mistake instantly, for purposes of teaching and demonstration.

Sifu Emin is definitely a moving target- his approach keeps growing, and the stuff on 'RWSD' is from over 8 years ago. Not only has he improved and changed personally; he's been forced to re-examine his approach and how to pass it on. It's a continuous and fascinating evolution to watch.

There are some clips from 'Real World Self-Defense' floating around, and it has some nice things on it. The chi sao video is more useful, IMO, though 'RWSD' has a bunch of flashy demos. Frankly, I'm not too happy with any of our (EBMAS's) tapes, especially the embarrasing ones with me on them (esp. the one with me doing the world's *worst* shoot/tackle, balding and pudgy with a ponytail, truly horrific, hopeful off the market soon).

Later,

Andrew

Andrew,
I wasn't trying to show any disrespect to your Sifu, just when clips are out there and people ask about things or are curious I feel sometimes to add my 2 cents worth. I have clips out there too and have add good and bad things said about them, oh well. I respect Sifu Emin for his knowledge and visible skill, otherwise I would not collect some of his material. I'm sure he has continued in his evolution, as every good Martial Artist should.

Oh by the way Andrew, I thought you two were one and the same. Are you the same Andrew that is in the Lat Sao seried 2 to 5 tape also, with the pony tail? You can hear Emin say your name and such so I was always thinking you were him. Cool, now your famous.....

James

[YongChun]

Originally posted by sihing
Ray,
Just a question or two. When Emin defended the kicks from the TKD guy, was it predetermined what kick he was defending? And did you video the event? lol.

In Emin's Real Self Defense tape, the two arm Chi-sao didn't look very good from him, his students looked better, so maybe he improved it since then. In the Wing Tsun highlight tapes from the London Event in 99' there was lots of random shots of Emin doing Chi-sao with all kinds of people, most of them allot smaller than him I must say. His Chi-sao looked better there, but all he really was doing in my eyes was attacking first and being more proactive, which to me means he has good forward intention, a good thing. It would have been nice to see him chi-sao with Kernspect or Guiterrez, someone on his level. I also have his Chi-sao tape and again his partner was much smaller than him, and the same things happened there too. Not too say that his chi-sao is bad or anything, I'm sure he put the hours in, but there are still some holes in the armor IMO. The Poon Sao was way to loose and the circle was too big, the hands did not stay in tan/fok formation which can be taken advantage of.


James

Emin told the Hapkido guy to do any kind of kick and then shut him down. I guess all kicks start with the same almost invisible tell tale signs that he picked up on and shut the kicker down before the kick even became distinguishable.

Emin did have those defects on his chi sau tapes that chi sau specialists will notice right away. However it's hard to take advantage of the holes because of his attributes unless you are at the same level as him. When he was here he also displayed a tighter version of chi sau which didn't use the flying elbows, chain punching and bigger circles that he uses on those demo and instructional tapes. Also he adapts very fast to different kinds of opponents.

It's not easy top judge Emin unless you play with him. I think his stuff is better than Kernspechts but then again I have never met Kernspecht. But we can all have opinions nevertheless.

Ray

[iblis73]

Andrew is 100 percent dead on in saying that emn has changed. I started my first foray into wt in late 92 and 93.....emin was quite aggressive back then and really laid the smack down at his seminars. Boy those were scorchers!

I agree with van-most of the younger guys were aggressive and just wanted to learn to fight. Hell they barely knew LT (I only went to 2 seminars with him.) Honestly, of all the instructors that stayed with LT only Parker impressed me. To this day he keeps in shape.....the same cant be said of some of the other higher ups in LTs organization.

If I had to go back to wt/wc I'd definately go with ebmas. I could care less if emin was 100% in the wrong re:the split. All that really matters is the level of wt and the level of instruction.
One of these days I may wander into nicos school and get back with it. But for me wt hasnt been a very successfull endeavor, regardless of who is teaching.

[SAAMAG]

Iblis, are you no longer training in wing chun/tsun/tzun? ( I don't understand why people always have to spell it different..)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Iblis, are you no longer training in wing chun/tsun/tzun? ( I don't understand why people always have to spell it different..)
1- Romanization is not an exact science
2- Marketing - i.e. Trademarks

[SAAMAG]

I know....that was rhetorical. But thanks. :D

[iblis73]

No, in fact I'm not training anything right now....and I feel like crap. I'm driving to austin everyday for a job I f--ing hate and it is, I think literally, killing me. There are some great bjj/mma instructors I want to train with....will likely start with Ray Parra and his jkd crew soon. The training is good and fairly laid back, I'll see how it goes.

I'm not really into "arts" anymore and as much as I like wt/wc/vt/etc. its still an art with all its trappings and heirarchies. I used to teach wt at parkers along with shane valero,rob friedrich,wayne martin and glen tillman. I think only tillman is still there. I've always thought nico to be a top notch person, wt beside the point.

I've also talked to or visited most of the other guys in town-phet (actually trained for a month there), david de la vega,sanchez,leal,ray over at vasquez academy and jaimie miller.

[SAAMAG]

Phet too huh? He's a good friend of mine. I met him when I was studying shaolin gung fu and bought supplies from his store many years ago, we got to talking and then I starting training with him in Muay thai. Then I went in the air force and have seen gotten back out....with a broken wrist. But it's healing slowly. Phet wants me to come back and train with him to help him teach and fight for him again...but I think I may let the 18-20 year olds have their glory now. Especially considering that things are starting to break now. (I'd imagine crashing my sportbike didn't help either.)

I haven't told Phet yet that Im going to go back to wing chun. He doesn't speak too highly of it's effectiveness. It's funny because he says it's a good art, but then he says in the same sentence that it doesn't work. We always have guys coming in from Will Parker's school to challenge our thai fighters. Everytime that happens, the wing chun guy gets his butt handed to him and then gets embarrassed and walks out in shame. I keep telling Phet it's because the people coming in are not of high caliber wing chun, but the last one actually fought one of the girls in the class....and lost. Ouch. So maybe I will be the one to save wing chun's honor in that school. (honestly most of the guys don't care...they just love to fight...doesnt matter who)

Anyway, Phet is good guy. I will probably train there every so often just to spar with the younger fellas who are there. One guy in particular needs a reality check. I told him that there is always someone better out there, and reminded him there are people like me that are still relatively young and have been training longer then he has been alive. This particular fella hasn't met his match yet though...which is good...but at the same time bad for his attitude.

[iblis73]

LOL, man thats sad about the wt guys getting laid out.....but hey, thats one of the reasons I left wt to begin with. Some of phets guys are definately ****y, but then again theyre the only muay thai school in town. After visiting the schools in austin i'm really let down by the level of the san antonio schools.

I've talked to the modern combatives guy, d.de la vega.....i keep saying i'm gonna get out to his school. He trained with parker and leal for some time and probably has decent wt skills. He is going more towards vunaks stuff if I'm correct. Hes cheap and it sounds like some decent training informal style training.

Parker is definately very ****y. He has good skill but hes never been able to build up a strong cadre of students......they keep leaving. It looks like right now he has a decent sized group but I can't vouch for their skill level as I havent been back there since '00.

Its pathetic the lack of good schools we have in SA imho. Its a big city and theres plenty of room for at least a good half dozen schools that teach mma,bjj or jkd. Theres sumpin about this place, lol........

[AndrewS]

Van,

tell Nico Dr. Andrew from LA says hello. He'll know who I am. If 'LA' and 'MD' don't prompt his memory, try 'bald' and 'tattooed'. (I swear, shaving my head did more good for my address book. Much better look.)

And oh yeah, to hell with the politics.

James,

yeah, I that's me. I've seen those tapes like once a few years ago, and cringe at the very thought of them. That and I have flashbacks to the head trauma from the antigrappling tape.

Ray,

if by 'attributes' you include sensitivity, that's fair. I've had sifu extend his arm out off to the side, touched the inside of his wrist and been asked to hit him as hard and fast as I could. He stuck and diffused me like a ghost from a completely broken position- proving a point he was making about feeling.

Incidentally, rolling with Leung Ting, you'll sometimes see a similar 'loose' appearance.

Iblis,

Ya gotta go with what works for you and what you love. Robert Puig does have an EBMAS group going in Austin, if you're down that way regularly and are interested, though.

Later,

Andrew

[SAAMAG]

Will do Doc. Im sure he will know you, but I just didn't want to seem like an idiot when he asked "...who?"

The politics don't really concern me, my only prerequisites in a training group are a good, down to earth sifu, and an organization that is more concerned with proper training and skills rather then making money off people with no regard to if they would actually be able to perform. Not too much to ask in my opinion.

I look forward to see what Nico can do to improve my wing chun, which he had already done within few minutes of our last meeting. One thing you might know that I did not get an answer to, EBMAS is lineaged to LT obviously, but is the entire system available through Sifu Emin? IF Nico doesn't know the entire system, I know that when Emin comes down it can be passed on should that be the case. My concern is not so much time (although I don't want to be training for years on SLT considering I already have been training in WC for years...) but rather I don't want to have to go somewhere else AGAIN to finish my curriculum.

[iblis73]

I can't speak for Nico, but if hes only a 1tg he probably doesnt know the entire system. I wouldnt worry about that though. In ebmas they have student grades.....you wont learn biu jee or, wooden dummy or some of the higher level chi sao until your a 1 tg yourself, which could be 4+ years of training. The thing is you won't care-the first few years are all about building basic skill,conditioning and aggressiveness. I can tell you that if you stick with ebmas you will be able to learn all or most of the system from emin eventually. It WILL take longer-but your basics will likely be much better than others who dont take the time. Trust me on this-if you meet some of the higher ups in his organization you will not be disapointed. Hey, youve seen their training. Its not soft or weak and is very focused.

Andrew, thnx for mentioning puig, i remember working with him in the 90s at seminars. I dunno if I wanna return to wt at all, didnt fit me too well........but we'll see. That and I may be joining the army soon. I know robert had some problems with webb in the past and is much happier now.

Hey, I wanted to give a link to a great website (non wt) that has some excellent articles........it really meshes with my own take on martial arts......

http://austinjiujitsu.com/budo/
look for the articles........Dave has articulated some of the issues I've had with TMA in the past.

[AndrewS]

Hey Van,

I think Nico is 2nd TG now- he at least has the material through 2nd Tg- the sections and Biu Tze. On that schedule he should be through chi gherk, Biu Tze chi sao, and the dummy within another 3-4 years, and working on the long pole.

The present time-line (from sifu Emin) for a student to finish the empty hand portion of the curriculum is 8-10 years. Nico should be able to take you through that. You can build on what you know from before, but learning in this system means knowing the curriculum and being able to apply it.

Sifu knows the knives and long pole- some basic long pole exercises (the punches) are being taught as conditioning for beginners now. I suspect we'll see some long pole exercises coming at some point- but I could be wrong on that.

A recommendation- start escrima as soon as possible, then run, do not walk, to meet Mr. Latosa every chance you can. It will make everything better.

Iblis,

Robert's a good guy- we've been corresponding since I started WT back in '94, and he's happily back training now that he no longer has to deal with local politics.

It's kinda amazing- with a few exceptions the split did EBMAS more good than harm. Many of the AWTO's personality issues and attitude problems departed, leaving a core of younger, hungier, and more mellow guys.

Later,

Andrew

[YongChun]

Originally posted by iblis73
I can't speak for Nico, but if hes only a 1tg he probably doesnt know the entire system. I wouldnt worry about that though. In ebmas they have student grades.....you wont learn biu jee or, wooden dummy or some of the higher level chi sao until your a 1 tg yourself, which could be 4+ years of training.

I would say forget about wondering when you will learn the dummy, Bill Jee, Pole, knife. Those things aren't that important. The basic skills are what Emin will teach in the first year or two. You can learn all the forms in a weekend from anyone but the hard training and drilling with partners can't be learned so easily. The main stuff is in the first form and then some footwork, then drills and sparring and dealing with realistic attacks.

Ray

[SAAMAG]

Like I said, my concern isn't so much the timeline, but the availability of the curriculum in it's entirety. I don't want to have to change styles again or change schools just to finish.

I plan on studying wing chun and muay thai from this point on. No more shaolin. The training is what Im into, not so much the end result. The path is more important then the destination.

[iblis73]

WT and MT are a nice combination.......if you ever get to the Austin area look up Ray Parra at Academy of Martial Arts or Rodney Solis at KO Sport. Both have really good muay thai. Vasquez academy in south austin has some good kickboxing and terrific boxing as well (very active in competition.) I think of of the guys at Vasquez is headed to K-1??? I could be wrong on that.

The various politics, attitudes and egos in the wt family are legion! But then again with that many folks your bound to find that. Its interesting to me mostly because psychology and politics are things that I love to study, but as a student or instructor it sucks big time. I will say this: the wt groups have some of the BEST organization in the martial arts world! The student ranks, skills sections and passports are wonderful as is the marketing. I've yet to meet any group that is quite as well organized or as modular.

I think that the american section of the LT org needs a shakeup. EBMAS is growing like a weed all over the world and here in the usa.

[sihing]

Originally posted by YongChun
I would say forget about wondering when you will learn the dummy, Bill Jee, Pole, knife. Those things aren't that important. The basic skills are what Emin will teach in the first year or two. You can learn all the forms in a weekend from anyone but the hard training and drilling with partners can't be learned so easily. The main stuff is in the first form and then some footwork, then drills and sparring and dealing with realistic attacks.

Ray

I don't necessarily agree with some of your statements here Ray. In our curriculum(Level system, 1 to 10 with 10 being full instructor/Sifu status with weapons and everything, 8yrs presently), one would learn the SLT/ADV SLT thru to level 3, then at level 4 start on the dummy training & Chum Kiu. Allot of learning the basics from my experience is like you said, with partner drills, but also solo practice, and unless your kwoon is open all day 7 days a week, you would have to practice the form, drills solo first to perfect the movements of those things and then you can apply them better with a partner and not have to think about actually performing the movements correctly. I think the wooden dummy helps allot here at the earlier stages, as you can start to practice the basic movements solo with some resistance.

Knowing all the movements in the forms and Learning them are to different things in my book. My forms have been tweaked a couple of times since I got the instructors certificate and that was 8yrs ago, so to say that it is as easy as pie is miss-stating things a little bit IMO.

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by AndrewS
.

James,

yeah, I that's me. I've seen those tapes like once a few years ago, and cringe at the very thought of them. That and I have flashbacks to the head trauma from the antigrappling tape.

Ray,
if by 'attributes' you include sensitivity, that's fair. I've had sifu extend his arm out off to the side, touched the inside of his wrist and been asked to hit him as hard and fast as I could. He stuck and diffused me like a ghost from a completely broken position- proving a point he was making about feeling.

Incidentally, rolling with Leung Ting, you'll sometimes see a similar 'loose' appearance.

Later,

Andrew

I think I saw that exhibition on one of those WT highlights tapes from London 99' but it wasn't Emin doing it, some other high level German instructor. He had a kid touch his hand and then when he moved he counter first with a punch to the face, demonstrating the forward Intention principal I believe.

I am getting a copy sent soon of the grappling tape, so I will look out for that head trauma you are talking about Andrew, lol. By the way Andrew do the tapes that Emin has out, are they pretty basic stuff as compared to what you learn in person?

I will have to visit and see Emin myself in person the next time he comes to Calgary for a seminar. One of my students from back home goes to LA once a year and he visited with Emin twice and was treated very well and was even invited to train with them while he was there even though he wasn't a student, so that is okay in my book for hospitality. I consider myself an open-minded person and I would appreciate any opportunity to meet and greet with other WC instructors and Masters of course.


James

[AndrewS]

Hey James,

The most serious head trauma didn't make it on the tape. I was told to go in, pass guard, and ground and pound on my si-sok Jannis, who I outweight by about a hundred pounds. No luck passing and my head was cloudy for the next week- as bad as the first time I got thrown to a pro boxer as fresh meat back in my karate days.

As far as the tapes go- I wouldn't say that they're basic, just that it's easy to miss the important stuff in terms of technical details and method of training. A lot of the skills required to pull things off involve breaking a mechanic down and working it for a few months- isolating problem pieces, etc.

In general, I find people miss the important stuff even with the best teachers who put everything out there for you to hear, and then do their best to guide you. Unfortunate.

Catch him in person some time- it's worth it.

Van,

good luck. My training partner Pere and I were taking about making a run to San Antonio to hang with Nico and his guys sometime, so I may catch you. Failing that, the Alaska summer camp should be good next year.

Later,

Andrew

[sihing]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hey James,

The most serious head trauma didn't make it on the tape. I was told to go in, pass guard, and ground and pound on my si-sok Jannis, who I outweight by about a hundred pounds. No luck passing and my head was cloudy for the next week- as bad as the first time I got thrown to a pro boxer as fresh meat back in my karate days.

As far as the tapes go- I wouldn't say that they're basic, just that it's easy to miss the important stuff in terms of technical details and method of training. A lot of the skills required to pull things off involve breaking a mechanic down and working it for a few months- isolating problem pieces, etc.

In general, I find people miss the important stuff even with the best teachers who put everything out there for you to hear, and then do their best to guide you. Unfortunate.

Catch him in person some time- it's worth it.

Andrew

I agree, as a teacher myself I have noticed allot of repeating myself over the years, lol. You could give away all the "secrets" and people still wouldn't know it.

I agree too with isolating things and working on that for a while also. Everyone learns things a little differently so as a teacher you have to adapt to each person on their level, sorta like fighting ah.

Yes I will have to check out the seminar the next time he is in town for sure.

James